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Administration » Misconduct » Archive » Nubis » 2008

December, 16

This case is being brought at the insistence of Nubis himself, we're always being told by the sysops to use talk pages before admin pages, but apparently that doesn't apply to them.

Back when I returned to this wiki I noticed an act of de-escalation that was done incorrectly. Unsure of whether this could be considered vandalism or misconduct, I asked Nubis. He agreed with my original leanings that it was probably misconduct.

Then there was a whole succession of sysop posts on that page over Katthew being de-escalated when there were no records to prove or disprove her contributions. I pointed out that even if it could be proven with a complete edit history that a user had not been correctly de-escalated they would still probably not vote misconduct if the case was brought. In his next edit Nubis ended all further discussion and demanded this be taken to misconduct.

Let us now look at the criteria for de-escalations so that we are all familiar with them. The Administrations Guidelines (a policy document) gives the criteria as: "To encourage users to reform and become good contributors to this Wiki, a single vandal escalation can be struck out for every 250 good-faith edits the warned user makes, provided that one month has passed, since the user's last infraction, with another month for every subsequent striking after the first in the series, restarting in the event of a vandal escalation." Now we have the two criteria for a successful de-escalation, namely:

  1. One month must have passed since the edit that was ruled vandalism
  2. 250 good faith edits must have been made

Note: that under Vandalism guidelines "good faith" is taken to mean any edit that contributes to the wiki, any edit that is not "bad faith" and therefore vandalism.

Now for some reason on Nubis' talk page, all the sysops (that's our trusted users who are supposed to know and enact the policies we as a community have voted on) could only see a problem with Katthew's de-escalation, even when there was a case with a clear edit history that had been incorrectly de-escalated. They must have just been having brain tumours for breakfast that week....

The de-escalation in question was mine. Although a month had passed, I had not made 250 good faith edits by this point. This is clearly in breach of the policy as I have outlined above.

Now we must determine if indeed it is misconduct. A check of the top of the page gives the check of administrative actions, ones that if abused can be considered misconduct. Clearly on that list is "Editing of Protected pages by any means." Vandal Data is a protected page, and was at the time of Nubis' edit. The case is clearly concerning an administrative action and is therefore subject to misconduct proceedings.

Although mentioned nowhere in policy or guidelines, including the example case above, faith of these edits has been looked at in recent times (the cynical of us stating in hushed whispers that this is a means of self preservation for certain sysops to do this to set precedence in all cases), now we will look at the two possible motives.

1. Incompetence The first motive is incompetence, Nubis made the edits without fully completing his duties as a sysop. As all sysops are expected and required by the guidelines to ensure that a de-escalation is valid before striking the warning, this makes Nubis' edit misconduct if this is taken to be his reasoning.

2. Intentional Intentional? But how can a sysop intentionally subvert the community consensus in the course of his/her duties? There is a small line in the Administration Guidelines policy document that was placed there to protect sysops acting against unforeseen situations in a manner consistent with the protection of the community consensus. This line reads, "System operators, as trusted users of the wiki, are given the right to make judgment calls and use their best discretion on a case-by-case basis. Should the exact wording of the policies run contrary to a system operators' best good-faith judgment and/or the spirit of the policies, the exact wording may be ignored." Unfortunately in recent times this has been used by sysops attempting to moderate this wiki as a blanket authority to act any way they want. Accordingly, we must take it into account. In order to make a judgment (sic) call", a user must be conscious of his decision. Therefore if Nubis acted in accordance with the first motive I have presented then he cannot claim this as a defence. Going further into this line we find contrary to a system operators' best good-faith judgment (sic) and/or the spirit of the policies. The spirit of the policy in this case is clear, to rehabilitate a user who's edits have been considered vandalism by the wiki, as I was not editing the wiki at the time, and had not been for weeks, Nubis cannot show that this spirit of the policy needed to be ignored, I was not in danger of receiving another escalation due to making no edits, so his action could not have been done to protect me from an unwarranted ban. This leaves us with the final possible out for his actions, contrary to a system operators' best good-faith judgment (sic), in order to use this, and thus hide behind this clause, Nubis must demonstrate that he used his best judgement in good faith for his actions. Nubis must therefore answer the following question to the satisfaction of the community: How is it an act of good faith to this wiki community to ignore a policy and de-escalate early a user with the history of Iscariot?

In my opinion it is not possible for him to answer this question sufficiently to satisfy the act of arbitrarily overriding the policy of this community.

Going on the traditional punishments found in the misconduct archives, Nubis has committed misconduct by abusing his abilities and de-escalating a user incorrectly, either through ignorance or intentional subversion of the community. He should therefore receive his next escalation.

-- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 16:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

You == Asshole. And that will be my entire contribution to this case. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 17:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Just a tad too much time on your hands. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 17:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ! 2. You are clearly a prolific poster on the wiki. It had been over a month and there was no doubt (although a hope) that you would suddenly go inactive. I was rather confident that you would get the 250 edits (as at that time I loaded 250 edits and the oldest ones were from the day of your warning.) 3. I even admitted "the only de-escalation that was really on the cusp was probably yours. " because you see, unlike you, when I don't like someone I don't seek out ways to "get them". 4. And, How is it an act of good faith to this wiki community to ignore a policy and de-escalate early a user with the history of Iscariot? What history? Someone that runs the recruiting page? Someone that is the patron Saint of Dupes and actually reasonably defends the (few) good points in suggestions? Someone that even though he has a stick up his ass about the stupidest fucking things is still making good edits (alongside the snarky foul ones)? Because to me that's your history. I don't care if I don't personally like you, you contribute a shit load to this wiki and to "harass" you or hound you looking for things to take to VB would asinine. I think you are the biggest fucking douchebag on here, but if you need something moved, deleted, or fixed I'd do it for you because through your contributions you have earned that respect. (then I'd report right here to Misconduct because you hate me). Also, it was just a warning. It's not like I could have left it and then found something to ban you over. Either way that warning was going away and wouldn't matter. --– Nubis NWO 18:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

  1. I don't 'run' the Recruitment page, 'run' implies power, or at least backing from sysops, I have neither.
  2. I do not defend any suggestion, your accusation is libellous.
  3. I have 'the respect' for you to move things? That's odd, I remember differently....
  4. It is my assertation that you did not intentionally ignore the policy for those reasons listed above, otherwise you'd have mentioned it clearly when I originally asked on your talk page. You cannot go against policy using your judgement, and it is my opinion that you were ignorant of my edits and therefore cannot use this as your defence. Even now you prove incapable of admitting your error and accepting your escalation for misconduct, further damaging the community trust in the sysop team. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
  1. However, as one of the two maintainers of the Recruitment page (the other having recently left the wiki) suggests that you "run" this page.
  2. Sometimes you actually contribute.
  3. You wanted a template moved out of template space. No one else did it either.
  4. When you asked on my talk page? You mean your cryptic comment that even had boxy (Why don't you just spit it out, Iscariot? Which one was clearly incorrect? -- boxy 12:50 13 December 2008 (BST)) confused. You post the first comment on Dec. 8th then come back on Dec. 13th threatening a misconduct case. And even then it wasn't until this was posted that any of us (well, certainly not me) had any idea that you were indeed referring to yourself.
  5. And the only reason I would even consider deescalating someone Misconduct is because it involves editing a protected page. The guidelines even say Also, it is expected that a system operator be prepared to reverse a warning/ban should the community desire it. I really fail to see how being nice to someone that obviously hates me is "damaging the community trust in the sysop team." --– Nubis NWO 18:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Misconductification* Nubis should have never deescalated an ass such as yourself.
* Actually Not Misconduct for all the various reasons that Nubis listed above. Conndrakamod TAZM CFT 22:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Can I misconduct you for posting annoying double rulings all the time? -- Cheese 22:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Short version: Nubis de-descalated Iscariot's warning prematurely at 243 edits, instead of 250. --ZsL 00:53, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so is 7 edits enough to be misconduct? What is your ruling? --– Nubis NWO 10:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, it technically is misconduct, but it's so minor that you should just get a slap on the wrist. *smack* --ZsL 11:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and remember to check edits before de-escalating, Nubis. --ZsL 23:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess this case raises a big question...should sysops merely follow the exactly word of the law or should they take some sort of personality. Coz like usually i think sysops are fuckers but srsly this shouldn't be bad. I'm gonna say misconduct but lyk i don't want any shit to happen to ma man nubis. Coz he's a good guy. And he meant well. Can we plz recall sysops mods, coz then i wouldn't have a problem with this sort of shit going down. You guys wanted it to be sysops but srsly fuck that shit, we're mods and thats fine. Just accept it...... Love xoxo 03:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Misconduct - For Nubis' reason #1. Also, I don't really know why this would be considered something worth punishing unless it was some ridiculous distance from reaching the required, unless I'm missing something you've now exceeded the limit that leads to this case. However, Nubis says it's misconduct I guess I have to agree with the guy.--Karekmaps?! 04:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Reason no. 1 was my actual response when I realized he was talking about himself yet let us all discuss Katthew. I bet he was sitting there going Mwhahaha, those fools don't even suspect my real case! and twirling his mustache like some cartoon fiend. And I was only off by 7 edits? Impressive. I would say let this case be a warning to all the sysops, but Iscariot seems to have a hard on for me. --– Nubis NWO 10:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Do you write your own material? Or do you just steal it from me? -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:23, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I would really hate to think you did this just to your drama template. When you read the summary it doesn't look good for you.--– Nubis NWO 10:30, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
shouldn't you wait til boxy rules before making your decision?xoxo 04:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't you be trying not to give us reasons to suspect Nallan is on the J3D account? Maybe not say stupid shit that shows you can't actually look through wiki histories like you should already be doing as a sysop, or sign with his name?--Karekmaps?! 04:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
quite frankly i'd be glad if you thought nick and jed were the same account. I mean it's so apparent we aren't. If you suspected us i'd be all like "lol what a douche he thinks we're the same person" coz like, who the fuck could be bothered acting like different people for 2 yearss??? that shits stupid....xoxo 05:07, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
  1. 03:46, December 17, 2008 J3D got IPs for Nallan on ud_wiki
  2. 03:45, December 17, 2008 J3D got IPs for J3D on ud_wiki
  3. 03:45, December 17, 2008 J3D got IPs for Boxy on ud_wiki
Interesting. Did boxy give you permission to check his IP? Was he vandalizing or suspected of account sharing/sock puppets? Why would you need to get IP information on yourself and Nallan? --– Nubis NWO 23:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Just a sneaking suspicion i had about those 3...--xoxo 23:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Trying to find out where I live again, eh J3D? I hope you're not planning on sharing the big info with your buds -- boxy talkteh rulz 00:44 18 December 2008 (BST)
I wish i was that internet capable...--xoxo 04:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
If you already checked his you'd know that they probably already checked it themselves with his sysop privileges.--Karekmaps?! 10:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Proof plz. I'm the only person who knows the password to this account.--xoxo 00:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Check User from the 14th lends itself to a different conclusion.--Karekmaps?! 01:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't check that one. Interesting. So the J3D account and the Nallan account are used from the same computer at times. I see two options of what went on on December 17;
  1. either Nallan logged in as J3D and used the sysop tools to look up the IP details listed above and make inane posts on multiple admin pages;
  2. or J3D looked up the IP details above, and noticing that Nallan was showing up as using the same IP he went about making damned sure that I checked it out in the hope of creating a dramafest by checking my IP details, and making posts on A/PT and signing as Nallan.
I'm inclined to go for option 2, because he even went to the trouble of IP checking a non existent user, presumably refering to this post of Nallans] which looks very much like something a friend would do if they managed to log in to the accoun ("I'm feeling niggardly LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL (nigger)"). Worst case senario, other kids have access to J3Ds account, best case, J3D is using his checkuser abilities to stir up drama because he's bored with it already -- boxy talkteh rulz 07:21 19 December 2008 (BST)
This seems like something Kevan would be interested in. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 07:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
WOW!! You guys have really fucking overactive imaginations! I couldn't think up such a tale of intrique if you paid me! Anyway as well as being astounded i should probably offer up an option number 3. Nallan and I are real life friends, you should all be aware of this, we don't hide it. As real life friends we visit each other at home (each other's IP addresses) and thus on occasion edit from one anothers IPs. I'm fairly certain this is well within the bounds of the guidelines. Now you sure fucking don't have to believe me, but i don't really care either way, this is simply if you're interested - No one edits off my account except me. I can't guarentee you no one edits off Nallan's account except him but i sure haven't. Anyway that is pretty much the story. I love it how the option with the most simple explanation is the one you all fail on.--xoxo 04:03, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
lol this shit made my day. Kevan must be alerted! fucking gold.--Nallan (Talk) 04:52, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
You do realise that that explaination is basically the same as option 2, except it neglects to explain why you felt it neccessary to look up my IP details, the IP details of a non existent user and act like a prat on multiple admin pages -- boxy talkteh rulz 22:39 20 December 2008 (BST)
Obviously you've never heard of miagate and don't know how to check and figure out why it would be a question in the first place.--Karekmaps?! 05:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
ROFLMAOPMP@MIAGATE --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 11:07, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
What was Miagate? =/ And Misconduct. Barely. Give him a finger tap on the wrist, that should make up for it. -- Cheese 11:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Miagate involved a case of multiple personality disorder which Karek seems to think was faked. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 12:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
finger, yeah.--xoxo 15:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Misconduct because giving Iscariot the benefit of the doubt shakes any trust I had in Nubis's judgement! Seriously though this whole case is actually the first I have ever seen that should be counted as vandalism, there is no possible way it can be regarded as good faith. --Honestmistake 12:18, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

