UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/Spiderzed vs Doc Ryleigh

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Spiderzed vs Doc Ryleigh

The Cobra group page is currently contested. As the contesting party hasn't come forward yet with any proposals for an acceptable solution, I will go ahead in order to resolve this edit conflict.

Main contester is User:Doc Ryleigh, Cobra's former leader. (Associated contesters include, but aren't necessarily limited to User:Goribus and User:Urgggggggh.)

Doc Ryleigh has stopped to be the leader over a year ago and has since been succeeded by two other leaders, namely User:Sage Carr and myself (as evident in the group pages uncontested history). My own leadership position has also been cemented by a recent internal poll, which I entered uncontested.

Doc Ryleigh was unhappy with the current administration and policies. Rather than to try to get back into position by convincing the members to adjust policies and personell, she has tried to grab attention by a sneak PKing attack while she still had diplomat access to our forums. After the majority of the members has voiced to kick her out completely, she got in control of the old root admin account and abused it to claim control of the group's old forums, throwing out everyone who dared to speak up against her claim.

I restarted new forums, and had the majority of the group actively following me to them. (10 confirmed separate members on the new forums, leaving a maximum of 4 members to Doc Ryleigh's rogue faction - all of whom have been idle for months and solely returned for the recent drama.)

As the rogue faction lacks popular support by the members and can back up its claims on the page only on lost titles and stolen forums access, it has no business to claim any ownership or editing rights for Cobra or any of its associated sub-pages, talk pages, categories, templates, recruitment ads, guides or images.

As per Umbrella precedent, they are free to start a new group, even under a similar name, but not by vandalizing a page they have no ownership of.

I propose the following arbitrators:

I'll await now the response by the contesting party. -- Spiderzed 18:55, 20 June 2011 (BST)

I offer to arbitrate. I'm vaguely familiar with the facts, and I hate all of you just as much.--Yonnua Koponen T G P ^^^ 19:05, 20 June 2011 (BST)

I can arbitatortot this shit. I don't know who either of you niggas is but I promise to solve this lest we want another Tupac and Biggie death. I propose a rap battle. --Sonny Corleone DORIS I jizzed in my pants pr0n 19:39, 20 June 2011 (BST)

I feel a bit of background knowledge might be best suited to the arbitrator in this case and as I know none, I doubt I'd be a particularly fitting arbitrator for this case, so even if I were picked I'd probably sit this one out. -- ϑanceϑanceevolution 20:42, 20 June 2011 (BST)

I'm intrigued that you put me up in your list of arbitrators. While I thank you for your trust in me I'm afraid I have to decline (should I be accepted by the other party, which I doubt but anyway). I do actually have a lot of experience in inner group drama and can closely relate to the issue at hand. However, I'm extremely busy at the moment and I really won't have time for this. I'll definitely keep an eye on the case though. Good luck. -- Cat Pic.png Thadeous Oakley Talk 21:28, 20 June 2011 (BST)

I have no expectation of being accepted but I'll offer to arbitrate anyway. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 23:06, 20 June 2011 (BST)

Having caught up on your old arbie cases tonight, I would accept you. Ryleigh? -- Spiderzed 00:07, 21 June 2011 (BST)

I'll offer to arbitrate. I may not be Spiderzed or Ryleigh's top choice but I'm a nuetral party and just so happen to have a good deal of free time on my hands at this point in time. ~Vsig.png 01:14, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Vapor would work for me too. -- Spiderzed 07:15, 21 June 2011 (BST)

Annabell/Ryleigh has agreed to let me handle this on her behalf.

First I'd like to clarify several things. Spiderzed by his own admission on the original Cobra forums is a temporary leader. And both he and his faction stated in March that if the previous leader (Sage) returned then he would step down. Sage has not returned, but the previous leader before him has and decided to take her group back. The whole killing Spiderzed had nothing to do with anything. It was just a for laughs thing. Ryleigh and I were both amused by the idea of a Cobra civil war, but quickly just decided to kill Sally and take the forum back.

