Suggestion:20080209 FAK Overhaul

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20080209 FAK Overhaul

Funt Solo ^QT 16:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion type
Item alteration

Suggestion scope
FAK effects.

Suggestion description
Alter FAK's healing power according to this table:

Survivor Status	HP healed	Unpowered	Ransacked	Ruined	Outdoor	Infection
Any	5	n/a	n/a	n/a	n/a	-5
With First Aid	+5	-1	-1	-2	-2	n/a
With Surgery in a hospital	+5	nullified	-1	-2	n/a	n/a

Explanation:

• The FAK, when used on a non-infected survivor, always heals at least 5HP.
  • When used on an infected survivor, it does not heal those 5HP, but instead only cures the infection.
• With First Aid, a maximum bonus of 5HP can be added to the base.
  • Penalties to the 5HP bonus apply as given in the table.
• With Surgery, in a hospital, a further maximum bonus of 5HP can be added to the base.
  • Penalties apply as given, with no power indicating nullification of the bonus.
  • It is not possible to receive a negative bonus.

Examples:

• In a powered hospital, a survivor with Surgery will heal 15HP as long as the patient is not infected and the hospital is not ransacked or ruined.
  • If the survivor was infected, the infection would be cured but only 10HP would be healed.
  • If the survivor was not infected, but the hospital was ransacked, only 13HP would be healed. Ransacking loses the surgeon 1HP from the First Aid bonus, and 1HP from the Surgery bonus.
  • If the survivor was not infected, but the hospital was ruined, only 11HP would be healed. The ruin loses the surgeon 2HP from the First Aid bonus, and 2HP from the Surgery bonus. (Ruin and Ransack do not stack.)
• Outdoors, the maximum possible cure is 8HP.

Reasons for change:

• Gameplay:
  • Infection is weak.
  • Ruins are weak.
  • FAKs are overpowered.
• Roleplay:
  • if your hospital's in a state of ruin, it shouldn't be as easy to heal people.
  • if your safehouse has no lights, it isn't as easy to treat people.
  • Outdoors, it isn't as easy to treat people.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Auteur --Funt Solo ^QT 16:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
2. Keep - I like the basis of the idea it's well reasoned and makes FAKS actually interesting for once without really effecting the numbers involved in any real way(First Aid means that you'll heal an infectious bite to full with 1 FAK still). --Karek^maps?! 17:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
3. Shouldn't thes be your chart?--Pesatyel 19:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

   Table moved to talk because it was breaking the numbering. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 20:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

4. Keep - Not the way to fix ruin, but an intriguing prospect nonetheless. -Druuuuu ^OcTRR 19:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
5. Keep/Change - Infection and Ruins are definitely weak, I don't know what Axe Hack is talking about. Midianian makes a good point thought, I like his idea a lot. Yet another great suggestion from Funty... --/~Rakuen~\^Talk I Still Love Grim 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

   Re - Sorry to re so much, but to clarify: each row of the table is added together for a result. The -1HP loss in unpowered buildings always effects the potential 5HP bonus from First Aid. Surgery doesn't nullify it - what that means is that if the hospital is unpowered, then there's no additional 5HP bonus from Surgery (which is part of the current rules). --Funt Solo ^QT 20:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

6. Keep - i like it a lot --~~~~ [talk] 20:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
7. Weak Keep - Bah, it's only outside. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 20:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
8. Keep - Makes sense to me. --The Hierophant 21:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
9. Keep - Why not? -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 21:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
10. Keepish - Meh, it's ok. It makes sense though, that you'd probably need one FAK to stop someone's infecion, and another to heal them. And as AHLG said: Bah, it's only outside. --Hhal 23:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
11. Keep - The chart is confusing, but the idea behind it is realistic and makes gameplay more dynamic. --Pgunn 23:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Incidentally, Howard's idea (below) would be a very nice addition, but I guess it's too late to add it in, sadly --Pgunn 20:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
12. Keepish - A bit complicated, but needed and logical. Plus all the kill reasoning is rather lame. --BoboTalkClown 00:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
13. Keep, but - also remove surgery benefits from when you heal yourself. --Howard Bentley 02:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
14. Keep - I would prefer a buff, but this makes sense too. --Heretic144 05:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
15. Keep - Makes sense, unfortunately.--Seventythree^Talk 11:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
16. Keep - Good idea. People who don't think ruin and infection are weak are not thinking hard enough. - Grant (talk) 06:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
17. Keep - The guy above me is right.--Jamie Cantwell3 08:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
18. Keep - Zombies need something. --The Gecko PKer 15:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
19. Keep - Yup. Curing Infection ought to be a seperate action. Infection is strong only against the unprepared (I chased some poor infected nooblet to his death recently, it was mucho fun); against the good boy scout it's almost meaningless. Whether FAKs themselves are overpowered is debatable... what is true is that their search rates are absurdly high... Oh... and I heal peeps in open and ransacked buildings frequently. Try leaving the green suburbs and you'll see what I am talking about. --WanYao 15:50, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Kill Votes
Weak Kill/Change - I'm pretty sure FAKs are supposed to be overpowered. And I'm not quite sure how ruined or outside buildings would make it less effective to heal.--  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 16:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Re - well, if it's ruined, it's more difficult to keep things sterile, and to keep patients stable. Same with outside. That's my roleplay reasoning, anyway. Not sure what you mean by "supposed to be overpowered". If you agree they're overpowered, then you're agreeing that a change is needed. --Funt Solo ^QT 17:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

