Suggestion talk:20100206 Ladders

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From Developing Suggestions

Ladders

Timestamp: MikeLemmer 21:04, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Type: Item Addition
Scope: Getting into buildings
Description: Ladders give new survivors a way to enter heavily barricaded buildings, while keeping Free Running useful. If the survivor has a ladder & is outside a heavily-barricaded building, he can use the ladder to enter it via a window. The encumbrance and one-use-only nature of the ladder keeps it inferior to Free Running, but it can be a lifesaver for a novice survivor that needs to get into a building.

Ladder: 40% Encumbrance, found in Factories, Warehouses, Fire Stations, and Junkyards, can be used by a survivor for 1 AP to enter a building regardless of barricade level. It is discarded after use.

"You brace the ladder against a wall and climb in through a window, pushing the ladder away once you're in."

Advantages: Lets a survivor get into any building, regardless of barricade level. Useful if survivor doesn't have Free Running or if all buildings in a cluster are Heavily Barricaded.

Disadvantages:

  • Extremely bulky, taking up almost half your encumbrance. This is a bigger disadvantage for veteran players; new players usually won't have enough inventory to care.
  • The AP cost to find a ladder is more than it usually costs to use a Free Runner path.
  • One use per ladder.

Modifications (1/31/10): Further modifications based on feedback & thought:

  • Ladders can't be used on ruined buildings, to preserve the pinata strategy.
  • Search rates tweaked so other items aren't crowded out of important resource points so much:
  • Following the fir tree example, ladders can be used as melee weapons (10%, 2 damage)

Discussion (Ladders)

I can't immediately think of something bad about this suggestion. Seems like an interesting idea but I'm sure someone is going to find a flaw here. --Umbrella-White.pngThadeous OakleyUmbrella-White.png 21:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Me too. I think it's because this might actually be... balanced? But I swear that can't be right. --Maverick Talk - OBR Praise Knowledge! 404 21:27, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Unless a new player starts with one, the effort of finding it is going to be extremely tiresome - it's a good idea in theory, though I'd consider having it be a starting item for one of the classes. Firefighter makes the most sense, but doesn't need any kind of a boost. Maybe all of them, save scout? For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee 21:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it'd probably be more of a "hey, I found a ladder...this might be useful" type of thing, rather than a "I must go out and search for a ladder now" type of thing. And I have to say, I can't think of anything wrong with it either, and rather like the idea. Aichon 22:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
I believe Consumers could use it the most. With current barricade policies, malls are either EHB, under attack by zombies, or ruined. One of my characters is a Consumer; it has dawned on me I probably can't use his initial Shopping skill until I get Free Running. Not only doesn't he have have any initial skills that help him earn XP, but he can't put his initial skill to use until Level 2! The ladder is my answer to the question "How can I let Consumers use Shopping at Level 1?" --MikeLemmer 23:10, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

As a death-cultist, I must point out that this takes a lot of the sting from overcading and especially pinatas. Why bother to hack down those cades from the outside if you can just go in? And it's going to happen, just as the high encumbrance of gennys and fuel doesn't keep smarter groups from keeping spare ones for key TRPs at hand. If ruins would be excluded from laddering (too crumbly to lean a ladder on or whatever), I might change my mind. --Spiderzed 22:13, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I won't really feel that sorry if Death Cultists suddenly can't overcade properly anymore. As for Ruins, yeah that would make sense leaving it out. --Umbrella-White.pngThadeous OakleyUmbrella-White.png 22:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
And I really don't feel sorry that people can't enter EHB buildings without free running, but they play the game too and I respect their desires. For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee 22:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
But that doesn't mean we should never attempt to change things, now would we? --Umbrella-White.pngThadeous OakleyUmbrella-White.png 23:02, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Not what I said. Just saw you being quite dismissive of a whole play style. I'd say restricting a ladder to Heavily or Very Heavily Barricaded buildings still gives it use, and allows pinatas to still function. For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee 23:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Note that my main point have been pinatas. They take quite some planning, skill and luck to create (unless you happen to roll with a well-organized group as a Gore Corps), and you neglect other opportunities as parachuting or GKing on such a gamble. Therefore, it should yet take some effort to undo, rather than letting everyone with a toolbox and a ladder to spare undo everything for 2AP. I'm fine with regular buildings, and with them, ladders might even become an useful item for cultists. They don't need much inventory but ammo anyway, and it could take away the headache of finding an entry point in time. --Spiderzed 23:18, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
I'd agree that restricting a ladder to non-ruined buildings would work better for pinatas. If a building isn't VSB, it's probably EHB, and restricting ladders from working on EHB buildings would defeat their whole purpose. I also thought it might make it easier for new death cultists to get into barricaded buildings. Also, zombies could start carrying a ladder around with them and, if accidently revived, use it to get into an EHB building and wreck havoc until they're killed again. --MikeLemmer 23:26, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I must disagree that this wouldn't help veteran survivors. I'm currently encumbered at 98% or so. Say I go out now and grab a ladder. Because of the way the game works, I can keep all of my useless junk, and STILL carry the ladder. Too big a buff, at the moment.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 22:25, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Meh, it would basically function as free entry card once per veteran survivor. It would take a considerable effort to get your inventory set up like that. I don't think it would be that much of a buff, especially considering survivors have implied the same overemcumberence strategy with gennies for God knows how long.--Umbrella-White.pngThadeous OakleyUmbrella-White.png 22:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
I also chose most of the ladder-spawning buildings to either be A)poor resource points, B)good resource points for permanent items, or C)good resource points for other bulky items. From my current viewpoint, a novice is more likely to search in any building they can find, or hit a Fire Department for the all-important Fire Axe, and find a ladder in the process. The only veterans I expect to find ladders on the side are those searching for generators, fuel, or toolboxes, two of which are also bulky as hell. Can I get an opinion on that from a veteran? --MikeLemmer 22:59, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
My veteran opinion is listed above. If this ladder existed, I would take one.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Let me get this right, you want an item that negates the no entry clause on HB or higher cades? You want this to help newbies get into malls?

