Talk:The Polecats

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Necrotech Mobile Halloween Party

On Halloween, Necrotech Mobile will have a big, scary party at Clapton Stadium. We would like to see you guys there, and have some fun together. So hopefully we see you guys there! Bring booze! -- Necrotech Mobile 18:53, 25 October 2007 (GMT+2)


One of yours?

headshooting at a revive point is NOT COOL.

http://iwrecords.urbandead.info/08-23-07_0500hrs_PUBLIC/OUT_56-83_Is_this_guy_a_m_1b6-c9a-5cf.html

if so, reign him in, please... if not, add him to a list of imposters so it doesn't look bad on you. --WanYao 04:25, 25 August 2007 (BST)

I'll have a word with him... Though, for the record, I don't see anything (graffiti, etc.) indicating that place is a revive point.
It's on the wiki and is a pretty well known revive point... It's understandable that not everyone knows all that stuff... and if it was sprayed over, yeah... but people should look up the RPs on the wiki nad know about them. I know many don't, I have had a horrible time with a friend of mine getting killed 3 times in 24 hours at RPs in Spicer Hills... at posted RPs, but they got tagged over... feh... But I just wanted to mention it... Now, let's try to keep the mall from LUE... They attack after server reset, 12 midnight in the UK, 8 PM Eastern in North America. BE ONLINE and 'cading! between 8-9 PM eastern, 5-6 Pacific! :) --WanYao 19:22, 1 September 2007 (BST)

Some extra reading... :)

Like I said, I may be critical, but really I'm trying to help... :)

Here are some other guides that IMO are really worth reading, even putting as links within your page.

  • Firstly, this is the zombie response to the Mall Defense Manifesto: The Mall Offense Manifesto ... they study our tactics, we need to study theirs in turn...
  • This is a short, but very good guide to mall defense. In some ways I think it's better than the Mall Defense Manifesto... How to Win a Mall Siege
  • More anti-siege strategy
  • An article on meatshields as part of defense... note that this is not using "meatshield" in a derogatory fashion...
  • And, finally, the infamous article on trenchcoaters ... --WanYao 11:05, 11 August 2007 (BST)
I've since added a new "Required Reading" section, which uses most of these. Thanks much. Polecat1 19:05, 11 August 2007 (BST)

Please allow you to introduce yourselves...

A discussion/debate

Kept for informational Purposes

yours is a brand new group, all of a sudden i noticed its presence on the wiki. i've never met you, i think i maybe saw one of you just today for the first time...

yours is a small group. and a group that is duplicating the efforts of other, established groups in the area who have for some time made it part of their mandate to defend not only the mall, but the whole region. these include the West Grayside Watch and the Grayside Demons. The Knights Templar and the HKGDF, both from Kempsterbank, are also regularly seen in our area, and work to help defend both the mall and the region. as far as i am aware you never contacted my group, posted to our forums etc., to enquire about our efforts or to try to work with us. what groups have you contacted or consulted with ? or did you just unilaterally decalre yourselves the self-appointed guardians of Pole Mall?

yours is also a group with overly ambitious plans for such small numbers... watch towers and strike groups and revive points and maybe even newbie training, wow....

--WanYao 01:00, 13 August 2007 (BST)but why duplicate and compete with the activities of people who are already here? why not join them and help them, instead? even this guide here, which isn't even all that great, says: "Step I - Check the wiki for other groups in your suburb first, and try to contact them if they exist and work with them. If not, proceed to step II." that's just common sense.... the way you've started this group doesn't speak well to your professionalism or genuine dedication to working with the citizens and communities around :Pole Mall.

i'm hoping that my first impressions of your group are mistaken. i'm hoping that you're serious about working with the community of west grayside and its neighbors to improve the safety of all who not only shop at the mall, but who live and work and play -- and, yes, sometimes die -- in the greater Grayside/Kempsterbank region. --WanYao 15:02, 31 July 2007 (BST)

one more thing... your page reads says, "Defending the mall from outside invasion by the zombie hordes, typically by shooting said zombie hordes in the head." Uhm, have you actually READ the Mall Defense Manifesto? you don't waste AP shooting zeds outside the mall...
and have you ever played a feral zed? do you think ferals will be discouraged by a few headshots? when they see a horde gathering at a mall, and think about all those juicy live brains waiting inside, knowing that that they might get a level or two if they help get in... hell no, a few headshots won't discourage a desperate, hungry feral if he smells wet cortex, it'll just make him ANGRY.
and nowhere on your page do you mention the Mall Defence Mantra: 'Cade. Heal. Kill. Dump.
Nowhere...
who are you guys, anyway? we don't even know who your leadership is, who your members are, your background and skills in seige defense etc., nothing... i mean, hell, i'm a newb myself... and you have established NO credibility, not even with with me... --WanYao 15:46, 31 July 2007 (BST)

Sorry I haven't posted a response to this message; I'm pretty new to the wiki and wasn't checking the 'discussion' section. You've presented quite a few issues you have with this group, so I'll attempt to address them each indiviually, in the same order you gave them to me.

