Suggestion talk:20090409 NT Ruins Ruin Rotter Revives

From The Urban Dead Wiki

Jump to: navigation, search

Discussion Moved From Voting Section

Not this shit again, combat reviving is a viable way of disposing of zombies.--Thadeous Oakley 20:23, 9 April 2009 (BST)

Besides, we already have to kill rotters normally in any other building. The NT is and should be the exclusive difference.--Thadeous Oakley 20:31, 9 April 2009 (BST)
The suggestion is that rotters (who don't want to be revived) inside ruined NT Buildings would be the exception to that rule. --Stepdown 20:36, 9 April 2009 (BST)
Let's assume maxed out survivors and zombies. The survivor can, on average, dispose of a zombie using 13AP, while the zombie requires an average of 35AP. So you're here, complaining that your guaranteed 10AP backdoor will no longer work after the zombies have gone to all that effort of ruining an NT building. Your character in UD needs to grow a pair. --Roorgh 07:50, 10 April 2009 (BST)
Ah, the only-using-fully-loaded-shotguns argument. With an inventory full of that, you can only manage a little short of three kills (assuming maxed zombies) before running out of ammo. You do realize how long it takes to restock after that? --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 12:20, 10 April 2009 (BST)
Yes, but there's nothing stopping a lot of unaffiliated survivors grouping together in-game via the talk or broadcast action, something zombies just can't do. With enough survivors you can not only repel an attack but stop any medium sized force from retaking it - especially if you were to use syringes to revive the 'right zombies' while defending a building. I'd also go as far as saying that if people couldn't combat revive (via whatever mechanism it requires - say toggling revive in a profile) that Kevan could bring down the cost of reviving, which would benefit the survivors. He couldn't do that right now because it would only encourage people to combat revive even more. --Roorgh 16:51, 10 April 2009 (BST)
Have you ever actually played a survivor? It's not like one person says "hay lets go kill them nasty zeds in that building over there" and then everyone goes kill them nasty zeds over there. The funny thing about talking is that you can lie.
Radios near each other are rarely tuned to the same channel so you can't get much communication through that, other than to your team mates who you might as well communicate with out of game. Not to mention that someone has to spend AP searching for the radios and generators, and keeping the generators running. Radios are even less trustworthy as you can't tell who broadcast the message.
Zombies can communicate just fine, if not even better. Feeding Groan is zero-maintenance, much more difficult to forge, doesn't have three hundred different channels to broadcast on, and the results are always relevant to your current location.
Smaller revive cost isn't actually that important as revives are already cheap. More important is the time you spend dead because you need someone else to revive you. Combat revives are a smaller nuisance since you can get back to being a zombie all by yourself. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 20:57, 10 April 2009 (BST)
Revive costs: Here you are saying they're cheap, yet one argument why this suggestion should be killed is that it's expensive. I'm more inclined to believe you, but that just makes the voting more frustrating if it's been killed for the wrong reasons.
Lying: Even if somebody was to lie, it's still effective if said to a large enough group. For the most part you're going to know the status of your nearby NT building assuming you're not a drifter, so the status is known. After that, does it matter if somebody lies when organising a retaliation as long as people turn up for it? Clearly there's no point saying "let's go get zombies now", you need time for people to hear it. If you say let's retake the NT building at 21:00 EST (or GMT) then people have time to see it, and react. At this point if enough people are willing what does it matter if it was a lie?
Communicating: Zombie communication is not better. It's difficult to forge, I grant you that, but it doesn't assist when you need more than one zombie to hit an EHB building, nor does it assist it keeping the doors open to give time for those zombies to log in and hear it. Our zombie group would be completely ineffective if it wasn't for irc and a forum, and while I'm sure there are a few that would prefer this it just makes the game dull. Survivors can communicate, properly communicate, so band together! stop hiding out in the mall patting yourself on your back. Quite a few of our team have alts as survivors - we've seen this first hand.
Lastly, I'd happily see alterations to revive queues to stop rotter clogging if this suggestion was also passed. Make it a little easier for everybody to play in the state they want to and not be forced to spend time in a state that they really don't want to play as. --Roorgh 09:16, 11 April 2009 (BST)
I can't see any of the kill votes saying revives are expensive. Some are saying rot revives are hard (and this would make them harder), but making them cheaper does not make them easier. Cost and difficulty are two different things.
Actually no, I'd say most of the time people don't know what the status of the local NT is unless it's reachable by free running just one or two blocks, and they usually aren't. Also, I don't think you get the damage a lie can do. Option A; some time (maybe half an hour?) before the appointed time you say that the building is already cleared and fixed. Not nearly as many go. Option B; Take the initiative and request "help" to a building in the opposite direction of a building that's being taken by zombies. People are less likely to listen to strangers in the future since there was no problem at the location. Repeat often enough and no one listens to strangers anymore. Talking is unreliable and even if people trusted strangers, I'm sure any resident death cultists would make sure it wouldn't last.
How many people do you think are left out of the 50 (only 50 can hear your speech, you know that?) when you take out those who can't log in at the specified time (sleeping, at work, at school) or couldn't be bothered to, those who aren't stocked up (restocking is one of the major reasons people are at malls or other TRPs), those who simply have other plans, and those who wouldn't trust a stranger?
Planning is possible (though difficult) for zombies: X:00, Flailing Gestures, and just plain talking.
And finally, as a largely dual nature player I'd much rather take both rotter clogging and rot revives in ruined NTs than neither of them. Frankly, I don't much care about people who have a "preferred state". If you want to limit yourself, you have to accept that you're going to have downtime. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 22:20, 11 April 2009 (BST)
Yeah, I tried that with my PKer. Full inventory of shotguns, weeks of searching, and all I managed was two 60HP flaked survivors before running out of ammo and AP. --  AHLGTG 17:02, 10 April 2009 (BST)
One data point does not make it worthy. There's a RNG involved - you can need hundreds of runs to see the average result. 14 shotguns + 4 pistols = 100% encumbrance = 52AP to totally discharge = 28 shells + 22 rounds (50AP) = 390 HP damage = 253.5 @ 65% accuracy = 202.8 against a person with a flak jacket or Flesh Rot. On average you should be capable of killing 4 people - you just didn't see the average this time, which isn't surprising. --Roorgh 08:51, 11 April 2009 (BST)
But you were talking about 13 AP disposal, which requires that you only use fully loaded shotguns (which means that on average you won't be able to kill 3 targets). Going with your inventory raises the cost to 16AP on average. Doesn't seem that big of an increase until you realize that 16 * 3 = 48. And no, 202.8 HP damage is not enough for four people with flesh rot or flak and body building. You'd need 240 HP damage to do that. Both the damage and AP needed cap out at three targets. And that's with an inventory optimized for killing that's missing important stuff. And again, it's going to take a long time to restock to the optimal inventory. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 10:04, 11 April 2009 (BST)
You're correct, I did make the mistake with the calculations (50HP and not the correct 60HP) and that was a sloppy mistake to make, especially as it accounted for the other effects of Flesh Rot. This still places the previous cited experience below the average of 3 maxed out survivors/zombies. As for the 16AP, while the average did change slightly that was simply to maximise the potential damage based on 50AP. This is one person of course. I still firmly believe that if survivors worked as a team using only in-game capabilities they could easily rout a large organised group of zombies without having to resort to optimal killing inventories. --Roorgh 11:36, 11 April 2009 (BST)