You just nearly gave me a heart attack. I thought for a second that you had been promoted. Thankfully you haven't been, so ruling in the same fashion as a sysop is vandalism. See you on A/VB! --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 12:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
I won't rule on the VB case but this something people have been bitchslapped for in the past. Don't do it.--– Nubis NWO 13:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to rule, I won't hold it against you either way... Its not like you can really ban me for a first offense ;) --Honestmistake 18:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Not misconduct - well within the spirit of the policy -- boxy talkteh rulz 00:40 18 December 2008 (BST)

Did you miss the section where I demonstrated that Nubis could not act within the spirit of the policy, or do you just disagree with me? -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Going against myself for the second time in this case (if you count my lol' as a contribution), i agree. Not Misconduct --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 04:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
"You == Asshole. And that will be my entire contribution to this case. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 17:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)" - Lying cunt. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I dunno if I am going to get in shit for commenting on this case. Oh well... here goes, anyway. It's pretty clear tom me that this is technically and by-the-letter-of-the-book a misconduct. However, following the spirit of the book, it's probably not misconduct -- because the policies clearly state that the rules aren't cut-and-dry, as long as sysops are acting in good faith and the best interests of the wiki, it's acceptable. It's clear Nubis wasn't acting in bad faith here. But it's pretty borderline, either way, IMO. Because... just follow the fucking rules, already... don't deescalate before a deescalation is due... otherwise, you're looking for trouble. Simple enough, no? --WanYao 04:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

All talk regarding a misconduct page belongs on the main page, you cannot be escalated for commenting. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Yeah you can.--xoxo 03:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
You'll notice he wasn't escalated for that case. I know you're a sysop now J3D, but try to retain at least two braincells. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 03:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
True, he was banned though. And Cheese was declared not misconduct in the subsequent case which basically states that it was felt banning him was the correct decision.--xoxo 04:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Wan, it was off by 7 edits. SEVEN. I don't believe we should make users beg for a deescalation. If we really want to use it as a means of reform (not punishment) we should be on top of it. This is no different than giving someone a break on vandalism because you know they meant well but screwed up. Which we do all the time. I think part of the reason we go easy on vandalism cases is because we don't want to deal with deescalation. IMO, the 250 edits is a retarded amount for a person with just one warning when you look at the VB page and see what people get reported and warned for. So giving someone that actually contributes to the wiki the benefit of the doubt in a deescalation and not just in a VB case is the right thing to do to encourage them to be good contributors. --– Nubis NWO 17:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Awww, poor baby, is dealing with de-escalations too much for you? Luckily for you, I know somewhere you can go and make all the pain go away. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
This 250 edit limit was established when there were more active users in the wiki, like 10x what we currently have. In that day, 250 edits were just easy to get, and warnings would've been struck soon after the month end it was issued. I'd rather change that value lower now, atleast to remove the first warning a user ever receives. Anyway, punishing you for removing a user's warning 7 edits early is laughable, and i pity anyone voting misconduct in this case. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 18:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Of course you pity them, you'd be much happier with the power to make shit up and mod the wiki as you see fit. Still contibuting to the case I see.... -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
250 edits is still stupid easy to get. Suggestions, Developing Suggestions, Categories, Locations updates, comments on user pages, subspace projects, wiki projects, general maintenance tasks. I wouldn't be surprised if I could easily get 250 legitimate edits in less than a day if I tried.--Karekmaps?! 00:51, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Right now this case sums on 3 rulings of not misconduct and 3 rulings of misconduct without punishment. This thrend is not going to change a bit, so let's simply call this over an carry on with our lives. Slightly Misconduct - bad bad nubis, no donuts for you. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 01:23, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Now I know you can't use commas, but I thought you could fucking count. The vote stands at 4 Misconduct compared to 3 Not Misconduct, that's Conndraka, Boxy and You (even though you said you were only going to make one contribution, liar) on the side of ignorance and ZS, Karek, J3D and Cheese on the side of righteousness. Perhaps we should have basic numeracy included as a condition of continued promotion? -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 01:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This case made my day. :) --Jen 21:41, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

2008, November 8

This edit.

Nubis votes 'Not Misconduct' on his own misconduct case. Clear conflict of interest. Misconduct as per precedent established in this case concerning sysops voting on similar cases to stealth rule, this isn't even stealthy.

To quote Nubis himself from the precedent establishing case:

Just the fact that he is trying to vote on his own case shows that he clearly does not understand the concepts of "conflict of interest", "impartiality", and "DON'T ABUSE YOUR FUCKING AUTHORITY YOU ARE GIVING EVERY SYSOP A BAD REP.".

That says everything in my opinion. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 21:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I was waiting for this. Interesting that you are trying to say my comment is some sort of policy or precedent when I am saying something you "agree" with but when I say something you don't agree with I am making all sysops untrusted users. Since no one (including yourself) tried to introduce policy to state one way or the other whether or not sysops can vote on their own case it must not bother anyone since they know if it is misconduct the sysop will be outvoted.--– Nubis NWO 22:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Not misconduct - nubis can say whatever he wants in his case. Unless the rest of the sysop agrees with his ruling (through inaction or verbal agreement) his words means nothing. And any sysop with half a mind will know not to count his ruling in the event of vote. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 21:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Not Misconduct - Please refrain from reporting cases which are petty because you don't like a user or group of users. Paranoia has it's point but some of this stuff exceeds that by miles.--Karekmaps?! 21:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Not Misconduct - As above. -- Cheese 21:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Iscariot, are you really this fucking retarded that you have to report everything as misconduct? I've sat by and watched your shit and put it down as simple stupidity. In all honesty, every time you edit the wiki you ruin it that much more. For the love of all things intelligent, please kill yourself. I'm being totally serious here. You have no way to redeem yourself. You only have the ability to make yourself and everything around you worse. So grab a handful of razor blades and begin swallowing them. God fucking damn it, I hate you and your mother for not aborting you. --Sonny Corleone DORIS MSD pr0n 21:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Now now, lay off him. He's just on a self-destructive path letting the petty frustrations of the wiki get to him. He needs to decide if he really wants to be known as the pedantic asshole that cries foul constantly or the useful contributor to developing suggestions that people actually can respect. I personally hope he goes back to DS since no one found dupes and pointed out flaws like he did because of all his experience. (and for the most part he was the least trolly) But he seems dead set on making himself miserable raging against the machine. --– Nubis NWO 22:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Oh Sonny, everytime you open your mouth, I am astounded at the beauty of your wisdom-filled words. However, I like it when Iscariot threatens to 'misconduct' (he uses the word as if the very accusation is the punishment itself) sysops for anything they do which he doesn't like. It just shows how irrational and useless he is. DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 04:25, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

NOT MISCONDUCT For the love of all thats holy... I dub thee St. Crucifix. Conndrakamod TAZM CFT 02:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Not Misconduct - Case Closed--The General T Sys U! P! F! 12:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

2008, November 7

Deleted a bunch of pages (unused templates) without first putting them on A/SD, which is required even for sysops. This time he didn't even record them on A/SD. None of these pages qualified as scheduled deletions. --Midianian Big Brother Diary Room: [516,07] 16:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Not Misconduct - i am in your unused templates, deleting them. Feh. I fully approve nubis actions, and welcome a move for a wiki with less red tape on the hands of the sysop team. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 17:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
You know what? So would I, if it were done with the community's consent and not as a unilateral decision. --Midianian Big Brother Diary Room: [521,07] 21:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Conndraka has recorded the pages in question on A/SD. --Midianian Big Brother Diary Room: [521,07] 21:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

It's interesting now that Grim is gone and this group of sysops doesn't stalk users, but instead "cleans up" the wiki that the misconduct cases are all about red tape bullshit. It's not even about something that is serious like banning people or warning them unjustly. It's just about posting something on a page. But I didn't and yet somehow you knew that those actions were committed and by whom. Hmmmmm.

I'm cleaning up the wiki for christ's sake. None of these pages were in use. None of these pages were less than 2 months old. None of these pages were even useful. They were shitty templates made on some half assed impulse. The last time they were touched was by me (in almost every case) to add a category and sometimes instructions. They are clearly crit 10s on SD and if any of them were posted on Undeletions it would be restored.

No one ever gave me a good answer for why things that meet an SD criteria can't be deleted "speedily" by the sysop that found it. Boxy's answer of posting it "even if it's just for a minute" doesn't work because the same actions would take place if it wasn't posted. It is either deleted or undeleted. Not Misconduct just trying to do some actual work around here. --– Nubis NWO 17:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

