Talk:Coalition for Fair Tactics/Assembly/DEM

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DEMON

Section 1

Quick and easy awnser. Either the Datal collected by Demon is made available to ALL players, or it gets shut down. period. Conndrakamod TCFT 10:56, 1 August 2006 (BST)

Agreed. And if the DEM is unwilling to cooperate, action must be taken against them. –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 11:00, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Agreed, but the only option is probably to shut it down, it probably uses to much bandwith to be made public.--The General T Sys U! P! F! 11:29, 1 August 2006 (BST)
I have to disagree. I don't know how this plug-in works exactly. How much information have you got about it?--Thari T/C 11:37, 1 August 2006 (BST)
What we've got on the front page, I think it's plain enough.--The General T Sys U! P! F! 11:38, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Automatically. Every square you step through it automatically sends the data to the server. You don't need to lift a finger. –Xoid STFU! 11:44, 1 August 2006 (BST)
I've changed my mind. I Agree too.--Thari T/C 11:50, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Jeeze this coalition is a joke. So the DEM are more organised than the rest of you guys, so you want to nerf 'em? Fark. I say nerf any group that shares info via a forum! Nerf meta-gaming, cause I'm a loner! Hazzah! -- Boxy 11:57, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Got anything productive to say, or did you just feel like proving yourself to be the idiot everyone thought you to be? Cyberbob  Talk  12:02, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Boxy, as being part of a group that stepped over the line once, I can honestly say that DEM is no more organized than either the RRF, CDF or DHPD. I would eliminate metagaming if I could, but you cant. And notice I'm not saying they HAVE to get rid of DEMON, just make the information easily accessable to everyone to balance out the issue. Conndrakamod TCFT 12:04, 1 August 2006 (BST)
From my perspective, that's like asking every metagaming group to open up their forums though Conndraka, and share with all, any intel they share with amoungst themselves. Any group can design their own intel gathering tool. I'm only part of insignificantly small groups, but I'm not going to start whinging because the RFF has members all over the map, telling each other where the juicy targets are. Same thing, just a different scale -- Boxy 12:34, 1 August 2006 (BST)
It has nothing to do with organisation. It has to do with an unfair advantage. How many groups have someone technically proficient enough to code their own automatically updating utility? It's the complete lack of effort required that is the crux of the issue. –Xoid STFU! 13:06, 1 August 2006 (BST)
It's a firefox extension isn't it? Open source? Most large groups should have someone with the skill to modify it for their own purposes if so. Technology, ain't it grand? Gotta keep up, if you wanna be a super-power --  boxy  TtaMe  ~~~~~ 13:35, 1 August 2006 (BST)
But it's not public, we don't have the extension.--The General T Sys U! P! F! 13:37, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Would making it open source solve the problem? Not necessarily opening up all the info that they've already gathered, but just putting the code out for other groups? Then it would be no different that UD-Tool. YbborT 14:02, 1 August 2006 (BST)
I'd say shut it down too, because if everyone gets the information then it's basically tracking where everyone is at any one point. The only good use I can see for it is if someone managed to write it to automatically update the suburb danger page, although then you'd need to have set parameters on what constituted 'dangerous' etc. Jonny12 W! 12:24, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Doesn't track profiles. –Xoid STFU! 13:06, 1 August 2006 (BST)
But does it not save who sent the data, so they are effectively being tracked? Jonny12 W! 16:37, 1 August 2006 (BST)
To my knowledge it doesn't. It only sends what they see "8 survivors" and/or "3 zombies" not "xoid, Conndraka, Jonny12, etc.". I could be wrong, and that stuff is restricted to higher ups, but then I fail to see the point of the "I saw X at location" style posts on Brainstock from the various high rankers. –Xoid STFU! 17:08, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Regarding the "lack of effort" comment from Xoid: I'm not a part of your group or their group, so I'm not going to sway you either way, but I think you're underestimating the time and experience that it takes to code one of those things. It's not a lack of effort, it's a huge, overwhelming effort on the part of the techies in the group. The techies have to get it running, keep it running, maintain the databases on the back end, watch the bandwidth consumption, deal with bugs and interactions with other Firefox extensions, deal with access issues, look at changes that Kevan has made to the game and update accordingly, think about what information should be kept and what information should not be... you say lack of effort, I say, you've just put all that tremendous effort onto different people's backs. There's no "lack of effort" from any group that make these things. Disagree with trackers if you'd like, but don't blame it on any lack of effort, because that's just talking about effort that you as a user might percieve. I also think you can't blame groups for getting good techies, and that you shouldn't blame techies for wanting to use their skills to help their groups. Or their friends. --Shadowstar 08:31, 4 August 2006 (BST)
A monumental effort put in place at the start, and then only moderate levels of effort required afterward to maintain the thing. You can not be saying you seriously believe that you are doing work equivalent to what the other 159 members of the CDF combined do. Because that is what I mean by "lack of effort". Cutting it down to just you and a handful of others doing the work of 16, 20 members is making your group eight times more time efficient than any group either without the capability, or the resources to implement such a thing. Once development is over, that likely increases to about 16 times more time efficient.
I swear, the next person to go "LOLOLOL butz we h@s l3arningz!!!onetwo!111!!1", just think: if you were made grossly obsolete by your employer going off shore, and setting up in China, would you bitch? Would you? About them having a fundamental advantage that cannot be countered without giving up copious amounts of your time? Yeah, I thought so.
Just continue to draw the analogy out, and think of dumping and how it affects an economy. The analogy can only be stretched so far, but the underlying principle is the same. –Xoid STFU! 19:15, 10 August 2006 (BST)

Section 2

Before We get much Deeper into this I think we need to get someone who is part of the D.E.M. in on this conversation and explain the details of DEMON, it's use and application et al. Conndrakamod TCFT 16:57, 1 August 2006 (BST)

A good idea. Although I know enough of the details, this is their plaything. –Xoid STFU! 17:08, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Who in DEM do we know who would be willing to talk? –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 19:22, 1 August 2006 (BST)
Perhaps Gilant. Perhaps just *ugh* visit Brainstock. –Xoid STFU! 03:45, 2 August 2006 (BST)
I'm a DEM Member. Why are you all getting edgy over that fact that we are a bit more organised? -- Krazy Monkey W! 17:53, 2 August 2006 (BST)
Because you say you have info that supports your case but when asked to provide proof to defend your case you refuse to since DEMON is not for public use. Therefore the DEM can make up anything they want and claim DEMON. Other groups cannot prove you wrong since they have no way of countering evidence that is not even shown. This is a public wiki and private info should not be accepted here. In the same way in a court a psychic's case does not hold up. The psychic provides evidence and no one can prove it wrong since they have no possible way of countering evidence they cannot even see. Sonny Corleone WTF RRF ASS 18:08, 2 August 2006 (BST)
Or as I would say, because of the reasons outlined on the main CFT page. Quite simply, you have an unfair advantage. –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 19:23, 2 August 2006 (BST)
Actually, I have made it known to our officers that limited access could be provided to independent wiki mods whenever need arose to back up any disputed claims. While our policies and the guidance of our upper command try to ensure fair play and good behavior on the part of all our members, with a group as large as the DEM mistakes do happen. We have worked in the past with other groups, including the RRF, to find compromise on issues of fair-play such as meta-zerging and are always open to addressing such problems; but we also wont be prevented from doing our job just because we do it well. And I have to say that this is something that should have been brought to us directly. That this (sub?)group was organized and started attacking us over this, without bothering to involve us up front (I only just found out because a member stumbled across it) certainly does not make it seem you have any interest in seeking a real resolution - you seem to already be working yourselves up to attempting to take punative measures against us without having even attempted to engage us in conversation. I'd also like it known up front that both Sonny and Xoid have extremely strong personal issues against the DEM, and me in particular. If a more neutral representative wishes to engage me, and the DEM leadership, in a real conversation about DEMON, I would be quite happy to participate. --Gilant talk|DEM 19:33, 2 August 2006 (BST)
I have no issues with the DEM. I have issues with members. But that has nothing to do with this. DEMON is an unfair advantage that DEM members know things other can't even dream of finding out and that they can claim things that aren't true since no one can prove otherwise. Sonny Corleone WTF RRF ASS 20:08, 2 August 2006 (BST)
"Actually, I have made it known to our officers that limited access could be provided to independent wiki mods whenever need arose to back up any disputed claims." Great. Wiki mods, however, represent a tiny fraction of the player population. We are talking about all players being at an unfair disadvantage, not just the mods.