Spiderzed is also grossly exaggerating what happened. Before becoming leader Ryleigh was named leader and had the Root Admin account and the founder User:Bullgod 's account and password in case she would need either during her run as leader. Spiderzed had neither. Which is how Ryleigh was able to reclaim the forums. No one was thrown out. They were just demoted to normal members. All of which were welcome to reapply. A good chunk got butthurt and deleted their accounts. Spiderzed included. Ryleigh has emailed Bullgod just to prove that the founder of the group gives his blessing for a former commander that he knows take the leadership from a temporary leader that I'm almost certain he's never met. If membership numbers are suddenly pertinent, I'm in talks with several PKers about joining our faction. But I'm fairly sure numbers are completely irrelevant in determining group leadership/ownership and therefore determining ownership of the wiki-page.

We reject all of his arbitrators and instead suggest the following:

In closing, I'm not exactly sure why this is even going to arbitration. But whatever. When it's all said and done it's just going to be another piece of evidence that Cobra isn't Spiderzed's nor was it ever his. -- Goribus 04:17, 21 June 2011 (BST)

I don't think suggesting personal friends as impartial arbitrators is going to work for this case, might take this into consideration. -- Cat Pic.png Thadeous Oakley Talk 07:07, 21 June 2011 (BST)
I recognize Goribus as agent. - Oh, and while rejecting all arbitrators out of hand is an often used tactic on A/A, it works only if you don't want arbies to take off at all and are happy with the status quo. You, however, wish for change. Stagnation isn't your friend in this one. -- Spiderzed 07:15, 21 June 2011 (BST)
Close friends? Devil Ash and I barely know each other. Although we are on good terms. I don't think I've spoken to Karloth except maybe once in IRC. YOG as we both know is a neutral party. I wouldn't count him as a friend in this matter. Also I didn't reject all arbitrators. Just all of the ones you suggested as your list is as seemingly biased in your favor as you claim mine is in my favor. Karek? I'll consider. The others? No. Accept or reject my Arbitrators so we can either continue until we agree on an Arbitrator or to the next step please and thanks. -- Goribus 07:52, 21 June 2011 (BST)
pass. i would just like to remain neutral and not involved. i already tried to work this out internally and didn't get anywhere.-- HEY! HANDS OFF MAH BOOBS!   bitch   COBRA!   אמת 14:08, 21 June 2011 (bst)
I have already decided that Karek is acceptable (and he wasn't on my original list, nor on yours). Shall we thus proceed with him? -- Spiderzed 18:40, 21 June 2011 (BST)
Yeah I'll accept Karek. -- Goribus 09:08, 22 June 2011 (BST)

I would attempt to arbitrate impartially, but I can see why Spiderzed wouldn't accept me (specifically, both Goribus and I are members of Red Rum). That said, I know nothing about the situation whatsoever and would need to read up on it all.--Karloth Vois ¯\(°_o)/¯ 12:13, 21 June 2011 (BST)

Just thought I'd throw my hat into the ring as well. I am uninvolved in the current situation but I have a equal conflict-of-interest in both parties (Gorbius as a fellow member of Red Rum and Spizerzed as a fellow sysop whom I have a lot of respected for) and so I feel that I have no overriding bias. Anyway, I'm here as a "third option".--The General T Sys U! P! F! 14:55, 21 June 2011 (BST)

I accept my nomination--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS DORISFlag.jpg LOE ZHU | Яezzens 20:17, 21 June 2011 (BST)

Motherfuckers accept me. I'm like the best Arbitatortot ever. I made Arby's the fast good joint it is today. --Sonny Corleone DORIS I jizzed in my pants pr0n 00:50, 22 June 2011 (BST)

Not getting enough attention at home? We're coming to get you, Barbara 01:22, 22 June 2011 (BST)

As agreed, Karek will arbitrate this. Let's cut to the meat, please. -- Spiderzed 21:46, 22 June 2011 (BST)


So, first thing I want to make clear about this process. You've both chosen me. I arbitrate the wiki, not the group. As far as I am concerned this case will only be about the wiki page in question and what the solution will be to the disputed content. The dispute of who is a leader in Cobra is a drama you all will have to sort out yourselves.