We don't have to give you a "good reason", we give you policy, that you are supposed to conform to. Also isn't voting on your own misconduct case misconduct in itself? -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 18:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
What about my reason that without it being added to the A/SD page, no one even knows they've been done, unless they see them on RC. None of the other sysops can check to ensure that they really are crap templates, and not just templates that someone uses to subst into a page, or are used occasionally. You've made mistakes before in scheduled deleting stuff that others would have left before, and if you keep doing this, others will follow suit, and will make more mistakes that the community needs to be able to see happen on A/SD.
You are willfully ignoring the rules in order to try to change policy, fully supported by Hagnat, of course -- boxy talkteh rulz 21:44 7 November 2008 (BST)
Yes we can, it's a matter of click "View deleted revisions".--The General T Sys U! P! F! 15:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes we can, obviously... but only if we know they've been deleted. Unless they're recorded on A/SD, the only way to know about these deletions is for us to stalk the deletions log. And who's got time for that? -- boxy talkteh rulz 22:22 8 November 2008 (BST)
I do. --  AHLGTG 22:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Misconduct - You didn't even add the deletions to A/SD. I'm not one to be a rules freak but this is getting ridiculous. Either you make a suggestion on A/D/S or you suggest policy change. The reason why sysops must use A/SD in the first place, even when processing their own requests is to reduce the amount of mistakes and for an easy way to track deletions made. Sometimes you need a second opinion. --  AHLGTG 18:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I think if you want to get this case beyond a feeling of a generally petty case(although I don't know your reasons it just feels petty) you might need to show a reasonable dispute(usage, intent, purpose, etc.) to any of the deletions, in which case they will be undeleted immediately and I, for one, would be glad to vote misconduct. Right now though, I'm just not seeing it. --Karekmaps?! 18:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't have a specific objection to any of the individual templates being deleted. You know why? Because I have absolutely no idea what-so-ever as to what they contained. Neither does any other regular user unless the were familiar with them beforehand. We don't have that nice link at the top when looking at a deleted page that shows the page as it was.
SD criteria do not mean something should be deleted directly. They mean that something may be deleted if no one objects. Directly deleting the pages removes the users' chance to do that. If Nubis wants to delete unused templates on sight, he should consult the community on it. The templates aren't going to go anywhere meanwhile. If the community agrees, he can go trigger-happy on them, but until then, he's going to land himself here.
And why should I even have a personal stake at any of the deletions? If I see someone breaking the rules who has full knowledge that he's doing so, of course I report them. Regardless of whether they're a regular vandal or a sysop. Regardless of whether I'm directly involved or not. --Midianian Big Brother Diary Room: [523,07] 23:25, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
And that is different from posting an SD how? I could band together with Nubis, he could nominate a bunch of articles and I could delete them immediately; same result, just more work. If you want to know what was contained in the article, just drop one of the sysops a line and we can give you the content of a page.--The General T Sys U! P! F! 14:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. Misconduct - there was content which means review of purpose isn't possible after the fact.--Karekmaps?! 21:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Another case which is almost a carbon copy of the example case and yet again sysops are ruling it not misconduct because it is petty??? Change the rules or at least change the damn example... or better yet stop breaking the rules. I mean for hells sake how hard is it to keep a record of your actions?--Honestmistake 12:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to say it. Stop it, you're just making my point for me with you're get the sysops attitude. It's not worth fighting for unless it's worth fighting for and unlike Midianian you've obviously decided it's not worth putting any effort beyond accusing abuse for the sake of railing against the man. You contribution is very unwelcomed.--Karekmaps?! 21:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Luckily enough though Karek it doesn't matter if you do not welcome my contribution. I do not have a "get the sysop" complex and I do not think that these deletions are a serious issue, what I do see as an issue is the lack of consistency in this page. A clear case is made which is obviously misconduct but nothing beyond an acceptence that it is against the rules is done... a few days later the same sysop is here again for the same thing. It really does not matter if the issue is petty, it is against the rules and against them for good reason. If any sysop does not like that he can ask for the rule to be changed and if the rest of the community agree he can change the rules and continue doing it his way. If not he/she is misusing sysop powers to do something that is specifically against the will of the community and that warrants more than a slap on the wrist. You yourself have come to the conclusion that this is misconduct so how am I wrong to ask for clear and meaningful consequences to be attached to clear and meaningful misconduct? I am not clamoring for dismissal from the role and i doubt if the content he deleted was of earthshattering importance (or would even have been noticed if Midinian hadn't reported it) In fact its removal will free up almost as much space as these cases are taking which is obviously a valuable service... maybe we should reward him for not following the very simple procedure! --Honestmistake 17:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Then please, what purpose did you comment serve than venting some angry opinion? You added nothing beyond complaining that I said the case feels petty in the process of asking for more from Midianian, which he provided. If your concern is making sure there is some punishment then leave the other junk out of it and work towards that.--Karekmaps?! 19:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Firstly my comment wasn't aimed specifically at you... if anything it was motivated more my Hagnats "Meh" Secondly; Angry opinion from anyone in the community at a percieved bias in the sysop team should be taken seriously, my comment spelled out very clearly what i wanted to happen in this case and what should have happened in the previous one too. There are good reasons why the current system exists, drawing up a list of exceptions to the rule might very well include these specific deletions but it would do so at the expense of simplicity and clarity. By all means streamline the system but do not circumvent the rules and complain when you get pulled on it!--Honestmistake 11:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
No, Honest. Angry opinion from anyone in the community at a perceived bias in the sysop team should not be taken seriously; there are certain individuals who make it their business to stick their noses into every goddamn case on every goddamn page where there is even a hint of subjectivity just so they can jam their fingers in their ears and shout at the tops of their voices whatever position is in opposition to the one taken by the ruling sysop(s). Logic is conspicuously absent the vast majority of the time, but these certain individuals don't give a toss; they figure if they rant loudly enough and often enough they have to win sometime, right? Well, no. Their continuous antics give them something of a pariah-like status; whenever they make a comment on a case people have learnt to either simply ignore them or laugh at them. Often it doesn't matter whether they're right or not, so my advice to these certain individuals would be to exercise a little more thought before diving in head-first if they want to ever be taken seriously.
Anyway, these certain individuals should not be taken seriously whenever they present angry opinion at a perceived bias in the sysop team; at least not unless they are able to curb their more sensationalistic tendencies (unlikely in most cases) or are supported by users generally thought to be more conservative in giving their opinion. By which I mean they know when to shut the fuck up. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 13:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if that was aimed at me or not really Bob... given that i am not actually at odds with the majority of sysops on whether this is misconduct i will assume not. To an extent though you do have a point... there are some people who get involved in these things to cause drama... dismissing their points because of that just lowers others to their level though, as such i prefer to read the situation and make my own mind up as to whether they are making a valid point.--Honestmistake 17:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Misconduct - The red tape is there for a reason. If you want to cut it permanently, we have established processes for that. Either get it scheduled, take it to policy discussion or just follow the rules. It's not the first time you've done it either. -- Cheese 14:43, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Why nobody complained when Nubis deleted zounds of unused images ? Fact is: why people are more willing to keep the status quo of having to report pages a sysop can delete, when they agree with the current deletion schedule of unused images ? Images CAN NOT be undeleted, while templates can. If someone is substing the template its even easier for a user to rebuild the template, but for a image to be restored only if someone have it on their computer. Several images got deleted, but they were linked. Its stupid to request a sysop to report his deletion actions of PAGES, since anyone unhappy with its decision can ask it to be undeleted. Its even stupier NOT TO request a sysop for permission to remove an image, since they can't be restored. Nubis just did his job. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 21:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Because they were scheduled, while unused templates are not? --  AHLGTG 22:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Thats... my whole... fricking... POINT! If unused images can be deleted on sight - whose deletion is permenent - why cant unusued templates also be deleted on sight, specially when they can be easily restored (even by normal users in some cases). This is just a stupid law, which you guys are not accepting to change --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 22:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Templates that appear to be unused are sometimes used in subst form. Also, read Midianian below. --  AHLGTG 22:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
And so do images: images can be linked somewhere else, and the wiki will list them as unusued images unless they are displayed. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 22:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Those shouldn't be deleted. --  AHLGTG 22:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Yet, so they incidentally are. This sums all. If people is ok about deleting unused images (even with the know risk of deleting images linked somewhere else), why shouldn't we be able to deleted unused templates ? Irs useless red tape --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 22:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Images take lots of space. Deleting unused images frees that space while deleting unused templates only makes them inaccesible. There's little point in deleting templates unless their content is objectionable. --Midianian Big Brother Diary Room: [522,08] 22:36, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
A image is a worht a thousand words and Disk space == cheap ? Many images hold part of this wiki history. I have some of 'em in my image ark (i'm to lazy to dig the link), but deleting some unused images will mean part of this wiki history is being hurt. For one thing, IMAGES should be the ones which should be gone through A/D, not unused templates. They can be reverted, images not. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 22:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
You're not really making a case why templates should be deleted, you're just pointing out that deleting images shouldn't be done with such little scrutiny. If you're worried about them, make a policy proposal to change that, but don't try to get the templates deleted just as casually as images. --Midianian Big Brother Diary Room: [523,08] 23:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Unused Image Deletion
  1. it's a scheduled deletion: an sysop can delete a image listed in the unused images list
  2. it's permanent: can only be reverted if a user had the filed deleted and uploads it back to the wiki
  3. it's prone to error: images can be listed as unused even if linked somewhere else in the wiki
  4. they occupy large space on the wiki: disk space == cheap, and it's not like the wiki will fall short of disk space while they wait to be normally deleted if they are reported in A/SD or other pages.
Unused Templates Deletion
  1. it's not permanent: unless there is a history purge, templates can be easily undeleted
  2. people subst templates: a notice could be added to the top of such templates, notifying the sysop that the page is being used as a subst template

We trust nubis to delete images, but not templates ? This is nonsense. And Not Misconduct --People's Commissar Hagnat talk mod 23:46, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Not Misconduct on the Deleting, Misconduct on the failure to report. One could argue (and I wont do it here) that templates fall under that quasi is it a page or isn't it category...I don't beleive the example above applies. Now since I went back and recorded the deletions I don't think any punishment should be significant. Conndrakamod TAZM CFT 03:10, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

thanks to Akule I'm dropping the Misconduct altogether. It seems I forgot the exact wording of the Sysop exemption clause. Conndrakamod TAZM CFT 04:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I just want to point out that I am actually the one that went through and categorized the templates (groups, wikicentric, navigation, character related, utility and so on). I put instructions for usage on all the ones that were in the Template and User Template categories if they weren't made with them. I fixed tons of user pages that were accidentally included in Category:Template by going template by template on their page and seeing which one didn't have a <noinclude> in the right place. I even explained on A/SD why a template page that looked "empty and unused" was in fact a "coding" template and shouldn't be deleted. So, it was obvious that I'm not going to delete templates that might not be in use but would be later (like historic event voting vs. "this user likes cake").--– Nubis NWO 15:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

We all appreciate that, which is why no-one wants to misconduct you for this. However you're trying your best to set this precedent that will be followed by other sysops who arn't as familiar with the reasons that templates may show up as unused, and if they start deleting them without leaving a record (other than buried in the deletions logs), no one can check up on what's been deleted or why -- boxy talkteh rulz 09:34 11 November 2008 (BST)


3 Misconduct to 2 Not Misconduct. So the overall ruling is Misconduct. -- Cheese 21:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Further action?

Any thoughts? I personally think a warning since he knows better than to just delete stuff. I'm sure we've had this conversation before as well. -- Cheese 21:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

2008, October 27

Deleted a bunch of pages without first putting them on A/SD, which is required even for sysops. He recorded them on A/SD after he had deleted them. Unless I am mistaken, none of these pages qualified as scheduled deletions. --Midianian|T|DS|C:RCS| 14:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The same logs also show that he undeleted several of them after boxy pointed out that they had a purpose. Again without going though the appropriate pages, which (again) even sysops must use. --Midianian|T|DS|C:RCS| 23:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It amuses me that only now everyone's starting to catch on to the wide array of borderline misconduct/misconduct that has been committed on the wiki in the last few days in relation to the October 08 A/D affair, as it will henceforth be known.--xoxo 00:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No it won't. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 02:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
:( --xoxo 02:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not misconduct - Maybe a slap on the wrists, but I think that Boxy didn't start a misconduct case for a reason. And yeah, he fucked up by deleting the PQN pages, but he restored them. And it's not like he should get his powers removed because he deletes redirects avoiding bear-o-crazy, amirite.--Thari TжFedCom is BFI! 07:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

not rly, rules is rules tbh--CyberRead240 07:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
is dat y u voted keep on some of dem usar redirects despiet dem bein against teh rules? lolol --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 07:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
no, *cough*--CyberRead240 07:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
thx fer admittin ur rong by havin to resort to insutls insted of rebbutan lolol --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 07:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Your welcome :)--CyberRead240 08:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Since when are they against the rules? --Midianian|T|DS|C:RCS| 08:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Since always. Read up on SD Criterion 9. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 09:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Just because a page qualifies for SD doesn't mean the page is against the rules. --Midianian|T|DS|C:RCS| 11:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Given that the SD criteria more or less are the rules that dictate which pages are not allowed... yes, yes it does. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 11:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Those "rules" as you put it are for a page being deleted via A/SD. If the page gets a keep vote for any reason it goes to A/D where (surprise surprise) it goes through A/D rules, aka 2 weeks and majority delete votes. --xoxo 11:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
By deleting the pages himself, he's circumventing the democratic process. He's denying the users the right to vote on them. This is especially bad as it's much harder to get a page undeleted than to have it kept on Deletions, as Undeletions are purely sysop decisions. --Midianian|T|DS|C:RCS| 08:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it odd how this isn't misconduct when other sysops vote on it, yet the spirit of the process and the example at the top of the page which is identical rules it as misconduct. Odd that.... -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 10:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Misconduct is the most flawed process on the wiki by far. It should be a community vote, it's not perfect but it's better than the existing system. --xoxo 10:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't think I speak for the rest of the sysop group, but I don't think that the suffocating bureaucracy around the deletion of pages is necessary. So I'm not going to witch hunt another sysop for that. And keep in mind that just one sysop voted on this matter yet, there's still plenty time for most of the group to come and yell misconduct all over the place.--Thari TжFedCom is BFI! 10:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
This isn't the place to make policy, it's the place to enforce it. Your opinion of whether or not it should be punished should not be entering into your vote. You should be objectively considering whether or not the action taken is the incorrect conduct in regards to sysop powers. You response shows that you know you should vote misconduct yet you do not change your vote. This is exactly why sysops are no longer considered trusted users by the community at large. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 11:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. If you think there's something wrong with the policy, you shouldn't just ignore it, you should try to change it. --Midianian|T|DS|C:RCS| 11:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Change the example thing then. The example for the page is about following (arguably needless) bureaucracy to the letter. If it's about general bad faith sysopship (ala Grim perhaps?) then the page should make that clear. --xoxo 10:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
But, don't you both agree that if a user, sysop or not, does not like the rules in place on a wiki, it is a case of tough luck? If they want them to be changed, they should submit a policy for discussion and work on it from there. If I have to abide by petty rules as a user, then so does a Sysop. The rules are there to be followed, rather than ignoring them, the Sysop should be proactive, and seek change, rather than just ignoring the rules. It creates a sense of, "I am a big bad sysop and I can do whatever I want", which is something we should avoid if we want the community to work together.--CyberRead240 11:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not Misconduct And don't get me started on why Misconduct has to be insulated a little from popularity votes. Its the same reason why governmental positions in the US are self policing as well. It would allow Popular sysops to get away with murder and unpopular sysops to get sacrificed to the wiki-gods for sneezing on his own keyboard. And before you bring it up.. Grim got nailed for legitimate reasons wether you agree with them or not. Conndrakamod TAZM CFT 11:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm against popularity votes too, but i think sysop popularity votes are more problematic because there's a you scratch my back i'll scratch yours attitude. Whereas at least open community voting allows everyone to have a say and people are less biased. I mean every sysop is intrinsically going to be biased so giving them the power to vote on something like this, which is clear cut misconduct is not a good idea. I agree with you that there's no point in giving this misconduct, what's it achieve? Nothing. But that's a problem with the system, the fact is this is misconduct.--xoxo 11:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Grims misconduct case was nothing more or less than a witch hunt - led by you Conndraka. The punishment didn't really fit the crime. It was an awful attempt for the rest of the sysop team to get rid of a dissenter. Now, I'll admit Grim had his failings, but he was a good mod here. As for this case, I believe it is misconduct.--Drawde Talk To Me! DORIS Яed Яum Defend Ridleybonk! I know Nothing! 17:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Misconduct - of the most minor kind. If you want to delete these on sight, then a scheduled deletion vote is in order, however I would like to see them being reported on A/SD still (after the event) so that others can check without needing to regularly go through deletion logs. Without a record that shows up on watchlists, it's just too easy for things to slip through un-noticed -- boxy talkteh rulz 12:44 29 October 2008 (BST)