"…but we also wont be prevented from doing our job just because we do it well." No one is asking that you stop doing your job. We are asking that you stop doing you job using unfair tactics. The fact that playing unfairly helps you do your job especially well is irrelevant. The ends do not justify the means.

"That this (sub?)group was organized and started attacking us over this, without bothering to involve us up front (I only just found out because a member stumbled across it) certainly does not make it seem you have any interest in seeking a real resolution - you seem to already be working yourselves up to attempting to take punative measures against us without having even attempted to engage us in conversation." Don't flatter yourself. CFT was not created to attack the DEM, it was created to stop the plague of dirty playing wherever it occurs, and whoever instigates it. We have not yet decided on what action needs to be taken against you, or even that it does. If we can come to a resolution peacefully, that would be ideal. We would prefer it if you would sit down and talk about it.

"I'd also like it known up front that both Sonny and Xoid have extremely strong personal issues against the DEM, and me in particular. If a more neutral representative wishes to engage me, and the DEM leadership, in a real conversation about DEMON, I would be quite happy to participate." I'm sorry about that. It's also irrelevant. Xoid is not on this Assembly of Representatives. Sonny is, because he is the leader of a group that has pledged. I am impartial, but you will have the choice of talking to the Assembly as a whole — all 10 members, Sonny included — or none of us. We are representatives of the entirety of the CFT. –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 20:10, 2 August 2006 (BST)


Section 4

I'm sorry but I dont see how a giant sit rep holder is such a big deal. DEMON allows members to get easier access to information about the areas that we occupy. It only displays zombie counts, survivor counts and building status which is what is shown in standard DEM Sit Reps anyway so it is no different to our usual work. -- Krazy Monkey W! 20:34, 2 August 2006 (BST)

Well, it hasn't actually displayed survivor counts in quite a while. It was decided that feature was too easy for a zombie spy to exploit. --Gilant talk|DEM 20:40, 2 August 2006 (BST)


Section 5

Let's start with the basics. First, what is an unfair playing tactic, and does DEMON fit that description. Looking at your front page and reading the comments here, it appears your only solid complaint, from your definitions of unfair tactics, is "Using information obtained through one character to benefit another". As DEMON and IMP are only designed as tools to make it easier to collect and display data that are normally available to anyone, and which the DEM and any other well organized group have always sought to track, I find it difficult to apply any of the other stated definitions directly to this dispute. Is this correct? --Gilant talk|DEM 20:40, 2 August 2006 (BST)

The problem (from my p.o.v.)is that Alts operated off the same computer gather information for DEMON as well as those in DEM (see below). I dont have a problem with the extension personaly as long as it is limited to DEM chars only, but I don't see where thats possible. Conndrakamod TCFT 20:55, 2 August 2006 (BST)
Restricting it to members of the DEM actually wouldn't be too hard an adjustment (as a technical challenge - it would be a fair amount of coding), as our personnel roster is in the same database. Of course, keeping our personnel roster up to date is a challenge all on its own! It was always planned to provide a simple on/off switch for IMP in the tools menu to make it as easy as possible to switch - but once I stopped it from reporting when dead (as many members have zombie alts who obviously have no business reporting) it was less of an issue for people and I haven't gotten back to that. ... It might even be possible to have it switch off automatically when you log in to UD and pop up a window asking if you want to activate IMP. This way you don't have to remember to turn it off (and authorized users hopefully wont forget to turn it back on!). Would that be an acceptable solution to that portion? --Gilant talk|DEM 21:23, 2 August 2006 (BST)
AS far as "I" am concerned that (Implementing those two safe gaurds) would be fine. If the plug in (and its information) was only available to DEM personel that would go a long way in aleviating some of my concerns. From an RP perspective I see it as droping batery powered listening devices every where you go. Caveat: This is assuming that it only lists building status and presence of Generators and the like... I'm still considering the issue of notes... One more Idea, would you be willing to consider limiting players by allowing them to pull up the information only if they are standing in a powered building? (RP= Plugging in a receiver & Laptop). I want it known that I'm more concerned about finding a solution to the issue rather than alowing things to go sour among the player base. Conndrakamod TCFT 02:23, 3 August 2006 (BST)
To be fair, I see it more like taking a "snapshot" of the situation, and feeding it into a central database (like a police system) than battery powered listening devices. Remember that a player actually has to be logged in and active for it to be being updated. As has been expressed before, merely a sitrep gatherer and viewer. If I am logged out, and the barricades on the building I am in fall, this will not be shown in DEMON. JohnMordenT | DEM 11:30 GMT, 16 November 2006.

Section 6

The other major concern here seems just to be that DEMON does what others have always tried to do too well. That by the merits of our accomplishments, using only publically available information as best we are able, we have wrought too well and now may need to be 'forced' to throw away the fruits of our labors, so that our work can be harder? Shall we become Harrison Bergeron for you? --Gilant talk|DEM 20:40, 2 August 2006 (BST)

I Quote from the DHPD list. anyway, the DEMON tool is like an interactive map of malton. its a website, and it has a downloadable firefox plugin. basically what it does, is every time you move at all, in game, it updates the interacive map automatically. there is a series of symbols and a legend, so theres a symbol for a genny thats running, a different symbol if theres a genny thats out of fuel, and symbols for all kinds of stuff. the barricade levels are updated, and the number of zeds, survivors, etc. theres also a place for a person to leave a comment on the map - and the plugin gives you a "comment" box in-game on UD, just below the building info but above your inventory / action buttons, so you can type your comment for the map without having to go to the map, you can do it from your ud screen. it also shows how long it has been since any given building was updated, in days, hours, and minutes.

if it didn't update itself, id say its a great idea, but its too easy. all you have to do is walk around, you don't have to update the map at all. not only that, but i imagine people use it with all of their characters. the stupid plugin asks you for the password every time you spend any ap and won't shut up unless you give it to it. its annoying. i gave it the password today so it would stop asking. so i suppose i updated part of their map for dunell hills today. oops. i'll have to get rid of it. my roomate set it up! i swear! im not in the mpd.

Now my questions include: is how accessible is the information? Can somone with access to the mainsource able to see what is going on in each of the locations? How Could you exploit this if one was to do so? Can safegaurds be programed in so that information is only gathered from a char if DEM is in the Profile? Conndrakamod TCFT 20:50, 2 August 2006 (BST)