This item is unneeded, newbies can walk up to the mall and click enter to get in.... unless of course some idiot's caded the entire mall up. Who's fault is that? That's right, it's the fault of the survivors. You don't get a new item to bypass the downsides in your own fucking policies. Why should there be a possibility of a street treat escaping from a feral due to an item you got put into the game because the entire pro-survivor side are stupid?

Overcading is a valid tactic because none of you have barricade plans with enough entry points. Want to stop getting locked out? Talk to each other and create and maintain more entry points. Don't come here and expect to get a free pass for your own idiocy. It's your side of the game, the onus is on you to let the newbies into the mall, not for us to change the game because you can't be bothered.

Why the fuck don't you make sure that malls in green suburbs are lowered to VSB to let newbies in? Why should Kevan rush to cover you lot again? Barricades work on a trade, more protection from an attack for no entry. Want entry points? Have less protection. This is the fundamental principle of barricades that is the basis of all zombie/survivor conflict. Do not negate them just because you don't like the inherent and deliberate downside. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 07:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say I believe this is a dupe. Maybe someone could search for it. And I'd like everyone to imagine what the areas outside malls would look like after 1 month of this. There'd be no need for 'cades, the zombes wouldn't be able to get in because of the piles of ladders. Cookies and Cream 10:57, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Unless of course they are wooden ladders that break when they fall down from standing at such heights, yet can hold a single survivors weight long enough for them to get in, or they're biodegradable.--Big Cat 12:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
If it's a dupe, could you please provide a link to the duped suggestion? I've done a quick cursory scan of previous suggestions & saw nothing that seemed to cover this. MikeLemmer 08:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I'll have a looksee. Such as this or this? Is that good? Cookies and Cream 11:32, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
This suggestion strikes me as different. Mike's suggestion sticks with the usual and accepted item rules, while those two suggestions add unnecessary frills (2AP move cost, ladder creation based on Construction which helps new characters not at all etc.) --Spiderzed 12:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, I suppose. Better you get the dupeness cleared here, than when you take it to Suggestions, anyway. Cookies and Cream 07:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I was ready to shoot this idea down based on the name, but I think the encumbrance level and 1 use balances it out nicely. My only real problems are with the justification of why a ladder could only be used once, and adding them to hardware store searches. But for me right now that would be enough to vote no. If you can think of a more plausible explanation for why a ladder is only used 1 time, and if you remove them from hardware stores, I'd be in favor.--GANG Giles Sednik CAPD 12:25, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

What about grappling guns or grappling hooks? They are more outlandish than ladders (and Hollywood brought us lots of misconceptions about their usage), but are better to rationalize as one-shot items. --Spiderzed 14:36, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Maybe it's one use because you can't take it with you? I dunno, but trying to maneuver a ladder through a window you just climbed through seems a bit impossible. --Umbrella-White.pngThadeous OakleyUmbrella-White.png 20:37, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
That makes sense to me. Perhaps having that reflected in the flavour text would be a good idea. For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee 20:42, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I'd agree with that. Gameplay-wise, ladders would either be too powerful (if they were unlimited use) or too much extra coding (if they were like generators and could be set and then taken down / destroyed). The "you climb up the ladder and leave it behind since it's too bulky to drag up with you" would be enough of a handwave to justify it, just like how people accept you can't unhook a used portable generator and take it with you. MikeLemmer 08:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Concerning hardware stores: I would like to keep them out of hardware stores, but honestly... why wouldn't a hardware store have ladders? I'm having trouble figuring out an explanation to that besides "I said so". MikeLemmer 08:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Why would streets and wastelands?--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 21:28, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Because ladders might've been stored in garages, or left unattended outside when the plague hit, or they're looting other abandoned ladders... that's the handwave. Gameplay-wise, because newbies might be crazy enough to search in those areas. MikeLemmer 21:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Make it impossible to freerun whole carrying a ladder and you might just squeak this through....--Honestmistake 00:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Reasonable, but that would require some new code on Kevan's part. It might get past the public, but it'd probably get shot down by the programmer. --MikeLemmer 05:05, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Could've sworn there was a guideline around here saying that you shouldn't worry about how difficult a thing is to code, since all of the suggestions require new coding anyway and it's up to Kevan in the end regardless, but I can't find it. That said, as someone with a little experience programming, it seems to me that checking for a ladder when Free Running wouldn't take more than a few lines and a few minutes to code up. It's pretty trivial, I should think. Aichon 07:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
You just know someone is going to come over here, read that, and say "Well, then let's do the same thing for Generators." And yeah, I believe there was something about only thinking about the merit of the suggestion. It is at the bottom of the Suggestion Template thingy. You know the one. The Subst:Suggestion Voting thing, in Invalid Votes. Cookies and Cream 07:46, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Voting Discussion

Damn you and your edit conflict, Misanthropy! Emot-argh.gif ᚱᛖᚢᛖᚾᚨᚾ 00:56, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I'll conflict your mum's edit! For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee 01:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)