Boxy, I fully admit I probably cocked up in this case in the red tape department, but I have a question. If something clearly meets a speedy delete criteria then how is that different from a scheduled deletion? The criteria were written to cause the least impact - that's why defunct groups were removed.
I always took the A/SD as a way for regular users to post things that need to be deleted and since they met the criteria they should be done right away. But if things that meet the speedy crits are able to be voted on then by extension everything that is to be deleted should be voted on and that defeats the purpose of SD or scheduling. It would seem that since images are impossible to restore and pages are easily restored that pages should have a "schedule" rather than images. But we don't do that. (TBH that would be a nightmare listing all the old images for deletion)
And are we saying that pages that are created for sock puppets are somehow different than crit 11 (non-existen user pages)? Are sock puppets users, too? It seems like since they can't vote they aren't users. I'm just curious about the reasoning for keeping those kinds of pages.--– Nubis NWO 18:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
The difference is that scheduled deleteable pages should only be pages where there can be no debate about the worthlessness of a page. Unused redirects created by sysop page moves, for example. The page has been moved, all links repaired, no conceivable need to keep the redirect that was automatically created. However many of the SD criteria need to be interpreted correctly, things like duplicate pages (crit 1), off-topic (crit 2), deletion workaround (crit 6), unused template (crit 10) and missed sub-page (crit 13) all need to be evaluated on their individual merits, regardless of whether they meet the set requirements. Sometimes duplication serves a purpose, off-topic is hard to define, past deleted pages can be recreated with different content, some templates are purely "subst:" templates and some sub-pages are of value even after the main one is gone. Therefore, SD eligible pages should be placed in the queue, even if it's a sysop that discovers them, to give the community a chance (even if it's only a few minutes) to voice their concerns with a page being deleted. Scheduled deletions should be reserved for pages that have no worth whatsoever, and don't require judgment calls. That's why I was totally against "pornography" being added to the scheduled deletions list. This wiki isn't the place for pornography, and I would delete obvious examples of it on sight, as bad faith, vandalism, but it doesn't belong in scheduled deletions due to being a judgment call, and because borderline cases can be described as porn to avoid misconduct charges. I've never been happy with the scheduled deletion of images, but they take just so much space... I don't often delete them, and if I do, I try to save the best of them by putting them in an image archive. It's not perfect -- boxy talkteh rulz 15:11 1 November 2008 (BST)

I only have 1 question, and it's for Bob. Was User:A Bothan Spy your account or an account someone else set up to screw with you. That's the only one that is even an issue with the PQN undeletes and the fact that all the other pages were Non-users in the user namespace.--Karekmaps?! 17:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

It was another account set up to try and screw with me; the tool in question tried to get me VB'd for "impersonation" (as that was my sig at the time). Nobody bought it, thankfully. --HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS 00:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, then that makes my vote simple. Not Misconduct, no harm was done in the removal of the one page that could be considered at issue. The rest are non-users and this one was an impersonation account, administrative maintenance applies.--Karekmaps?! 04:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Misconduct - To the extent that it was a violation of the current (and flawed IMHO) rules. However, I don't think he deserves anything more than a clap on the wrist. 1) He was acting with the aim of improving the wiki and 2) He corrected his mistake after it was pointed out. An alteration to the deletions policy is definitely in order.....--The General T Sys U! P! F! 14:28, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


3-2 Not misconduct -- boxy talkteh rulz 10:41 6 November 2008 (BST)

27 October 2008 a

This edit.

The page was protected due to an edit war issue between two groups of users. Nubis made the aforementioned edit whilst the page was still protected. The edit was not made as part of sysop duties, it was to insert an (incorrect) opinion into the page. This allowed other users no right to reply in the same space.

Nubis therefore used his sysop abilities for a personal edit. The correct conduct would have been to place the comment on the talk page along with other users. He did not, and therefore exploited his abilities as a trusted user for his own convenience and to attempt to force the perception that his opinion was correct. This must be ruled misconduct.

Request appropriate warning. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 10:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm a sysop editing an admin page. I'm not the one that locked the page. I wasn't involved in the edit war/VB storm. Are trying to say that sysops can't post their opinions on admin pages? So, if I locked A/M and some other sysop posted on it to warn me that would be misconduct? Come on.--– Nubis NWO 12:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
As you well know, admin pages are not for idle chit chat or opinions, especially when your opinion is an attempt to enforce a baseless precedent. Quoting Admin Guidelines: "For most actions on the wiki, a moderator's word has no greater weight than any other user. As a wiki, for these actions, each user's voice has equal weight, regardless of his or her abilities." You were not performing a sysop duty in this action, you were putting forward your opinion which was unneeded, the guidelines and policy regarding deletions are clear and nowhere is there anything about a personal vote being invalid. Nowhere in the list of sysop duties does it say "Stick your opinion in the middle of an admin page", if you were saying it was an invalid vote in your role as a sysop the case in qwuestion should have been immediately moved back to A/SD by yourself. You did not do this, you were not acting as a systems adminstrator, you were acting as a normal user trying to put forward your opinion. You used sysop powers for non sysop reasons. Accordingly your word has no greater weight than any other user's and it should have been placed in the same location as the other users.
Given that you have already been found guilty of misconduct previously for editing a protected page, I change my call from warning to 12 hour ban. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 13:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Also your example is a strawman argument, the implication is that you are locking it to stifle discussion through normal edits, this would be misconduct for incorrectly protecting a page, in this circumstance the page was legitimately protected due to an ongoing edit war. The example is a crude attempt to engineer sympathy and obfuscate the facts. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 13:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Why are you so angry? And since when did a 2nd escalation ever call for a ban? I don't understand why you are so hostile toward the admin team here when this is the group that is most likely to just leave everyone alone and not pester people. Look at the VB page. Only 2 cases are presented by sysops and those are relating to ignoring soft warnings (no, I don't want to start that debate) but my point is that this crew isn't stalking users to find vandal edits or arguing with them on their talk pages about their opinions. (well, at least I'm not).
Let me address your points though. If you are saying that the author's vote is valid as a user vote on a deletion then my vote on my own misconduct case is just as valid as a sysop. Not Misconduct You are upset that I added my "opinion" but didn't take any action on it yet I bet if I had moved it back to A/SD we would be here for that instead. User actions like this create a "Damned if you Do - Damned if you Don't" situation. You are making yourself look like someone that is actively out to stir up drama. You also have shown that you have no desire to be reasonable and one only needs to look at the "warning" on your talk page to see your blatant hatred toward sysops.
To be honest, I haven't been spending a ton of time on here right now (which is why I avoided the A/VB drama) so I missed all the discussion on the talk page. I figured it was all happening in VB since there were walls of text on there about it.
But you know what? If you want a 12 hour ban and that will get you off and give you some relief from your pent up rage then fine. I'm going out of town for a few days. I promise not to edit the wiki while on vacation.--– Nubis NWO 23:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Trying to divert attention by bringing up things on my talk page? Did you learn that tactic from the Scientologists? You'll notice that all of my rules are there to remove drama from my page, after all it's not like past experience with sysops on my page has caused drama or anything....
This isn't an escalation, they are the sole province of VB, this is the highlight of another case of misconduct by supposed trusted users. You are well aware that deletions votes and misconduct votes are different, I trust you will remove your vote to save me from bringing another case.
The notion of damned if you do, damned if you don't doesn't apply. You should have used the talk page along with every other user. Your edits here and the previous misconduct case against you over editing a protected page shows that you know it is incorrect conduct. You knew it was incorrect conduct, yet did it anyway.
What we need is a group of sysops that will follow the procedures set down and not wade in without understanding the situation. Unfortunately we are not going to get this due to the intrinsically flawed system of misconduct only being voted on by other sysops who have an obvious interest in controlling the precedent. As for your 'absence', disappearing when things don't go your way? Who are you? Hagnat? -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 10:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I think he is trying to say that, you shouldn't be allowed to post your personal opinion on a locked page, where regular users could not post their personal opinions. Like, the page is blocked because it is in an edit war and the intention is to preserve it in its current state. Also there was similar posts happening on the discussion page, yet you posted on the main page instead, just because you can. You should have posted where everyone else was, coz being a Sysop doesn't mean your personal opinion on this is any more valid than the next users, but I don't think that it is misconduct?--CyberRead240 12:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
So, furthering his own agenda by using sysop abilities is not misconduct? --Midianian|T|DS|C:RCS| 12:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Well I would normally say yes, but precedent or policy hasn't really been upheld in the past few days. Btw, it was a quizzical ? not a self-righteous one :P.--CyberRead240 12:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
to which somebody could aptly respond to once the page was unlocked.... these misconduct cases are starting to get silly.--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS DORISFlag.jpg LOE ZHU | Яezzens 12:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes I don't know if it is misconduct, I don't care if it is, I was just clarifying what Iscariot meant because Nubis didn't seem to get it. He could have posted on the talk page like everyone else though...--CyberRead240 12:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Also, was the page marked that it was protected? Cuz if I remember right, protected pages dont show as protected for those who can edit any page.--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS DORISFlag.jpg LOE ZHU | Яezzens 12:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I remember the edit at the time, I was going to misconduct him for it but I didn't know the proper policy (and I was in enough drama). There were edits flying everywhere, and he was active during the duration so I think he would have known it was blocked from the actions in RC. Judging by his response to Iscariot, I think it is clear that he knew aswell. But, we will see I guess.--CyberRead240 13:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
All fully protected pages have big large colourful template on them. --  AHLGTG 17:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
True, but think of all the pages that we edit regularly that have that template on it. Even my sig page is locked so it's sort of faded into the background, to be honest.--– Nubis NWO 23:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I personally think misconduct should be about bad faith sysop edits, not frivolous tattletailing. Christ, you'd think someone is getting paid to be a sysop these days. Why in the world would someone want to be a sysop of this wiki (which I think people seem to forget is for a basically free game that takes all of 5 minutes to play a day) when you have to keep looking over your shoulder because some idiot wants to try and catch you doing something and can't wait to go tattle to big brother. Seriously... --THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS DORISFlag.jpg LOE ZHU | Яezzens 02:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not Misconduct Admin Page... Admin giving his opinion on a situation that was affecting the "votes". THIS IS WITHIN THE GUIDELINES OF ALLOWABLE CONDUCT BY ADMINS. Now if you will excuse me... Im home sick from work with what feels like a bag of razors trying to pass through my stomach. Conndrakamod TAZM CFT 16:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

There is an established process for adding text to protected pages, it is called 'Requested Edits'. Nubis did not use the established process for his edit and instead arbitrarily used his power as a trusted user to enforce his opinion, this is not the established conduct and therefore should be ruled misconduct. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 10:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
requested edits is about non-admins on non-administration pages. It doesn't apply to text added to pages in the process of carrying out ones abilities/responsibilities as an admin-sysop. Now... if you have a problem with the system put yourself up for promotion, and change it from within. Get off your self important, crusading high horse. I'd have responded to your talk page but you have a request that members of the sysop team not to comment there. Conndrakamod TAZM CFT 11:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Requested edits is for non-admins on non-administration pages is it? I just read A/P, and related policies and I don't see that anywhere. Sysops making shit up? Colour me shocked and amazed(!)
I went into my many reasons for not seeking promotion on the last misconduct case, would you like me to find the link for you? -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 11:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not Misconduct - Sysops are allowed to edit protected pages, and do it all the time while archiving and recording data. What isn't allowed is for a sysop to protect a page in order to get the last word in, or to preserve his version of a page. Given that this was a very temporary protection to stop an edit war while we were sorting out the mess on multiple admin pages, and Nubis wasn't even the one to protect it, it's not misconduct -- boxy talkteh rulz 12:39 29 October 2008 (BST)


This is appears to be not misconduct and it will be archived shortly. --  AHLGTG 22:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

24 August 2008

For giving me vandal warning over an edit to a borderline 'impersonation case.

The details of the case are here.

However, to summarise the background of the case:

I posted a suggestion... This suggestion was copied by another user almost word-for-word, with 'no distinction or differentiation made in its title/header from my original suggestion. It was, in fact, a carbon-copy of my suggestion with only a few words changed at the very end. The sole purpose of the "new" suggestion was quite obviuosly to troll me. I therefore changed the heading to differentiate it from my own. There was no "bad faith" in my edit. I sought to avoid drama by simply making a change to clarify what was an obvious bad faith edit which bordered on impersonation.

I believe that Nubis' use of the ban hammer was quite unwarranted -- especially given the broader context of this case -- and it appears to be an abuse of his sysop powers in order to "make a point" against a user whom he has a personal dislike for and/or differences of opinion with.

That is all.

Have a nice day. --WanYao 03:42, 24 August 2008 (BST)

Not Misconduct - You have never been banned, only warned. If other sysops believe the warning was unwarranted, then they will voice their opinions. If it is decided to be not vandalism then the warning will be purged from your record. --  AHLGTG 05:29, 24 August 2008 (BST)
Misconduct- The warning was absolutely absurd. The fact it was only a warning and not a ban does not in any way diminish that. Nubis made a terrible call against someone against whom he, to all external appearances, has some kind of grudge against. I move for a warning. --The Grimch U! E! 07:36, 24 August 2008 (BST)
Grim remember this:

Vandalism - Someone else created the suggestion there, someone else created the headers. The headers are very strongly implied to be the work of the author of the suggestion. Leaving them in the generic default doesnt give other people the right to change them to insult the poster of the suggestion, correcting them to match the suggestion is fine when left in th default (Much the same as a typo correction), but that did not happen here. Feel free to be insulting in your own posts, but do not resort to impersonation to do so. Also, the edit was entirely made in bad faith, and asking only really applies when there is some doubt over the intent of teh edit. No matter how hard i try i cannnot see how this was made in any small part in good faith. --The Grimch U! E! 04:08, 7 August 2008 (BST) FYI: Im holding off on processing this due to Nubis's stance here. --The Grimch U! E! 04:10, 7 August 2008 (BST)

--– Nubis NWO 13:11, 24 August 2008 (BST)
I was actually the only one to say it wasn't vandalism since it was the same thing that Grim did for J3D.--– Nubis NWO 13:15, 24 August 2008 (BST)
I also find it funny that changing the header to such a lame joke that Ioncannon made it is the type of vandalism that we want to stop yet Wan's trolling and shitting up admin pages is just lovely. Wan, "Burn the witch" is hardly a constructive contribution to the page.--– Nubis NWO 13:15, 24 August 2008 (BST)
Maybe Wan should have changed the header on HIS OWN SUGGESTION instead of vandalizing someone else's.--– Nubis NWO 13:16, 24 August 2008 (BST)
Maybe Ellaandcharlie's headers should have been different in the first place. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 14:16, 24 August 2008 (BST)

While I cannot claim to read Nubis' mind, it is no secret that he has considered a number of my A/VB reports to be "frivolous"... And that my often vocal concerns with the problem of serial trolling on this wiki do not to measure up to the Something Awful standards of macho "it's-just-the-internetz-grin-and-bear-it" toughness" -- to which Nubis aspires. To the point of issueing a "soft warning" recently for my "frivolous" cases. And, I presume, this warning had something to do with driving that point home. Sure looks like it from where I stand... And, I predict he's very likely to bring up these "frivolous" cases in some capacity in his "defence" (or, even more likely, pretend, now that I've mentioned it, that he was going to do no such thing...).

