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Earlier Barricade Plan Discussion

This historic talk information was archived on 15:03, 15 October 2006 (BST). --Kal

After recent events with Ire-Awry, and particularly given the impending arrival of the Bash, it seems to me like the barricade plan for Shearbank could do with a revisit. I have re-edited the plan so it's basically back to how it was before Ire-Awry's involvement - i.e. it is identical to the way Aaron Gosling left things on his edit of 11th Sept.

I don't know who the DEM's representative for this is likely to be as Vikermac is no longer operating in Shearbank, however I do know he has been following the discussion about Ire-Awry's changes and was concerned about the situation, so he might well still want to run with this. Regardless I think this is as good a place as any to get the ball rolling!

The plan as it was left by Aaron looks mostly ok to me, but there are just a couple of areas that still look "off".

  • Do we really need all 4 NT buildings VSB? The UBP guidline is for only one NT building in a suburb to be VSB, but it's always possible that tactically, Shearbank could benefit from there being more. I certainly think that at least the Turner Building should be classified EHB as it has a VSB entry point (St Josapahat's Hospital) immediately next door and a second NT building only 1N3E away. Gabe clearly needs to stay VS as it's the entry point for it's block.
  • Similarly, what about the churches? I know the UBP guideline is for them to be EHB; St Herman's evidently needs to be VSB as it's the logical entry point for the block it is on. St Athanasius' looks like it should be EHB however, certainly if the Nisbet building next door is going to remain a VSB NT building. Likewise, St Christopher's should probably be EHB if the Whippey building next door is going to be a VSB NT building.
  • Of course if those NT buildings were reclassified EHB then having the churches as VS entry points for those blocks makes much more sense! Personally, I think Churches make better entry points because they are more visible than NT buildings to survivors in need, but if we reclassified both Whippey and Nisbet (and Turner) as EHB that would leave Gabe as the only VSB NT building in the suburb, and it's pretty out-of-the-way. I don't know how much of a problem this would really be - there can't be many survivors without Free Running who actually need access to an NT building, after all. At the moment the situation is that both the NT buildings and the Churches are marked VSB, even when they are next door to each other and with plenty of other nearby VSB buildings. That just doesn't seem sensible to me.
  • We still seem to have two RP's marked next to each other - St Christopher's and Allder Row. Allder Row is afaik the DEM's preferred RP as we prefer to use street locations so there is no confusion about whether the buildings are under attack. I know other groups use St Christopher's, but there seems to be confusion about whether the RP is supposed to be inside or outside - the Freerunners mention on their page that the RP is outside and zombies found inside the church will be considered invaders, but the tagging for the location often indicates the RP is in fact inside the building. My purely personal preference would be to do away with the St Christopher's RP altogether and just use Allder Row (and, obviously Male Way) as the official RP's - this would eliminate any confusion. Churches and Cemetaries should still be considered "unofficial" RP's under the SGP, but don't necessarily need to be marked as such on the UBP.
I also have had and seen some confusion with the St. Chris and Allder RPs. The church particularly has unclear guidelines as to whether it's interior or exterior is the actual RP. I believe the wiki currently says the interior is the RP where as I've seen tags claiming the exterior is the RP and the interior is a nogo zone for Zs. I'd move for making Allder official, and letting revivors operating out of St. Chris move one square NW.
That said, should we designate a new 3rd rally point? Something to the SW of the mall, since it looks like the Bash is coming from the NE?--The Envoy 15:19, 6 October 2006 (BST)

I apologise in advance for if I've made any massive faux pas in outlining the situation here - I am still relatively new and I certainly haven't been involved in any of the historical discussions for the area; I'm just trying to get things all fixed up so we're all on the same page and ready for the bash to hit us (if indeed it does.) --Kal 00:06, 6 October 2006 (BST)

This is the UBP that I had set up after talking with the ACC, Freerunners, Shearbank Resistence, and FVZA. I'm almost positive this is how it worked before somebody *cough* started making changes to it. It is fairly easy to update the UBP to look like this map. If anyone is curious just why the buildings are designated the way they are, ask on here or on my user page, and I can fill you in.