First, I recognize that there are other groups operating in the area which are larger and more well-established--WGW, Knights Templar, the Demons (I haven't seen any HKGDF, though I'm sure they're around). However, as you said, these groups are focused on defending their respective suburbs, West Grayside or Kempsterbank. The Polecats are focused on the Mall itself. Despite being larger groups, I rarely see members of these groups in the mall, probably because they've taken the advisable step of sleeping in less heavily populated areas. In doing so, however, they miss out on many of the interactions among people who do sleep in the mall. Thus, we serve a smaller sub-community of the people the larger groups already represent, and are not duplicating such groups services.

I recognize that I failed to consult the West Grayside Watch before forming this group, nor did I inquire on any sort of forum about our mutual cooperation. (The actions of the Polecats are almost entirely coordinated in-game, without metagame interaction, which may contribute to this lack of forum participation.) I do not, however, see why it would be required that a group seek permission before forming. As to working with you, I am open to the idea, and would welcome the chance to assit in your own operations, but I don't think extensive communication is needed to insure our efforts aren't at cross-purposes. We're all working on the same barricades, after all.

So, did we unilaterally declare ourselves the guardians of Pole Mall? Perhaps so. But we surely didn't imply that we were the only such guardians, nor did we attempt to pursue actions which would put us in conflict with the mall's other defenders.

You accuse our group's plans of being overly ambitious. However, I don't recall there being anything on this wiki page about strike groups or newbie training programs. The revive point we mention defending is the cemetary adjoining the Younghusband Arms, which is already an established revive point used by practically every individual in and around the mall, including members of the Watch. As for the watchtowers, all they require is a single individual to maintain the barricades, fuel the genny for the radio, and patrol out before reporting back in. Three towers equals three members, which from a group of about ten isn't precisely what I'd call 'overly-ambitious.'

As I mentioned before, we are not duplicating the activities of existing groups, and are certainly not 'competeing' with them. I will repeat: We're all building the same barricades here. As to contacting established groups, I have already said that very little in the way of metagaming occurs in the Polecats. If I had seen a reasonable presence from any of these older groups, I would have gladly wasted AP to say 'hi' and introduce our organization. However, I will not take it upon myself to find your forum and post messages asking your permission to do things we should all be doing anyway.

I'd like to thank you for reserving judgement until I could address your complaints. I hope to demonstrate to you the sincerity of the Polecats in aiding the community of Pole Mall and, by extension, the surrounding suburbs. While we may do so seperately from your organization, and in slightly different ways, I am certain we can work together to serve and protect the mall that we call home. Polecat1 19:38, 9 August 2007 (BST)

As to your other comments:

Half the things you've commented on clearly indicate you haven't read the entire page, because so many of the things you're complaining about are taken out of context. For instance, the part about shooting zeds is clearly followed immediatly by the disclaimer that "However, it is to be noted that, as a zombie's usual response to this is to immediatly stand up as if nothing had happened, fighting in this manner is usually not as effective as it seems." So obviously, we're aware that this isn't the end-all-be-all of defense. It isn't even a very good starting point; perhaps by listing it first I've created the illusion that this is the foremost goal we are pursueing, and if you think that is the case I would gladly shift the 'Defense' section to the very bottom of the page.

Addressing the comment about playing as a feral; no, I've never played feral, but I don't see shooting zombies as attracting more zombies than there were already, esspecially because we're camped in a mall, which, if the zombie thinks about it, is a pretty likely place for us to be. Its not like I've led them back to the secret headquarters or anything, and making a zombie 'ANGRY,' as you put it, will not increase the amount of AP he has, nor does it endow him with super-zombie powers. Also, actions taken during a seige are quite different from those during relative tranquility. If feral zombies are being consistently deprived of their AP throughout these peaceful periods (during which they have little chance of penetrating the mall on their own), I truly expect them to gravitate toward more inviting hunting grounds. Perhaps this is not the case, and if you have experience playing as a feral (which you seem to imply), I would invite further discussion of this topic.

About not mentioning the Mall Defense Mantra: You are correct; these four words should rightly be written in bold font at the very top of our policies sections. Failing to do so was a mistake on my part, and I'll gladly implememnt this change posthaste. Not only is it crucial to a durable mall defense, its also kinda catchy.