Hey dumbass, it makes it harder, not easier. ;). Well, depending on which side you're looking at if from, but you don't explicitly state that. :P --Mr. Angel, Help needed? 20:09, 9 April 2009 (BST)

Hey smartass, by looking at the context you can pretty much determine from which side I'm speaking >.< --Thadeous Oakley 20:20, 9 April 2009 (BST)

Actually, it says "Votes that do not have reasoning behind them are invalid. You MUST justify your vote." (Right below) "As above" is a pretty slick deal, though. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 00:04, 10 April 2009 (BST)

Number five of the "Advice to Voters" section: "It is strongly recommended that voters (especially in the kill/spam sections) justify their vote to help others understand the reason they disagree. Feedback helps new suggesters get a feel for what the community does and does not want included in Urban Dead, and a deeper understanding of the balance needed for a workable suggestion." It's a common contradiction in the guidelines, which is one reason why I rarely justify my votes. I've been here for quite some time now, I know a few ways around this system. :) --Mr. Angel, Help needed? 01:11, 10 April 2009 (BST)
Advice to voters, i.e. individual users, does not override the basic rules of the process. Quoting from the voting rules template to the right of your vote: "Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped." Keyword: must, as in required. You may feel free to view justification as a voluntary process, and any user may chose not to provide one, but the operative line in the voting rules template will still apply: "Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user." -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 03:28, 10 April 2009 (BST)

