UDWiki:Open Discussion/Monroeville How Was It For You?

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This is NOT a policy discussion. This is an Open Discussion about the unique Monroeville situation. Add your thoughts and ideas. Please treat it as such and contribute with that in mind.

A vague Attempt at order.

Ok. For Clarity Can each person please state their opinions under a header featuring their user name. After that, discuss here, or on the talk page.

Overwhelming themes.

Well. The first thing this discussion has thrown up is the idea that the city design was much better than Malton. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:15, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Also noted is the fact that headshot destroyed what little zombie threat was actually present. ---Survivor Josh 22:43, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Rosslessness

Ah Monroeville. My biggest problem was its size. Its unmapped hugeness and slow hordes meant that zeds were at a disadvantage they never really recovereds from. Traditional hording (on a meta level) took too long, by which time the FAK/AXE brigade were already cading and planning. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:47, 8 June 2008 (BST)

Also as Swiers. In the end Monroeville Many Pitmans Minions, Cornfed Undead, Monroeville Resistance Front and others, converged on west Monroeville, and were enjoying our own mini mall tour. But whilst this was going on what was going on elsewhere? Anyone got any firsthand reports on Newtown? Or the South? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 22:13, 8 June 2008 (BST)

Swiers

What few organized zombies there were did just fine under the original rules. They were in fact much more powerful than in Malton; 20 or so member hordes of organized zombies could and did destroy entire malls. Under those rules, zombies faced just one problem; lack of numbers. Few people played them initially, and that never went up much.
They lost all viability under the later rules. Head shots dropped their numbers fast- not surprising, given the ratio of hunters to zombies. Even WITHOUT actual hunting, fewer people chose to stand up as a zombie under those rules; the two effects combined meant no zombies. The "no idle out" policy also meant an uphill fight, as every survivor alt ever created acted as a meat sheild, even if the player never logged in.  Swiers 22:09, 8 June 2008 (BST)

Survivor Josh

I agree with the person above me. Monroeville suffered mostly because nobody has an interest in playing a zombie character. Because of this, a survivor headshotting a zombie resulted in one less zombie for the survivors to deal with. The counterbalance to this was that survivors who were killed would convert and fight for the zombies. However, this did not occur, and killed survivors merely used alt survivors or chose to abandon Monroeville and rejoin Malton. I expected a doomsday apocalypse where survivors would be crowding the buildings trying to stop a tide of zombies. Instead, I got zombies hiding in the woods from survivors with headshot. How many zombie apocalypse movies have you seen where it is the zombies that have to hide?

I personally am holding out hope that Kevan will remove the headshot changes from Monroeville; the zombie playstyle revolves around sheer force of numbers and immortality.

Jim Swearingin

The critical flaw with Monroeville was that there was always a clear winner to me. Before Headshots became permanent, the clear winner (eventually) to me was the Zombie Horde, as they could only add to their ranks. After Headshot became a perma-death, as well as the boarder close, the general preference for survivor classes led to the extermination of the (unsurviving?) zombies, with PKers providing the only, short-lived additions to that race. With the recent re-opening of the borders, and more astonishingly, the revival of all of the previously de-skulled, the zombies have gotten a huge boost, and are once again on their way to total victory in Monroeville. That being said, the map is phenomenal.

Labine50

I didn't bother too much with Monroeville, but from what I saw, there wasn't much interest in being a zombie. To get the full experience, (Assuming you only have the one alt) you would have to start as a survivor as there would be no option to try it later. I don't think you can rightly criticize people for trying to get the most out of what was apparently a temporary game or losing interest in it when they would have to learn a new style of play.--Labine50 ^{MEMS | MHG} 23:37, 8 June 2008 (BST)

I wasn't judging those people, just explaining it as a game dynamic. If you started as a survivor and got killed without at least 100 XP stored up, abandoning the character was likely the best option; playing as a zombie without Vigour Mortis totally sucks. Unless you really, really wanted diagnoses, body building, and / or a flak jacket (or planned to save a lot of XP before death) it made more sense to just start as a zombie if that was what you wanted. But not many people did that, probably because (as you noted) the game was geared towards the survivor experience, what with the contest, advertising campaign, etc. I think those of us who did dedicate our energy to playing zombies did so largely out of a "well, there's GOT to be zombies" sort of mindset, and then made the best of it.  Swiers 23:55, 8 June 2008 (BST)

