Suggestion talk:20080916 Headshots remove HP, not AP

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From Talk: Suggestions

A Fairer Headshot

Timestamp: Aeon17x 05:16, 15 September 2008 (BST)
Type: Skill change
Scope: Survivors who have the Headshot skill, zombies who receive headshots
Description: How about instead of headshots adding AP to the zombie's stand-up cost, they just stand up with less HP than usual? Like this -
  • Headshot (If the player delivers a killing blow to a zombie, it stands up with 10HP less than its maximum HP.)

In removing the 5AP loss, we'll replace it with how headshotted zombies now start off with 10HP less (e.g. 40HP without body building, 50HP with body building). This should address the following issues:

  • Survivors always complain that zombies have it better in total AP expenditure when standing up even if they Headshot them, since for 6AP they stand up with full HP. Now, by standing up with 10HP less, there's a bigger AP benefit for the survivors since the zombies are already damaged when the battle starts, and therefore easier to kill when evicting them from safehouses.
  • At the same time, zombies won't be so annoyed about headshots now since they get to save their precious AP, at the cost of having lesser staying power within buildings. And it gives some use for Digestion, for those who are picky on having max HP all the time.
  • Another benefit for zombies is that with more AP to spend per day, it gives them more playing time, therefore leading to a better gameplay experience for zombie players.

Some math stuff for those who want solid numbers:

  • Consider this for a moment. With the reworked Headshot, the zombie stands up with a guaranteed 10HP damage, which saves around 3-4AP worth of pistol shots (or 1-2AP of shotgun blasts) not counting the AP needed to search and load them.
    • When it all comes down to it, it's really just like the old Headshot, with the AP costs shifted around from penalizing the zombie (by losing AP) to benefitting the survivor (by saving AP).
  • Incidentally, the status quo is maintained if the zombie chooses to heal the 10HP deficit by digestion -- it'll take them 2-3 bites to recover 10HP, which would cost 5AP or more.

And yeah, that's about it. Summary: instead of losing 5AP, headshotted zombies stand up with 10HP less.

Discussion (A Fairer Headshot)

Your numbers suck. This suggestion sucks harder. Body Building is not a zombie skill. All headshot true zombies will stand up with 40 HP. So, this really takes away 10 HP from all zombies.

But wait, there's another side. Let's talk XP now. You make Ankle Grab worthless (zombies with it basically "lose" 100 XP). You make a zombie HAVE to have Digestion (zombie needs 100 XP to heal* to full health). *well, for the CHANCE (20%) to heal only 4 HP per AP IF they are by a survivor that isn't shooting them making them lose more HP.

So these zombies only have 40 HP and in order to heal properly they need to spend at least 300 XP (Neck Lurch, Digestion, and Tangling Grasp since the base To Hit with a bite is crappy) That's 200XP at the MINIMUM w/o TG but good luck with that - This is to regain 10 HP that they used to be able to gain by standing up. (spending AP which regenerates instead of XP which is a pain to earn).

Survivors can spend 100 XP (which they can earn a fuckton of ways) to get 60 HP. Survivors can heal themselves or be healed by other survivors. Zombies can only stand up or bite things. (oh yeah , FAKs heal 5 HP min. 100% success with no skill needed. Zombies again are spending 300 XP FOR A CHANCE to heal.)

You can't fuck with a zombie's health. Zombies only earn 2 AP with claw attacks (unless they have rend flesh then it is 3 XP) so earning that 300 XP hurts. How is that fair? This really punishes the new zombies. --Globetrotters Icon.png #99 DCC 06:21, 15 September 2008 (BST)