I'm going to give you both a chance now, in light of that information, to make a short argument for why each of you thinks you have more right to the wiki page in question. Please remember to site sources for your arguments as I am obviously not a member of Cobra, either of them. Above all else I need a timeline of leadership events from both of you. Along with, if possible, an accounting of the events that caused the current dispute(including an idea of who is involved with either side for future reference) and an outline of what both of you would respectively like your new pages to look like. For the latter any visual representation of the page content(like a Sandbox page) would be preferable.

None of this is limiting but that is the minimum of what I'd like to see. If you feel something is relevant to the content of the page or possible page ownership by all means, add it.--Karekmaps 2.0?! 23:23, 22 June 2011 (BST)


Important disclaimer: As some of you might have noticed, I'm a bit late on my opening. The reason for this is that I currently have no access to the non-public parts of the old Proboards anymore. Links were taken and collected by the time before Annabell's coup or retrieved from my browser cache. In many cases, that leads to a lack of verbatim quotes, and it is very possible that links don't work anymore due to moved threads.

In order to keep the arbitration still going, I have instead sent links to Karek and asked him to retrieve screenshots for the purposes of this arbitration. I will add the points referring to those internal posts as soon as I hear back from Karek. -- Spiderzed 14:53, 24 June 2011 (BST)


These would currently be the following:

Associated wiki accounts were added where known to me and where I had good reason to assume that the member would be fine with being publicly linked, but might not be complete. -- Spiderzed 14:53, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Page look and content

As for the look and content of the Cobra page, I'd be happy with the latest revision by myself. Member numbers would probably be need to adjusted as the contester faction officially leaves the group, and we would also need to reconsider our alliances on Cobra/Diplomacy in the light of RDD backing up the rogue faction, but the forums link and leadership information would be correct in that regard. -- Spiderzed 14:53, 24 June 2011 (BST)

Leadership Timeline
  • Bullgod founds the group in 07/2008 under his character Beehive Head.
  • Bullgod officially retires from UD in 07/2009, passing admin and leadership to Sister Elissavet.
  • Sister Elissavet is caught zerging in 07/2009 and finally turns over the keys to Annabell Leigh in 12/2009
  • Annabell leaves the group in 05/2010 and hands keys over to Sage Carr.
Annabell Leigh
I have no time these days and I feel bad about leaving you guys hanging. I've passed the big shiny key on to Sage Carr.
Annabell Leigh
I actually left the group recently. Not sure why I still have this level of access, but yeah. If anyone wants to keep in touch you can find me as Marlea on the Legends of Darkness board and as (Adress censored by me for privacy reasons) on MSN.
Good luck and have fun.
Sally A Summers
I've looked into that, but can't change your access. Unless you feel that strongly about it that I should delete your account completely (which I can do on my own apparently), you'll have to wait for Sage to get back to you.
Not that there's much to read, see or learn in our sekrit parts currently :-X
Sage Carr
Annabel has been granted Diplomat status - I'm fairly sure that mods should be able to change those things, but whatever, it's done now. I'm not in any huge hurry to restrict her access anyway - it's not as though our interests should ever come into conflict, and she's been a part of his group for as long as I havel, or near enough.
  • In the time from roughly 12/2010 on, Sage goes increasingly missing, with his last login in 02/2011. As we lacked someone officially representing our group at that time to recruits and outsiders, in March '11 other members nominated me to become also de jure leader, rather than just de facto leader, which I plainly accepted: Screenshot
  • As Sage Carr remained AWOL and the assumption was that he probably never returns, I decided to settle things properly and put my position up for election, announcing that action on June 2 2011.
    This was announced in timely manner in a mass PM, as evidenced by the members Cutey and Isabella, by bounty hunters(!) Carrie Cutter and Robbie the Rabbit, and even by myself(!). A PM with exactly the same time stamp and text from myself reaching even BHers and myself should prove that this was a mass PM sent to _every_ single member.
    I could indeed have used a mass e-mail. However, ProBoards requires users to actively opt in in their profile settings to receive mass e-mails, something at least I am wary of doing. I figured the chances that users enable e-mail notification for PMs would be much better than the chance of them having turned that setting on.
    Despite asking for counter-candidates to contest me, no one else did, and so I passed the vote unanimously, finally making me the very first Cobra leader who was legitimated by direct vote of the members rather than by appointment.
    As I'd like to point out, all of this happened before June 8, so the contesting faction had access to that poll in that time, and could easily have raised a counter-candidate and voted him into position.
  • On June 8 2011, a sneak attack on our members happened, led by Annabell Leigh. After we had tried to investigate and pacify the situation by talking to RDD, Annabell and all members involved in the sneak attack were booted on June 14 2011. (Note that the post by me was deleted, but can be retrieved from my personally saved public forums history: Screenie)
  • On June 16 2011, Annabell used access to the root admin account to perform a Grim-style coup and take over the Proboards presence of Cobra. (It is also interesting to note that she held on that account despite stepping herself down as leader, rather than to hand the account data over to Sage Carr or myself. I will leave it to our arbitrator to interpret this fact.)
    Rather than to recognize Annabell as leader, the above-mentioned members voted with their feet and migrated to the new Cobra forums administrated by myself.