About the whole "who are you guys anyway": So far I haven't posted any sort of 'Members' list for fear of reprisals from Pkers. We actually spend a lot of our time fighting PKers, especially during peace-times, and I would be loathe to risk any organized PKing attack against our group as a whole. It simply didn't seem wise. However, I'm fairly new at this, and if you feel a listed posting of our membership would be helpful, I'd be interested in your rationale. As for our background in seige defense, I'll admit to having participated in zero (0) protracted seiges, but have read the literature, as it were, on such battles and encourage all members of the Polecats to do likewise. Credibility comes with time, so its not surprising we don't have much right now. If you spend some time in the mall itself, however, I think you'll find we're fairly active and respected within that community. Polecat1 19:38, 9 August 2007 (BST)


Again, I'll state that I'm speaking for MYSELF, and these are my own opinions, I am not representing the group of which I am a member.
My comments were NOT about establishing pecking orders amongst groups. I was trying to establish a degree of credibility, sussing you people out from all the trenchies with plans of world salvation, who seem to need to see their names in the group pages, but offer little else constructive. And, by the way, there are many “established” groups who have little or no credibility with me, it's not about size or age... although that can be a factor... And it's not about needing “permission” to form your group, you don't need that -- it is about communicating and working with the people already here, it's kind of about being polite, and about working together, not at cross purposes. And it helps to make friends, so you don't get people doing what I just did, asking, “Who the hell are these people???”
Anyway, I'm glad you addressed some of my concerns that made your page seem a little trenchy to me. Failing to put “Cade, Heal, Kill, Dump” in big bold letters... a little over-emphasising “killing” zeds as opposed to more constructive (literally) actions. It's just that I'm really sensitive to and easily irritated by all the players and groups who are “KILL KILL KILL all the zeds, shoot 'em dead, mate, oi oi oi!” you know? It's lame role playing, and lame strategy, and just plain immature and silly. Call me an ass, but I make fun of that stuff at every chance I get, I loathe it.
Anyway...
You're right, most of us don't seem to hang out in the Mall much... For me, too much PKing, and I'm in other parts of the burb doing stuff (namely farming XP for the moment...).
As for not metagaming, well here's the thing... I'm new, but I've studied a lot of the theory and practice of sieges... And it seems to me that metagaming is the key to recent zombie superiority, and you can agree or disagree but I believe that the humans need to catch up or they don't stand a chance... Organisation is key, and so is communication. Between multiple player groups. Then there is the fact that Kevan, sadly, nerfed survivors big time (and this is one of the only things he's done that I think was bad, overall I think the game is VERY balanced) when he made it so you only can talk to the top 50 players in a building. That REALLY hinders in-game communication, and kind of forces survivors into the metagame, IMO. And, forums allow such things as the posting of Iwitness scouting reports, Pkers lists, planning of operations away from prying eyes, etc. etc. So don't limit yourselves... I think wanting to play mostly in-game is quite laudable from an RP perspectice, actually, I dig that you know... but it might just not be the most pragmatic choice, unfortunately...
Also, keep in mind that the survival of a mall depends a lot on the safety of buildings in the surrounding suburb. So while you guys are busy defending the mall, you and your allies are going to need the services (like revives provided by) of those who are defending the Nts and other TRPs... and you're going to need fallback positions if the mall does fall, and allies and friends if you want to organise a fast retake of the mall. And put simply, you can't do that alone, you need other groups in on it. That's my point, put very simply.
As for my comments on playing a feral, I was referring to angry ferals attacking the surrounding buildings, not the mall. Of course a feral will just leave a well guarded mall, but those “more inviting hunting grounds” could be a merely few blocks away, and that hurts a lot of people, and in turn weakens the mall's defense as well. That's the crux of my whole argument: the mall is only part of the surrounding neighborhood, and its safety is tied into the safety of the whole area, it's not just self-contained.
And as for fighting Pkers, well do what you feel you need to, I guess. But I wonder if those Aps might not be better spent checking and maintaining 'cades etc. in the surrounding buildings, etc. Just a thought.
Anyway, I just want to end by welcoming you West Grayside! :) I may be critical, but my criticism is meant constructively... even if I do get flamey at times... I look forward to working together when the siege does inenvitably come... Let's hope we can manage to turn the tide of one mall falling after another... --WanYao 10:10, 11 August 2007 (BST)

Thanks for your criticism. You bring up a lot of issues that I'd actually like to address, both within my group and in the community at-large. First off, having re-read parts of this wiki page, some of it did seem a little trenchy to me, so thanks for helping me get that cleaned up. I agree with you about that whole stratedgy being pretty weak, not to mention annoying.

You're also right about the metagaming issue. Survivors, as a whole, are kind of getting screwed over as far as communication goes, and forums can really help to even things up. Actually, I'd be interested in getting a forum page for the Polecats; I've been meaning to do so for a while but I'm not sure where to start. I'd still like to make pretty extensive use of in-game communication, however, both for RP reasons and so that unaffiliated survivors will have some idea of our presence here.