Shearbank Original UBP.jpg

Thanks, Vikermac 16:02, 6 October 2006 (BST)

Tks, Viker. As you may have read, Kal and I are wondering why Allder and St. Chris are both RPs. I just seems to split the resources and effectiveness of a community revivication policy. I mean, if you have two groups operating right next to each other, wouldn't having both of their resources pooled in one area be more effective in the long run?--The Envoy 16:12, 6 October 2006 (BST)
To be completely honest, I had thought this had been solved a couple of months back, and the agreement was that we would use Allder Row & Male Way as the official RP's. The freerunners were going to continue using St Christopher's themselves but weren't going to be publicising it. I don't know what's happened since then to change things? --Kal 17:41, 6 October 2006 (BST)
Allder and Male were suppose to be the official RP's. I didn't tell anyone that the Freerunners were going to continue using St. Chris themselves, but apparently that is public knowledge now, which is the reason we left it labeled on the map. As far as the DEM is concerned, the only two RP's we are using are Allder and Male. I'll ask the Freerunners if they want it publicized or not, since I'm still a member on thier forum. --Vikermac 18:27, 6 October 2006 (BST)

Ok I have now reverted the barricade plan to the agreed upon levels from Vikermac's plan. As this setup was agreed upon by 5 large groups operating in the area, I think it's best we should go back to this point and then discuss/make changes from there. --Kal 17:58, 6 October 2006 (BST)

Vikermac's plan was made by Vikermac. He did consult with us (the Shearbank Resistance) and others, but there was no opportuinty for the different groups to discuss issues amongst themselfs before the original (NONeditable) map was posted. Furthermore, the FVZA no longer opperates in Shearbank. They announced their departure in early september. So this map is definitely a work in progress.

Just another note, TheBerts, whoever you are, it is absolutely not acceptable for anyone to be making edits to the UBP for Shearbank without bothering with discussion with the other local groups first. Whether this plan is optimal or not, it is the current plan and changes to it ought to be discussed before they are made. I am relisting Allder Row as an RP on the main page and reverting your edits to it on the UBP plan. --Kal 00:29, 9 October 2006 (BST)

I am a rep from the Shearbank Resistance, I guess I did not make that clear enough. Apparently there is more interest in the Shearbank page than usual. In the past there hase been essentially noone to discuss with execpt Aaron Gosling, which I have done via email, so I have gotten in the habit of posting here and making changes simultaneously. I will stop doing this. How long a waiting period do you consider adequate before making suggested changes which have no response? 1 day, 1 week. Personally I would suggest no more than 2 days max.--TheBerts 00:17, 9 October 2006 (BST)
Sorry, you caught me in mid-edit there, I was about to post roughly the same thing! I think that 24hrs is not unreasonable - certainly I know that I check this page at least once a day, usually more often. I would tend to suggest that any groups active enough that they would like to have a say in the planning for the suburb will (or at least should!) be monitoring this page at least that often. I was going to suggest relocating this discussion to one of our forums as it trying to thrash this out on a wiki talk page is hardly optimal, but at the same time, at least it keeps the discussion entirely public and any members of other groups who are interested have the opportunity to chime in. Perhaps we should make a note here that discussions are taking place elsewhere and invite interested parties to join in there? The DEM maintain public forums which I'm sure would be fine, but if you're already having a discussion elsewhere perhaps that would be the best place?
Apologies if I came off a little harshly to start with, I've been trying to get this plan sorted out for some time and it's an endlessly frustrating task - as I'm sure you know! It will be very nice indeed if we can finally get this plan settled down - particularly in view of the possible imminent arrival of the bash.
--Kal 00:29, 9 October 2006 (BST)

Ire-Awry S.T.F Zerging Theory

This historic talk information was archived on 15:03, 15 October 2006 (BST). --Kal

Check out the wikipage of this "group" newly arrived in Shearbank apparently. They're leader Vincet has a AIM, presumably AIM screenname, listed as Arpeggio, which happens to be the name of his org's number 2 man. Clone invaders are worse than zombies in my book.--The Envoy 01:03, 2 October 2006 (BST)