So, when all is said and done... you'd prefer to lose 5AP every time you get headshot instead of 10HP? That's really the only difference between this suggestion and what we already have now.
Not to mention the healing yourself part is, well... optional. A 'true zombie' won't care about their hit point count. And if for some reason you do, you'll get digestion, and if you're in a horde or revive point it's perfectly acceptable to bite your fellows for health.
By the way, how did this suggestion make Ankle Grab 'totally worthless'? Losing 1AP instead of ten sounds like a lot of worth to me.
And lastly, you're saying this suggestion that 'really punishes the new zombies'. Are you kidding me? The current Headshot is way worse than this one for new zombies, 15 AP down the drain every headshot pretty much means 1/3rd of your playtime for the day is gone just by standing up. The best we can do is to at least get rid of that massive AP loss from Headshot (albeit at the cost of dying quicker, but unless you're meatshielding you should only stand up once per day), so they will have more AP to spare and level up quicker and make the whole newbie zombie experience a more tolerable one. --Aeon17x 06:57, 15 September 2008 (BST)
This is really problematic for mall sieges, isn't it? A single zombie spamming ?rise could manage to be a much better meatshield via this tactic, no? One tactic for sieges is to attack until you have 7 AP remaining, so when you die you can stand up again and remain annoying. This would allow zombies to use 5 more AP during a siege or, worse, stand up three times as often. Burning through (3x40HP)+(1x60HP)=180HP is much more difficult than burning through (2x60HP)=120HP. THIS SUGGESTION STRONGLY OVERPOWERS ZOMBIES GIVEN CURRENT TACTICS. -- Galaxy125 07:23, 15 September 2008 (BST)
Survivors should better practice spamming ?dump to counter that then. :P Although I think it depends on how dedicated the meatshielder is -- it won't stop them whether headshot reduces their AP or not (although it helps if it doesn't). Either way I'm not too worried about it; if too many TRPs start falling apart because they can't keep the zombies out anymore then interference is likely to be rebalanced to favor survivors more, especially since zombies would have more AP to spend now. --Aeon17x 07:47, 15 September 2008 (BST)
"Spamming ?rise????" who botherw with that, when you can just look in every 20 minutes or so, stand up if you've been killed and dumped, and walk back into the mall because other zombies are doing the same, keeping the barricades down? Same net result as you say, but "spamming ?rise" has nothing to do with it; don't make it sound like zombie tactics depend on such "spamming". SIM Core Map.png Swiers 07:49, 15 September 2008 (BST)
Personally I don't use such tactics and I don't participate in raids (true dual-nature, go figure), so I apologize for misusing the phrase and misrepresenting the zombie population. However, the point stands that this makes meatshielding far more effective, and (Aeon17x) I was counting the AP required to re-enter the building from the outside in case of a dump. -- Galaxy125 08:53, 15 September 2008 (BST)
Point taken. I'll note that come time when I send this through the suggestions queue. --Aeon17x 10:21, 15 September 2008 (BST)

Funny thing is, on the surface at least, even DCC who I thought plays a zombie full-time, got it wrong. Actually, the trenchcoater was closer to the truth, on the surface. Amazingly... See... zombies don't give a fuck whether they get killed. Because we just STAND UP again. At full health. So, to be honest, I think I'd gladly give up some HP to lose the 6 AP penalty... Because death means little to me, even when it costs 6 AP to stand up again. On the surface...

That being said, this isn't as big a zombie buff as it appears on the surface. Because it makes it WAAAAAY easier to clear buildings. Because, really, regaining HP with Digestion is a totally inefficient process, utterly wasteful of AP. I'd rather get headshot than try to climb from 40 HP to 60 HP via Digestion. So, in the end, DCC is correct. Of course. --WanYao 07:53, 15 September 2008 (BST)

50HP. If you had body building you stand back up with 50HP after a headshot. Just thought I'd clarify that. --Aeon17x 07:55, 15 September 2008 (BST)
I'm not sure where he got the having to climb from 40 to 60 either.--Pesatyel 08:34, 15 September 2008 (BST)

