Talk:Suggestions/14th-Feb-2007

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Ghouls

Timestamp: The Mad Axeman 15:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Type: New type of undead
Scope: New characters.
Description: This idea is to add a new type of undead to Malton - ghouls. Ghouls look rather like

zombies except that their skin has withered up, drawing close to the bone. This makes them look thin and feral. While zombies lurch through the streets, ghouls scuttle and scamper, as often on all fours as standing up errect.

The option to play a ghoul appears next to the corpse class when creating a new character. GHouls share some skills in common with zombies, but others are unique to them. They begin play with the mutant virus skill (see below).

Because they are faster, ghouls only pay 1 AP to move, rather than 2. All ghouls skills cost 100 ep to learn. They are effected by the headshot skill and syringes in the same way as zombies. A revived ghoul functions like any normal civilian survivor. They pocess claw attacks (20% chance to hit, 2 damage) and the ability to use blunt weapons. They lack bite attacks. They recieve experiece for the same things as zombies.

Ghouls are distinct from zombies but not each other. When in an area containing both, a message along the line of this appears, "There are 7 zombies and three ghouls here."

The skills that ghouls pocess are listed below. The new ones are shown in bold. Those in italics function the same as a given zombie skill, but have been renamed to suit the ghoulish feel. Skill that cross over to surviovrs when purchaes by zombies still do so for ghouls.

  • Scent fear
  • Scent Blood
  • Scent Death
  • Scent Trail
  • Brain Rot
  • Feding Groan
  • Death Rattle
  • Flailing Guestures
  • Ransack
  • Scavanging: Allows the ghoul to search when inside any building. They do not find the same things as survivors, and the exact type of building is irrelivant. Instead, there is a 30% chance that they will find/make something usuable as a club. A club acts the same as anyother blunt weapon (10% to hit, 2 damage) but ghouls can buy skills that improve their performance radically.
  • Lairing: A ghoul can lair in any building that has already been ransacked. A building that has been laired in has its status displayed to anybody entering. Ghouls recieve a +10% search bonus in laired buildings. Survivors destroy a lair at the same time as they repair ransack damage.
  • Feasting: When the ghoul kills a survivor, they instinctively tear chunks out of the body and consume them. After making a kill, the ghoul heals 5 hp in addition to the normal bonuses.
  • Mutant Virus: This skill acts as a flag that tell the game the chartacter is a ghoul rather than a zombie. Because Ghoul move faster than zombies, this skill is equivalent to lurching gait.
  • Regeneration: The ghoul recovers from injuries very fast. Acts like ankle grab.
  • Pouncing: The ghoul can make powerful leaping and lunging attacks. +15% to hit with claws and weapons.
  • Racking: THe ghoul has learnt to attack with the clas on both its hands and feat. +15% to hit with claw attack.
  • Pounding: The ghoul can throw itself at closed doors until the burst open, allowing entry. Works like memories of life.
  • Smashing: The ghoul can swing a weapon with great speed and agression. +20% to hit with blunt weapons and +1 damage. However, after each attack there is a 16% chance that the weapon breaks, hit or miss.
  • Crushing Blow: The ghoul can now attack so fast and hard that they get another +15% to hit and +1 damage with weapons. The break chance remains at 16%.

This gives ghouls a total of 19 skills.

Ghoul claw attacks are less effective than zombie hand attacks, averaging at 1.0 damage per AP at maximum. However, at 50% to hit, they have the same chance to tear down barricades.

Blunt weapons can go as high as 2.4 damage/Ap, compared to 1.71 for a zombie hand attack, but the breakages mean that ghoul has to restock on clubs sooner or later. THe MBA for clubs under the best of circumstances is 1.71 - exactly the same as a zombie hand attack!

However, the need to resuply means that ghouls have far more reason than zombies to be teritorial. To act at peak capacity they need laired buildings, and will fight to control and retain them. Such conflict will become most severe if the lair is also resouces building for survivor.

Clubs can be used to attack barricades giving a maximum 30% chance to drop a barricade. However, against barricades the MBA is only 0.21 compared to 0.25 for claws, so in the long run it isn't worth it.

All over, I've tride to create a new form of undead that has different challenges and playing styles than zombies, but isn't any more powerful than what already exists.

When a survivor dies for the first time, they see all the standard zombie skill displayed on the buy skills page. However, the Mutant Virus skill will also be available. Buying this skill turn the zombie into a ghoul. A warning appears before it is bought, in a similar way similar to Brain Rot. Mutant Virus remains available for purchase until the character buys a skill not normally allowed to ghouls. Once a decision is made either way, it is permanent.