I should also note that they (Vicent/Arpeggio) have unilaterally updated the UBP plan for Shearbank, modifying all Churches and St Luke's Cathedral and the Thorne Arms pub - which they have declared as their HQ - to VS (previously EHB), and marking St Christopher's Church as an RP. All this was done without, as far as I can tell, any discussion with other groups operating in the area.
I discovered this when I was patrolling a few nights ago, and found the Thorne Arms 'caded and tagged as VS+2. When I mentioned the UBP on the wiki, Vicent thanked me for letting him know, stated that the Wiki was wrong, and said he had therefore updated it - and you can see edits on the page by user account Arp3ggio.
I've been trying to get some out-of-game contact details for him so I can pass it on to someone from the DEM, but not had any success so far, I'll pass that AIM address on now. --Kal 13:30, 2 October 2006 (BST)

As parts of Shearbank, particularly Edmund General Hospital, begin to feel the escalation of this fall's seige, ugly rumors begin to circulate among the survivor community. Ire-Awry S.T.F. has begun establishing a presence with lip service to helping the greater Shearbank effort. However, their actions so far has sowed confusion among the defense effort either through arrogant presumptuousness or outright sabotage of Shearbank UBP. Some government opperative from outside Malton recently arrived in city hypothesize that the Ire-Awry S.T.F. may well be members of the Zerg Clone menace that's been operating in this city while using the zombie outbreak as cover. --The Envoy 16:40, 2 October 2006 (BST)

That little article looks worthy of being on the front-page, instead of just on the talk page, what do you think? --Kal 21:02, 2 October 2006 (BST)
You mean the paragraph over you? I don't know, I'm pretty confidant about my instincts regarding Ire-Awry, but I'm a relatively new Urbandeadhead, and I know making accusations that haven't been fully vetted as facts have been frowned on before. I put a non accusatory article about the heroics at the hospital on front.--The Envoy 21:14, 2 October 2006 (BST)
You are probably right. I'm watching this space to see what the facts turn out to be.... --Kal 23:16, 2 October 2006 (BST)

Looks like Ire-Awry_S.T.F have dissapeared - Arp3ggio has undone most of his edits, removed the announcement of Ire-Awry's arrival from Shearbanks main page, and the Ire-Awry page itself has been deleted. Looks like the barricade plan might still need a few fixes, I will check and repair if need be. --Kal 21:12, 5 October 2006 (BST)

Well i see help isnt appreciated around here. I'll just take my two cents with me. And calling us egotistical, come on. If no one knows who we are, acusations and quick falsitys like the ones The Envoy so gorgeously stated will just make this game how you've made it for me, for others. I'll do you all a favor and just pull everything off the table, Ire-Awry S.T.F doesnt feel the need to help shearbank anylonger. And as of now will not. I apalogize for changing UBP but i didnt actually change anything except for the view, the entire time 2 months i've been at Thorn arms it has been VSB. And tho we have not helped the greater cause of shearbank is b/c 1. we were not here to help all of shearbank, for we couldnt of at our current status. 2. we were a small group consisting of 3 people, not exactly Shearbanks best resistance and 3.Arpeggio and Perciful are away training. So myself alone cannot leave a mark on such a rediculous town in a week or so. You may have your opinions i fail to care anylonger now. Have fun shunning assistance.

--Arp3ggio 16:13, 5 October 2006 (BST)

I don't think anyone called you egotistical, Arp3ggio. You were called presumptuous and arrogant - which, by unilaterally modifying the UBP without discussing it with any of the extant survivor groups you clearly were.
The Thorne Arms has been marked as EHB on the UBP page since at least august and this can be clearly seen in the page's history; if you found it VSB in game this was an error. Certainly I know I've been fixing the 'cades up to EHB whenever I found them below that level, and I've been patrolling Shearbank for the MFD since late August.
As Vikermac and I made clear on the discussion page for talk:Ire-Awry_S.T.F, we'd be delighted to welcome you to Shearbank and every last bit of assistance against the zombie hordes expected to arrive soon from the Big Bash will be enormously appreciated - but if we're going to have an overall plan to organise the suburb, then changes need to be discussed before they are made. I've tried hard to contact you for the last four days and this has been your only response, and I know you've been active on the wiki during that time. I don't really know what else we could have done!
I'm sorry you feel you have to leave, but I do wish you well in whatever suburb you head to next. --Kal 22:05, 5 October 2006 (BST)
Oh come on, Arp3ggio, that ain't winning my sympathy or apology. First off, as Kal has politely explained, your small group's activities, and your wiki activities, were messing with the game plan of the broader suburb. This is a game with a lot of players, you can't do that without expecting a reaction, either "meta" in the wiki or role played out in game. Besides that, you never stood up to your other charge: that Arpeggio and Vincet are played by the same player. Having multiple characters in the game is fine, but a lot of players have a problem with a player using multiple characters in the same neighborhood, let alone in concert by participating in the same group. There are whole posses out there existing to out and out kill such zergers. Now, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and, instead of reporting you to those anti-zerge groups, brought it up here to give you a chance to defend or explain yourself. Cutting and running didn't really make a good case. So, while hopefully you'll find a suburb somewhere in Malton where you can play the way you want to play, if we come across each other again, you're still in The Envoy's investigative files as a member of the possible clone shadow conspiracy (how I roleplay my antipathy toward zergers). Regards, --The Envoy 23:01, 5 October 2006 (BST)
What about the most NW suburb in Malton. I'm pretty sure it is still listed as a ghost town, with little involvement from anyone, survivor or zombie. I'm sure no one would mind you going up there and setting up a small group and you can change the UBP in part of the suburb all you'd like! --Vikermac 18:31, 6 October 2006 (BST)