If it's been the game for (2?) years, than I'm sure it's supposed to be as is, as overpowered as it currently is. It's not a horrendous game imbalance or anything, in my opinion its the equivalent to "death" as a zombie. Death is a joke when I'm a zombie. As for ruined buildings, that makes sense, dusty air, loose debris, blood all around, but ransacked and outside is silly. You don't need a perfect environment to administer first aid, although you do for surgery (but that's only possible in powered hospitals, anways). --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 20:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

1. Ruins and Infection are not weak. In my opinion, they're all overpowered. And that includes FAKs. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 17:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
2. Kill - Dude, it's a zombie game, not a military-grade zombie simulation. You want realism? When you die you can never play again. Ever. And you don't come back as a zombie, you're just dead. Really, infection isn't "weak", it's an added danger that survivors have to prepare for. You break into a safehouse with 48AP, with teeth at 30%, you could infect an average of 14-15 people if you only use bite and bite them one time each. That's not factoring in the 56-60 damage you spread over all those survivors that normally they wouldn't bother healing as it would be the waste of a FAK to heal oneself for 4 HP when you can normally get 5, 10, or even 15 HP out of a first aid kit. If you do nothing but claws at 50% (note I'm not throwing in tangling grasp in either figure) with 48 AP you can get an average of 72 HP drained, which is the death of one full health surviver and the injury of another. So, if just *one* of those people dies from infection and the rest are wasting kits, you're at the very least equal to using claws. If *two* out of those 14-15 people die, then bites are already at an advantage over claws. Or, if just a few have to spend AP/lose health searching for kits you're doing pretty good, too. Plus you're getting life back every time you bite, making it harder for harmanz to kill you and throw you out. How the *&%$ much do you want from bite?!

   "if your safehouse has no lights, it isn't as easy to treat people." <- That's already an in game mechanic. If the hospital isn't powered, you don't get the surgery bonus.

   "Ruins are weak." <-whether they are or not, I don't think weakening FAKs inside of them is the way to go about fixing them.

   "Infection is weak." <- No, it's a pretty powerful HP/FAK drain. Something doesn't have to be an autokill to be powerful. Next we'll have people saying destroying generators is weak because everyone in the building doesn't instantly die. *rolleyes*

   In summary, I don't like this suggestion, and the premise behind it being "needed" is baloney. The one interesting idea, having something that cures infection, but doesn't give health, you might be able to do something with in a radically different form (ie, a new item), but taking health-healing away from FAKs just sucks. --Ms.Panes 19:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

   Re - You had me at Kill. (But you do win the longest vote ever award.) I will say this, having read your opus. I play exclusively as a survivor, four characters, and have done for years now, so I'm not coming at this from a zed perspective at all. Infection bothers me about as much as a fly swat, though. And that's factoring in the AP spent finding FAKs. Note, I'm not suggesting a FAK shouldn't heal infection - and in most cases it'll still heal infection and 5HP. That's still very powerful. --Funt Solo ^QT 20:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