I see the word extinction being thrown about in the kill votes. There are 211 NT buildings in the game so claiming extinction is a tad melodramatic. The organisation required would be colossal! I also take issue of the word griefing being thrown in there too. Salt the land is hardly griefing. It's a tactic for zombies to play if they wish, just like having revive policies or barricading policies. --Roorgh 10:43, 10 April 2009 (BST)

You do understand Extinction is a group, not a game scenario, right? DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 10:56, 10 April 2009 (BST)
Well I do now. I'll happily admit I don't know all the groups or a lot of the history here, but isn't that why we can link to stuff? Extinction seem to be inactive anyway :-) What's the correct procedure at this point? Do I strike part of my comment out (it simply isn't correct) or do I delete it? --Roorgh 11:19, 10 April 2009 (BST)
Lol neither. It's a talk page, its only purpose is talking, correctly or not. And Extinction are the 36th largest group in the game at the moment. [1] DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 11:34, 10 April 2009 (BST)
In any case, NT Buildings are legitimate strategic places for a zombie to sleep, surely? I can't see how you can call it griefing when there's a proper reason for zombies to pursue this. --Stepdown 12:53, 10 April 2009 (BST)

Kill vote 12 "There are game balance reasons why this wasn't done and should never be done". Surely we could get some more detail on this? If there are genuine and real reasons then it'll help those that suggest ideas if they are enlightened. --Roorgh 13:49, 10 April 2009 (BST)

Re: - So when you are in normal NT, your brain cells are okay, when you are in ruined one, they somehow disappear? Just pointing out that isn't really the best reason that one can imho think of - not even mentioning that when you disable inhibitors that cause this effect in ones brain, it *is* possible to regenerate brain cells, brain does it on it's own only after major injuries to it, but... and not even mentioning zombie apocalypse isn't that realistic itself. I almost forgot - zombies don't have to search for their bites and claws, survivors do have to search for NT syringes --Alexander Abramov 22:11, 10 April 2009 (BST)

(In response to LaosOman, 25th Kill vote) Re: - "you can't clear the building of zombies": What you mean is that you could no longer clear a zombie from a ruined NT in 2 clicks. "humans don't have a skill that makes them immune to getting killed outside of cemeteries": Besides the obvious fact that zombies don't have a skill that makes them immune to being killed, zombies also don't have a one click "turn human into zombie" button--User:HarryHarry 23:32, 10 April 2009 (BST)

Discussion moved from developing suggestions

Timestamp: Stepdown 16:42, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Type: Improvement - Buildings
Scope: Brain rotted zombies inside ruined NT buildings
Description: You are inside a ruined NT Building. The NecroTech logo is set in the wall behind the front desk, and doors open onto powered-down computer rooms and laboratories. The laboratories have been ruined, with broken equipment smashed to the floor. A thin layer of dust covers the debris. The floor is flecked with dried blood.

At the moment simply installing a generator in a ruined NT building allows you to revive a brain rotted zombie. I would suggest that a powered NT building would also need to have the laboratories and equipment required to revive a rotter in tact as well as a power source, it would seem more believable to me that you would need to repair the building before you would be able to revive a zombie.

My suggestion is that zombies with brain rot cannot be revived within a ruined NT building.

Discussion (NT Ruins Ruin Rotter Revives)

I have to admit that I love the idea and it does make sense judging from the flavor text that you get when ransacking and ruining NTs, this has to be a dupe from somewhere. --Johnny Bass 17:13, 7 April 2009 (BST)

That's why it probably is a dupe. Nothing good nowadays isn't a dupe. :( --Mr. Angel, Help needed? 17:16, 7 April 2009 (BST)
This came up on another suggestion a couple of weeks ago, but I don't know of a dupe. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 17:29, 7 April 2009 (BST)
While I did try to find any dupes, this is my first suggestion adventure, sorry if any dupe does materialise --Stepdown 17:33, 7 April 2009 (BST)