Page Ownership

Now that I got all of Karek's minimum requirements out of the way, it is time to cut to the heart of the dispute.

To kick this off, first let us take a look at the wiki guidelines:

UDWiki: Specific Case Editing Guidelines
Group Pages
Due to constant interference between groups on the wiki, editing privileges are heavily codified. Groups, for the most part, have sole property of their Group page on the wiki, and may place whatever they wish on that page, under the proviso that they do not break any current established content restrictions (for example, Groups may not post pornography on Group pages, and may not impersonate other users). This includes the inclusion of users on "PK lists" or "Enemy lists" - Groups are quite allowed to place users on PK lists, and while it is expected that the reasons for inclusion be accurate, this is not a requirement. We recommend that all users treat PK lists with a good serving of salt, as information is rarely completely accurate on this lists.

An exception to this broad authority is the information that precedes the first heading of the page. While the rest of the page is allowed to be as biased and full of propaganda as the group wishes, the top section (known as the "definitional section", or "introduction"), must be written from a Neutral Point of View, ie a view that does not forward any particular agenda. Any information included in this section must be able to be confirmed. Many long, protracted battles have been fought over claims about "zerging" and "PKing" about certain groups, so while there is no real rule against this, we recommend that such claims not be included in such groups, not even in opinional form (ie "Some people claim that <Group> uses zerging tactics") or attributional form (ie "The group <Group 1> have made claims that that <Group 2> uses zerging tactics"). Groups are, of course, welcome to broadcast this information if they desire.

Group Talk: Pages
Group talk pages, like their main page, are under the ownership of their group. Group leaders are allowed to remove dead conversation, or any other action, under the provison that they do not break any current established content restrictions, as above. However, it is considered extremely bad form to wipe conversations without leaving a record, especially on Group talk pages, and we recommend that groups instead create Archive sub-pages in which to store dead conversations and the like.

This text speaks four times of "group" and only once of "group leader", and grants the latter solely the explicite permission to handle the talk page. This way, the wiki acknowledges that there is a multitude of ways to run a group, and puts the emphasis on the group rather than on particular individuals.

Now, which is the form of leadership that Cobra is and has always been run under? I will quote the creator Bullgod on his vision about the leadership:

Sage Carr
Our wiki page states that we have no current leader. I had assumed that Beehive Head, being the founder, would be leading us...

BH, is this not the case?? Or is their an ulterior motive here? A shrouding in secrecy, or some such?
well the thing is i left that off for a few reasons.

first of all if im vocally the boss that equals me being killed alot more in game, as the leader is always prime target. for a PKer group this is much worse.

second i don't really lead nothin, i just take charge the most to keep order. every one is equally treated as far as suggesting ideas go, as always what we do is up to vote, if no one wants to do it its not done, simple as that.

third, i haven't decided if i actually want to be the leader or if we even need one. i mean i am the founder, and admin of the forum, so i can take care of our stuff on the wiki and here (saw you on there too sage, glad to have the help) but really i think we don't need someone giving orders unless thats something we really need, in which case id step up.

As you can see from point #2 and #3, Bullgod's vision was a very egalitarian one, where members get a strong role, and nothing happens without the members actually supporting it. The leader of Cobra is only as strong as the people who actually back him up and follow him.