We need subheadings for this conversation <_<. This information is protected by a password that gets changed at least once a month. If you have access to our website (by knowing the password), you can view DEMON. DEMONs display is basically just like the map of Malton (though it defaults to a 5x5 grid) with some extra icons, numbers and timestamps added, and it can be re-centered on any coordinates provided. As for exploiting it I would worry more about griefers adding false information (changing an overbarricaded building to VSB and possibly 'trapping' someone without free running and low on AP outside) than someone 'exploiting' it (in the sense of using it for unintended purposes). Trespassers would be able to see which buildings in their area are barricaded, or where there are large concentrations of zombies, avoiding danger. I suppose GKers could use it to speed their search for targets. --Gilant talk|DEM 21:38, 2 August 2006 (BST)
Know what it basically does? It gives X-ray vision for the whole map to DEM members. You know how much we like X-ray vision suggestions on this wiki, don't you? –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 22:07, 2 August 2006 (BST)
I have to agree, but I understand that DEMON is a tool that basically fulfills the objective of the Suburbs page wonderfully. A huge ammount of info that the program recopilates is only available to DEM members, when it's obvious that non-DEM characters gather info along with alts and non-DEM characters use the info for selfish purposes, making this unfair. If the tool were available to everyone, most of the core of Urban Dead that it's about not-knowing-what-the-fuck-is-out-there-or-the-block-next-to-here will be crushed.
So, the tool does bring an unfair advantage to DEM members (and any non-DEM member that "somehow" got both the program and this month's password), and can't be published to the general public unless you want to destroy the game. I don't see any exit but the oblitertion of the tool itself, sorry. --Matthew Fahrenheit YRC | T | W! 22:25, 2 August 2006 (BST)
You are completely wrong bob it doesn't in fact give x-ray vision of the whole map to the DEM any more than the firefighters under my command posting what they've seen on our forums it is the exact same thing. They still have to go out they still have to click the squares they want to go to and they still have to actually play. I fail to see how it gives x-ray vision--Kristi of the Dead 23:46, 2 August 2006 (BST)
The ones collecting the information still have to play, but everybody else does not. Thus, X-ray vision. And with regards to this recurrent "but you could do this with forums!!!" fallacy that people appear to be employing, yes, you could, but only in the same way that you could co-ordinate characters to kill someone without zerging. By circumventing the more difficult option in a manner that would not be possible for the vast majority of players, you have created an unfair advantage for your members. If you really believe that forums would be just as effective as DEMON, you should have no problem using them instead. --Jimbo Bob ASSU! 00:01, 3 August 2006 (BST)
"And with regards to this recurrent "but you could do this with forums!!!" fallacy that people appear to be employing, yes, you could, but only in the same way that you could co-ordinate characters to kill someone without zerging." Bob, I don't see your logic, here. If you can co-ordinate characters without zerging, hey, go for it. Zerging is pretty easily defined. You do it and you're cheating. You don't and you're not. But coordinating scouting reports... you can absolutely do this with the forums, right? Yes it's a lot easier with a database, but are you truly saying that DEMON is doing something that regular metagaming doesn't already do? To put it even more briefly, are you agreeing that it's okay to coordinate information through metagaming, and are just objecting to how easy we're making it for ourselves? --Hatchet Job 00:12, 3 August 2006 (BST)
Bob, I don't see your logic, here. ...Evidently. To re-summarize briefly, the issue is that you're making things easier for yourself in a manner that other players can't reasonably be expected to manage. That's pretty much the textbook definition of an unfair advantage. --Jimbo Bob ASSU! 00:18, 3 August 2006 (BST)
Okay - it sounds like we agree that what we are doing is not unfair. Your beef is that how we are doing it is unfair. Do I understand you there?--Hatchet Job 00:30, 3 August 2006 (BST)
Americanism: "if we made two bombs, we could make 2 thousands!". You just don't get that the action itself is not really a big problem problem, but the massivity of the information you get. It's not like everyone in your group is going to report on a forum if they don't have DEMON anymore, not even once per day, and you do that 48 times per day now! And the conflictive issue in my oppinion is that you have that extremely efficient system (it is) and everyone else doesn't, making it unfair and destroying the spirit of the game itself. --Matthew Fahrenheit YRC | T | W! 00:20, 3 August 2006 (BST)
Matthew, everyone else can have that extremely efficient system. We don't have anything that anyone else with a modicum of coding experience can't make for themselves. And we don't have the obligation to share our code with everyone else. That's part of the fun. Far from destroying the spirit of the game, we are entirely in line with that spirit. This metagaming is part of the game, like it or not. And the progression and evolution of the game is part of its attraction to many of us.--Hatchet Job 00:35, 3 August 2006 (BST)
I had no idea that simple logic was so hard to understand. Let me try to set this out again:

You have access to information from a bazillion characters that are not your own. You have access to a bazillion characters that are not in the DEM. Your bazillion cheating characters all transmit everything they know back to the DEM database. The DEM database is hidden and locked away from everyone else. Anyone with access to the database can log in and have access to all those bazillions of characters information. Am I clear yet? –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 00:24, 3 August 2006 (BST)

Your assumptions are incorrect, Bob. We do not have access to a bazillion characters that are not in the DEM, and there is no cheating involved. 'Cheating is a reserved word, Bob. I would save it for when you really mean it. The DEM database is of course hidden and locked away. Why isn't that our right? I understand your logic, now. But I hope you understand that logic based on faulty assumptions leads to just as wrong a conclusion.--Hatchet Job 00:30, 3 August 2006 (BST)
So you're saying that every single DEM member turns off DEMON before they switch characters, Hatchet? If that's not the case, they you do have access to a bazillion non-DEM characters, Hatchet. I really do mean "cheating," because I am not stupid, Hatchet. It isn't your right, because you have far more information than is possible to gain with fair means, Hatchet. I understand that faulty logic leads to wrong conclusions, Hatchet. Do you, Hatchet? Surely if DEMON is no more efficient than a forum then you wouldn't mind just using a forum and updating it manually, Hatchet. –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 00:33, 3 August 2006 (BST)
So you're saying that every single player seperates there character completly? How can we be sure? I guess we'll just have to trust them. Or hey why don't ya just be rude on the wiki to people who are here to talk to you about your problem. Geesh they made you a mod here? Why can't you be civil?--Kristi of the Dead 00:36, 3 August 2006 (BST)
I agree, let's change the subject so that we can avoid the truth. –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 00:40, 3 August 2006 (BST)
That is (at least part of) what is being said. I can't say that I'm happy with the way this is going - getting to flame war-ish fast. But I think at least some would be happy if there was a way to stop your tools from acting through accounts who aren't part of the DEM. --Darth Sensitive Talk W! 00:42, 3 August 2006 (BST)
First off, every single DEM player doesn't even have DEMON. I'd put it close to only ten or twenty percent. Second, of the remaining players - those of which who have non-zombie alts not in the DEM (recall zombies already can't deposit information) - I would not characterize that number as anywhere near a bazillion. Not even half a bazillion. ;-) But... If Alex were to implement your recommendation - make each player actively turn on IMP as they log in as a different character - would that solve the problem? It does seem unfair to me that this group gets to dictate extra coding work onto our people. But if this would smooth things over, we could talk about it as an option.--Hatchet Job 00:43, 3 August 2006 (BST)
Do me a favor, would you? Please learn to indent properly? Thanks. Now: it doesn't matter if only a single DEM member uses DEMON. The entire system is flawed from the ground up. Locking out non-DEM characters from submitting information is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't come close to solving the problem. If you, in addition to keeping it DEM-only, also allow access to the database from everyone else — not just some mods, sometimes — then that would be close to solving the problem. An even better alternative would be opening the DEMON database and extension up to everyone, so that everyone has access to the intelligence. After all, if it's not giving you an unfair advantage, why keep it secret? –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 00:55, 3 August 2006 (BST)
Whatever happened to the "THE GAME HAS CHANGED. EVOLVE OR DIE. LEARN TO METAGAME BETTER." Seems like people have. Sure, it's not in the spirit of the game for the DEM to have access to so much data; but it's also against the spirit of the game for zombies to communicate with such a degree of accuracy. Yet, everyone does it. Learn to deal with it, don't be such a goddamn whiner. "Waaaaaah, they worked harder than us! We want what they developed!"GuyIncogneeto 10:42, August 6th, 2006 (EST)
I agree Darth, and I think that is something that is entirely doable and reasonable as well. Of course my word isn't law in the DEM. I think that owuld address your first complaint on the front page. The second one I would argue that had anybody here had access to our forums you would see numerous complete and detailed sitreps comparable to what's on the DEMON. That and the fact that NOT EVERYONE IN THE DEM has the DEMON tool addresses that accusation. As for the 3rd I would have no problems pushing for a public resource simliar to the danger levle map the wiki tried to do. Which would address that problem. And the 4th problem seems to be an accusation against all big groups and I don't think I can addrss that.I would also like to add the the MotA have a tool that lets them pick out the choicest targets in a building by copying the page code into it. Isn't this too an unfair advantage by your definition? And bob the diference is intiative. Write your own code. DO IT YOURSELF.--Kristi of the Dead 00:57, 3 August 2006 (BST)
Please be civil. –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 00:59, 3 August 2006 (BST)
Oh you are the jokster aren't you--Kristi of the Dead 01:04, 3 August 2006 (BST)
So you're saying that, in addition to additional hurdles to assure that data deposition is from DEM personnel only, that the database be then made available to everyone? That's not a reasonable suggestion. We keep the data to ourselves because it does give us an advantage (although not an unfair one). If it were made public, the information could be (fairly) used by our enemies to make our lives more difficult. While there is nothing unfair about PKers or GKers or RKers or zombie metagaming hordes, they could use the information for their own objectives, which are not in line with the goals of the DEM. --Hatchet Job 01:12, 3 August 2006 (BST)

Section 7

I don't speak for the DEM as a whole but I do represent the MFD a member group. I don't believe that this utility is in any way cheating, we are nt spying or using information we could not have gathered thorugh other means. The way that we organize our data and provide it to our members is frankly our business. The information provided in this utility is also found in posts on our sitrep forums whih are also avaialbe to our members. Further all the nasty accusations on your front page about DEMON, I would like to point out, can actually be accoplished with ones own eyes and fingers. Personally I'd be in favor of making the information gathered from it made public in a more bandwidth friendly form. But I'd rather do it as a service to the people of Malton than under threat of some sort of "punishment" from you guys.--Kristi of the Dead 20:56, 2 August 2006 (BST)