From what I've seen, there are four Necrotech Buildings within easy reach of the mall. I'm not so big on protecting PDs or hospitals (since honestly the mall's a better place to get ammo and FAKs), but protecting the NTs is vital, I'll agree. In a sense, they're the most important thing in the game, since they're the only way for us to remain human. From a game perspective, there's really no way for the survivors to outright 'win,' but the zombies can win if they can keep every single NT ransacked and full of zeds- if you haven't already, check out the Salt the Land Policy. So I can agree that defending Necrotechs is pretty crucial.

A good solid fallback position is something I hadn't thought of, but now that you mention it seems like a no-brainer. I'll have to try and find out the approximate radius a mall seige would generally effect (so it can be located just outside of that), but it could turn out we use one of the watchtowers (probably PWW) for that purpose.

Its true that ferals are probably going to wind up hitting buildings in the immediate vicinity, rather than moving farther afield like I'd hoped they would. However, there may be other advantages to attacking ferals. Pole Mall has two main entry points, the Younghusband Arms and Purt Walk Fire Station. Since a zombie stands a good chance of being able to get all the way through VSB+2 with one days worth of AP, we're kind of dealing with the problem of short-term break-ins about every other day. It takes an average of 4 AP per level of barricading removed (for a zombie with Vigor Mortis and Death Grip) so to remove VSB+2 (10 levels of barricading) takes around 40 AP. A headshot therefore effectively halves the amount of damage a zombie can do once it breaches the barricades, as well as increasing the chances of their not having enough AP to break it down completely. Naturally, this is only advantageous during non-seige situations, when there are more survivors than zombies in the area and the mall's barricades are not under direct attack. Also, it is still more advantageous to barricade these entry points back up to VSB+2 before attacking the zombies.

Anyway, thanks for your advice. I look forward to working with you all next time a horde is in town. Polecat1 18:26, 11 August 2007 (BST)

Here's the weird thing... I had NO IDEA that Pole Mall got sacked a few days ago. None at all... To me that's a little weird... Hey, that was NOT directed at you at all... I'm just feeling kind of dumbfounded that I didn't hear it on the radio or in the forums or anything... Was it a quick LUE strike or what?
Oh and yeah I know about Salt the Land... And, I'm really not sure whether defending Hospitals and PDs is important or not. I appreciate that malls are better for searches, but what about all the players who don't have Shopping? And what about using these places are part of the fallback plan? I don't know... it's all theory to me, really... All said and done it looks like you have far more experience and knowledge in this than I do... --WanYao 01:15, 12 August 2007 (BST)

Yeah, the last real whomping we got was the LUE. I was actually active at the time, which is a first for me. I logged on, barricades at EHB, I went to add someone to my contacts list and by the time I was back I was dead and there were 70 inside. I have to hand it to them, those guys are well-organized, and I'm having trouble thinking of anything that's going to be completely effective against those sorts of attacks. Polecat1 00:02, 13 August 2007 (BST)

here's a thought... LUE and most other hordes attack in unison at specific times, that's how they are so successful. If we can figure those times out (and no FTR, to any oversensitive zeds reading this -- no, not by spying... but by using publically available information... whether its from the wiki or through observation of actual attacks, all perfectly valid and fair) and make sure that people are online at that exact time to fight off the attack... And even if we can't figure out the specific times of their attacks, it makes sense to have people lots of people logged on definately at the server refresh, and ideally some people checking in on the hour, every hour -- zed attacks are almost always coordinated on the hour, from what i have seen... if they're not, and are coordinated spontaneously through IRC, then there's not much we can do, i guess, except remain vigilant and hope to get lucky.....
But, yeah, I'm sure not how to deal with such a large AND well organised horde... other than large numbers of very vigilant and active defenders. But getting that kind of concentrated survivor strength may be impossible... sigh. But in any event, I just want to make a fight of it at least, even if it's a sisyphian task, try last more than 10 minutes at least :) --WanYao 01:00, 13 August 2007 (BST)
You're invited to send a "diplomat" West Grayside Watch's forum. Just check our wiki... --WanYao 12:42, 13 August 2007 (BST)


Thanks for the invitation to speak to the WGW, we are always happy to speak to survivors whose objectives are similar to ours. Also, thank you for giving us the benefit of the doubt before classifying us as trenchies. The Polecats know that the most important thing is survival, not killing zeds, and we will try to ensure that zeds will begin to see Pole Mall as too difficult to attack. I think the best idea for our groups, and any groups in this area, is to both have warning of zed attacks and the ability to retreat to maintained fallback points to regroup and either wait out the storm or attempt to retake the mall. Thanks for the good criticism WanYao. -PolecatBro 14:16 14 August 2007 (EST)

The Great Suburb Group Massacre

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Returned to west greyside as per your request. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 13:45, 19 August 2008 (BST)

--RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 13:45, 19 August 2008 (BST)


The Great Suburb Group Massacre 2009

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