DCC needs to NOT post when he's pissed (or whatever the problem is). I don't think he even understands the suggestion. Body Building may not be a zombie skill but zombies CAN acquire it thus a non-Body Building zombie would stand at 40 and a Body Building zombie would stand at 50. I'm not sure how this makes Ankle Grab "worthless" since normal headshot changes its cost from 1 to 6 while THIS suggestion puts it back down to 1, thus IMPROVING it, relative to headshot. And I don't see how this hurts new zombies MORE than normal headshot does. A level 1 zombie pays FIFTEEN AP to stand while THIS suggestion would drop it BACK DOWN to 10. It isn't like 10 hp loss is cumulative. A non-Body Building zombie would ALWAYS (if headshot) stand at 40 and a Body Building zombie would ALWAYS (if headshot) stand at 50 hp. The ONLY consideration I'd have would be to limit the HP loss for non-Ankle Grab zombies to 5 instead of 10 maybe.--Pesatyel 08:34, 15 September 2008 (BST)

5HP for non-ankle grab zombies? Sounds reasonable, but then someone might comment it might be on the lenient side now. This was actually toned down a lot from what I first had in mind.
  • Headshot results in half total HP less (w/out body building = 25HP, with body building = 30HP) -- just like how survivors stand up with only half HP after a revive, I first thought zombies should get the same penalty with a headshot. Then I realized that zombies do not have a quick way to heal themselves, and that they'll get killed with a fuel can cum flare gun combo in one shot. Too harsh.
  • Headshot results in 20HP less from max (w/out body building = 30HP, with body building = 40HP) -- same as the above, still quite harsh. As WanYao said, the cost is too high to attempt to recover the lost HP, and since there are so many zombie hunters you could probably expect a whole mob to be headshot and have less HP than even a non-body building survivor, drastically reducing their building holding capabilities.
Every now and then I think 10HP is somewhat lenient too, so I just remind myself that more HP loss than that would make it *worse* than the current AP loss from Headshot. --Aeon17x 10:55, 15 September 2008 (BST)

like it... in fact i like it so much i am sure i have voted on it in the past! Check through the dupe pile carefully as I know this has been discussed many many times!--Honestmistake 12:36, 15 September 2008 (BST)

Lisent, i dont read all this answers to this suggestions before post this & even most of times i dont get involve on votations like this, but! the ap damage caused to zed's with headshot is even not enough to make this balanced & you wanna make a removal of HP instead of AP??? are u nuts??? the guys who are suggesting that are all zed's & people who doesnt know how to play zed.

the hp for zed's doesnt count at all, because they can raise up again & again no matter how much times they'll be killed, because of that, the only true effective defence against them is Headshot, who even being the only effective, is unsufficent, & some of u wanna make him remove hp??? ok that be something really stupid (in my opinion at least), because they can raise up again (instead of survivors who must be resurected by one needle) & even if is with less hp (the zed's re-awake), so what! they can raise again & again always, the only way to make the thing Fairer is make headshot remove more turns than right now[...], not too much more, but 2 more??? maybie that makes the things balanced. & the think about buff's?, oh plz... Zed's have the benefit of Body Building too, so stop bother and add some additional turns to the effect of Headshot, because that is the true solution to this problem.Obsdark 22:38, 4 October 2008 (BST)


Current & Voting Discussion

So RP wise, it goes from 'Getting a headshot makes it harder to get up' to 'getting a headshot is a pain in the head'? It kinda makes sense... I just don't like the boosting of the metsheild tactic. The only way to counter this would be to add a (real life) time period between dying and rising up which would never happen - [[User:Zig13|Zig13 - 16/09/2008 at 07:11(BST)

  • RE to WanYao

Of course I've played a zombie. I can tell you that landing a bite in isn't all that hard, all it takes is good timing with the game's PRNG and exploiting how it tends to streak. Not that I expect you to interpret the stats properly, of course.