Morgan Blair

I really enjoyed Monroeville at the onset, and for the first month or so, the heightened tension of knowing that a single death would be the end of survival made me play with extreme caution. The tension really began to mount as radio broadcasts of malls and other buildings falling began to come in. And this is the point where the experience went awry. As survivors began to die off, the undead numbers should have increased accordingly. Had players actually continued playing their characters, by the time permanent death-via-headshot was implemented, the zombies should have far outnumbered the living, and I was anticipating even more excitement—either as a survivor: desperately trying to evade the horde while picking off stragglers from the fringe; or as a zed: either assaulting the last of survivor strongholds, or continually lurching through abandoned buildings in an increasingly difficult search to feed my never-ending hunger for the living. Unfortunately, because so few players chose to raise up from the dead once they ended that way, the zombie numbers never increased, and by the time headshot-death came about, they were already at a distinct disadvantage. I guess most people just couldn't accept the possibility of playing the scenario out, if it required them to play a part that they didn't initially chose. Whatever. --Morgan Blair 00:15, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Bullgod

The map was awesome, first of all. Way more interesting than the randomness of Malton. But as a hardcore no revive map the only people who will have fun are the PKers. I for one will not be playing zombie if i make another alt in MV, my PKer is still doing well and making a kill almost every day but all 3 of my zombies were hunted down inside of two weeks following the new rules. and that was hiding in the woods even. In my opinion the city needs NT buildings. thats all there is to it. get rid of the perma-death and the place would be way more fun than Malton. if not, then at least its fun for PKing. would be neat to see who the last one standing is.--Bullgod 06:28, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Jiangyingzi

Monroeville was an interesting case study of Urban Dead. Specifically, it underscored what I think of as UD's biggest problem: the average player's disinterest in actually playing as a zombie. I'd like to see Monroeville rebooted eventually, similar to before, with an eventual closing of the borders and no revives. However, zombie perma-death should never be added. Each Monroeville reboot could be timed, run for a few months perhaps, and a score system added to tally up the "winners" amongst the standing humans and the zombies at the end. Not quite sure how survivors would be scored -- it'd have to be something they couldn't farm -- but zombies would be scored on survivors killed (or more specifically, damage scored on standing humans with a bonus for a kill, similar to the XP system). Trick is, the points for each human slain would increase as the survivor population dwindled, both to keep zombie motivation high and to give zombie latecomers a fighting chance at a good ranking. Perhaps at the end the people with the best scores could get some UD merchandise or something. (There should not be an active scoreboard or leaderboard, though, because people might lose interest if they knew they weren't in the running.) But anyway, I'd like to see Monroeville rise again, but spiced up a bit. No perma-death for zombies is important, though: it is an essential trope in the zombie genre that you do not beat the undead via superior firepower. The human population diminishes while the undead only get stronger. This is a constant of the zombie genre everywhere except for Urban Dead.--Jiangyingzi 07:37, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Actually, in a couple of the Romero movies, its seems that the zombies DO get beat back with superior firepower. Witness the end of "Diary of the Dead", where redneck hunters are literally using zombies for target practice. So that may well have been an intended (or acceptable) result, even if not the most rewarding one, play wise.  Swiers 09:48, 9 June 2008 (BST)

I gave Diary a miss given the iffy reviews and all Romero's talk of "rejiggling the myth." Duly noted, but I do think the trope I mentioned stands in the vast majority of zombie films.--Jiangyingzi 19:43, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Except for Night of the Living Dead (human resistance beats the zombies easily after one unfomfortable night) and Shuan of the Dead (again, one night later, the army shows up and uses heavy firepower to suppress the horde).--Funt Solo ^QT 15:21, 12 June 2008 (BST)

In Night the zombies were only beaten briefly; as the sequels demonstrated, humanity was still overrun. Shaun, of course, is a comedy.--Jiangyingzi 18:31, 13 June 2008 (BST)

MichaelRead

Monroeville was gai as!--CyberRead240 10:34, 9 June 2008 (BST)

DanceDanceRevolution

The map was so much more interesting than Malton. Its size really had an impact on the feeling of traveling a long distance and its lack of meta-gaming scene (compared to the Malton equivalent) made it a much more daring place to run around. However, the lack of zombies took away what it was supposed to be, a zombie game. The huge amount of PKers that flourished as a result of lack of zombie threat and boredom with their character didn't ruin the game at all, but it changed it to something that often knocked out the Malton-friendly players from keeping an interest in maintaining a character in Monroeville.