Section 8

Hi. I am Hatchet Job, the Assistant Chief of the Malton Fire Department, one of the branches of the DEM. If you have any questions about the DEM resource known as DEMON, I would be happy to help field them for you. I fear that the issue, only a day or two old, has really blown out of proportion. I have read through the article and discussion pages, and I am not sure I understand the logical leap from our database's capabilities and usage to "multi-abuse". Could you detail this?
To clear up a couple misconceptions:
1) The deposition of scouting data into our database is entirely voluntary. A DEM member has to install the extention for it to work.
2) There is no data gleaned from this extension that is not already available to the player himself. The database is a really just a glorified compilation of scouting reports made available to all DEM members.
3) As far as I understand your meaning, there is nothing unethical about the use of this tool.
4) While, yes, players who have installed DEMON must remember to turn it off when they use non-DEM characters (if they wish), no data is automatically reported from dead or zombie characters.
Perhaps the best place to begin this discussion is with the statment, "The information available via DEMON to any given DEM member is vastly greater and more detailed than he or she would have access to via his or her own exploration or normal intra-group intelligence sharing." Could you define what you mean by "normal intra-group intelligence sharing"? Because I believe that DEMON, at its core, is really only a sophisticated and well-designed tool for intelligence sharing within the DEM, and nothing else. This would definitely give the DEM a well-earned advantage, but I don't see how it is an unfair advantage.--Hatchet Job 21:01, 2 August 2006 (BST)

A question, if you please, Red Rum has a similar tool which allows us to find the last updated location of anyone we want, it works in a similar way to DEMON. If I began using it to track DEM members and pk them, would you claim that as an unfair advantage?--The General T Sys U! P! F! 21:28, 2 August 2006 (BST)

General - in my opinion the scenario you describe would not be unfair.--Hatchet Job 21:44, 2 August 2006 (BST)
My personal viewpoint is that putting the data in by hand is okay, but having a bot/program to do it for you is not. (I think this is what everyone else is getting at...is it!?!?) Jonny12 W! 21:35, 2 August 2006 (BST)
Jonny - the line you draw there appears to me to be somewhat arbitrary. Instead of using pencil and paper, can I write my scouting reports into a text file? Could I then use a cut-and-paste feature to enter these scouting reports? Can I merge my reports and those of my allies into a common repository? Can I make that repository searchable? The leap from there to an automatic entry of the things I want to include in my scouting report doesn't seem to be too much of a leap. It may seem "too easy", but isn't that the point of these computers in the first place? And there's a big difference between "too easy" and "unfair", in my opinion.--Hatchet Job 21:42, 2 August 2006 (BST)

Section 9

Addressing the 1st point, while it would be possible to fix this, it would require additional hits on the server /unless/ Kevan could be persuaded to return a character's group affiliation on the map page. Otherwise, the scout would have to retrive the current character's profile number, open their profile, and parse the code for the group. (Or, I suppose a script in the extention could be written to simply turn it off depending on which character was selected, but looking at the extention code, I don't believe the writer knows how to do this, nor do I.
A simpler solution would be to make it clear that the program does not distinguish group affiliations, and then trust the user to disable the extention between characters. This, of course, requires trust of the user, but if they can't be trusted to do this, can they be trusted not to put a DEM group affiliation in their profile, or not to set the extention to record all characters?
I'll skip the second point because I, too, don't see a problem with efficientcy, though I DO have an issue with it highlighting Buildings that contain a known PKer or more than 2 zombies.
Addressing the third point: Seemingly easy fix, just make the info available to everyone. The problem I ran into: Bandwidth. Since, because of Bandwidth, that's not feasable, simply make the extention source available, and let other groups build their own.
Addressing the 4th point. It is exactly for this reason that I obtained a copy of Autoscout from a member of DEM willing to send it, and created my own scouter. I am willing to distribute the version of this extention to other groups so they may reverse-engineer their own version of DEMON as I did. Unfortunatly, I wanted to make this AND my profile database public access, but the almost immediate spike in bandwidth from just a few people using it resulted in the owner of Soul-Fantasy throwing a fit. As such, I am open to take requests, but access has to stay restricted to registered users. --SirensT RR 20:52, 4 August 2006 (BST)
Sorry about putting this on the wrong page initially. I guess I wasn't paying attention >>;; --SirensT RR 22:42, 4 August 2006 (BST)

Section 10

New day, new section. Anyway... This whole DEMON-thing is totally out of genre. The city is way too primitive to have that sort of tools in hand. I can go with UDTool or even manual metagaming, but fully automatic tool with large database is just way too much. If you can explain DEMON from the view of your character, then you can keep it. If not, then I'm not just gonna stand by and watch. --Niilomaan 17:22, 5 August 2006 (BST)

The DEM was a pre-existing part of the governmental infrastructure before the outbreak. Before the quarantine, the MPD and the MFD had to react to problems and coordinate movement throughout the city. The DEM coordinated missing person searches, put out APB's, responded to fires... all of this through sophisticated organization and communication. The DEMON is an extension of that network that we are trained to use.
This question is more appropriate to zombies, who should only be speaking to one another in zombish, but don't. Or the wiki; how is so much information about Malton wrapped up in such an easily accessable form. Or group forums? At least with the DEM an argument can be made. --Kiki Lottaboobs 21:14, 5 August 2006 (BST)
Hehhe.. Nice try. The problem here is, that DEM is not some small elite group of trained professionals, but a huge mindless newbie horde. Cut down your numbers from hundreds to dozens, and I might just agree.
Only reason why zombies NEED to use forums and such, is that there are almost as many zombies as there are survivors. This game would be more fun, if it would be about surviving in the city, not about war against the undead. --Niilomaan 21:31, 5 August 2006 (BST)
You are entitled to your opinion, here, as are we in the DEM. But you are talking shades of metagaming gray. How big can a group be before it is no longer allowed to use these efficient scouting report collation tools? Is there a subsequent limit above which you are not allowed to maintain a private forum? By extension, the largest group of them all is allowed to use the most powerful metagaming tool of them all: the entire UD population can use the wiki. Now, is that fair? Yeah, I'm going to extremes. Sorry about that. But the point is that trying to draw lines like this is entirely arbitrary, very subject to bias, and is out of the realm of "unfair". It's one thing to say that we're doing too good of a job and the game might get unbalanced because of it. If that's the beef, take it up with the big guy, Kevan. We would be happy to be part of those discussions and support any decision he makes. But it's entirely another thing to call it "unfair" or "cheating". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hatchet Job (talkcontribs) .Sorry about that.--Hatchet Job 22:11, 5 August 2006 (BST)
You think it's gray area? I say it's red! Red as the blood inside your safehouse will be! Exact number to use that tool? Dozen! (That being 12 in numbers.) The wiki is a normal part of this game. Your tool is not. Tool.. Hehhe. --Niilomaan GRR! 23:20, 5 August 2006 (BST)
Police and Fire Departments have CB radios. That is consistent with reality. Now, we have to make a leap to accept zombies, but zombies using forums, zombies planning? Zombies using message boards is ridiculous. A Police officer calling dispatch is commonplace. If you want to choose something to rage against as flying in the face of reality, the former, not the latter is more obvious. --Kiki Lottaboobs 20:34, 6 August 2006 (BST)
With zombies? Can just call it their "hive mind". Also walkie talkies and everything other than cell phones or radios were voted down. --Niilomaan GRR! 21:57, 6 August 2006 (BST)
I don't think whether or not something was voted into acceptance on the suggestions page makes any difference here. --SirensT RR 22:02, 6 August 2006 (BST)
"Hive mind"? That's really your story? Then why the Feeding Groan? Come onnn...you're spinning this badly. --Kiki Lottaboobs 10:30, 7 August 2006 (BST)

Section 11?

Hell, if this is in the wrong place I apologise but you havn't exactly made it easy to work out where you want new comments put...

On the front page Bob Hammero makes a few points that I found a little interesting to read...

"1. It allows information from non-DEM characters to be compiled with the information from DEM members."

Well from what's been said on your pages surely only information from someone with this tool would be compiled? And since you've already said this tool is only going out to members of the DEM then the only information coming back is being provided only by members of the DEM? Which would mean it's not information from non-DEM characters wouldn't it? O_o

"2. It provides an enormously unfair advantage, because, face it: what group is going to manually update information on the barricades, player counts, graffiti messages, etc., for every square they visit? And log every PKing event? And every generator status? Etc."