Anyway, there is some confusion to be had here. You're the only non-keeper who thinks this is a survivor buff, yet you also agreed with me in Talk:Suggestions that HP doesn't matter to a zombie. Can you please clarify how you mix the two beliefs together? --Aeon17x 01:19, 17 September 2008 (BST)

I'd normally not get involved here, but until WanYao shows up maybe I can shed some light on this. The suggestion does a few things.
1. Zombie buff - it removes the 15 AP cost associated with Ankle Grab.
2. Zombie buff - it makes meatshielding far more effective for players who are actively logged in during a siege.
3. Survivor buff - it makes zombies easier to kill by an additional few AP (I don't know the numbers, but WanYao probably has some problem with them).
4. Survivor buff - dumping zombie corpses becomes more likely when you have a few extra AP left from killing them. (A WanYao problem).
So, the question is if these balance out. (Point 2) I'd argue that meatshielding would be exploited by some chracters but largely ignored by the majority, making this suggestion one which tweaks the game poorly for those players who enjoy logging in for five minutes once daily. (Point 1) Moreover, I'd argue that if the non-Ankle Grab penalty is so disgusting, it could be provided for in a separate suggestion without resorting to this. (Point 3) The first survivor buff aspect of this will both increase overall trenchy efficiency and tend to reduce the number of standing zombies in the game. This means that revives will become less common, something which reduces the playability of the game. (Point 4) Finally, survivors will be better able to clear out buildings when they have the extra few AP needed to dump the body.
In essence, I believe that your suggestion will encourage trenchcoatery and meatshielding, both of which aren't the fun aspects of the game.
But to answer your question, I agree that WanYao isn't compensating for the fact that most zombies won't care about using Digestion, as most zombies would recognize that the AP spent getting the additional HP is more than the AP spent by a human removing it. Zombies would concentrate solely on clawing in combat except for infecting survivors with bite. But that's ultimately irrelevant.
As a thought experiment, imagine how the game would be different if zombies had a maximum HP of 20, and a maximum AP of 75. Survivors would have an easy time going around killing zombies. The number of zombie corpses would greatly outnumber the number of standing zombies at all times. Almost all of them will be dumped outside and most buildings would be barricaded against interference. When a solo zombie logged in at a single moment, it would break down a building and do minimal damage to the humans inside. It would then be killed and deposited outside with ease by a single survivor. When a group of zombies logged in at a single moment, they would break down a building and do massive damage to the humans inside. And revives would be almost impossible as a single player (human or zombie) could easily wipe out the zombies stacked at a revive point.
I don't know where I'm going with all this, but have you thought about all these possibilities? -- Galaxy125 03:54, 17 September 2008 (BST)

Another thing. THis is most definately a de-buff for survivors. As both a survivor and a zombie player, you rarely have a survivor wander off mid-attack and you re-log. so 10 less hps knocks off 2-6 ap less in killing a zombie and about 10 in searching for more ammo.(assuming they use full shotguns). and saves zombs 5 ap, because now, I have enough to take down the VSB++ cades in the gatehouse and groan 10 times, and still possibly drag out a survivor before going out. Now, every feral in the area goes 'Gatehouse down? Chhhheeaaaaaargeeee!' and charge that place. now. In addition to the people saying Digestion! digestion! who uses bite for any reason other then infection! infection! one hit on a human is always a bite unless it is baybah zombies. No worries, this suggestion is unsaveable. Padfu-Zomfu 16:31, 18 September 2008 (BST)

As a zombie with infectious bite I will try biting every survivor in a building before going for a kill so the lost HP's will soon roll in if i can get inside... the extra AP this will save me might make that more likely. As a more junior zombie i would think those extra AP will get some extra XP meaning i can buy digestion faster. Both of these will make the game far more fun for most zombies. While it is true that meatshielders might find it a problem I personally only really see live combat during mall sieges where it is much less of an issue because there are multiple zeds pouring in during most break-ins. Trenchies are the only real downside that i consider important as there will be a lot more of em hitting revive lines to earn those easy kill bonus's for little effort but slowing the rate of revives down in the process! --Honestmistake 15:04, 19 September 2008 (BST)

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