But as existing policy puts the emphasis anyway more on groups than on group leaders, we sure need to look at them first. Now, what is it that defines a group? UDWiki has no policy on that, so the English language has to suffice:

Group (noun). […] 2 a.) a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationship.
Encyclopaedia Britannica
Social group: Any set of human beings who either are, recently have been, or anticipate being in some kind of interrelation.
In the social sciences a group can be defined as two or more humans who interact with one another, accept expectations and obligations as members of the group, and share a common identity. […] A true group exhibits some degree of social cohesion and is more than a simple collection or aggregate of individuals, such as people waiting at a bus stop, or people waiting in a line. Characteristics shared by members of a group may include interests, values, representations, ethnic or social background, and kinship ties. Paul Hare regards the defining characteristic of a group as social interaction. The members of the groups contact each other which Ackeema Johnson calls a "regular interaction." This group also should have, a common identity, rules, structure, etc.

Regardless which definition we check, the emphasis is always on the members making up the group, and their acceptance of shared views and policies.

Now the question is, how do we determine who is an active member sharing the group's views, goals and policies?
As Cobra is a PKer group, the defining activity of us is PKing, which in the case of our group is accounted for in the Trophy Lounge. Sadly, our trophy lounge got hidden in the secret parts of the Proboards forums, but I had the mental acuity to snap the data in time and can thus check on some interesting data:

  • Annabell Leigh: Last kill before the coup in 06/2010
  • Doc Mindbender: Last kill before the coup in 01/2010
  • Goribus: Last kill before the coup in 12/2009
  • Skoll: Was never a member during the relevant time.
  • Your Own Guilt: Irrelevant, as he is neutral on this dispute.

On the other hand, the faction supporting my claim remained active:

  • Cexylikepie: Last kill in 06/2011
  • Cutey Snugglekins: Last kill in 06/2011
  • Isabella Scott: Last kill in 06/2011
  • Kirsty Cotton: Last kill in 06/2011
  • Master 0f Doritos: Last kill in 06/2011
  • Mr. Blahman: Last kill in 06/2011
  • Ms. Domino Harvey: Last kill in 06/2011
  • Sally A Summers: Last kill in 06/2011
  • Your Own Guilt: Irrelevant, as he is neutral on this dispute.
  • Zooey Dahmer: Last kill in 06/2011

As unlike me Karek has full access to the old Proboards, he is free to check on this and verify those dates.

Some random observations in the end
  • When Doc Ryleigh passed the leadership to Sage Carr and later even left the group, why did she hang on the root admin account? For a leader who cares more about the good of the group and less about personal gain, it sure would have been best practice to entrust such vital data to the actual leader Sage Carr, rather than to keep them up your sleeve?
  • Doc Ryleigh was for a long time able to read up on internal debates using the root admin account after having officially left the group, without telling anyone else about it. To my knowledge, forum spying is heavily frowned upon in the metagame. Would it be in the best interest of the UD community and of the wiki as official information source to reward such behaviour by granting editing rights based on it?
    Also note that this wasn't an isolated instance of Doc Ryleigh showing a loose stance on the commonly accepted community standards. Why did it take full 5 months between Elissavet's zerg listing and her replacement? Especially as another group that both were members of, the Feral Undead, already dealt with Elissavet one month after the listing. Sure that would have been the latest point where they would have become aware of that problem and dealt with it appropriately?
  • How was it possible that bounty hunters were able to receive and respond in timely manner to the mass PM, while actual members, who by their own claim care strongly about the group, couldn't? As active members, they sure must have exchanged PMs before and noticed if e-mail notification is turned off?

I'll happily leave it up to Karek to interpret these observations and come to conclusions about them. -- Spiderzed 16:25, 27 June 2011 (BST)


Why our faction should be considered the true Cobra in regards to Urban Dead's Wiki.