Quoting myself from a couple of weeks ago: "The reason why you can revive rotters in a powered NT isn't the labs or equipment, it's the wireless access to NecroNet. That's why you need NecroNet Access to do the revives, and that's also why the building doesn't need to be fixed in order to do it." --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 17:16, 7 April 2009 (BST)

The wireless router for Necronet gets broken during the ruin. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 17:27, 7 April 2009 (BST)
I'd like to see you fix a wireless router with just a toolbox. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 17:29, 7 April 2009 (BST)
I've seen a truck put on top of a tower block that's been demolished and then fixed using just basic tools. It could be pulled from its moorings and its power cord snapped, such things will render it 'broken' and fixable using tape and pliers, basic tools. Also, since ruin descriptions include broken windows, I'd like to see a pane of glass fixed by a survivor using just a toolbox. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 18:12, 7 April 2009 (BST)
a truck ≠ fine electronics. Lights and radios work even in ruins, so I don't buy the snapped power cord. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the windows actually had any glass left and were just "fixed" by covering with cardboard/planks/whatever. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 19:22, 7 April 2009 (BST)
The toolbox is enough to repair the labs that are used to make syringes - can you honestly say that a lab capable of this doesn't include fine electronics? --Roorgh 19:48, 7 April 2009 (BST)
If I recall correctly, syringe manufacture also works even when the NT is ruined, meaning that those facilities aren't broken either (also, I don't think the syringes are manufactured in the labs). --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 19:57, 7 April 2009 (BST)
I play a zombie so I honestly don't know (although I didn't believe this to be the case). If this is how it works could you post a screenshot to eliminate any doubt please (genuine request, I'm not being facetious). If this is the case I'd say what's the point of ruining an NT building at all! --Roorgh 22:11, 7 April 2009 (BST)
I'll probably get that screenshot tomorrow, I spent all my AP today finding a genny. The point of ruining the NT is pretty much the same as any other building; to deny free running, prevent barricading, and decrease search rates (searching for syringes in a powered and repaired building is much more AP efficent than manufacturing them). --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 11:05, 8 April 2009 (BST)
Here's an iwitness. The button's there, but I didn't want to waste 20 AP manufacturing one so I didn't press it. I see no reason why it wouldn't work if the button's there. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 21:47, 9 April 2009 (BST)
Thanks for taking the time and effort to do that. I would agree that on the face of it, if the button is present it is likely the option is there. I still don't agree with it though. --Roorgh 07:54, 10 April 2009 (BST)
The equipment smashed to the floor could easily include a wireless router, or the wireless equipment you need to attach to your needle. If you're saying you wouldn't be able to fix it, surely that just means this effect should be permanent? ;) --Stepdown 17:37, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Nice try :D, but it means (as is evident from current gameplay mechanics) that the wireless routers are not broken along with the other stuff. They're usually placed at ceiling level, which would put them out of the zombies' reach. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 17:48, 7 April 2009 (BST)
I've seen some desperate defence arguments, but quibbling over whether wireless routers could be reached by zombies is bordering on the ludicrous. And these wireless routers: What are they connected to? Somewhere, in any wireless setup, there is a connection to a database. Regardless of whether the connection is wireless, this database will be a physical structure and thus prone to ruination. That is unless you want to claim that this is all satellite-based, which it isn't because that would enable rot revives everywhere. --Papa Moloch 19:43, 7 April 2009 (BST)
We're talking about a corporation that has a ton of offices in the city and created the zombie plague. I think they'd build their datacenters to withstand corporate espionage, earthquakes, tornadoes and even zombie hordes. I doubt even the surivors could access them. And again, you can't fix those kind of things with just a toolbox, which would imply they're not being broken when ruining the building. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 20:44, 7 April 2009 (BST)
or it could just imply that Kevan forgot about ruin when he wrote the flavour text ;)--Honestmistake 20:47, 7 April 2009 (BST)
And you wouldn't be able to repair the kind of damage that completely prevents free running access with a toolbox either. The entire reasoning behind these hypothetical ZOMG Earthquake, zombie, 'nuke the site from orbit: It's the only way to be sure'-proof wireless boxes (TM) is specious. --Papa Moloch 20:56, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Ransack and ruin are (as far as I can tell) mostly about making a mess so free runners will slip and fall, or be unable to enter due to furniture and such blocking your way. Repairing it is just a matter of cleaning it up. As for decay, you don't have to fix a building to the exact same condition it was in for it to serve as a shelter, as opposed to electronics which does need to be in essentially the same condition as before to function. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 11:46, 8 April 2009 (BST)
Again, a genuine question; Is your only objection to this suggestion that it doesn't fit with Kevan's particular choice of words? If he was to change the text to allow this, would you vote to keep it if it was suggested? --Roorgh 22:14, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Ug, everybody stop trying to argue logic in Urban Dead, none exists. Mechanics > everything else. --  AHLGTG 23:09, 7 April 2009 (BST)
It's not my only objection, but the others have presented my other concerns. When the reason for the suggestion seems to be "it would seem more believable", I find arguing the logic of the suggestion very important and changing other flavour to support this suggestion a bit pointless. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 11:46, 8 April 2009 (BST)
Are Scans possible in powered ruined NTs? If no, then the wireless access is down; if yes, then it's there. However, whether or not it's there doesn't dictate whether revives in ruins work - in my opinion, at least. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 17:41, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Scans are possible everywhere regardless of the locations state--Honestmistake 18:43, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Think he means the Access NecroNet type of scan. --  AHLGTG 18:56, 7 April 2009 (BST)
That I do. --Bob Boberton TF / DW 19:13, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Yeah, they're possible. --Midianian¦T¦DS¦SP¦ 21:47, 9 April 2009 (BST)
I remember you stating this explanation before, but it still sits uneasily with me. I don't think an idea should be shot down simply based on one or two words in a description where the meaning being inferred may not have been Kevan's intention. At one point rotters couldn't be revived at all I believe. If zombies enter a survivor held NT building you can combat revive to your hearts content. All that's being asked is you kick out the zombies the good ol' fashioned way if they go to the trouble of ruining it and holding onto it. Survivors can communicate in-game and organise massive clear-outs with anybody they wish. --Roorgh 19:58, 7 April 2009 (BST)