This historic talk information was archived on 03:37, 11 October 2006 (BST) --Kal

I feel like this should really have another entire below the rest "Present: DARIS seem to have vanished and nobody particularly cares either way about Shearbank anymore":-P Elliothatman 15:25, 24 Nov 2005 (GMT)

The Lack of DARIS Control

I tried to be as neutral and up to date as possible in my edits because this section seemed to be in need of an update. When I was in Shearbank last, no one seemed to have much of a presence in Shearbank outside of the zombies. The SLA is trying to kick all of them out, I understand, and if they already have, correct my edits on that issue, or any other facts no longer considered true. However, the article definitely doesn't need to refer to weeks old events in the present tense and I think I did a good job with the other minor edits to the important events. If not, again, someone fix it. Shearbank may not be the hotspot on the map any more, but it still deserves a decent article. Insomniac By Choice 09:33, 8 Oct 2005 (BST)

Your edit is good. I've been meaning to update both this page, and the DARIS page, for awhile now. I'm just lazy. --ShaqFu 18:39, 8 Oct 2005 (BST)
Agreed, DARIS has basically dissolved and their main supporters (Katthew, for one) have mysteriously disappeared from the wiki. I doubt anyone will really care about this. --LibrarianBrent 22:45, 8 Oct 2005 (BST)

Katthew was removed from power a while back. Anyone think we should remove DARIS from the list of groups in Shearbank? Darrik 01:26, 24 Oct 2005 (BST) SLA claims DARIS has returned or something. So for now... I guess we have to leave the possiblity that DARIS is still active.--Axe-man 05:21, 1 Nov 2005 (GMT)


Should we stick with no flag, or keep the flag? Darrik 22:11, 20 Sep 2005 (BST) 5:10 pm est 20 Sept 2005

I think the flag ought to stay. It looks more unique that way, and other suburbs have flags. - TSP 22:13, 20 Sep 2005 (BST)
How about a miniature flag next to DARIS's name in the know groups part? --Raelin 22:19, 20 Sep 2005 (BST)

DARIS Control

I'm a little confused- the Wiki for Urbandead is saying that DARIS "controls" Shearbank???

I have a character who passes through Shearbank all the time, staying the night regularly, and I really have to disagree with this. DARIS has had no impact on my play in Shearbank, though I heard they PK a lot and I have seen their graffiti occasionally. If they control the suburb and claim to kill nonmembers, why can I roam about with impunity?

If all someone has to do to "control" part of Malton is say so on the internet, than I claim the whole city. C'mon, guys.

I would say that there are quite a few residents of Shearbank that would object to this article.