  • Annabell Leigh
  • Jim Lockwood
  • Doc Mindbender
  • Skoll
  • Your Own Guilt (neutral in the dispute, but has agreed to work with us)
  • Several other PKers have been approached about joining as well

Leadership Timeline:

  • Bullgod founds the group in July '08 under his character Beehive Head.
  • Bullgod officially retires from UD in July '09 passing admin and leadership to Sister Elissavet.
  • Due to drama/scandal Sister Elissavet steps down as leader passing leadership to Annabell Leigh December of '09
  • Annabell leaves the group partially due to not having time to play and partially because as she said at the time "I hate one of the new members" who turned out to be Spiderzed. She retires and passes leadership to Sage in May of '10. It was during this time that I idled my own character as apparently several other Cobras did as well. I'll be honest, Annabell is the only reason I stayed active in Cobra.
  • Sage goes missing. Spiderzed's friends nominate him as temporary leader under the provision that should Sage (or a former leader) return that he'll step down. March '11
During this time Cobra was more or less filled with Spiderzed's friends and older members were for the most part idled. Some of us came back and were appalled at how things were being ran.
  • Annabell decides to unretire and I come back with her. Together we put together a small but loyal contingent of Cobra members wanting a return to the old group and old leadership. Using the Root Admin account/Bullgod's personal account Annabell takes control of the forum and group. He had given her said account and password when she was the leader of Cobra. The temporary leader Spiderzed had gotten comfortable in his position and had refused to return the group. He was executed and booted out. Shortly there after is when Annabell seized the forums. June 16th 2011

I feel that we deserve to be recognized as the sole owners of Cobra as Annabell is a former leader appointed by a proper chain of command, and has had the blessing of the group's founder in the past. Spiderzed by his own admission and the admission of his underlings was a temporary leader made leader by his circle of friends. He then promptly ran the group into the ground from our perspective. The group was taken back and he was removed from it. As such he has no claims to the group or the wiki page for it. Being the sole editor of a page doesn't indicate ownership. It's common practice for groups to appoint a single member as the Wiki editor because it is a time consuming task and requires one to develop specialized skills. It doesn't indicate that one is a leader, nor does it indicate someone is the page's owner. It simply means that they were tasked with keeping the page up to date. Something that Annabell, myself, and/or Misanthropy are more than capable of doing ourselves.

As some of the information is in threads deemed sensitive in nature, if Karek would sign up to the forums he will be given temporary Cobra access so that he can see the linked threads. After which he will be bumped down to Diplomat. -- Goribus 02:09, 23 June 2011 (BST)

And for what we intend to do with the page? For starters we're going to do this or possibly this with the updated information found in the first link. Yeah, that's it. We're going to change information on the page to reflect the new roster, the new leader will be listed as The Commander (as agreed to by our faction), we'll probably be prettying it up a bit after but for now just the facts to represent our group. Annabell has definate plans for the wikipage though. She just never was allowed to edit it long enough to get it there before Spiderzed's faction reverted it and the current Arbitration was made necessary.

The other stuff? We're probably going to rewrite everything to reflect the older pages. Annabell isn't the type of person who would copy pasta something Spiderzed typed up, so his guide can go on the page of whatever he renames his group to. We don't want it, and it's his so I see no reason why he can't have it. I believe that would be both fair and reasonable. We're here to put our twist on it as how we feel Cobra should be represented here on the wiki. After all, the wiki serves to advertise the group to potential new members just as well as forum ads or in game deeds do. -- Goribus 12:08, 23 June 2011 (BST)