Discussion

I think this would be far, far better if the various ghoul bonuses were just new zombie skills. 99% of ghoul players would come from the ranks of current zombie players, meaning the zombie population would drop by almost exactly the number of new (and temporarily weaker) ghouls. Better to just give zombies the option of playing "ghoul style" with some new skills. Zombies already do 90% of what the ghouls would do, so why make the two different classes? Heck, "lurching gait" is already among the first skills zombies buy. Maybe "ghoul" could be a starting zombie alternative to the corpse class that starts with "pouncing"?

Truth told, the game already allows Ghouls. A Death Cultist makes a fine ghoul, just ask the Gore Corps. --S.Wiers X:00 15:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no rule saying that you have to drop an old zombie to play a new ghoul. With 300 Ip hits availaible, you can have a fair few characters. I think I'm not aoine in playing one character of each type. If this was implemented, I'd be playing one survivor and two undead. The Mad Axeman 10:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This is kind of cool. I'd try it. --Uncle Bill 16:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

This line troubles me: "Mutant Virus remains available for purchase until the character buys a skill not normally allowed to ghouls. Once a decision is made either way, it is permanent." This would mean NO current long-time player could switch over to the new zombie class. A better idea would be to disable those skills when the player buys Mutant Virus. Also, this makes a PERMANENT character class switch, which in my book is a no-no. Once you pick Mutant Virus you are permanently locked out of certain skills and abilities. The appealing thing about Urban Dead is that ANY character can attain ALL skills and can switch to different "sides" at will. Even buying Brainrot has an "escape clause". This does not, which doesn't seem to fit the "spirit" of Urban Dead. --Matt Scott 9 16:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I considered something like this, but struggled to come up with a convincing mechanism to allow contuinual changes between all three character types. However, if you can come up with a method that might work, I'd be more than willing to listen. The Mad Axeman 10:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not just have the Scavanage, Lair, Smashing and Crushing Blow as seperate Zombie skills that Zeds can buy? It would help the zombie population and make them seem like undead. Also encourges Zombies to ransack buildings, and have them deveaste the suburbs...--ShadowScope 17:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I always thought the virus took control of most of their motor functions and made it so zeds cannot pick up weapons (hollywood aside), other than that you do have a point. But don't you think it would be fun to have another class to play as in the game? --Darkvengance 19:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Techincally, the zombies in UD can use blunt weapons, so your flavour idea on virus does not work. And I think more of boosting the Zombie class rather than to create a new one. Can I have premission to submit Scavange, Lair, Smashing and Crushing Blow as an "indepedent" suggestion, just to have at least a part of this idea get into Peer-Review?--ShadowScope 02:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
(Slaps wrist) Get off my idea! I'll probably submit the whole thing at some point, and see how it does... If it bombs, I'll then suggest those skills as a seperate idea. The Mad Axeman 13:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I like what you are getting at but think it would work better as a seperate skill tree for zombies... mutated virus could be opened up at 10th level (like brain rot) and effectively change the zeds 'class' then. I would suggest tweaking this slightly to make them more effective a solo players than zeds currently are thus making them a good option for those who prefere to play ferals!--Honestmistake 22:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

What sort of tweak would you have in mind? The Mad Axeman 10:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest making it so you could only buy the mutated virus at level 10, I think that's what Honestmistake is trying to say --Darkvengance 19:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I think perhaps making them very territorial... If 2 (or more) ghouls were in the same place they would only have the option of either moving away or... attacking their rival! Lair skill is very weak as stands but could be a pre req for a weak hide skill (usable only in buildings or graveyards?) While making ghouls a level 10 choice would be a good idea, i do think that a warning that becoming a ghoul will bar (or negate) certain skills would be essential! Giving ghouls good combat skills and something to differentiate them from humans and zeds would make them very interesting but will probably get them spammed!--Honestmistake 20:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the idea. It doesn't make sense. At all. Zombies make sense, but not ghouls. The game is human vs. zombie, not human vs. zombie and ghoul vs. the world. -Mark D. Stroyer 18:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it would be humans vs zombies and ghouls. The two undead are on the same side. When I said ghouls recieve the same experience as zombies I should have specified that zombie vs ghoul (or ghoul vs Zombie) recieves only half experience, like zking. The Mad Axeman 13:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