Would you guys please sign your entries? Anyhow, since it appears that the CoL has declared war on DARIS, the Suburb isn't safe for anybody. Any SLA members residing within the suburb's borders are as likely to be killed by the CoL as by DARIS.--Milo 01:57, 13 Sep 2005 (BST)

High-level characters don't need to be warned. The "unsafe for low-level characters" is really just a warning for those newbies who are smart enough to read the wiki before they jump in. -- Stankow 03:38, 13 Sep 2005 (BST)

Font Size

How come the font size on the menu is smaller on this page? looking at the code I can't figure out why that would be happening on just this page. -- GIR 01:51, 20 Sep 2005 (BST)

For some reason the unclosed center tag in the map box was goofing things up. No idea why. Should be fine now. --Raelin 02:43, 20 Sep 2005 (BST)
Raelin, I just wanted to say that I like your miniature flag idea. We should do this for all the suburb pages. --ShaqFu 00:21, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)

DARIS Claims

I strongly disagree with the reverts done over the last day. The Shearbank page is not the private property of DARIS. If they disagree with information posted, they should point out that it's a claim rather than simply getting rid of it entirely. --Stankow 23:41, 20 Sep 2005 (BST)

Yes, we should leave false claims on the page. I can take screenshots of the mall and show you that they're false, but that wouldn't matter. I'm in DARIS, so there's no way I could ever make an objective decision, right? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. --ShaqFu 00:21, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
If you're going to have the entire conversation with yourself, I'll just stand over here by the bar until you're done.
Done now? Good. You've been refreshing your screenshot of the mall for the last 26 hours? What about the claims of other safehouses falling? Has there been no activity throughout the entire suburb all day? Is it even remotely possible that any of it might be related? Deleting the entire paragraph makes you look like you're trying to hide something. If you'd said, "Members of DARIS deny the following points," or even "The official DARIS spokesman denies the truth of this report in its entirety," then you're addressing the allegations instead of just deciding that wiki users shouldn't have access to them at all. --Stankow 00:59, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
Stankow, I could put that there are millions of tiny goblins in Shearbank and even though nobody would be able to definitively prove otherwise, it'd still be a complete and utter lie. My character is in Shearbank, so I went to take a look before I made my first edit. Things are fine, there is no zombie horde that I could see. So I deleted the claims as the stupid vandalism they so rightly were. --Katthew 04:49, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
Katthew, you are flat-out, 100 percent, stone-cold lying. The SA forums have been peppered with calls for revives in Shearbank for the last 36 hours. Stickling Mall might not have been breached, but DARIS safehouses have had to be relocated several times due to human PKers and small groups of 5-20 zombies. Your "fine" suburb with "no zombie horde" is full of rather more than "stupid vandalism" as of midnight EDT. You and ShaqFu have graduated from petty sniping, personal attacks and unsubtle POVing to outright falsehood. Congratulations. You've been reduced to lying about electrons flowing through wires. --Stankow 05:17, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
That's rather uncharitable, Stankow. He might have just not noticed those 60 zombies when he verified the contents of the edit. I think he should be given time to put the original content back up before anyone claims he's being intentionally deceptive.--Jeff 05:25, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
I noticed them, yeah, but it's hardly a "confirmed hundred". Hell, most of those zombies will probably be dead in the next hour. It's a cycle: DARIS kills them, the next day they stand up.
Stankow, you're lucky I don't ban for mod sass. So there's a few zombies there, big deal. One of those buildings (shan't say which) is a revive point, so that's even less than you think. As for the forums being "peppered" with calls for revives, you must be reading the wrong thread. Sure, people ask, but they also repeatedly ask. Even if it were true that we have a hundred confirmed zombies in Shearbank, such claims as "Many safehouses have fallen" are still outright lies. The whole thing is worded purely as a dig at DARIS and not factual information.
Actually, what the heck, I'll ban for mod sass this once. Forty-eight hours, go chillax and learn to stop being such a terrible contributer. Because you do nothing but complain, constantly, about other people's edits and yet hardly make any edits of your own. Not to mention the constant attacks against other users and the way I moderate this wiki. --Katthew 05:30, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
Wow. That seems pretty harsh. I mean, if we're going to consider Zombie groups that get killed, stand up, and get killed again to be nothing worth mentioning, The Many has ceased to be anything worth mentioning in the game. Isn't his original point still valid? There were a lot of zombies, just in the nine squares shown in that shot. If you took a cruise through the suburb to verify the information before deleting it, that's admirable, but it seems that a clarification rather than a deletion would've been in order.--Jeff 05:35, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
Maybe you missed the HUGE argument where he kept harrassing me on the subject of "zombie mutations" despite the fact the decision to remove them had already been made? Even when I told him the discussion was over, he wouldn't let it drop. I am an admin here, it is my job to make sure this wiki is pleasant to read and pleasant to edit. What I do is keep order, something that's very difficult when someone keeps saying your every decision is wrong. If a mod tells me "thanks for this suggestion, but everyone else doesn't like it" I don't throw a Goddamn tantrum and whine for several days about how much I want this suggestion to stay in.
It's only two days, anyway. Hopefully the time away will help Stankow to relax and learn that insulting admins can have consequences. --Katthew 05:43, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
Well... yeah, I mean, I did notice that argument. He had a pretty reasonable point -- it was a skill suggestion, you deleted it because you thought it was stupid, and insulted people who didn't feel that way. He didn't harass you so much as keep asking "why?" while you called him an idiot. He might have stuck to the point longer than I would've bothered, but that's about tenacity, not harassment. I was the guy who asked you why discussions couldn't just take place here to determine the 'popularity' of an idea, and you said "trust me." I'm not trying to be an ass, just a little puzzled by the hostility to simply letting an entry be discussed.--Jeff 05:53, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