I know our group used to when we were a little smaller. I can't speak for everyone but I know when we were working in one or two suburbs we had a fairly accurate map just from reports we were entering.

"3. The information that is gathered is not available to everyone; only to DEM members."

Surely information gathered and put on the RRF forums is only available to RRF members? Or information about the Big Bashes plans is only available to certain members of the Big Bash? Should they disclose all of their information?

"4. From all of this, the DEM has an unnatural advantage over non-DEM players, because any given DEM player has access to far more information about the game than he or she would be able to obtain on his or her own."

See above comment. No matter how you put it. An arguement like that can equally be applied to any group because most groups have a 'members only' section. Members of the RRF have an unnatural advantage over non-RRF players because they have access to information that other players do not. Members of any group have that. (And aprart from anything else Mia has said she has a retro-engineered version - I don't see anyone telling her to get rid of it.)

As for what Matthew said about cheating... You would still need someone in that square to check the barricades right? From what everyone's said here it only updates on the DEMs end when someone with their scouting tool checks that area. So, even if you assume that you have a bot constantly refreshing the results unless someone with the tool checks that area the bot would never know the 'cades had gone down.

That's just my thoughts having read through what's been spread over the pages where information is available. --Tethran 14:05, 6 August 2006 (BST)

  1. It's for USERS of DEM, not characters. What if he has three chars and only one is in DEM? Then there's 2 characters that can gather and use the info without being in the group.
  2. And that's what you SHOULD be using.
  3. That's why these rules were made. To prevent users NOT in RRF from reading (spying) their forum. It's unfair. Same goes to other groups. Only public information is put in the wiki.
  4. No comments on this one. I don't actually know too much about that Mia's version and I wouldn't support it either.
    Whole DEMON thing is totally out of genre and ruining the game from the view of role playing.. --Niilomaan GRR! 14:27, 6 August 2006 (BST)
I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed a lot of my points.
  1. You argue that it's unfair because someone can have multiple characters and 2 of those might not be DEM and might feed information in? Well, if we're talking about mights and possibles and maybes then it's possible that someone in any group could input information into the group from a character that's not in that group. I don't see you going after those groups for what might happen.
  2. You said that #2 is what we should be doing. Right. So how is someone using the DEMON tool doing any different really? Beyond it being automated? I can't really see a huge difference.
  3. I was never talking about spying on another. I don't know where you got that from. It seems that people are saying the DEM tool in unfair because it uses information gained by one person to benifit another. I was pointing out that all groups do this in one form or another and if you want the DEM to release their information then why arn't you going after every other group and asking them to release their private information too?
--Tethran 14:38, 6 August 2006 (BST)
The problem is mainly the automatic nature of the tool. It reduces the time and effort involved where groups without such a tool cannot compete. While that is something I find distasteful, there is also the fact that it tracks profiles of PKers and their last location. That's just wrong on a fundamental level.
The Red Rum scouter is even more insidious, and don't think that Mia has not been talked to about that. The worst aspect of Red Rum's scouter is the fact that it automatically tracks every profile it comes into contact with. The mutli-abusable aspect of both Red Rum's scouter and the DEM's is something I am most concerned about. Many people in the DEM have alts in other groups, and that information is automatically sent to the DEM. It automates the multi abuse. This sort of thing is something I want removed from the Red Rum scouter as well.
Were there a check to ensure that only characters who are supposed to have the tool could send it, this would be about halfway over and done with. The other aspect is the existence of such a tool at all. The CDF has one, the DEM has one, Red Rum has one, the MotA have a tool to choose choice targets. There is nothing wrong with this in and of itself, but I would appreciate a more altrusitic side from the groups in question: make the source available so that other groups can form their own tool — not every group has a member with the technical expertise to pull something like this off. –Xoid STFU! 15:09, 6 August 2006 (BST)
And that Xoid, is in my oppinion the only valid complaint I've seen. We (I) have said that on more than once occasion we'd be more than willing to provide and on off switch for the tool. So that alts don't provide information for us, and if you'd look up at what Mia wrote you'd see the source is available from her. We (the DEM)are currently waiting on this body to decide what exactly the problem with DEMON is and get back to us so that we can respond. Is that going to happen or are we just waiting for no reason?--Kristi of the Dead 19:27, 6 August 2006 (BST)
I completely agree with Xoid. As I noted on the article page about the need to prevent multi-abuse and on section 1 I also asked for open source code. Were a simple means put in place to allow only DEM members to contribute and at least a basic version of the code available I think the DEM would have more than reconciled their work. (Also: doesn't Firefox as a doctrine of principal require all of it's extensions to be open-source?). Personally I think even asking for the source code is a bit much, but it seems it would address a lot of other people's concerns. YbborT 20:08, 6 August 2006 (BST)
So, it's only being considered unfair because you can't write your own tool? I think this pretty effectively obliterates any kind of case you were trying to make and lays bare your true intention. How is it that all of your objections evaporate if you have the tool? There are no more objections with alt abuse or automation if you can just your hands on the tool yourself. You're making a "x is an outrage for reasons A, B, C and D. Give me x and it would be okay." argument. So, how is this different from a shakedown? --Kiki Lottaboobs 20:54, 6 August 2006 (BST)
Oh yeah.. If one has a gun that makes him dangerous to others, how do we respond? We give guns to everybody! C'mon... That would be just stupid. But is it a gun, if it only slings a few small rocks? What we need here is somekind of a line. Not just some damn arbitory gray area. We agree to this and next thing all those nice little bots are allowed.
I say we draw a line in anything that works automatically. After that we only need to decide what is a large enough user input to make the tool legal. --Niilomaan GRR! 22:06, 6 August 2006 (BST)
I'm sorry but that's a strawman arguement bots will never be allowed and you pointing to how bad bots are as a reason we should ban DEMON is faulty logic. If bots are what you fear then make a rule against bots and fight people that are using bots don't use the slippery slope arguement it doesn't really work here. And banning anything automatic would ban quite a few group utilities that I know of right now just off the top of my head.--Kristi of the Dead 22:18, 6 August 2006 (BST)
I mean that where goes the line? Bots are just automatic programs to control your characters actions. What's so different with one controlling your characters communications? Because those happen in metagame? The CFT rules don't seem to cover bots, but if they did, I'm pretty sure that this would be part of that. Using a program to run your communications is much like metagame botting. And by the way.. I got no problem with banning other automatic utilities. --Niilomaan GRR! 22:56, 6 August 2006 (BST)
So you'll be happy to attempt to stop all communitcations using AIM / MSN / IRC / etc? Fundamentally what's the difference between someone going on AIM and asking their friend where the nearest VS+2 or below building is or going to a map generated by a scouting tool to check? --Tethran 22:59, 6 August 2006 (BST)
Only if your AIM does it without any user input. READ. --Niilomaan GRR! 23:17, 6 August 2006 (BST)
...I think you missed my point there... I was trying to point out how is it different if the information is gleaned by asking someone or by reading a map that's been created from what that person saw? You'lld still be getting the same information. --Tethran 23:28, 6 August 2006 (BST)
Why does it matter if it's you pressing the barricade button, or that program? You still get the same results. When you get the answer to that one, then I can answer to yours. --Niilomaan GRR! 23:32, 6 August 2006 (BST)
Completely different situation. I have to be awake, behind my computer and controling my character to make use of either talking to someone on AIM or checking a map. A bot by it's very nature does not need someone behind the computer whereas when I click the barricade button I have to be there. Hence it does matter whether it's a person clicking the barricade button or a bot going for it. --Tethran 23:37, 6 August 2006 (BST)
Bah.. Minor difference. The whole problem is that the utility does your communications for you. I could agree to exactly the same system, if you just chose the amount of people and barricade levels from dropdown menu and manually marked any possible PKers, but this is more like telepathy. You don't do anything, your char doesn't do anything, but the word still gets around. I'm not talking about the results, but about the means to get to those. --Niilomaan GRR! 23:45, 6 August 2006 (BST)

"Minor difference"?!? You just asked what the difference was between a user clicking barricades and a bot builing barricades and then described it as a minor difference? And as I understand it your character does have to do something - you can't just map it from standing still and being logged off. As I understand it you have to be logged on and using the character. --Tethran 23:50, 6 August 2006 (BST)

