Suggestion talk:20080216 Zombie Window Attack, and Window Barricading

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Zombie Window Attack, and Window Barricading

Timestamp:	LumiReaver 17:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Type:	New Zombie Attack?
Scope:	Attacking Zombies, top of the stack survivors, and maybe free runners
Description:	~New changes in bold. --LumiReaver 16:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)~ Window Barricades: Windows are barricaded separately from the main building. Window Status: Open: Zombies can stick their grimy mits in and attack you. Shut: Works like a door, you need memories of life to open it. Loosely: Level one. Lightly : Levels two, three, and four. Quite Strongly: Levels five, and six. (And possibly higher.) Zombie Attacks: Zombies outside a building can claw attack, and feeding drag through windows unless they are shut, or barricaded. Attack percentages lowered by 5%. Zombies attacking through windows do not see inside, and they can only attack the survivor/zombie on the top of the stack. Zombies are only attacked by window zombies if there are no survivors in the building. Zombies cannot preform bite attacks through the window. To attack through a window a zombie needs only to select "through window" under the attack targets drop down. Zombies have a 5% chance of taking 1 point of damage because of broken window glass. Attacking through a window costs double AP, and has an invisible accuracy penalty. 1 survivor/s in building: 30% penalty 2 survivor/s in building: 25% penalty 3 survivor/s in building: 20% penalty 4 survivor/s in building: 15% penalty 5 survivor/s in building: 10% penalty 6+ survivor/s in building: 5% penalty A survivor can be automatically dragged through a window if the following conditions are met: The survivor being attacked has less than 12 HP. The attacking zombie has the feeding drag skill. No survivor (Other than the victim) in the building has preformed an action in the past twelve hours. (Rationale: If a survivor has moved recently they would help you before the zombie pulls you out.) Things To Note: Extremely heavily barricaded buildings with heavily barricaded windows negate free running. Theaters, and Towers don't have windows.

Discussion (Zombie Window Attack, and Window Barricading)

I like the fact you can claw other zombies. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

No need for the bit about free running; we needn't add a survivor nerf to a zombie buff. That said, I like the idea. if it passes voting, however, I think it'd something good to implement if zombies need help again (meaning not soon)--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 21:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Meh, logic has me changing this to a kill. Survivors would logically be able to shoot outside if this were implemented, which isn't a very popular idea--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 03:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Why would survivors need to shoot out through windows, anyway. That would just attract attention, which isn't something survivors should want... Which just gave me an idea. Gun noise could be audible... That might nerf guns slightly, though. Not that that's a bad thing. <_< --LumiReaver 16:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a novel idea, but I don't like the flavor. BoboTalkClown 22:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh wait, it's like shooting out of windows but for zombies. Weak Kill. BoboTalkClown 03:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Towers shouldn't also need window barricades, they're too high for the zeds to reach). Also I think there should be a certain number of survivors before zombies can window attack (reason: overcrowding, some people are therefore forced to stay by the window instead of in the middle of the building, otherwise this is overpowered since the zombies can just snipe them from outside. --Aeon17x 23:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, good ideas. I'm kind of curious. What do you think about malls. Should they be window attackable, or not? The extra AP cost I added makes it less of a siege weapon because that extra AP could be spent tearing down 'cades and ruining the day for the guys inside. But still, I'd feel better asking someone else about it. --LumiReaver 16:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd vote keep if I wasn't worried that all sieges would be fought through windows. Amend to what Aeon said and you'll get my keep vote. - W 23:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Zombie and Survivor stacks are seperate and Survivors are always placed above zombies in the stack(Contacts shows this). Get rid of the free running thing, it's a really bad idea and a tad overpowered. Don't change the vernacular even if they are cades in a different place, or make them max at QSB instead of HB. And, all in all, I'd say this is pretty useless to anyone and is just an AP waster for everyone.--Karek^maps?! 23:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

<_<I had to look up vernacular 'cause I couldn't figure out what it meant, even in context. (Which in hind sight makes it kind of obvious) ...Yeah, I agree it makes things confusing. Amended. --LumiReaver 16:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh. Sorry.--Karek^maps?! 16:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's overpowered. I would say it offers an interesting choice to zombies (interesting choices being a primary characteristic of good games): Do I want to spend more AP trying to actually get inside a building (which has obvious benefits under the new 'cading rules) or less AP just trying to hurt people? If executed properly, this could really help out lowbie zeds without affecting game balance too much. That's what I'd like to see: a setup where if you're trying to actually destroy a safehouse or resource building attacking the door-cades would still be the better option, but if you just want to do some damage (like a lowbie looking for XP), then attacking through a window would work better for you than attacking other zeds.