How about make this what happens if you revive a Brain Rot zombie in an unpowered NT? It's essentially a Human with a Zombie brain. Brain rotter jabbed, becomes ghoul. When ghoul dies, becomes normal (brain rot) Zombie. The only question is how to make this "optional" (i.e. how to stop brain rotters being ghouled involuntarily) --Gene Splicer 12:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting... How about a character with the mutant virus skill sees two button when they are dead, one which says "Stand up as a zombie" and another which says "Stand up as a ghoul." I'd rather not have Brain rot as a requirement, because,as Matt Scot mentions above, most players like to be able to get all the skills. It would also make playing the undead more interesting, because even if you have bought brain rot, shifting to a different class with a new playing style would be a lot easier. You are right, though. Ghouls do kind of resemble brain rotted humans, and I think thats a good idea. The Mad Axeman 13:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

As far as a dead idea goes this is a pretty good one. This idea won't ever make it into the game as UD has always been a game where everyone will always end up with the same skills. Making class only skills is one of the things i'd like to see implamented in UD but it dosn't seem like it will ever actually happen. FriedFish.ca

I'll take that as a complement! The Mad Axeman 13:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop/Go Pills

Timestamp: Last Ranger 01:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Type: Item
Scope: Survivors
Description: I based this idea off the US Airborne use of Stop and Go amphetamines and barbituates. A controversial issue in the military, the pills are used to keep soldiers whom have been active for a long time going OR put them to sleep quickly for fast rest. I was thinking it might be an interesting idea to make these available ONLY at fort infirmiries/armories with a search percent of %1-3 (powered). When used they would provide the character with either random/fixed amount of 1-5 AP. I'm thinking that maybe a drawback would be the eventual hallucination of sleep deprevity but that could be very taxing on the server...anyway, I'd like to get some input on the feasability. Just another way to give forts more meaning.

Discussion

Okay ... Well, let's see. Is anyone going to spend lots of time searching for them? Yes. Are they going to lose more AP searching than they would gain from the pill? Yes. Is the ability to store AP in your inventory to let you get an edge good? Nope. PKers, using Axes, could pack up on these pills, and then use them all, going on a killing spree to wipe out a few survivors. Survivors could use these in sieges to let them kill more zombies, or barricade more, thereby unbalancing it. With more limitations, this might work - perhaps, when using more than one per day, the chance of missing increasing / the chance of hitting decreasing? A chance of any action failing, which would increase based on the number of pills consumed? A chance of the pill failing (due to bad storage conditions) and removing all of the user's AP?

Basically, while the idea is good, it needs some limitations to change it's usage to more of a last-ditch effort, such as when you find yourself out on a street without enough AP to get inside (because of to many EHB buildings), or when you're being attacked by a zombie and need to get away. --Saluton 02:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That was my same thinking. I want this to be more of a last line of defense then "AP Storage" although I think it would be beneficial for the survivors of a building to have one on hand, maybe they just need that minor boost after killing a zed to dump the body or rebarricade. Maybe a storage cap of one or two. It does need to be considered that there is a total ability of at most %3 to find these in powered forts only, which further narrows the conditions. They wouldn't be commonplace.--Last Ranger 19:41, 13 February 2007 (PST)

I like it. Three AP sounds good to me. --Cap'n Silly T/W/P/CAussieflag.JPG 05:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