Rebuttals to random observations
  • When Doc Ryleigh passed the leadership to Sage Carr and later even left the group, why did she hang on the root admin account? For a leader who cares more about the good of the group and less about personal gain, it sure would have been best practice to entrust such vital data to the actual leader Sage Carr, rather than to keep them up your sleeve?
Your ignorance of Cobra is disheartening. Annabell did give Sage the Root Admin account. He simply didn't change the password to it and then vanished. And perhaps if he had expected to leave he would have named someone as official leader, but he didn't so the Root Admin wasn't passed. Which is yet another example of why I keep stating that you were a temporary transitional leader. It's nothing personal, but the facts speak for themselves I'm afraid.
  • Doc Ryleigh was for a long time able to read up on internal debates using the root admin account after having officially left the group, without telling anyone else about it. To my knowledge, forum spying is heavily frowned upon in the metagame. Would it be in the best interest of the UD community and of the wiki as official information source to reward such behaviour by granting editing rights based on it?
What's your point? Annabell was technically still a Cobra as if anything she was retired. Would Beehive Head be spying on his own group if he decided to check up on you with the Root Admin account? Would Psychotic Pantomime have been spying if she used her admin access to check up on the Legends of Darkness while I was leading it for her? The answer to both is, of course, no.
  • Also note that this wasn't an isolated instance of Doc Ryleigh showing a loose stance on the commonly accepted community standards. Why did it take full 5 months between Elissavet's zerg listing and her replacement? Especially as another group that both were members of, the Feral Undead, already dealt with Elissavet one month after the listing. Sure that would have been the latest point where they would have become aware of that problem and dealt with it appropriately?
The Feral Undead =/= Cobra. While there is a large membership overlap they are not the same group. Nor did they even have the same leadership at the time of the Sister's zerg listing. Also of interest is the fact that she was listed and delisted in the same update. I'm not exactly sure when the Sister stepped down officially. That was when she left the group. The next leader in line was Annabell. As extensive as my timeline is, I'm not privy to every single matter that transpired. However, I was around for it and I'll say that the reason the Sister wasn't kicked out of the group is the simple fact that we were all friends and that while she made a mistake she did correct it and never let it happen again. While I can't be exactly certain she was either asked to leave or decided to leave on her own as that thread shows.
Here's a tough question for you Spiderzed: Pick at random any one of your friends that are in Cobra. Now hypothetically one of them gets themselves zerg listed. Just about how awkward is the situation for you? And how uncomfortable are you going to be when it comes time to talk about what to do about this friend. You're probably going to have to kick them out and ask them to leave despite being friends for awhile and they're probably going to hold a grudge about it for awhile. Yeah, it's not so easy when you put yourself into the same situation is it?
  • How was it possible that bounty hunters were able to receive and respond in timely manner to the mass PM, while actual members, who by their own claim care strongly about the group, couldn't? As active members, they sure must have exchanged PMs before and noticed if e-mail notification is turned off?
Maybe it's because of the way this is phrased, but I honestly don't even know what you're asking here. Are you asking about our faction's killing you in the ambush? Well personally I didn't log into the forum because I didn't want to hear whining and accusations of forum spying while we were hunting you down. You want to know why the trophy lounge got moved? It's exactly how I was able to track you down to Lockettside. If you're wondering how we communicated? I'm friends with Annabell, Misanthropy, and a great deal of the people on our side and that support us. We talk pretty regularly either on facebook or MSN. Just like you and your crew hang out on irc for both business and idle chit chat. I'm sure this isn't a surprise to you though. - Goribus 19:44, 27 June 2011 (BST)


So first off it seems fairly clear which group is which here. The problem that I keep running into though is that both groups do, in fact, exist. The reason this is an issue is that the wiki is a reflection of the reality of the game not the other way around.

As a wiki that, by design, does not have a wikipedia:WP:NOTABILITY guideline we don't delete simply based on size of a group or, even, history. As of this point in time both Cobra's are distinct, unique, and separate groups. The issue of the wiki page has more to do with the combined history claimed by both groups. You both acknowledge that up until Sage Carr stepped down the group was running as it should, and even that the groups history is unified until the recent coup from Annabell.

In light of all of this it seems clear to me that the only practical solution isn't the solution either group wants. It's the sealing of the Cobra page as a former group + disambiguation page in NPOV. The practical solution is my ruling in this case.

Cobra the page itself will go Neutral. Both groups pages and subpages will be removed to Cobra(proboards) and Cobra(cobrakills). The point of that is to make each groups' wiki presence clear, the parenthetical isn't limiting and can be changed to better reflect the reality of the group.

The original Cobra page will contain a note at the top that there are currently two groups with the name Cobra in the game. That they both derived from Cobra the group founded by Bullgod and that this page contains information about the group dating up to the split. It will also contain the links to the other two Cobra pages in the standard contented disambiguation page style.

The content of the main Cobra page or the new group pages are not restrictive. Cobra need not remain in the state of a group page and in the case of a disagreement on what version will be left should be made into a timeline of the unified Cobra group. A neutral article about it up to and including a neutral description of the split between the groups. Should you both agree that an homage to the former unified group is more important it can be left, essentially, as a defunct group page aside from the requirements in the above paragraphs.

Any complaints or comments can be taken here or here. --Karekmaps 2.0?! 20:04, 1 July 2011 (BST)

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