Apologies if I listen to the majority instead of the minority. People wanted me to delete those skills, they got deleted. Stankow is not multiple people, so unfortunately he didn't really have much say in the matter. Also, "tenacity" is a good quality. "Harrassment" is repeatedly ignoring an admin saying a decision is final. I know that there are many people on this wiki who don't like me, but I am an admin and as such I have a duty to this wiki. I will not be forced to have to endlessly debate the same point over and over again.
Nor, for that matter, will I be insulted in public for making an editorial decision. Especially not if it's a correct one. I would not let ANYONE make ANY uncomfirmed and basely untrue edit to ANYONE'S page. I don't care who they are, what the page is or what they're saying. If it is untrue and claims to be fact, it is gone. I would instantly ban any member of DARIS if they did the same thing to anyone else's page.
If, in two days, this guy can prove to me that there are hundreds of zombies in Shearbank, then I will edit in the information myself. Until then, I shall trust my own eyes. --Katthew 06:07, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
The original post said, 'hundreds, 100 confirmed.' If you're that concerned with accuracy of information, why not just edit it to '70 confirmed' instead of '100 confirmed?' You said there were none, he posted an actual screenshot with 70 in just nine squares. Now you're demanding he find 'hundreds' of them.
Regarding the whole 'listening to the majority' thing, well, as you said, I just have to trust you. You deleted content here because you said it was stupid, then claimed to have the support of an invisible majority. I've been an admin on quite a few sites, I can understand the frustration of having one's actions second-guessed. It's no fun, especially when you're putting work into a resource for the public. But this kind of stuff just makes it look like you're on a crusade to smack down anyone who disagrees with your on-a-whim decisions.--Jeff 06:22, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
Incorrect, I deleted content because it was stupid. Unless rocket launchers that kill everyone in a block and skills that enable you to gain AP by punching people are good ideas. The suggestions page was a quagmire of horrible ideas until I purged it, and it's rapidly becoming as it once was. The only edits of mine that are anywhere near approaching draconian are for the Suggestions page, because it needs it. Just look at the previous incarnation of the page if you don't believe me. Yes, even the horrible ideas are suggestions, but I don't want it to be a page full of everyone's crappest ideas. I want it to be a page that, if Kevan ever needs an idea, he can look at and not get through half a page of crap before getting to anything good. I also defy you to prove to me that any of the ideas I've deleted have had any kind of "work" or "thought" put into them.
However, it is not on-a-whim at all. There are plenty of ideas (cars, dogs, ghastly grapple) which I feel are crap but have not had a definite opinion voiced about them either way. So they stay in. With all due respect, you're only seeing the stuff I delete and not the stuff I leave in. Harder to discern, true enough, but it's there.
And I know, unfortunately, that the majority is currently invisible. I keep asking them to get accounts, so hopefully they will and more discussion can take place on the wiki. --Katthew 07:00, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
In all seriousness... wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that if the silent majority doesn't care enough to get wiki accounts, they aren't actually the majority? Is there anywhere I can go to ask them things? --Jeff 07:13, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
I just looked around at other pages Stankow created. I noticed you asked for peoples' opinions on whether his Pretorian pages should be deleted -- the votes were Keep, Keep, Keep, Keep, Condense, Merge, Don't Merge, Keep. After getting into this spat with him and saying he didn't contribute much, you went back and merged them. I can trust you that the silent majority spoke, but it does appear to the casual observer that you just got mad at Stankow and tossed his pages.--Jeff 06:47, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
There was some confusion on that issue on whether or not the pages would remain. Some people seemed to think I wanted to delete them. Also, that page only documents those people who chose to talk about the issue there. I got plenty of feedback from other people who thought the pages should be merged. Not to mention that every time the Pretorians add a new "operation" to the wiki, it's so POV it's not even funny. --Katthew 07:00, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
Thanks for clarifying. I got the impression that you wanted the pages deleted from the fact that you suggested they be deleted, then replied to the 'keep it' posts saying you thought the pages should be deleted. Then deleted them. :) I guess that qualifies as some confusion. I'm glad the silent majority is keeping track of stuff that the speaking minority is wrong about.
Now that the operations are merged onto the group page, though, why are you still removing the edits for POV? The DARIS pages and other assorted groups not posted by Stankow seem to have acceptable POV material as long as it's restricted to the group page. This discussion got me interested, and now it's fascinating to watch your edit history.--Jeff 07:09, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
I guess I'm part of the silent majority who has been reading the wiki since inception but has never bothered to actually post or contribute. I agree with Jeff that the way the edits to the Pretorians were carried out smells a bit, well, fishy. However, the end result looks much cleaner and more concise. The Pretorians launch a new operation every other day it seems, and creating a new page for each one was creating clutter. The merge presents the information better. On the subject of PoV though, it seems like the Pretorian page as it stands right now has a bit of a negative tilt to it. I dunno, maybe thats just me. As for the whole DARIS/Shearbank thing, Katthew has an obligation to not let the Shearbank page degenerate into propaganda (Shearbank overrun by hundreds! Safe houses falling! DARIS in ruins!) but at the same time if someone has a legitimate (screen shotted, for instance) report of dozens of zombies in a suburb, it deserves to be reported. Neutral PoV of course. And if Katthew took a look around and didnt see a threat, then he could add that in response. Although perhaps Katthew might want to recuse himself on that page and let another moderator look it over. Its well known he has ties to DARIS and of *course* people are going to be suspicious about anything he edits in conjunction.--Amazing Rando 07:57, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)
I am related to DARIS, yes, but that does not affect the way I moderate. I would revert vandalism done to any other page as quickly as I did with the DARIS/Shearbank pages. The point was not that there are zombies in Shearbank. There are some, yeah, I'll concede with that. However, the whole tone of the edit and the sheer propaganda of it (as you said, "DARIS in ruins!") made it unsuitable. He had two more chances to make a better edit and he failed, instead trying to re-add what had already been removed. That is the actions of a vandal, not a good editor. When he comes back (and it's only two days, people, hardly a permaban) he can try and edit a little better. --Katthew 08:00, 21 Sep 2005 (BST)