I would suggest that bite attacks be prohibited (this may have been your intention, but it might be a good idea to add a sentence explicitly stating that) for two reasons: from a game balance perspective it's a bit overpowered if zeds can infect humans from outside and from a flavor perspective no survivor is ever going to get within biting range of an open window.

I'm also curious how Feeding Drag is supposed to work if zeds can't see inside? How will they know a survivor is low enough on HP to be dragged? It might be a good idea to just drop this aspect for balance reasons (though I do think it's perfectly in-genre).--Mister Nathan Marbles 23:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

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Spamlicious Maximus - So, a zombie can claw me through a window - even if I'm hiding in a toilet cubicle on the 13th floor? And, even assuming I am standing near a window on the ground floor, the zombie can claw at me, but I can't shoot at it, or see it? Plus, you seem to be assuming that the current barricade mechanics don't include windows, which I assume they do. Oh, and it's partial X-Ray Vision - otherwise how would you know there was anyone to attack? --Funt Solo ^QT 14:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re - Interesting points. I agree that it's a bit illogical, and unrealistic for a zombie to claw through a window and hit you. It's also illogical and unrealistic for zombies to exist in the first place for mall gun stores to yield unending supplies of ammunition, and for seventy people to fit in an NT buildings lobby. (Not on the 13th floor toilet cubicle, see the game actually says you're standing in the lobby...) ...Anyway, yes, it's illogical, but it's also a game play mechanic. As for the current barricade mechanic, it might include windows, it might not. That doesn't matter. If this were to be implemented, obviously they'd be considered separately from then on. I don't really have solid arguments for your first two points, I guess, but X-Ray vision? I may not have specified this, (which is my fault, I'm sorry if I was unclear) but a zombie can attack through the windows with no target until he's out of AP. He won't be informed that there is no one inside. No X-Ray Vision at all. --LumiReaver 14:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

If the zombie doesn't know there's anyone to attack, it's a potential waste of all their AP. So, this is just a siege tactic, where their AP would be better spent taking down the cades and getting inside. So, it's pointless. --Funt Solo ^QT 14:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re - You're a lone zombie, you've stumbled upon a powered hospital with extremely heavy barricades. Odds are there is someone inside, but there's no way you'll be able to take down the 'cades. Window barricades have less levels to tear down. You can almost guarantee you'll be getting some XP if you take the window route, where otherwise, you maybe be left swaying in front of the front door, waiting to be head-shot. --LumiReaver 14:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Lone zombies deserve it. --Funt Solo ^QT 15:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

He means a zombie that logged in without coordinating through some out of game chat tool, not a zombie standing by itself.--Karek^maps?! 15:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The sarcasm police are on their way to pick you up. And no, that's not what I meant, at all. Zombies have plenty of in-game methods of communication - scent blood and feeding groan being the chief ones. If you're not in a group, and haven't bothered looking for one, then (as a lone zombie) you deserve (and should fully expect) to get picked off. --Funt Solo ^QT 19:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Spam - Pointless, just winds up wasting everyones AP. Oh and this that Doc Crook linked, not written by Kevan, it's written by wiki users, and in that case it's pretty obviously written by a survivor who is trying to put his own personal views into the article, that much is shown pretty blatantly in the additional commentary the author added on the First Siege of Caiger Mall.--Karek^maps?! 14:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re - Everything wastes everyone's AP, and this is not pointless. There are XP rewards associated with taking down 'cades, and dealing damage. If this were implemented, it would allow lower leveled zombies to attack window barricades, and through them for XP. It helps ferals. --LumiReaver 14:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re - Not really, the accuracy penalties are a bit absurd, especially for any zombie that's not maxed in accuracy skills. And even when you are there's a possibility of you attacking at 20% to hit with a maximum of 45%, 55% with Tangling Grasp, which is low enough that you'll lose your grip pretty much every third hit. Oh and the double AP, that right there means that this is completely useless to both Ferals and low level zombies.--Karek^maps?! 15:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re - Do you have any ideas that might remedy the problem? It still gives benefit to those who need it, as far as I can see, and I can't think of any way to make it more effective for lower leveled ferals, than massive hordes. The absurd accuracy penalties serve to protect low leveled survivors hiding in safe houses. Maybe the AP cost could be lowered? --LumiReaver 16:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

You might want to expand your list of buildings w/o windows (that can be attacked through) to include all tall buildings (building, NT building, towers), forts, stadiums, and banks. --Uncle Bill 20:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm totally pulling this suggestion for an overhaul in discussion. Including tall buildings makes sense. --LumiReaver 00:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)