Let me try this one: "...I think you missed my point there..." Yep. That worked nicely. --Niilomaan GRR! 23:54, 6 August 2006 (BST)
You asked me what the difference between a bot hitting the barricade button and me doing it was. When I answered that you then said "Bah. Minor difference." I fail to see how I missed the point there. You thinking of trying to use this as justification for bots or something Niilomaan? Also. You still havn't answered my question despite the fact that I answered yours. --Tethran 23:56, 6 August 2006 (BST)
Oh.. Sorry about that. It's 2 AM here and I've only slept for few hours last night... Anyway. The answer is 42. Didn't see that coming huh? I'll try to remember the question tomorrow. --Niilomaan GRR! 00:07, 7 August 2006 (BST)
Ah. Here we see Homo No-Answerus (a relitive of Homo Sapiens but an even closer relation to Homo Politicianus.) When faced with a question that he cannot answer without conceeding a point to the person asking the question he refuses to answer and despirately tries to change the subject. tHHG2ttG is a great book but I don't think that quoting '42' is going to answer the question I asked. --Tethran 00:18, 7 August 2006 (BST)
Hehheh... That's kinda funny. Well I'm awake now and ready to continue this. As you see I kinda forgot what we were talking about at the middle of that conversation.
So.. You say that bots are OK, because you don't need to be on the computer, but with that tool you only don't need to be on forums or IRC or such, but you still need to be logged in game? Hmm.. That is a minor difference if you ask me, but it still answers to my question. Damn.. Well luckily I didn't promise to answer with that same reason. And now when I look back, I see that I have already answered. The difference between you using normal metagame, is that you don't need to, the word is still getting around. Clear case of Metagamus-Bottus. --Niilomaan GRR! 09:08, 7 August 2006 (BST)
Once again you've missed my point. I was saying that bots are not ok because you don't need to have any input beyond the orignal programming. --Tethran 12:20, 7 August 2006 (BST)
Yeah yeah. I know. And you were right. And after I noticed that your answer didn't help my cause a bit, I returned back to my original defence/attack or whatever side I'm on here. But it all doesn't matter anyway, as you can see from my latest post at the end of this page. There's no way to stop people from using automatic utilities, so we might just find some other solution. --Niilomaan GRR! 12:27, 7 August 2006 (BST)

Section 12

I am going to be busy with some other things, and will not have the time to engage in this discussion as fully as I would like, so Xoid will be taking my place as the representative from ASS. –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 19:16, 6 August 2006 (BST)

Oh joy. I can already tell this is going to work out well. sigh. (Yes, I know I asked to be substituted in if you were going to be too busy to handle this, but I still don't see this as a pleasant task in the least.) –Xoid STFU! 03:35, 7 August 2006 (BST)

Okay. One thing that a lot of people are mistaken about are thinking that this is the CFT picking on the DEM. Trust me, it doesn't matter who has such a tool (auto scouter without checks on which character is using it and profile tracking), they'll be eventually put through the same thing: a request to eliminate these unfair features. These tools by their very nature are an unfair advantage for any group to have over another, but I've demonstrated my willingness to allow their existence. I would much prefer that the source be available, but my major concerns are the two issues I hit upon already. The DEM has indicated that they are willing to fix those two concerns, and I have an easy solution to Mia's problem about determining whether a character should be allowed to return data. Every time you load a page, the character's name is displayed. Simply extract that and match it to a list of "authorised information doners". Either that or allow the tool to be turned off. Either option is acceptable in my eyes.

To address Kiki's rather insulting "You're just jealous." tripe, I may remind her that I had access to DEMON when I was in the DEM, and I have access to the Red Rum scouter as a member of Red Rum. I am not jealous. I'm worried about the abuses that are possible with either tool. For the short time I used it, DEMON gave me a tremendous advantage in knowing what I was running into. Red Rum's scouter has been an enormous advantage in that aspect too. While I have not used the profile tracking capaility in either, tell me: what happens if someone with a vendetta uses it? As long as you have enough people using the tool to ensure good coverage of suburbs you can completely ruin someone's fun — griefing them repeatedly. –Xoid STFU! 03:35, 7 August 2006 (BST)

Xoid, I did not intend to come off as insulting. The point I was trying to make was that you can't say that something is unfair one moment, and then say that you want it and throughout that transition maintain any kind of moral authority. Once you establish a desire to participate in tactics that the CFT claims are unfair, you effectively illustrate a desire to engage in tactics you believe are unfair. I hope that's clear. You can't say that the DEMON is cheating when you don't have it but turn and say that it isn't cheating if you do have it.
I do think that the essence of this issue is that you don't have it, that's my opinion. But, I don't want to be insulting, I apologize if that's how I'm coming across. --Kiki Lottaboobs 10:25, 7 August 2006 (BST)
The reason that it came off as insulting is because I'm not jealous. Why would I be? I have my own spy satellite at my disposal in the form of Red Rum's scouter. To counter your point of claiming inconsistency, let me remind you that I have never once thought for a moment that it is fair. After a brief period of using it well before the CFT came into existance, I haven't looked at it or used it since. I know from experience that it is unfair to the 39,060 odd other players of Urban Dead that don't have the equivalent of a spy satellite at their disposal.
Tell me, what are the odds of actually convincing the DEM to do away with DEMON entirely? In case you haven't read the other sections of this page, it's pointless even trying — you won't admit that you are doing something wrong. Even if the CFT could convince the DEM to dump it... the cat is out of the bag. The CDF have their own version, and Red Rum has ours. Even if you could get all three groups known to have these programs to eliminate them, there is still the possibility that someone will make another. You can not unring a bell. Instead of trying to supress this, which is never going to work, I'm instead trying to negate the imbalance.
If I could get an assurance from the DEM, CDF and Red Rum that they'd destory these programs I'd be estatic. I consider this an impossibility. I have encountered resistance to this request at every turn. A high ranking CDF officer was most vehement about it "not being wrong", the DEM has continually denied that and there are even those within Red Rum who are unwilling to give it up. –Xoid STFU! 11:08, 7 August 2006 (BST)
Damn.. I hate it, but he's right. There's no way we can just tell people not-to-do something. If that would work, then there would be no bots to fight. --Niilomaan GRR! 11:42, 7 August 2006 (BST)
I still haven't seen a reason why it is wrong. "Other people aren't skilled enough to make one of their own" just doesn't strike me as a real reason why it's unfair. Some people aren't skilled enough to get an A+ in their courses at university, and this can end up penalizing them when they're trying to get a job: will you make a petition to get rid of grading systems? How about this: I don't have the time to spend hours and hours on UD monitoring my character, is it unfair that other people can kill me when I'm offline? Probably, some people have nothing else to do! And for the record, at the present time, CDF does not have a (working) tool that allows them to record and display all this information. Server load killed the last one, which (again, for the record) was open to all people of UD as long as they were willing to take their cell-phone snapshots and upload them to the CDF photo analyser to be added to the database. --Shadowstar 16:15, 7 August 2006 (BST)
Thanks for the red herring. The argument is not that "other people aren't skilled enough to make on of their own", but that "the tool is an insurmountable, artifical advantage". It is analogous to 'Rubberband AI' or steroids, IMHO. –Xoid STFU! 17:15, 7 August 2006 (BST)
The main argument I've seen on this page has been that other people can't create it, so it gives an unfair advantage to groups who have one over groups who do not. Otherwise, making the tools open source would not fix it for anyone, because it would still be wrong. How exactly do you think it's an "insurmountable advantage" to know how many zombies are somewhere, or what the barricade is like? I'll grant that it's artificial, but then, I wouldn't call zombies natural, and if that's "natural" in terms of "part of the game," I'd note that there is nothing natural about being able to telepathically communicate (through messageboards) either. I'd say it's more like information everyone could use, rather than an "insurmountable advantage." --Shadowstar 17:26, 7 August 2006 (BST)
Zombies are zombies. They can have somekind of a Hive Mind as far as we know. This is fig... ehm.. conversation is about survivors. --Niilomaan GRR! 21:06, 7 August 2006 (BST)
I can't believe I'm still reading this. It's an artifical advantage in the same way that that China's low wages are.
You know how American electronic's manufacturers can't compete with the Asian electronics manufacturers? You only need to give a tiny amount of money to one to get the same results as the other. It's the same principle here. To get the same level of information as DEMON (even if you had the same number of people making reports for every square), you need to put in a metric fuckload more work. .: unfair advantage.
To the second part of your claim, "I wouldn't call zombies natural". That is completely irrelevant. It is not the fact that DEMON is artifical but that it is an articial advantage, giving someone with access to it an edge that cannot be matched without an unreasonable amount of effort.
Thirdly, about message boards — also irrelevant. Both sides have access to that advantage. Anyone who chooses not to use one is doing so of their own free will. –Xoid STFU! 07:42, 8 August 2006 (BST)
Your point about the electronics-- well, that's fine, but here's the thing. The person who creates the tracker and maintains the tracker puts in a "metric fuckload" of work. They don't just appear fully formed on the net. I left CDF and, whoops, their tracker died. Someone has to personally put in a lot of effort to keep these things running. The trackers can be matched with a not-unreasonable amount of effort (mind you, it's still a lot, a good week or two development up front assuming you can work full-time on the project), though it does take a bit of skill.
The second point you attribute to me seems to be a bit misplaced-- I did say that the point was silly, and didn't really expect a response to the fact that zombies are unnatural. The whole game is artificial, of course, real life isn't going to have that many people free running about the place.
But your final point brings me back to where I was in the first place. By saying that message boards are not the same simply because everyone can use them, you're saying that the trackers are fair if everyone has access to them. That means it's not a bot, which would be wrong no matter how many people had them and were able to use them. (I assume that CFT would agree with me that bots are unfair no matter how many people have them, and whether or not I could adapt one to work for zombies?) Either it is fair or it isn't. If everyone else chooses not to create and use a tracker, not to learn javascript and php and mysql, or just javascript and ruby on rails, isn't that their own free will and/or dedication to UD...? Learning a programming language isn't that hard. --Shadowstar 16:04, 8 August 2006 (BST)
It would be fair if one of the following were true:
  1. DEMON never existed
  2. DEMON were not automatic
  3. Everyone had access to DEMON.
Now, we know №1 is an impossibility. №2 is interesting. We know that you don't care that a neurosurgeon might have better things to do with his time than learn a programming language, that students are pressed enough for time as it is, that a father may wish to spend time with his children, y'know, raising his family and all that, or that people have lives outside of Urban Dead. The reason you don't care is because, apparently, learning a programming language is easy, designing said tracker is easy, getting the money to buy a server to run it is easy, and finding the time to waste on doing all that (because some prick had to take survivor metagaming to the next level despite the fact that zombies were weaker at the time) is easy. .: we can cross that possibility out, now can't we? Seems that №3 is the only viable option left.
Now, were there some actual effort required on more than one person, (i.e. DEMON was not automatic) there wouldn't be an issue with it being kept locked away. The only effort required with DEMON is from a tiny, miniscule minority of people at absolute most. Programmer, maintenance. That's it. The rest need do nothing whatsoever. When, to have their intel remain even partially competitive, everyone in a group of the same size is required to put in equal or greater amounts of work than a couple of programmers — ongoing work, mind you — then don't be fucking surprised that people consider it unfair. –Xoid STFU! 15:59, 9 August 2006 (BST)
Free servers are a great thing, aren't they? I'm running my Beta off of a free server. I wouldn't get enough bandwidth per month to make it fully public, of course, but I think that it might be enough for a small portion of the CDF to use it. (My trials aren't over yet, so I'm just using what I can see to do it.)
Show me where I said that learning a language is easy, designing a tracker is easy, and finding the time to "waste" on it is easy. I have a life too, I didn't say I spent two weeks straight working on anything. I said that that's how long it takes. None of those things are "easy" to get past, but neither are they "insurmountable" challenges.
If I could give everyone access to the CDF version of it (when it's out of testing) I damn well would. I can't. Sadly, I am constrained, just as you said, by not having the money to put out that kind of service.
People get what they put in. If you're a neurosurgeon and don't have time, fine, you're allowed to not have time, though I wonder that there's no one else who does. If you're a student who has no time, fine (though I think I'd disagree, since I built the original while I was a student in Uni, but whatever). If you have children that you want to spend time with, that's great, you should spend time with your kids. But that's not a reason to complain about people who find the time to spend the extra hours doing what they need to do in order to get their information into a tidy format that people can quickly read and scan. Is it unfair that I stayed up way past my bed time, being totally cranky at work? For the other employees, maybe it was. Haha. If it's so hard to make that you can't find the time to do it, why in the world do you think that those of us who've made them should scrap all our hard work?
I'm not surprised that people think it's unfair. That's the nature of the world-- to not understand that there are tradeoffs to every system, whether you're doing things manually or automatically. --Shadowstar 16:26, 9 August 2006 (BST)
The difference is: you were the one who spared that time, not the other members of your group, yet they profit equally from your labour. –Xoid STFU! 18:18, 9 August 2006 (BST)
Xoid, you and I need to sit down and have a chat. --SirensT RR 19:27, 9 August 2006 (BST)