However, I find it curious that my "frivolous" VB cases are of more concern than to him than the serial trolling that goes on regularly on this wiki. Which trolling has often been the subject of my "frivolous" VB cases and comments. And which trolling, as demonstrated by Nubis' consistent comments and actions, are apparently just o-kay spiffy with him... The lack of any ethical or professional compass here is pretty clear to me... if not to others...

Very shortly before this (now overruled) vandal warning was posted to my Talk page, I had chosen to have nothing to any longer with any "administrative" matters on this wiki, nor to contribute any longer to the Talk:Suggestions page -- because I want nothing further to do with the trolls' free-for-all playground that this wiki has become. I find it very interesting how very soon after I edited my user page to reflect this fact, Nubis decided that it was time to level this vandalism warning against me... After the case had been sitting in VB for almost two full days... Frankly, I do not think the timing was a concidence...

Yeah... I made the right decision to walk away... Just, sometimes, people don't let you do such things quite as quickly and cleanly as you'd like. --WanYao 08:29, 24 August 2008 (BST)

Well, that's surprising. I always thought you were a much tougher guy, WanYao. Surely you won't let that let you down, will you? --Aeon17x 08:55, 24 August 2008 (BST)

Not Misconduct But I also think this could have been a place for one of those "soft warnings" as opposed to an official one... Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 15:27, 24 August 2008 (BST)

I agree, he didn't go around banhammering users or torturing puppies, he just voted on an A/VB case, which is within the rights of his Sysop powers. If we start Misconducting people for that then our entire system is gonna hit the fan. Techercizer (Food) (TSoE) 15:55, 24 August 2008 (BST)
No, he didn't "just vote on an A/VB case". He unilaterally declared my edits to be vandalism and then slapped a warning on me. He did so in a very sketchy case, where it was most certainly not clear that it was vandalism; in a case which was not about my vandalism (why not a separate case brought up against me, if I was so out of line?). He make that very controversial call without consultation, without allowing other sysops to vote on the matter or even to discuss it. And he did not apply similar or consistent standards of conduct to the user who literally plagiarised my own work in an effort to troll to the Talk:Suggestions page. Yup, plagiarism is a-okay to Nubis; identifying and correcting said plagiarism is ZOMG vandalism in Nubis' book. As I said above, "The lack of any ethical or professional compass here is pretty clear to me..." --WanYao 18:11, 24 August 2008 (BST)

Nope, Not Misconduct, and I have half a mind to re-enforce the ruling. Either both things are vandalism and you(Wanyao) vandalized first or you were filing a petty case in which case you were wasting everyone's time and that too should warrant at the very least a soft warning, possibly more because you know better. If you're making the argument that his was impersonation and yours wasn't you're fighting a loosing battle, especially because your edit obviously wasn't just for ease of navigation and they're edit was obviously a response to yours which makes that course of action seem both reasonable and allowed. You and Nubis might not get along but I'm not too sure I wouldn't have made the same call as Nubis.--Karekmaps?! 18:22, 24 August 2008 (BST)

Reporting blatant (and disruptive, trollish) plagiarism is not petty... Neither is correcting such (disruptive and trollish) plagiarism a bad faith edit. But, as I have said, "The lack of any ethical or professional compass here is pretty clear to me... if not to others..." --WanYao 18:58, 24 August 2008 (BST)
So what if he trolled first, you escalated it and then filed a report when he did the same thing to you. I'm failing to see what makes his more vandalism when you were the one that changed the rules of the game.--Karekmaps?! 20:49, 24 August 2008 (BST)
Wan didn't escalate the trolling, he simply changed the header (in a neutral fashion) so that people replying to his suggestion wouldn't get take to the newer one from the automatic links on Special:Recentchanges. It's entirely reasonable for the newer suggestion's headers to be the ones that get changed, because the old one has already been established as using that header. As to the vandal report, yes it was a bit petty, but he did think better of it, and withdrew it soon after filing it (before any other discussion/decisions happened). It was basically finished -- boxy talki 10:41 25 August 2008 (BST)

Not misconduct - Although I disagreed with the ruling, Nubis has a right to his opinion on the issue -- boxy talki 10:41 25 August 2008 (BST)


Judged by Majority to be Not Misconduct -- Cheese 22:59, 22 September 2008 (BST)

13 July 2008

Editing the currently protected Template:DunellHillsgroups page in Bad Faith, purely to be an asshat and score points. Adding a zombie group to the pro-survivor listing is stupid and petty and considering the page is protected (and can only be edited by sysops) and in the middle of an edit war, this is an abuse of his sysop powers. -- Cheese 11:45, 3 July 2008 (BST)

I added the Dead as a pro-survivor group. How is that bad faith? How is that stupid? Are you saying that zombies can't be pro-survivor? If you are then that proves the Dead's case against the DHPD since they are almost all zombies. I only added the Dead as a pro-Survivor group since it seems that the only requirement to be a pro-survivor group is to just attack zombies (which the Dead do).
I also thought the page was unprotected since everyone was bitching at Grim for protecting it in the first place. Boxy also said he was against protecting it and didn't think editing it was vandalism but rather an "edit conflict". Everyone else is screaming Arbies. There really should be some consensus on this situation by the sysops otherwise any change to that page will result in VB and misconduct cases on both sides. Is that what you want?--– Nubis NWO 17:04, 3 July 2008 (BST)
Sorry, but the argument "I thought the page was unprotected" is poor seeing that there is a GIGANTIC HUGE TEMPLATE telling you that it is protected. As for the dead being pro-survivor because they sometimes kill zombies (their own?), I think the few thousand harman brains they ate and are still eating outweigh that fact. --  AHLGTG 17:18, 3 July 2008 (BST)
If this is ruled as misconduct i ask that karek be done for the same thing, as he also edited it to support his own personal opinion of how things should work here while it was protected. Remember, this isnt wikipedia, we dont do it their way. As a technically involved party, im not going to rule on this case. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 17:54, 3 July 2008 (BST)
You're hilarious. --brb, church DORIS CGR U! 18:08, 3 July 2008 (BST)
I'm not saying zombies can't be pro-survivors. Life Cultists are a prime example. Killing other zombies doesn't make a zombie group pro-survivor. ZKing. When the zombies are actively attempting to help, for example attacking active zombies to stop them getting at the barricades/survivors, then that would make them pro-survivor to a point. The Dead don't do that. They kill pretty much anyone. So therefore, Pro-Survivor they are not. And you, sir, have proven that you are an idiot. See Gnome's link to the template. -- Cheese 18:50, 3 July 2008 (BST)
Don't play stupid, of course "attacking zombies" isn't the only qualification (I'd say it's not even a requirement). "Helping survivors" is, and The Dead doesn't do that (as far as I know). --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 18:16, 3 July 2008 (BST)
But that's what DHPD is doing (just attacking zombies as zombies) since they aren't repairing the suburb or reviving survivors. So what is the requirement to be pro-survivor then? It seems to just be that they want to be. How dare you tell me what my group wants. Since when did you (Cheese) get to be an expert on the Dead's strategy? How do you know what we do or don't do in DH? Do you have an alt in there?
Where does it say that I can't add my group as pro-survivor when the edit war was over removing DHPD? If some other group had requested they be added to the DH list would we have denied them? What you are all missing is that by my adding The Dead as a pro-survivor group that would be the same as saying that DHPD can stay on as a pro-survivor group since we are both zombies attacking zombies. But no, it's easier to scream misconduct and continue this flame war instead of just pointing out that my actions should have ended this mess. Good Job! --– Nubis NWO 03:49, 4 July 2008 (BST)
Groups that want to help the survivor cause or otherwise against zombies are pro-survivors, zombie groups eat brains, hostile groups shoot people. I think it's fair to say that the Dead's intent is not for helping the survivor cause. --  AHLGTG 04:06, 4 July 2008 (BST)
Actually, they have been as helpful to the survivor cause in the suburb this month as the DHPD. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 04:14, 4 July 2008 (BST)
Read: INTENT. If you want to go into technicalities, I'm sure at some point every zombie group has inadvertently done something good for the humans. --  AHLGTG 04:20, 4 July 2008 (BST)
Unless you are a member of the dead, you cannot determine their intent without examining their actions. If they say they are turning over a new leaf, we cant exactly say they arent until they do something that contradicts it. Not without claiming to have SUPA SEKRIT MIND READING POWERZ at least. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 04:36, 4 July 2008 (BST)
Lol. Hmm yes, examing their actions: check. Survivors brains eaten: check. Sudden increase in red suburbs: check. Reading wiki pages, discussion about eating brains: check. Just for you, I think I'll throw myself into a mob of them to see if I'm eaten, ok? --  AHLGTG 04:41, 4 July 2008 (BST)
Meanwhile, being pro-survivor is not just killing zombies. Being pro-survivor is using FAKs and needles and constructing barricades. And/or searching to allow these things. I mean this is obvious. And Nubis conduct was in Bad Faith, this is obvious, too. I understand his point... but... --WanYao 04:51, 4 July 2008 (BST)

Nice to see that the Dead are a pro-survivor group. I'm sure when The Big Prick Moves in, the burb will bounce back in no time, given their help.
Or, in other words, common sense says this is bullshit, and the edit was a bad faith attempt expand the boundaries of the edit war that the page had been locked for. Making an edit you don;t actually believe to be true just to show that the lack of a rule against such edits is allowing somebody else to do the same is NOT good faith. SIM Core Map.png Swiers 05:19, 4 July 2008 (BST)

This is one of the more interesting misconduct cases I've seen recently. I'd like to remind the voting sysops that their decision will set a precedent. And that picking the wrong answer here could will cause plenty of drama and precedent protected ass-hattery. -- To know the face of God is to know madness....Praise knowledge! Mischief! Mayhem! The Rogues Gallery!. <== DDR Approved Editor 22:02, 4 July 2008 (BST)

"Actually, they have been as helpful to the survivor cause in the suburb this month as the DHPD." How is that exactly? I must have missed something. Ezekiel UK 17:47, 5 July 2008 (BST)

Misconduct - edited a protected page in order to make a troll point trying to cause drama because he's pretending not to know the clear difference between pro-survivor mrh? cows and pro-zombie, brain eating zombies -- boxy talki 14:55 8 July 2008 (BST)

Thank you for proving my point. Zombies are zombies. You are forcing your interpretation on them by classifying them as either Mrh?Cows or Brain Eaters. You are saying that if any zombie attacks another player they are brain eaters and any zombies that stand in revive points are Mrh?Cows, but both DHPD and The Dead have been doing both standing in revive lines and attacking zombies. So why would the DHPD get their choice of title when the Dead don't?
Have you been killed by the Mega Horde of the Dead lately? Have you been revived and rescued by DHPD lately? So how can you say you know the intent of either group?
I'm still waiting on an answer for why you were bitching at Grim for protecting the page, yet so eager to jump on the misconduct wagon for me editing it. I also want to know why adding a group is vandalism/misconduct. If I had removed DHPD I could see that, but I didn't touch them. Once again, the survivor biased wiki ops are telling the Dead how they can present themselves on the wiki. And you wonder why there aren't more zombie groups active on here. --– Nubis NWO 00:53, 10 July 2008 (BST)
I've actually stayed in Dunell Hills for more than just a look-through and have founds some things. --  AHLGTG 01:00, 10 July 2008 (BST)
Still playing stupid, I see. It's not attacking players that makes zombies Pro-Zombie, it's attacking survivors. Attacking survivors doesn't really fit with being Pro-Survivor, now does it? And how does The Dead keep Dunell Hills survivor-free? I doubt they do it by politely asking them to leave. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 11:24, 10 July 2008 (BST)
being pedantic here but... attacking Pkers, Gkers and many other survivors is still pro survivor. That said I don't think anyone would seriously consider the dead to be pro survivor in any way other than that they want people to play survivors so they can eat them. --Honestmistake 11:42, 10 July 2008 (BST)
Then let's say "killing Pro-Survivors" instead of "attacking survivors". Either way, The Dead are not Pro-Survivor. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 12:14, 10 July 2008 (BST)

Half time

After just over a week, we have one ruling of Misconduct. Are there any other takers? There's still another 8 sysops who can rule (15 minus Kevan's 2, minus Nubis, minus Grim (involved party), minus me (I brought the case), minus the two inactives). -- Cheese 19:21, 11 July 2008 (BST)


Since there have been no further comments or rulings, I think this case can be declared closed. Nubis has been found guilty of Misconduct for editing a protected in page without good reason. To clarify this, here is a quote from our very own sysop guidelines:

  • As a subset of their administration powers, system operators also have the ability to edit protected pages. Given that sysops and bureaucrats are the only users who can edit protected pages, it is expected that system operators take care to edit protected pages only in good faith, and not without good reason. System operators are explicitly given the right to edit a page that has been protected due to constant vandalism, and changes are necessary to revert the vandalism. Requests for a system operator to edit a protected page should be placed under the Requested Edits heading on the protections page.