As a player who dislikes all rotter revives I do want some protection against them but this would mostly just punish rotters who want to be revived as I imagine its not easy keeping a rotter clinic powered and unruined when the doors are always open. Your main problem here will be survivor only players are pretty set against anything which damages their ability to 1 shot kill squatters and clear NTs with a minimum of effort. --Honestmistake 18:35, 7 April 2009 (BST)

Is it that different really though from what a rotter requires right now? I think anybody that wants to play a survivor yet has the Brain Rot skill should simply accept they're on a lost cause and create a new player (unless they want to play with increased difficulty). --Roorgh 19:51, 7 April 2009 (BST)
there are a fairly large number of players who like the extra risk that death carries when it is such a pain to get revived and I think it would be unfair to take that from them in this way. The problem as I see it is that more rotters took the skill to avoid revives and the update to allow poweered NT revives really messed that up, its all well and good folk saying that they should just stay out of NT's if they don't want reviving but thats pretty much the most important survivor resource and should be more of a target not less. --Honestmistake 20:41, 7 April 2009 (BST)
The suggestion though would still allow rotters to be revived, simply not in a powered but ruined NT building. So it doesn't cripple the game completely for them, merely makes it a little harder. I agree with the rest of what you said, but I'm pro this suggestion :-) --Roorgh 22:06, 7 April 2009 (BST)

Holy crap, how did we digress into "Wireless routers blah blah Windows toolboxes no I don't think that because they probably have servers in nuke-proof vaults or something also I hope I can fix a whale with a toolbox"? I like the suggestion, and I don't really know why it's just sitting here in DevSug instead of being voted on (or duped definitively). --Bob Boberton TF / DW 20:49, 7 April 2009 (BST)

I put it here as I'm unsure about correct etiquette with suggestions, and am not familiar enough to know if it was a dupe or not. If I knew how to move it I would :-/ --Stepdown 21:12, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Ask this guy for help. I don't much care for the suggestions page anymore.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 21:24, 7 April 2009 (BST)
Just managed to get this live... Suggestion:20090409 NT Ruins Ruin Rotter Revives --Stepdown 20:00, 9 April 2009 (BST)
Personal tools