I hope no one minds me taking Conndraka's position on this assembly for a moment. Some of you (or all) may remember the situation the DHPD was involved in a while back. One thing I learned from that event is, it doesn't matter if the activity in question is technically legal or not. If the rest of the community thinks you are cheating or abusing the rules you are better off sucking it up and finding a solution rather than fighting them and arguing your position. The negative image is much harder to recover from than giving something up for the betterment of the community. We in the DHPD learned this lesson too late, hopefully the DEM will do better and join the Coalition. DHPD-PRC FmrPFCBob 22:15, 9 August 2006 (BST)

Um. I'll have to nitpick that. CFT has 429 members according to group membership as found on the Urbandead stats page. DEM+CDF (not counting Red Rum, but all members apparent on the stats page) is 521. Technically, you're not a majority of the community yet. (Edit: Note that I am not using this as an argument, as my other replies have been. I don't believe in tyranny of the majority, and if everyone else were using bots, I still wouldn't use them or recommend the use by CDF members. This is just a technicality and should be treated as such.) --Shadowstar 23:05, 9 August 2006 (BST)
The DEM has never been invited to join the Coalition. We didn't know about its existence until a member stumbled across mention of it elsewhere on the wiki. Very, very odd given the size of the DEM, and that we had always previously been on the forefront of adopting fair-play policies, including as a direct result of negotiations with groups like the RRF. But by the time our members got here the assertion had already been made by a significant portion of the Assembly that we needed to throw away DEMON. Well, really you mean IMP, but why bother with facts or technical details, just light the torches and grab the pitchforks. Bringing us into the discussion appears to have been an afterthought, perhaps just because you had to eventually inform someone in the organization of your decision? It was what, maybe 24 hours after I made my first post here that the 'Assembly' decided there was no point in further bantering with the DEM? Granted this talk page was probably not ideal and grew large fast, but certainly no further attempt to communicate officially with DEM leadership, request technical details of how DEMON works or any such have been made to my knowledge, which makes me wonder just how this Coalition for 'Fairness' will come to a fair, informed decision on anything.
Rest assured we are observing these ... proceedings with interest. We will consider carefully the points brought up here, some of which we already know we will address. But it seems to me our participation is not required, or even desired, in these proceedings. I appreciate your concern about public opinion FmrPFCBob, and share them; but the strong opinion of many members of this Assembly aside, I do not see a groundswell of opposition from the general UD community to our efficient use of public information, gathered through the regular activity of members while playing Urban Dead (though granted with a lot less typing and copy&paste work then we used to have to do). And the DEM has certainly put its time, effort and resources into tools that it has made public, such as the Revive Request tool, and intends to continue to do so. If the CFT ever comes to a concrete majority decision, the DEM will give it due consideration and I'm sure will issue an official reply. --Gilant talk|DEM 23:58, 9 August 2006 (BST).
To be fair, no groups have been invited to join the CFT. Every group in here has found the site of it's own accord and signed itself up. I can't say that this has been handled well at all. The CFT didn't start by contacting you, and didn't come up with clear, agreed upon points of contention. I'm sorry that this is going poorly, because it reflects badly on both organizations. --Darth Sensitive Talk W! 00:29, 10 August 2006 (BST)
What? No, CDF was invited via our talk page by a user named Gage on 29 July. --Shadowstar 03:01, 10 August 2006 (BST)
Oh... well then, nevermind. I didn't know that. Carry on. --Darth Sensitive Talk W! 03:03, 10 August 2006 (BST)
There never was an intention to invite members. Gage took it upon himself, and I really preferred if he had not. –Xoid STFU! 19:34, 10 August 2006 (BST)
Due to various non-invested-parties (i.e. fuckwits) butting in, (who've really managed to do a bang up job, by the way) proceedings have been bogged down to an almost glacial state (funny that the flamewar raged so intensely then, 'eh?). See Section 13. From that heading onwards, no interruptions from non-DEM-diplomats or non-CFT representatives will be tolerated. I'd like to get this over and done with ASAP. –Xoid STFU! 19:34, 10 August 2006 (BST)