As has been judged, Nubis's edit was not in good faith and as a result, falls under the banner of Misconduct. -- Cheese 19:51, 13 July 2008 (BST)

29 May 2008

Nubis protected many images today ( [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37] ) without going through the proper channels. Precedence.-THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS DORISFlag.jpg LOE ZHU | Яezzens 02:01, 29 May 2008 (BST)

the precedent says enough, misconduct, but since it was me whom created such precedent, i guess this need the ruling of someone else... --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 04:28, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Hagnat ruling misconduct on a case involving lack of going through procedures? Oh, the irony. --brb, church DORIS CGR U! 08:59, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Misconduct - While I can see what he was trying to do (protecting images used on the Item pages), we all have to follow procedure. Best idea would have been to request protection and one of us would have got them. -- Cheese 10:37, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Misconduct - Though it's annoying to say so. Protections must go through established procedure. This isn't exactly life-threatening though and I think that anyhting more than say, a warning or a sharp reminder to follow procedure next time would be silly.--SeventythreeTalk 11:29, 29 May 2008 (BST)

Misconduct Although as far as infractions go I think this is minor to say the least. I do think we need to look at an alteration to the protections policy though that would allow such protections to take place without the need of the red-tape. Obviously these images are permanent elements to either pages, templates or signatures and should be protected. Procedural Warning at most. Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 14:23, 29 May 2008 (BST)

You know...Although I disagree with Nubis' on some of teh grounds he is arguing on...I'm going to change to Not Misconduct. Despite the personal attacks and unprofessional language (On the UD Wiki? Imagine that...) I am now convinced that what Nubis did does in fact fall within the "discretion and judgment" clause of the guideline. Next time try and contacting me on my talk page, despite what some people may think I am in fact an intelligent person with the ability to reason, when you actually use logic rather than opinion surrounded by loosely contributing facts. Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 23:39, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Thats a pretty good idea methinks. Imma go make one up. Back soon. -- Cheese 14:51, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Just brining this to the attention of the Sysops, specifically the bit where he deletes all those images and Sysops generally agree its ok to do. I'm not putting forth a view (seriously I haven't looked at the case), just brining the link to the attention of you lot as a possible precedent.--KOOKY 18:36, 29 May 2008 (BST)
I'm just making the point that if we are going to be looking at Hagnat under a microscope and bringing forth misconduct charges even when the job done is done in good faith to the wiki, then all sysops should have to be scrutinized the same way regardless of how good or bad they are.--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS DORISFlag.jpg LOE ZHU | Яezzens 21:00, 29 May 2008 (BST)

Wow. If this was the only kind of misconduct sysops did around here this place would be utopia.

Clearly knowing how to read is not required before making a misconduct charge or voting misconduct either. The section right up there that says Administrative Abilities says Protection of Pages not images. Protecting pages from editing with out going through the proper channels is understandably bad since this is a wiki and common users need to be able to freely contribute to it.

Besides, the protection page says:This page is for the request of page protection within the Urban Dead wiki. Then below that it says: A link to the page in question. Last time I checked an image was different from a page.

But if you need more evidence that this isn't misconduct I'll point out this:

Guidelines said:

The Sysop Guidelines clearly state:

  • System operators, as trusted users of the wiki, are given the right to make judgment calls and use their best discretion on a case-by-case basis. Should the exact wording of the policies run contrary to a system operators' best good-faith judgment and/or the spirit of the policies, the exact wording may be ignored.

Tell me - if it was truly required for images to go through that page would you have voted NO - don't protect these images that are used on the main information pages in the wiki? Images that if someone deleted them would be vandalism anyway? Were you going to change or upload a new version of these images? The pages weren't protected so you could easily change the images displayed. You would have to submit the images for deletion through the proper channels regardless of if they were protected or not.

Let me point out 9 days ago there were over 8,000 uncategorized images. Between Rosslessness and myself we have brought that number down to 3,000 while the other sysops sat with their heads up their asses not doing a damn bit of "work" around here. You know there were quite a few DHPD related images that were protected. There were SEVERAL images on sysops pages (just in so called IMAGE ARKS) that weren't categorized or really being used either. There were several more images that are clear violations of copyright that should be deleted. So, instead of complaining about the other sysops NOT doing their job you are bitching about the fact that I actually did something without going (unnecessarily) through your fucking red tape? Unbelievable. --– Nubis 21:56, 29 May 2008 (BST)

Oh Nubis, you poor, simple fool. You really think logic is going to get you out of this when your filthy goon nature is what's really on trial here? カシュー, ザ ゾンビ クィーン (ビープ ビープ) ;x You rated this wiki '1'! Great job, go hog wild! @ 22:00, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Yeah, you have been doing an excelent job with the images categorization... kudos for you for that... strangely enough, i too made several huge amounts of contributions to the wiki, and still when i protected an archive page i got misconbitrated... and please drop the persecution hat, katthew. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 22:08, 29 May 2008 (BST)
And nice quoting on the guidelines, but it appears there is something wrong about the trusted user part of it... --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 22:10, 29 May 2008 (BST)
You are hardly the one to be talking. Or do I need to bring up the whole Dead of Dunell Hills mess?--– Nubis NWO 22:21, 29 May 2008 (BST)
I am not the one at trial here... my past actions have already been evaluated, and i have already regreated some of my actions in that occasion. This does not excuse you for breaking guidelines when i have been warned for making the same. It's strange how in your eyes my actions were misconduct, while yours here aint. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 22:25, 29 May 2008 (BST)
You're a real slimeball, you know? --brb, church DORIS CGR U! 22:27, 29 May 2008 (BST)
It doesn't matter if you were categorising the images or not. You should still have put the images up on the protections page. They more than likely would have been protected. The images are still counted as pages in the fact that they are attached to one. If you notice, when you edit the page the image is on, you can insert text to be displayed under the image. It also has a discussion page. Therefore, to all intents and purposes, an Image Page is still a page.
That is not the issue being discussed here. The issue is the fact that you protected pages without going through the red-tape. It's an absolute bastard, I know, but rules are rules. Hence the fact that I'm trying to give us all a bit more wiggle room if this situation ever comes up again. -- Cheese 22:12, 29 May 2008 (BST)

And yeah, Conn, the fact that you and Hag are still "trusted users" is what's wrong with it.--– Nubis NWO 22:13, 29 May 2008 (BST) I protected IMAGES - get that through your fucking heads that IMAGES are not the same as pages. Although, honestly I don't know why I'm bothered by your lack of common sense in this matter. I figure I have at least, what room for 6 more misconduct cases before anyone starts to complain. --– Nubis NWO 22:17, 29 May 2008 (BST) Hagnat - Don't vandalize my fucking post either! You clearly need an image here because you assholes can't tell the difference between images and pages. --– Nubis NWO 22:19, 29 May 2008 (BST)

Resizing an image to imrpove conversational flow is not vandalizm; the meaning isn't changed, and image != quotable text. Repeatedly editing an image layout so that it breaks up page layout, on the other hand, IS potentially vandalism.
Anyhow, I agree this is stupid; why the hell gicve sysops the ability to do these tasks, then make them jump through hoops to do them? If the task was done in good faith, it should be like any good faith edit, and not counted as vandalism or whatever. I don't agree that they all needed protection (my "sad tree" image is no national treasure) but it doesn't do any harm, as I can't see why anybody except a sysop would ever need to edit it. As long as none of the images are ones normal users should be able to edit (IE, they have gone a long time with no edits and have a clear use, or are part of protected pages, etc) then I say its NOT misconduct. SIM Core Map.png Swiers 22:32, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Where in the hell does it say that you can edit someone's posts for the sake of "conversational flow"? Because there are a few vandalism cases based on the very fact that you CAN'T do that. Where does it say that you can only post images of a certain size (except in the signature guidelines?)--– Nubis NWO 23:03, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Use your brain. You seem to be a very logical person, which I respect. However, does it not make sense that a large image on an Administration page that has about the same level of seriousness as Vandal Banning would be a bit of a stupid idea? Think about it. If that happened on VB, that would more than likely be an instant vandal case. -- Cheese 23:06, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Your sad tree is part of a UD tradition and should be saved. And clearly those were good faith edits, but I'm not surprised that none of these Mensa Applicants can see that. --– Nubis NWO 22:43, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Yeah, totally agree with you there. Now say that for the fools who brought me for misconduct for making the same thing, in a smaller and more obvious case than yours. It's strange how BOTH of them didnt said a word in here yet... makes me wonder... --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 22:50, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Um, because im busy with things like sorting out my internet and phone bills, as well as work? Because so many people have ruled already that a further ruling would be an excercise in pointlessness? Because im taking a week off the drama fest that is administration to persue other projects? Because i feel i have enough on my plate without getting involved in this drama bomb? Mix all these reasons, add a dash of chocolate, and then put them through a blender and you have why i hadnt commented until now, and why i shant comment again after now for another six days, what with me already being a day into my hiatus. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 11:11, 30 May 2008 (BST)
If you want to stay away from the drama, then why did you created that arbie against conn ? You do know that drama lives there... and, heh, like any of the stuff you said ever prevented you from voicing your opinion (full o' righteous fairness and justice and puppies, in your POV) --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 12:31, 30 May 2008 (BST)
Hahaaaa -- boxy talki 17:51 31 May 2008 (BST)

Look, its fine that you dont want to be punished by this. I didnt in my case too. But five sysops have already voiced their opinion that this is a case of misconduct, while swiers just said it isnt. There is no point arguing about this, as the voice of the majority is what matters, right ? And, if this case was to be ruled as not misconduct, i would gladly request my misconduct case to be overuled accordingly --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 22:40, 29 May 2008 (BST)

Fuck yeah, can't wait around for anyone else to show up! Gotta push through that action before anyone who might have a solid argument shows up! Toot toot, get the fuck out of the way, it's Goddamn hagnat here to prematurely ejaculate his unwanted opinions all over the fucking wiki! --カシュー, ザ ゾンビ クィーン (ビープ ビープ) ;x You rated this wiki '1'! Great job, go hog wild! @ 23:12, 29 May 2008 (BST)
Shoo troll! *attacks with broomstick* Back to your bridge! Away with you! -- Cheese 23:15, 29 May 2008 (BST)

Yeah, silly precedence, but "whatever", still against the rules. Use A/PT, follow guidelines, yadda yadda. Really silly, seeing that the pages will remain protected, just like the other case. Not really abuse though, isn't that what misconduct is for? It's not like anyone is going to need to edit those pages/images. Hurr.--  AHLGTG 23:41, 29 May 2008 (BST)

well, we can avoid such annoying precedence by overuling my previous case... whatya think ? :evilgrin: --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 23:45, 29 May 2008 (BST)
I'd be for that, if it was allowed. Generally, I don't think it's a problem for sysops to protect those no-need-to-edit pages against vandalism or silly mistakes. However, this wouldn't be precedence to allow them to protect random prolific (even if barely used) pages. --  AHLGTG 23:50, 29 May 2008 (BST)

I don't really see the point in protecting those pages. The trenchies that comes along wanting to put a bigger guns on the firearms page are just going to upload another image elsewhere and change the page, but still, this is just like the hagnat case. No one wants them unprotected, no one is inconvenienced by them being protected, so why bother with misconduct. It's a shitty precedent, which I also ruled not misconduct on. (Oh, and images do indeed equal pages in this context, because no non-sysops can add a category to those images now... the image page has been protected) -- boxy talki 03:29 30 May 2008 (BST)

Like i already said, if nubis gets away with a not misconduct ruling, i demand my previous case (both january cases) to be overuled as well, for fairness, great justice, and all. Both cases where me doing work and simply protecting/removing pages that would eventually be protected/deleted anyway. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 12:39, 30 May 2008 (BST)
The way I see it it's either very minor misconduct if we take Hagnat's previous case as a precident, with nothing stronger than Nubis being told to use proper protocol in future, or it's not misconduct and Hagnat's ruling of misconduct gets overturned (assuming off course that the two cases are similar enougth) Either way I say we should clarify the rules a bit more to take this sort of thing into account. I personaly don't think what Nubis did was in bad faith, even though I can see that according to some interpritations of the rules as they stand and possibly some precident in other misconduct cases it was misconduct.--SeventythreeTalk 01:32, 31 May 2008 (BST)
Which case would you mean, I can think of three similar Hagnat cases off the top of my head and none of which are particularly similar to this case beyond that they involved protecting things without using A/PT.--Karekmaps?! 23:28, 1 June 2008 (BST)

Why (almost) no one here can understand that if you protect an image it is different than protecting a page is beyond me. If you protect an image the only thing that happens is it can't be deleted by a normal user (which is impossible anyway) and the category and notes on it can't change. (This shouldn't be a big deal since there are over 2600 images that don't even have categories and 4000 more that didn't until I and Ross started adding them). That means that no one was rushing around categorizing images as their usage changed or at ALL obviously! Any discussion of an image is normally on the talk page associated with the PAGE the image is displayed on. (please point out an image that has an extensive discussion on the talk page, because I am very curious to see it.) The image can still be used anywhere by anyone. It can be altered in size by the person posting it. It can be removed from any unprotected PAGE that it is being used on. It does not affect how it is used on this wiki at all. The only thing it would affect would be if someone wanted to revise the image which I do not believe is the case in any of those images. People upload an entirely new image then edit THE PAGE it is displayed on.