Lets say Monroeville becomes permanent, scientist skills are introduced and the name of the city changes (so it doesn't seem like a sellout alternative) and it could be a huge winner. You could add a few more classes or class-exclusive skills, to set it apart from Malton and encourage kids to go back to Monroeville. It could work, or, like most of us, you could be resistant to the change and just want to stay with good old Malton, and its lovely wiki community. DanceDanceRevolution 11:11, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Duke Garland

New map is funny and entertaining experience - noone could deny it. But if to take out the initial excitement, there are problems. Initial balance? None of it. Malton rules just don't work for a new environment from the scratch. Easiness of closing doors vs getting enough xp for Memories of Life? Survivors and their... Oh, i don't even want to start it. The model is just wrong and there's no any leading course. The map was big enough to evade any fight anyway and i went that way. There was a video diary competition - now THAT is interesting and motivating and etc. Glad to be amongst winners. But what's left afterwards? Permaheadshot worked out well - no zombies to "fight". A lot of inactives to get rid of - that's at least something. What would be really cool is some extra goals with visible achievements. Some sort of mini-quests. "To survive the quarantine" and according badges in profile = too wide. Needs something on every-day scale. --~~~~ [talk] 13:55, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Honestmistake

As a few folk have already said, the map was so much better than Malton and the early days were very tense as survivors expected "visitors" at anytime and zeds felt as if we had a chance. Sadly there were just far too many survivors and once headshot became final it was all over within a few days. Personally I would like to see Monroe go on but with a few significant mechanics changes. A suitably feasome buff to infection such as only having a % chance to remove would swing things a little more in the zeds favour and removing the "axe n Fak" route to super-survivorhood would be great too (hell even just removing the XP for damaging a fellow survivor would work well as it would remove much of the problem caused by PKers). Most importantly though would be a change to the headshot kill mechanic, my favourite would be for it to drop "standing" HP by 5 each time with the perma kill only coming with the shot that would cause you to stand up on 0HP--Honestmistake 14:54, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Midianian

The map was awesome. Beats the uniform randomness of Malton any day. I didn't get to actually play much as I joined a couple of days before the borders were closed, was PKed at level three, and headshot a couple of days later. During that time, I think I saw maybe two zombies. Yeah. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 15:42, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Cyberbob

Piece of piss. There needed to be more incentives to start off as a zombie. In the end it became boring as batshit for everyone. --brb, church ^{DORIS CGR U!} 15:47, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Vandurn

I think a lot of people didn't get the concept of Monroeville, quite. It was not meant to be just a permadeath thing, it was supposed to be a promo and a contest. The permadeath was just a bonus. But people got too into it, malls were packed with hundreds of stagnating survivors with only a few zombies scattered around the city. There were places that had never seen a zombie weeks into the game. Cyberbob was right, there wasn't incentive enough to play as a zombie. That's why, when survivors died, they just abandoned the game. Fuck, I did. Monroeville was an experience of monotomy.--Vandurn 18:06, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Jen

My first acquaintance with Urban Dead was actually Monroeville. I created an account in Malton to check the place out, but, in comparison to Monroeville, Malton struck me as pretty darn boring. And far too easy, compared to a game of "if I die, my survivor life is over." I very much liked the threat of no revives, I loved the varied geography, and I liked the fact that it wasn't as established a place as Malton. It was a place where newer players and groups could truly carve out a place for themselves.

I honestly don't think it was the lack of desire to play a zombie that killed Monroeville. It was the headshot change. In a game where you only get one shot at survivor life per character...most people, including myself, are going to want to try the survivor side first. And as long as new accounts can be created, people will probably keep trying to succeed as survivor life again and again, even if they play an active zombie as well.

Closing the borders, however, would have changed this. Now, if you wanted to keep playing the map at ALL, you'd have to do it as a zombie. Sure, some people would have abandoned the game after dying, but I'm sure that a good number would have also said "well...playing as zombie is better than not playing at all. BARHAH!" And would have headed off to join or form a horde. I would have. And like several people above me, I fully expected the endgame to involve ever-growing hordes of zombies, tracking down an ever-dwindling number of survivors -- and was gleefully looking forward to this.

But when standing up as a zombie = death sentence, OF COURSE no one is going to want to be a zombie. And even if they want to be a zombie, they aren't going to last long. Headshot broke the game, and turned what could have been an incredible doomsday scenario into a perverse inversion of the zombie genre. --Jen 18:42, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Experiment211

Like most other I think the Monroeville map is far better than the classic Malton map. But I was a bit disapointed about the lack of new features. While the hiding-in-the-wood-thing was cool, I think Monroeville could have been a good chance to test some more features like new skills and items without beeing to afraid to screw the balance even more and ruin the game. But in the end I think Monroeville showed what is wrong with Malton. Playing a zombie isn't very appealing for most people for diverse reasons. The only reason the game works in Malton is beacause of the dedicated people and groups that organize the zombies despite their apparent lack of attractivity.

Perma death and the diaries didn't helped the situation. Why should someone start as zombie in Monroeville? No diary, no special feature and death will come anyway. But like in Malton few people decided to continue to play the game once they were undead. If you hadn't saved some xp(or bought bb) you were better off to make a new character anyway. And if you already are in the process of making a new character you could also make a new survivor and hunt for the diaries again.