3. Kill - I dunno, i mean, it doesnt really make sense, Its a first aid kit, not surgery tools, a stitching needle and some string. a first aid kit is made for quick, whenever wherever fixing of a wound. if you have an infected cut, you clean off the infection and wrap it with gauze. and all that stuff is in one first aid kit. if youre outside and you have a cut, someone takes out a first aid kit, you sit or lay down, and they apply pressure and soak up blood then wrap it. the training skills mean, if youve been to a first aid class, you know much better how to deal with a wound, and if youre a doctor who knows how to perform surgery, you know even better how to deal with a wound. i dont see how being outside or having an infection would mess with a first aid kit. i mean, its a kit for dealing with wounds, not a strip of gauze. "you clean the wound of its infection with gauze" then for another AP and another strip of gauze "you stop the bleeding and wrap the cut with gauze" but gauze isnt in UD is it?--DewarP 20:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
4. Kill/Change - Too complicated. I'd rather take just a plain 5 HP penalty when healing an infection. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 20:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
5. Kill - I like neither the idea nor the explanation behind it. --Pdeq^Talk* 21:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
6. Kill - Interesting, but I don't really like it.-Studoku 21:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
7. Kill - as Midianan--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 23:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
8. Kill - Cool, yet unbalanced. --Ciaran Deckardson 01:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
9. Kill - Don't get me wrong, your suggestion is excellent, but I am voting kill for the following reasons: 1) FAK's have been around for at least two years now, with little to no issues game-wise. 2) From my perspective, ruin and infection are not weak, given that in the past couple of weeks alone myself and my comrades have died more than once from infection. Ruin likewise is not weak, as not everyone in my suburb can afford to carry a toolbox, because they're too busy healing infectees. Furthermore, the new addition of getting hurt from free running into a ruined building has strenghtened the ruin skill. --Private Mark 01:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
10. Kill - Same as DewarP, I think that a first aid kit, with the flavor text talking about getting supplies together, would be able to perform a few different operations instead of one. The related skills are like being trained in First-Aid. Curtis Rivers 04:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
11. Kill I don't see the point of creating penalties for healing in ransacked or ruined buildings. Those buildings were emptied of survivors. There's no one there to heal. And why go there to heal yourself? --Jon Pyre 04:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

    Re - if you think it'll have no effect, then why vote against it? --Funt Solo ^QT 10:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

12. Kill - I disagree with you about FAKs being overpowered and infection/ruin being weak. Zombies don't need continual buffs (or survivor nerfs) to make their side stronger. They just need to play smarter. What was the last survivor buff? Clothes? Toolboxes? --Uncle Bill 05:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
13. Kill - As Midian.  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  07:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)\
14. Kill/Change - As Midianian as well. I'd surely support you if you bring that up on your next suggestion. --Aeon17x 08:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
15. Grim! As mid but another thought i was soon to suggest, infection can't be cured without first aid. Basically K.I.S.S. - Pardus 10:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
16. Kill How is infection weak? If you don't have an FAK, or anyone around with an FAK, your probably going to die, or at least be close to death. There are no problems with FAKs, therefore, there is no need to make them weaker. Ruin is extremely annoying, and there is no need to heal in a ruined building. This game IS NOT based on realism, so you don't need to make FAKs realistic. Interesting idea, though. --Toastrlord^{T TSA} 17:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
17. Kill - I disagree about the balance issues. Also, Surgery already sucks ass as a skill. It doesn't need to suck more conditionally. It's about as conditional as skills in this game get, and is in the running for Most Useless Skill Ever. --Diano 20:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
18. Kill - It's too complicated for me. Imagine trying to explain FAKs to somebody if this was implemented. --Toejam 11:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
19. Kill - FAKs are fine as is, biting as a zombie to infect a survivor is just plane fun. Rocky Ford 23:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
20. Kill Too many senseless restrictions. And Ruin really isn't underpowered... ~A`Blue`Jelly^TME*V*I*L*_? 00:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
21. Kill - Hell no. Wiping out survivors from the game is not funny.--Kolechovski 00:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
22. Kill - In agreement with the former statement. Why do you people insist on making the game impossible to play for a survivor??? The FAK system in place now is perfect. Stop trying to eliminate survivors from the game. Then it becomes less fun for everybody.--Dr Doom86 07:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
23. Kill - Ruin is not weak, infection is not weak and FAKs are not overpowered. Infection is designed to waste FAKs, not kill people. --Anotherpongo 14:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
24. Kill - This game is fun because it is simple yet fun. Do you want to make my shotguns get stuck periodically? Wait, I got it. When I freerun too quick, I can die from exhaustion. Maybe I need to rest for 5 minutes before querying the server again. What about dehydration? Damn, I'll have to go loot a coke from the grocery store. Maybe you wanna make it so I have to take cyallis to get to sleep. Ioncannon11 07:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

    Kill - FAKS are fine, if it aint' broke don't fix it. DR Invalid sig: vote struck. --Funt Solo ^QT 10:04, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

    Kill - Wow, it looks like people really hate this a lot! So no doubt all my concerns will be handled just fine. As above. --Vandurn 13:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC) -- After deadline. -- Cheese 16:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

    Kill - Overcomplicating a simple and fun game. --Carnexhat 07:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC) After deadline. -- Cheese 16:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Spam/Dupe Votes