If you protect a PAGE NOTHING can be changed on it. There is a hell of a lot more content on a PAGE than there is on an image. Personally, I see no reason to protect non Administration PAGES because if we sysops are doing our jobs then we would notice any changes on PAGES and determine if they were vandalism or not.

Look at it this way. If Hagnat protected this page no one (but sysops) could post anything on it. But if I protected the UD Logo on this page everyone is still free to post anything they want on here. In no way am I limiting what contributions users can make to a page displaying that image. It isn't preventing any one's ability to use the image. If the page is locked down it alters users' abilities to use the page.

It is in no way Misconduct. It certainly isn't bad faith. And unlike in many of the misconduct cases against Hagnat my actions were in no way self serving or biased. I certainly don't have a "fuck the rules" attitude nor do I even show a group bias even though I am proudly a Goon. So it isn't like I went around protecting my groups' images without going through the proper channels. If you can't see what I am showing you with those links the first one is to a protected DHPD image and the next two are to the Protection pages covering that time span which don't show Conndraka submitting the images for protection. (and this one) I think there were a few more I could dig up. Like these: [38] [39] [40] [41]

If my actions are misconduct then his are clearly, too. But it was nice of you to change your decision to a warning, Conn. I bet you knew I would post this.--– Nubis NWO 21:24, 31 May 2008 (BST)

ummm no I didn't. And it doesn't really matter that you did. Most of those images were protected when Maxwell Hammer/Reetoric was actively vandalizing DHPD images. I was warned for it as well. But an Image does in fact count as a page although it is in a bizarre quasi-state. You can go to the image alone, the image can be given its own comments, and even given its own categories. However, I do agree with you that it most certainly isn't bad faith. Now Group affiliation has nothing to do with anything, Believe it or not if you are a "Goon" and do something I feel is positive for the Wiki or UD then I will support it. Hell I don't even have to like you to support something you do as long as I honestly feel is good. I've even voted for suggestions that Goons have put forth because they made sense. Now I understand why the majority of Goons don't like me as it comes down to a philosophical difference in information management, as well as a couple of misunderstandings that no Goon has ever tried to bother clearing up with me. Regardless, For reasons that I beleive are correct I support you in this situation. Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 23:16, 31 May 2008 (BST)
You'll understand if I don't take your word for it that you were warned for that. Your warning in vandal data is in August. You protected the images in October. There doesn't seem to be an official warning. Maybe this is a case that calls for a soft warning. And speaking of Vandal Data I am overdue to get my warning from December struck for edits. --– Nubis NWO 17:12, 1 June 2008 (BST)
Yes... October 2006. I'll see if I can find the warning from Xoid. And I'll take care of that strike for you as soon as I can. Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 18:04, 1 June 2008 (BST)
Protecting pages/images that are target of constant acts of vandalism without going thorugh the proper channels is within the rules, and expected from sysops to do. And we usually dont rule over cases that long in the past.
Yes, you can still use images in other pages after they got protected, but preventing its usage is not the aim of protecting them. The goal of a protection is to prevent the page/image from being changed, and to images this applies to both the image and the referring page to it (where categories, descriptions and copyright notices about the image are added). The images you protected were not the target of an active vandal (heck, they saw no vandalism at all), hence there was no need for them to be protected without going through the proper channels... or so said those who ruled misconduct in my case. It's a stupíd precedence, but once its there i think it should be served against all those who abuse their sysop rights.
If you agree that my previous cases, that serve as precedence for this case, were not misconduct and should be overuled, then such precedence wouldnt exist and this case of your would be made null and void. While such precedence exists, i can only (and sadly) say that this case is one of misconduct --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 18:56, 1 June 2008 (BST)

Not Misconduct, and claims that this is similar to the Hagnat case show a lack of understanding of both cases, the Hagnat case was one where possibly contributive and useful edits could have been added to the article in question, this one is not, the images are high profile and as such should be protected against uploading which, the large number alone makes the case that it was a - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Karek (talkcontribs) at 23:28, 1 June 2008.


As it stands Not Misconduct. Swiers, Karek, Boxy, and Myself see the case as being within the granted authority of a sysop, especially with good faith intentions. Cheesey, Seventythree, and Hagnat are in favor of Misconduct but only on procedural grounds, that based upon facts of the case warrant a warning at most. It is therefore my belief that we need to go grab beers at the local watering holes and call this one done and archived. Note to Hagnat, since this is an ex post facto in comparison to previous cases, I couldn't support revisiting the previous cases that fall within this guideline, however I do beleive it reverses the current precedent in such future cases that are within the same guidelines as this one. Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 23:00, 2 June 2008 (BST)

And I believe you're a fool for saying such, it just shows you can't even be consistent with regards to past cases as a basis for future rulings except when the cases aren't exactly the same.--Karekmaps?! 05:57, 3 June 2008 (BST)
Ex post facto ? It wasnt misconduct before grim and karek argued the fuck until they got the veredict they wanted. Most sysops agreed that it wasnt worthy of a misconduct, but agreed because of grim's vitrol on how it wasnt allowed in the rules as they whey written. Less than five months later, the same issue appears in the wiki with an absurd ammount of pages, pages/images that werent even uploaded by the protecting users, and you say that now it isn't misconduct? Rules do change with time, but not in that short period of time in such informal way. Like in my case, these pages could've been improved by other users and were not target of vandalism. I am not saying i dont agree with nubis... its stupid to demand sysops to request page/image protections, as we have the tools to do it. But since a precedence for doing so is considered misconduct exists, i fail to see how this could be ruled otherwise. Either rule with the precedence at hand, or remove it --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 13:56, 3 June 2008 (BST)
What I'm trying to say here Hagnat is that I agree with you, but we cant go back and change what was done in the past. But from this point forward... this case should be the bellwether in determining future cases. Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 09:20, 5 June 2008 (BST)
Given how often Hagnat gets his misconduct record thrown at him the very least that should be done is that a strongly worded note be added to the misconduct report saying that as a result of community discussion such actions are no longer misconduct and that the warning was therefore only a technicality. Either that or Grim's assertion that we have different rules for different people really does look true.--Honestmistake 09:49, 5 June 2008 (BST)
Yeah but not in the way you're intending to insinuate.--Karekmaps?! 12:24, 5 June 2008 (BST)
Honestamistake says exactly what i feel about this case. Someone is being threated differently by both grim and karek, and the rest of the sysop team is going with them because they dont need to face grim's vitrol this time. It is the same shit that i have done, and even in a larger scale, yet both grim and karek fail to condemn his actions in such heated fashion as they did with mine. Grim's so-called vacation from drama was already proved to be a lie, as he created an arbie against conn, argued with cyberbob in here, and had issues with j3d for a petty redirection to his user page (both here and in #udwiki, where grim showed his maturity by banning j3d from the channel to avoid having to discuss this case with him... so much for an "official udwiki channel", heh?), and also had the time to comment on tselita's vandal case, several times. From the beginning of this misconduct case, grim said he wouldnt touch it with a mile long stick, because he knew that he would have to rule against nubis or be accused of exercising exactly what he says he doesnt like, enforcing the rules differently to users we like from the users we dislike, and from this "crime" karek has already made himself guilty of with his previous ruling of not misconduct on this case. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 00:38, 8 June 2008 (BST)
How about you read over both cases again and try to figure out what is different in the two cases before jumping to the conclusion that someone's getting special treatment, I make it extremely clear what is the determining factors in both cases and it's not who's "on trial".--Karekmaps?! 00:42, 8 June 2008 (BST)
Actually, something must have happened to your interwebs, and your comment was cut in half. People could've contributed to the article i protected, and so could the images nubis protected. Someone might think he missed a category or two, or decided to upload a different image than the already existing one.. who knows ? And my page was one that i had created based on another (it was an archive, d'uh), if people felt i made a mistake they could've reverted the page to before the archiving and/or contacted me or another sysop to make the appropriate changes. And, even though i was found of misconduct for protecting that page, no one even touched it or unprotected it. The only edit that page got was from vantar two months and a half after my misconduct case. Why no one misconducted vantar for editing a protected page ? Or nubis for doing the same in the other archives ? Threating people differently, heh ? --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 01:00, 8 June 2008 (BST)
How about you people actually try and change the rules instead of just starting to rule against them? --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 16:33, 5 June 2008 (BST)

I guess i dont need to actually write this down, but there might be some blind people in here. I do agree that this is not a case of misconduct, i have no issues with nubis work beyond him being an arse against the dhpd, but that is something all goons are guilty of. (heh). My trouble in this case is that the administration team ruled against me in the past, mostly because they didnt wanted to face grim's vitrol and karek support of it, and now there is a similar case (not equal, because its on a larger scale and on pages the protecting user wasnt the sole contributor) and i see most of the administration staff ruling differently from what was ruled on the past, simply because they dont have grim and karek opposition against them. Ruling not misconduct on this case show two things: that grim and karek threat users differently (and so do the rest of you guys), and that the rest of you guys are weak to defend your beliefs. And ruling this misconduct, you are letting a stupid precedence go by, and making the sysop team feel more powerless than it already was. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 00:51, 8 June 2008 (BST)

Hagnat, those things you said make this and the other case not the same are also pretty big differences, not to mention the type of page, the limitations on recovering information lost from that type of page, the age of the pages in question, and the situations surrounding and leading up to the actual administrative action taken. If you would like an example of two cases that are exactly the same being ruled differently due to administrative bias I suggest you look in your own misconduct archive because there is no better example on this whole wiki of such a thing than this case. --Karekmaps?! 01:06, 8 June 2008 (BST)
the limitations on recovering information lost from that type of page - You speak like regular users could delete images... aside from this limitation of recovery, which is only an issue when a sysop deletes an image, image are no different from regular pages or, in a better comparison, template pages. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 01:14, 8 June 2008 (BST)
If he had been protecting things from Category:Utility Templates I would have ruled pretty much the same. I know users can't delete images themselves, they can, however, set them up in a manner that they get accidentally removed in a scheduled administrative action and the ease of doing that is unique to images, the fact that he was doing a scheduled general user task when he came across and protected images helps make the case in his favor, and, as he has pointed out, these had a snowballs chance in hell of failing. Even then, Ignoring all of that, I'll bring out a quote from me from the case that is being used to claim bias.
Karek said:
If this was your first time here for something along these lines I'd probably rule not misconduct but, your whole misconduct archive is full of stuff just like this, you know better and did it anyway in clear violation of policy. So, sorry but, Misconduct.
My stance on it then is pretty much the same as my stance on it now, there are differences in the two cases and it bewilders me that some users can not see them, but I did not rule Not Misconduct here because I think Nubis is entitled to a lighter interpretation of the rules.--Karekmaps?! 01:38, 8 June 2008 (BST)
My misconduct history if full of cases such as these because of users like grim and yourself, which dislike my work for a reason and create cases for the smallest of the issues. Also, i recently worked out on my misconduct archive, and found out how grim was wrongly accusing me of having more guilty cases than i actualy had in the past, and this vote of yours might have been cast based on this erroneous and unfair fact. And i think we already have reached a concensus that images == pages, or do you want to wave around that image nubis was using in the beginning of this case ? --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 01:59, 8 June 2008 (BST)
If you're going to accuse me of this without reason or fact behind it go ahead, but don't expect me to indulge you except to point out that I avoid making misconduct cases against people in all but extreme circumstances like the one which I filed against Boxy, which, to my memory, is the only Misconduct case I have started against anyone ever. --Karekmaps?! 02:06, 8 June 2008 (BST)
Oh please... i said people like you and grim, not exactly you and grim (although grim does create petty cases of misconduct, like the ones that serve as precedence for this case). --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 02:13, 8 June 2008 (BST)


I call for a vote. Discussing this is going nowhere. Seven days for voting. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 01:32, 8 June 2008 (BST)