Section 13

Unless my memory is wildly off, there is not going to be much, if anything substantial to add by providing technical details. If you think that will help your case, go ahead. –Xoid STFU! 18:54, 10 August 2006 (BST)

To summarize our position, the DEM does not believe that the DEMON tool is unfair in any way. The DEM strongly advocates fair tactics, and would not employ any tool that we felt violated any ethical boundries. After reading the postings on this page, and the postings on our own group forums, we don't see any reason to discontinue the use of DEMON.
The DEM does agree with and is addressing the concern about non DEM alt's feeding intel into the DEMON - this will become automatic (non DEM UID's will not be allowed to submit data) on the next update.
However, the other claims made by this body don't seem to have significant defensibility. Objections to this tool have ranged over a wide spectrum, from "It's too easy", to "We don't have it", to "It isn't realistic", to "It reports too much" (pardon the oversimplifications). Accepting any of these arguments would have severe reprecussions throughout the game through precedent. If easy is a mark of an unfair tactic, then easy things are unfair; the wiki has made great strides to do this very thing and facilitate the Urban Dead experience. The information provided in the wiki is easy to reference. If access determines the fairness of a tactic, then any private forum must be banned by extension. If realism is at issue, then zombies must speak (and post in their wiki) in zombish. And if completelness is an issue one can only imagine what that would mean for the wiki.
In short, the DEM maintains that while this conversation has illuminated a valid concern that we are working to rectify to comply with our own moral judgment, it has provided little else in the way of legitimate argument. We will continue to monitor the proceedings, and would happily engage cohesive arguments one at a time.--Kiki Lottaboobs 05:47, 11 August 2006 (BST)
Bob Hammero was right to say that bantering with the DEM was pointless. While most, if not all, of the CFT view DEMON/IMP/whatever as abhorrent; nothing that can be said or done will change your minds. That however, is irrelevant now. As I said earlier, even if we could convince you to be rid of it, it's too late to supress something like this.
Addressing the UID concern is about the only thing that I believe we can get you to agree on. I would however like to suggest one other thing: I can't remember if there was a feature that allowed the tracking of profiles; but something such as that is just… it's just wrong. I won't bother going into specifics, as we both know that will only make this discussion degenerate into another flamewar. I will ask the other representatives if they're willing to "sign off" on this agreement: UID checker, and that request. To clarify: the request would not be a binding part of the agreement. –Xoid STFU! 12:52, 11 August 2006 (BST)

I've been to busy to participate much in the proceedings, so I have a couple of questions. The first is thus: What exactly are the people "In favor" of Section 13 declaring by signing as such? --SirensT RR 19:19, 14 August 2006 (BST)

That we are in favor of an agreement where the DEM agrees to improve their tool so only UIDs belonging to DEM members can update the DEMON database and eliminate (if it exists) any feature that permit the track of profiles with DEMON. --Matthew Fahrenheit YRC | T | W! 20:50, 14 August 2006 (BST)
but if they do that, I won't be able to sabotage it. Oops...said to much. --SirensT RR 01:06, 15 August 2006 (BST)
You know, I thought the same th-- nevermind. --Shadowstar 05:40, 15 August 2006 (BST)

All Assembly Representatives

I don't think it's productive to continue bantering with the DEM at this point in time. I would prefer it if we could please discuss this among ourselves at the Coalition for Fair Tactics/Assembly/DEM page, and after we have formulated a plan that we can all agree on, discuss it with the DEM. –Bob Hammero ModB'cratTA 02:05, 3 August 2006 (BST)

Then, discussion here is closed for the time being? That wuold be... much more organized. --Matthew Fahrenheit YRC | T | W! 02:42, 3 August 2006 (BST)

A Conclusion

Bob Hammero is an asshole. Code your own DEMON, bitch, and stop crying. --Raja Ram 04:33, 7 July 2007 (BST)

Here's a real conclusion for you Raja Ram, the DEM representatives missed the point entirely and made excuses for an automated spy bot that only they have access to. Instead of addressing any of the issues anyone brought up they made excuses having nothing to do with those issues and got defensive thinking the purpose was to insult their group. Kirsty of the Dead even remarked at one point that Xoid's argument was the first rational thing posted when the exact same arguments had been posted multiple times before that one and ignored or insulted by other DEM members, including Kirsty herself. The rational conclusion would be what people have a problem with is it's automated invasiveness, it's ability to provide the DEM with a level of information more than 80% of the game could never hope to have or have access too, and it's extremely high susceptibility to abuse thanks too the other two problems. I have no clue what changes have occurred with DEMON since this discussion as I don't, and never want too, have access to DEMON, but I do know a few things, such as it still tracks specific players for the purpose of making it easier for players who have done things the DEM disagrees with to be tracked down and killed, that the DEM has a group dedicated just to doing that in it's membership/employ, and that even if you have been resolved of the need to be killed it still tracks and updates information on said third party player/s whenever it is available. DEMON is a big brother tool and functions to give the DEM an advantage on information over other groups and that fact that the user who is providing the information doesn't have to know it is relevant for it to be put to use or doesn't have to submit it on the belief that it may be relevant is a huge difference between DEMON and user submitted reports. Now, this is kinda a dead issue which you decided to bring up because, it seems, you don't like Bob Hammero, so with this note I suggest you let it lie in it's restful grave and discuss the issue on the actual page about the IWitness tool which Swiers plans on developing, there is a lot of discussion and consideration that was involved or ignored in this that could and should be applied to there. And unlike Kiki Lottaboobs, Swiers isn't going to say "If you don't like it code your own" because his is public and he actually knows how to take people advice, criticism, and opinions into consideration instead of ignoring them in a way that will start an epically long argument.--Karekmaps?! 11:58, 3 August 2007 (BST)
well Karek it seems you're wrong even on the wiki. DEMON tracks pkers from the RG and noone else. And in response to your lame attempt to use my words without me being here I'll tell ya I was responding to 1 count em 1 realistic complaint these guys had re: DEMON. Everything else was just crying...oh and I'll thank ya to go back to the threat reports and leave me out of this.--Kristi of the Dead 06:00, 4 August 2007 (BST)
It seems he spelled your name wrong too. Kirsty? :).-- dǝǝɥs ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 06:14, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Well he can't be bothered with spelling my name right after all he has to expend alot of energy insulting my group and that would be a little too much effort.--Kristi of the Dead 06:21, 4 August 2007 (BST)
You're powers of ignorance never cease to amaze me. Not everything anyone says is antiDEM Kirsti, not everyone hates the DEM, and if you took time to think about what you read before responding to it with bitchiness you would realise I never said anything about it tracking everyone, pking would be a thing that the DEM disagrees with and although I didn't say pking that was my point(I don't know if it tracks anything else and couldn't have until you came here to bitch). I'm not insulting your group and if you could see past the fact that you don't like me that would be obvious. So I'll kindly thank ya too fuck off until you can grow up, and trust me it takes a very special person to get me to say that.--Karekmaps?! 10:54, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Listen man I don't dislike you I don't even know you what I do know is that you said "things the DEM doesn't like" it was vague and used in an obvious way. In this case "things the DEM doesn't like" actually means "things nearly every survivor group in the game doesn't like" or "PKers". I mean we're not even in control over who is considered a pker to begin with so it's a bit of a stretch and overly dramatic for you to put it that way. And it's not everything anyone says, it's what you say or said in any event. I don't have this problem with everyone, just you. Also I notice that it doesn't take ya long to delve down to the personal attacks either...never did I call ya a name. Yet here ya call ingnorant and bitchy and top it off with telling me to fuck off, real classy, sounds like the dislike is really coming from you pal o mine.--Kristi of the Dead 12:59, 4 August 2007 (BST)
Can't we all just get along? :). Sorry for intruding again, I'm just kind of bored.-- dǝǝɥs ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 13:04, 4 August 2007 (BST)
It has been one year since somebody has beat this dead horse. Such a period is unacceptable.--Labine50 MEMS | MHG 23:38, 4 August 2008 (BST)
Don't worry, PKers are now forming a facade "manifesto" to justify killing DEM members, and their core complaint is "OMGLOLWTF DEMON iz teh haxcz!" or some nonsense. Honestly, if anybody that complained about DEMON used it, they'd readily realize that most of the information is outdated and useless because the game changes faster than the tool is updated. See:Malton_Uprising-- GeraldThompson 15:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
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