Katthew, I'm not going to descend to a revert war with you, so I'll air this on the Talk page, where it belongs. First, I didn't "write" anything -- as it clearly says in my note, I moved the claims from the DARIS page to preclude a further revert war. If you take a look at what was there and what I put in, you'll see that I NPOVified the hell out of it. And if "isn't even approaching accurate," then why did you make no substantive changes to the text? --Stankow 14:38, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)

You said, and I quote, "Moved disputed events of the last couple of days from DARIS page, NPOVified." However, you didn't NPOV anything at all. I suggest that in order to find out what a "neutral point of view" is you either take a journalism course and learn it that way, along with such skills you really need as "how to write well", or failing that, get a dictionary and read it.
More than that, you moved the claims because you thought that the people intent on stopping this unending stream of lies wouldn't notice them if they were on this page. Everything you do on this wiki is for your own selfish purposes and never for any common good, no matter what you claim. And if you can't tell what changes I made to the text, then you're as ignorant as you are worthless. --Katthew 14:48, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)
It's good to know that you got another job after your last one ended so abruptly. --Stankow 14:59, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)

Shame, Really

It appears there's literally no such thing as a Neutral Point of View here. Not even an Impartial Observer. Maybe we should just nuke the page, and start over. It has to be easier than the constant warfare from both side, of whom neither can apparently trusted to write unbiased material. -- Odd Starter 14:42, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)