Not Misconduct + Overuling of Precedence
  1. --People's Commissar Hagnat talk - mod 01:32, 8 June 2008 (BST) No longer sysop. -- Cheese 11:47, 3 July 2008 (BST)
Not Misconduct
  1. I don't think the other case should be overruled, however the precedence is silly. The last was quite petty, this is a little more complicated due to the amount of pictures protected, but still petty. The images had little need to be altered and neither this or Hagnats case were abuse. I see little problem in protecting those, as long as it isn't a frequently updated image from some user, just use common sense. The only thing that should be done differently in these instances is making a note of it on A/PT for others to review or revert if necessary. --  AHLGTG 01:54, 8 June 2008 (BST)
    To be fair it is only that large of an amount because I am very industrious once I start a project. I did in fact clear the list of uncategorized images. --– Nubis NWO 03:24, 8 June 2008 (BST)
  2. As AHLG, Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 19:50, 8 June 2008 (BST)
  3. User:Swiers (from above)
  4. User:Karek (from above)
  5. User:Boxy (from above)
Misconduct + warning
  1. Procedures exist for a reason, and while following them all the time may seem silly in some cases, its far simpler to do so than to set silly exceptions that half the people forget, and the others ignore until it suits them, and it just creates a maze of exceptions that no one can possibly navigate until we are stuck in flamewars over pretty m,uch any excess. Misconduct is not the place to challenge the rules. It is the place to determine whether or not a sysop acted beyond the existing boundaries he or she has been set in the use of his powers. So even if, like AHLG you find no problem in him actually doing this, you are undermining the system by ruling this not misconduct. The place to take care of the rules is A/PT in the protections scheduling area down the bottom, not misconduct. I congratulate Hagnat, AHLG and Conndraka on their attempts to undermine the system from within, especially with hagnat twice going misconduct above. It appears the selfish lure of trying to get the ruling on one of his own long dead cases was enough to sway him away from common sense. As i had to say on the Jorm vandalism case: Change doesnt happen because you throw a wrench into the works. All that does is break the machine without providing for a new one. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 03:07, 9 June 2008 (BST)
    I don't see a problem because there is no problem. Nothing has been broken, no pages(images) have been deleted. I agree that procedure exists for a reason, just like sysops must go through A/SD to delete things (as a double check) for those trivial cases, however I'm not trying to create precedence for sysops to go around protecting random pages, filing a report and becoming immune from consequences. There is no bad faith here, or a blatant attempt to ignore the rules for the hurrs or has been in any way abuse of powers. In the future, a report should be filed on the actions (like what is usually done with moves). Really though, misconducting someone for doing something that was right (as the protection hasn't been reverting, and there is no indication that it should be)? --  AHLGTG 04:15, 9 June 2008 (BST)
    And you wonder why i have often described you as clueless and incompetant. Good or bad faith has never been a deciding factor in what is or isnt misconduct. You are thinking of Vandalism. What is and always has been the tipping factor in misconduct is if a sysop has misused their powers by avoiding the systems we have in place, for good or for ill. We are not moderators. There is an entire policy dedicated to pointing that out. We are janitors. We stick to the procedures, we write new ones when needed and have them ratified by the community. We cannot make things up as we go along because we end up with an internally inconsistent bunch of mumbo jumbo that is as sturdy as a sandcastle in a cyclone. A protections request for those images, plus a protections scheduling vote would have been more than sufficient to settle this issue once and for all. It wasnt done, however. Misconduct is not the place to hammer out exceptions to rules. That is the realm of the schedulings and policy discussion. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 20:35, 9 June 2008 (BST)
    Major disconnect there is that we are not janitors, we aren't responsible for cleaning up for everyone else's mess just expected to as members of the community, more-so we're expected to know how to do it right because we are marked as knowledgeable and trustworthy members of the community. We aren't Moderators, but you're taking that beyond it's meaning, we don't moderate user interaction, that's why we aren't moderators, we're still expected to maintain the wiki, as members of the community. We enforce the rules, ideally we wouldn't be the ones forced to interpret them too, but that is not the case here. We do have user discussion to use as a guide but, largely, the interpretation of when a rule is enforced and when enforcing it is impractical or just idiotic are left to us, the SysOps, that's in part why we even have the Misconduct system, to judge the judgement calls.--Karekmaps?! 20:54, 9 June 2008 (BST)
    Lookie here and see if you can find the exception that grants him the ability to bypass the system. if you find it ill change my decision, but i dont think you will. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 06:30, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    It's right around here. It's not that he's purposely bypassing the system for the sake of bypassing it, it's that he's bypassing it because it's actually foolish for him to go through the system before doing the protections. I agree there's a problem that he didn't document action taken, but aside from that he meets the common sense exceptions for judgement in that section. It's basically the kind of think Xoid is talking about here in regards to why it isn't done in the usual manner.--Karekmaps?! 16:26, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Thats a big stretch karek, Just so you know, the talk page isnt the policy thats voted on. All sorts of ideas get thrown around on those pages. While iot does give you permission to ignore the precise letter in favour of the spirit, the fact is that the whole reason the protections page exists is for the oversight of the use of that ability, and bypassing it bypasses not only the exact letter of it, but also the very spirit of having it in the first place. He should have simply filed a request. It would have been protected within an hour or two, six hours at the most. A deletions scheduling request could also have been filed for this matter, but it was not. These steps were pathetically easy and theres next to no cost involved in doing both of them except maybe a couple of hundred extra keystrokes. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 16:34, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Oh I wouldn't say it's a big stretch, it's more of a stretch assuming the system was written the way it was to purposely make things as hard as possible and that there was no expectation of common sense in regards to interpreting guidelines in the first place. There's certainly much to be said about the intentions of the writings of that policy in the first place which gets more to the point of why such an exception was added at all, just like the precedence one, it's a matter of making the system work for the users, it's not an excuse for everything that is done in good intentions but it pretty clearly covers cases where following the set procedure is a lesson in futility.--Karekmaps?! 16:49, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Sorry, but I just can't agree with punishing someone for a evidently proper decision, the quoted guideline rule above certainly has some merit. There is absolutely no harm done, therefore, it is not misconduct and it's not like going through A/PT would have made a difference, seeing that the images are still protected. In this case, it's clear that he isn't blatantly ignoring rules for the hurrs, or has had that attitude in the past. And good and bad faith does apply, or good and bad judgement. It is why you weren't misconducted for banning someone while being banned (despite your edit summary: Permabanned vandal. Yes im banned. I dont care.)--  AHLGTG 22:03, 9 June 2008 (BST)
    AHLG, i was wondering how long it would take someone to bring that case up. The summary for that was that i knew there would be a kerfuffle about it, and i didnt care as the prick was actively vandalising the wiki and there was no indication that there were any active sysops who would stop him. The clear difference between the two cases is that in mine there was nothing saying i couldnt do it, while in this case the guidelines clearly state it isnt allowed to protect things without an active edit war, a protections request, or scheduling. True, no harm was done with those specific protections, but look at the harm it actually has caused. Hagnat is here ruling on this and trying to rule on a closed misconduct case of his own from months ago to retroactively reverse the ruling, despite in the discussion constantly supporting a misconduct verdict on the case. Something fishy there. Im going to bring him up on charges for that later on after this is all settled. The fact of the matter is that this case actually has done harm. It has undermined the system we have in place, and done nothing to change or improve it. There were clear and easy ways to make the requests legally and the fact he elected not to do so was misconduct. I would rule the same way were it anyone here. In such cases judgement doesnt come into play, they werent under any form of threat by vandals, they certainly hadnt been vandalised at all, and it would be a simple matter to put up a protections request for them all and let them be dealt with while at the same time setting up a scheduling vote. It is not the place of misconduct to challenge policy. That is the sole realm of A/PD. You dont like the rules? You think they are stupid? On this case i happen to agree. You should write better rules, while upholding the ones we have until thats done, otherwise the whole system falls apart. Sheesh, what the fuck happened to your common sense? I direct you to this. Nothin in here says we are allowed to bypass the entire system to do whatever we feel is right. We can make decisions where policy is not in place (My banning a vandal as a banned user is one of these examples), we can ignore specific wording if need be, but nothing says we can bypass the entire system. Sysop abilities are not to be used without oversignt, because, frankly, the mahjority of sysops are fucking morons, yourself included. this means people like Nubis have to suffer the consequences of stepping outside those clear boundaries, even with the best of intentions. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 06:30, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    And you want to be a Bureaucrat?nothing saying i couldnt do it You were BANNED. i.e. no editing privileges what so ever...now either we are going to take good intentions into account or we are not. You are purposefully splitting hairs to excuse yourself and still allow you to persecute others. Your attitude about your "co-workers" shows nothing but your own worthlessness as a human being, and I for one am tired of it. You might be a good sysop, but your interpersonal skills (unless its with a sycophant) sucks. Take some anti-depressants and quit thinking yourself of God of all that is wiki. btw judgment, oversight, majority,and that comes from someone who can't spell worth crap. Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 07:01, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Nice tantrum conn. Banning a vandal isnt editing at all, its merely utilising a sysop ability. If youd actually read the case summary you would see that almost every sysop ability is disabled when banned, except the banning function. The software drew the line, there was no policy regarding use of administrative abilities while banned, i followed through. You can accept that or you can try to beat a dead horse. I for one advocate leaving dead horses alone. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 07:25, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    To be fair Grim there may be practical reasons for that, and not ones of which actions are allowable, ban control is the only way to unban oneself if another sysop is abusing power and bans the whole team. Either way banning an active vandal isn't misconduct, that's already agreed upon and really doesn't matter to this case except to point out that it's a common sense action.--Karekmaps?! 16:31, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Bollocks, are you blaming me for what Nubis did? Are you crazy? And does this: System operators, as trusted users of the wiki, are given the right to make judgment calls and use their best discretion on a case-by-case basis. Should the exact wording of the policies run contrary to a system operators' best good-faith judgment and/or the spirit of the policies, the exact wording may be ignored. ...not speak to you as "bypass the entire system to do whatever we feel is right." Perhaps not the entire wiki, just one sliver of it. --  AHLGTG 18:36, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Your continued ignorance is amusing. I did not accuse you of doing what Nubis has done. I accused you of being an idiot who doesnt understand the limitations on his power, and as i have on numerous previous occasions, i accused you of being inept. In any case, if a sysop can just protect pages he feels like, so long as its in good faith, then why do we even need the scheduled protections system? He bypassed the entire protections system by doing this. This is not specific wording running agaisnt the spirit of the rule, this is him violating both the spirit and letter of even having protections in the first place. Id like to take a moment to point out that if you hadnt been so eager to argue with me, id have been happy to leave this discussion with merely my vote on the issue. Just an FYI. Didnt you guys already have the argument section anyway? --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 18:49, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    I didn't comment much there. The reason why we have A/PT is for other users to easily grab our attention and to keep track of protections, organization if you will. If a sysop can just protect pages he feels like, so long as its in good faith, then why do we even need the scheduled protections system? I'm thinking the same thing, Grim. --  AHLGTG 18:56, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Well, the answer is because we cant. Thats why we have Scheduled Protections. And yet nubis did, which is why this is misconduct. In any case, thanks for all but declaring you havent a leg to stand on. It certainly makes my job easier. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 19:06, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Although I still agree with my stance on how page protection should be handled (in the italic quote above), for simplicity I am going to agree with you (on the points, not the attacks). I'll add more, latter, got to go.--  AHLGTG 19:20, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    The answer is because not everyone is a sysop, and those who aren't need to use that page. Sysops who are acting in good faith should not have to. Conndrakamod TTBA CFT 19:48, 10 June 2008 (BST)
    Look at how well you ignore the question of why we have scheduled protections in the first place. A quick reading of A/G regarding the protection of pages pops up the following few interesting quotes.
    System operators may only protect pages that users have requested be protected on UDWiki:Administration/Protections, or (for a short period, and without the need for a protection request) high-visibility pages that are undergoing repeated vandalism.
    The above pretty clearly explains the times we are allowed to protect. It later mentions an exception foor protections scheduling.
    Further, except in the instance of heavy vandalism mentioned above, system operators may not protect a page that they themselves have requested be protected. It is part of a system operator's responsibility to check these pages often and serve any pending requests, subject to the guidelines above.
    Pretty clear that the guidelines state that we cannot protect willy nilly on our own judgement in any case we choose. You and AHLG are trying here to strip away the layers of protyection that prevent a sysop from abusing his or her powers. And believe me, the moment you succeed, ill make you regret it, not because i like abuse, but to prove the fucking point of why we have these systems in the first place. Scheduled protections exists for the express purpose of cutting through the bureaucracy in place in the case of no brainer decisions. In every other situation, a sysop is considered to be a regular user making a request, because our judgement is not intrinsically worth any more than anyone elses. --The Grimch U! E! WAT! 07:35, 11 June 2008 (BST)
(Not a vote, clearly) I see both sides of this and completely understand the Misconduct votes. I just want to say this in my defense, that at the time before I did any of it I read the protections page and honestly believed that images were considered different entities from actual pages since protecting them does not stop usage and they aren't mentioned specifically. (you can see how strongly I believed that by what I argued.) I will accept the Misconduct decision since the Protections page is in existence, but ask for an edit stating images also need to be listed and some set policy regarding Main Page/Informational image protection. And yes, ignorance of the law is not an excuse. But as someone that tries to follow policy as it is written I was misled. Knowing (now) that the opinion is that images = pages I have to admit that I would probably vote Misconduct (procedural or soft warning) also. It just sucks that I have to have this kind of mark on my record though. I really think sysops should have the ability to use their own judgment to protect images, but until it is written I can see that that won't be the case in the current environment. --– Nubis NWO 20:07, 10 June 2008 (BST)
Well, if you're going to take that tack, you'd better stop deleting pages as well then, unless they're requested on A/SD. I can't find any SD listing for these ones you deleted. Template:Another gun template, Template:173rd, Template:HypnotoadRight, Sinclair Temp, Doctor Medicine, Cody Mac/, worthy though they are -- boxy talki 08:47 11 June 2008 (BST)
Or just get used to seeing my name on here for thinking that sysops are supposed to be proactive and work for the wiki and not the bureaucracy.
Hmmm. The interesting thing about these: (Cody Mac - May 24th posted on SD by Pdeq) Doctor Medicine was deleted after Vantar had moved the content under the User's space where it belonged. Template 173 isn't deleted and I am not on its' history. As far as the other 3 listed I have no clue if there are extenuating circumstances to those or not.--– Nubis NWO 17:18, 11 June 2008 (BST)
  1. User:Seventythree. (from Above).
  1. I can't be arsed getting into another flame war over this. -- Cheese 15:01, 8 June 2008 (BST)


After over a month of this case being open there is a majority verdict of Not Misconduct. Case closed. -- Cheese 11:52, 3 July 2008 (BST)

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