How about changing this so that when you take a pill, you can go below 1 AP without "falling asleep?" Say you take a pill, and for your next 5 actions, negative AP (up to some limit, like say -10) will not cause you to "fall asleep". At most, that would let you pop a pill at 1 (taking you to 0), take 4 actions (to -4), pop another pills (-5) and take another 5 actions- leaving you with a whopping -10 AP, meaning you are useless for at least 5 hours, and wont have 50 AP unless you rest for 30 hours. That way there is NO FREE LUNCH- quite as with real pep pills, I might add. If they were balanced this way, you could make them a lot more common. Say, have them found in Hospitals as well as fort infirmaries. But keep them out of drug stores in the mall, whatever you do! --S.Wiers X:00 14:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I also would like slap the NecroTech logo on the pill as well (we need to see more NecroTech presence in Malton) and let zombies use it, you know, for gameplay reason.--ShadowScope 17:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Zombies can't find or use items. How about if you bite a survivor who is under the effects of the pep pill (per above, this won't work with the OP's "gain ap" version) you gain a (single) AP? Would be a nice surprise bonus for a zombie about to run out of AP during a seige- which co-incidentally, is exactly when most zombies resort to biting. --S.Wiers X:00 17:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
That's exactly what I was thinking. It's not supposed to be an "energy pill" but it's a pill that allows you to go beyond what your body is normally capable of, for a limited time. Now if we could work the "stop" pill into the game, maybe as a counter agent?--Last Ranger 14:11, 14 February 2007 (PST)
A "stop" pill could logically be a pill that allowed extra rest- IE, allowed you to accumulate more than 50 AP. Maybe if you took one and performed no other action, your AP total could go up to 55 with enough rest. But I don't think that is needed, or even a good idea, and would vote against it. All the stop pills are for in real life is to keep you from staying awake to long and / or getting insomnia. The above "Go Pill" mechanic already enforces resting, and preserves the "everybody gets the same AP" mechanic the game currently runs on- it just lets you run into negative AP, just as certain skills (necronet access) and game actions (?rise) do. --S.Wiers X:00 17:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This reminds me of Suggestions/24th-Nov-2005#Energy_Drink. --Toejam 16:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Although I don't think we need this in the game, I like Swiers' idea of letting you go into negative AP when you use them (sort of like syringe manufacturing or standing up). That way there's a definite consequence, and you'd really have to think before using them. --Uncle Bill 21:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

This would be cool. A stock of twenty pills and fifteen shotguns, that's a recipe for some impressive pking sprees! No. Kill, lol. --c138 RR - PKer 17:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

There would be a down side though. By the end of your killing spree, you'd be to exhausted to move on and therefore you'd be pretty easy to find. There should also be some kind of a limit to how many you can take without overdosing. --Uncle Bill 15:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that I pointed that out in my comment. However, the suggestions to the suggestion (the pills allowing you to go to -10 AP, but only being usable when at 1 AP) pretty much kill that reason for killing. I should also point out that this a section for comments on developing suggestions; just saying "No. Kill." (and some inaccurate numbers - 15 shotguns contain 30 AP worth of ammo) without offering any way for the suggestion to be improved is a bit counterproductive. The low chance of finding pills would also make that strategy pretty useless, because you would be finding one every 33 - 100 AP, and, while killing large groups of people is impressive, more damage could be done by just using the 600+ AP required to get all of the items you specify to kill people. Really, as it is, it would serve more as an AP sink than a way to get large amounts of AP to kill people. --Saluton 02:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
My sprees tend to be planned weeks in advance... spending 600+ AP beforehand for an impressive strike is something I already do. Btw regarding my 'inaccurate' numbers, I was counting inventory spaces, not AP's. But seriously 50 AP is fine if you're not spending all your game time searching unpowered buildings and manufacturing syringes. --c138 RR - PKer 17:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't have much experience as a PKer, so I don't know how much people normally put into planing. However, in terms of damage to other players, the additional AP needed to obtain the pills would be better spent killing people. And, as for the numbers, I was counting the AP you would use - With 15 Shotguns, you wouldn't need any of the pills, because you would have 20 AP left over to get to the target and away. --Saluton 03:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of them allowing you to go into negative AP but would suggest that they give a 1% penalty per negative AP on any combat action if you take more than 1, this represents the 'amphetamine twitch' and would get very serious on multiple pills (sure you could take 3 or 4 but you would not be very combat effective!) I would also suggest a 1% per pill chance of severe damage due to 'bad' drugs this should be at least 10 or 20 HP per pill taken... Yes these are both serious drawbacks and may make people think twice before taking them but the edge they give may make them worthwhile and just like real life that makes drugs a judgement call with real consequences!--Honestmistake 13:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I LOVE the negative AP idea, since I don't know how many times I got stranded outside because people never heard of a barricading policy. Tryce of Thunder 03:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I also like the negative AP idea, with one caveat. You can never be sure how far down you can go. Say 2 to 5ap randomised, not displayed. So you gain a burst of energy, but it could crap out at any time --Gene Splicer 12:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, the negative AP thing sounds like a great idea indeed. Just set a limit on the number of pills you can take per AP cycle or something. -- Ashnazg 1043, 18 February 2007 (GMT)

Limit of 1. Can only take it if you are on 1ap at the time, and it flags you as "juiced" untill you pass out. Can;tt ake more pils when juiced, you'd hurt your heart. --Gene Splicer 13:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Something like +6 AP but negative 5? --Cap'n Silly T/W/P/CAussieflag.JPG 10:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

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