No, there's a little NPOV here. For instance, what I put. I may be associated with DARIS but I don't treat this wiki as my own personal playground like some people. The easiest solution would be to ban the people who insist upon adding lies and nonexistent "rumours" to the page, but apparently doing that isn't what moderators should do. --Katthew 14:48, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)
Katthew, on this page your edits have consistently been ever so slightly favourable to DARIS. On at least two occasions you have removed factually correct information that I have been able to verify with my own character in Shearbank, claiming it to be "exaggeration". Everybody needs to be careful about POV on this page. (And no, moderators shouldn't ban people who are adding material in good faith, even if they're doing a bad job. Banning is for pure spammers and people who violate established community standards, not that we have many of those yet.) --Morlock 14:59, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)
They've been slightly more favourable to DARIS, than, say, the outright lies that people keep trying to add on this page. I also have a character in Shearbank, so God knows what the fuck you're looking at. I also note that, despite gatehred evidence to the contrary, you've changed the talk about zerging to "rumours". Tell me, what kind of legitimate players decide to name their zombies "zd17" and "zd27"? There are zergers in Shearbank, and considering we've found a "zd84" wandering around, you have to really wonder how much of this "horde" is one person.
And these people are adding material in bad faith, or haven't you noticed that it's the same people adding these "rumours" every single time? I doubt it, since that'd be too much to expect. --Katthew 15:37, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)
If there is evidence of zerging, give us some links, either in the article itself where you make the allegations, or here on the Talk Page. Until then "rumours" it is. I'm fairly sure there are zergers in Shearbank (indeed I deliberately kept my zombie there out of the large hordes once the allegations surfaced) but I haven't seen any direct evidence for it. (And I should point out that you've been very quick to deny screenshots as proof when they prove things that you don't like since they can be doctored.)
But I could see hordes of well over 30 zombies when you made an edit that claimed that 30 was the most in any one group, so I know very well what I was looking at thanks. Believe me, I am keeping very careful track of who is adding what information to this page. --Morlock 15:50, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)
Zerging is bad. On the UD boards, some of the folks playing legit zombies have complained about it, too -- there's no fun in driving out a group when cheaters are on your side. The information about the zerging accounts is a good addition, and some screenshots would cement it. But the 'horrible lies' you've complained about are simply statements that zombies are present in Shearbank, and rumors that DARIS is falling back. You've gotta pick one: either huge hordes of zerg accounts are flooding shearbank, or the suburb is safe and zombie-free. The two are mutually exclusive. --Jeff 15:54, 23 Sep 2005 (BST)

Hey, LibrarianBrent, how is deleting a sentence saying that DARIS found sequentially-named zombies making the article "NPOV"? It seems to me more like "deleting something". Yeah, I guess it could have been phrased a little better, but simply saying "DARIS found sequentially-named zombies" isn't the same as saying "DARIS found zergers (created by the CoL (who suck (lol)))" or anything like that. Mind if I edit it back in, or are you allergic to simple, noncommital sentences? --Katthew 14:48, 1 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Yagoton Under Seige

Just a quick note to let you know there may well be an influx of humans and newly deds fleeing from an attack on the key Yagoton Buildings. Thanks to those guys who revived and healed me and others!

I can definitely agree with this - I'm an eyewitness. I fled Yagoton due to the danger, after trying my best to strike back at the undead - but beyond using up all my supplies healing others, there's not much I could do as a level-one doctor. Heck, it's gotten so bad that, one night when I fell asleep in a police station, I woke up to find it totally gutted - everyone inside was dead. ...Well, except me, for some reason... From all I can see, a lot of parts of the city are seeing increased Zombie activity. And to those who run the Revive Clinic in Yagoton, I wish you all the best - you'll need all the luck you can get. ~~Seraph Kaoru~~

The Whitton Building

It seems I was a bit hasty in assuming resistance had crumbled - the Whitton Building appears to have been retaken, and is very strongly barricaded. I don't think any generators are operational, but there seems to have been an influx of survivors, because many surrounding buildings have been rebarricaded, as well. (Incidentally, I learned just how difficult it is to damage barricades :3). Fight on, citizens! ~~Seraph Kaoru~~

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