I must admit, first I thought that the zombies would prevail in Monroville but even bevore the headshot update with "highly mortal" survivors and "unstopable" undead it was far from the truth. Just because most people didn't care to play as a zombie or to organzie them.--Experiment211 19:08, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Funt Solo

I tried starting out two characters as zombies and two as survivors, but both were frustrating to play: the zombies being the worst. If I'd been thinking about a long-term gameplan, I wouldn't have started any zombie characters, because of the crossover items and skills, such as the flak jacket. There simply is no point in becoming a zombie first (with no revivication) because you'll have no access to vital crossover items such as those. And once you're killed as a survivor, it's hell being a zombie with no XP, because of the lack of Lurching Gait, meaning it's a horribly slow 2AP/square experience. The (scientist) survivors were frustrating, because their best bet was healing with FAKs - but everyone had that idea - I was spending 49AP just looking for someone who was wounded, given that everyone seemed to be a survivor, and they were all healing each other. At that point, you turn to punching survivors to wound them, and that's not in-keeping with the roleplay aspect, so the game's a bogie. Eventually, I just stopped playing because it seemed pointless. I liked the hiding in woods thing: my lurker zombie had some fun in there. Summary: to play a powered-up zombie, it makes most sense to harvest all your XP as a survivor, then commit suicide. Therefore, there's a clear gameplay imbalance in the early game, and Monroeville was all about the early game. --Funt Solo ^QT 20:00, 9 June 2008 (BST)

Axe Hack

Monroeville, Monroeville, Monroeville...I don't really have much to say. But it wasn't really all that great. Sure, I managed to level up and stuff, but there just wasn't enough zombies to shot at (seeing that I started as a Cop...), so pretty much, I gave up after a month of not even advancing further than level 2. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 20:05, 9 June 2008 (BST)

User:Karek

It was fun before the headshot update, that update killed what was fun and interesting about the game in Monroeville, no more fear of death(one of the worst things in Malton now and why I basically abandoned all of my Malton alts in favor on Monroeville when it came out), no more worrying about keeping survivors at full HP and zombies out, no more moving around, it basically became Malton without zombies being able to compete at all because they'd stand and be killed for a pittance of AP(6-10).--Karek^maps?! 21:23, 9 June 2008 (BST)

User:Whitehouse

It was fun, I played a survivor most of the time. It was great fun with the new map, and its design was fantastic. The fear was fun too, permanent zombiedom certainly made me play safe, and I was looking forward to a "last survivor standing" end of the game. That might have been a bit of a hunt for the zombies, and maybe a bit boring for them, but far better than what the headshot update did. The headshot update ruined it for me. I bought headshot and began killing them in the streets, I was no longer scared because I could fight back. Well, I was scared, but my fear shifted to the fear of being murdered by my fellow survivors rather than being killed by the zombies. Instead I felt sorry for the zombies because I was taking away peoples last chance of fighting in Monroeville. So eventually my fears came to pass, I was murdered. I had saved loads of XP, enough to buy the skills I needed to be a fully functional combat zombie. So I stand up, and as I am attacking some cades, a survivor pops out, begins shooting at me. Stupidly I fight back and bam! I'm dead with a headshot. That really showed me just how bad Monroeville was. So yeah, no headshot update would have made Monroeville perfect in my opinion. - User:Whitehouse 23:31, 9 June 2008 (BST)

I'd like to add that if the zombies had been allowed to continue and be a big threat, murder would have been less common. And as a result, survivors would be happier. As it is, Monroeville became murderers paradise. Zombies can try, but wont last long. - User:Whitehouse 23:34, 9 June 2008 (BST)

User:A Helpful Little Gnome

I started out as a survivor because I knew that I would probably become a zombie anyway and I wanted to record stuffs with my video camera. I explored a lot, travelled down to Newtown where it was very boring. I managed to find a grand total of 2 zombies in my travels which I used to punch for xp. After the zombies left, I punch healed a couple of levels, then grew bored. A few weeks of inactivity followed before I logged in to find myself murdered. I had no xp, and of course, no zombie skills. I was completely alone, so I decided to run and find a hiding spot until I could figure out if there were *any* zombie hordes. I chose to hide in the woods, unfortunately I found myself headshot less then a day latter.

In all, Monroeville wasn't all that fun, partly due to my own lack of interest past the initial excitement and partly due the headshot change. As I suspected in the beginning, PKers were more dangerous for survivors then zombies (for me at least), which isn't all that great seeing that death wasn't reversable and the general lack of things you can do against PKers in this situation. On the plus side, I thought the new squares, particularily the woods, roads and open spaces, are awesome. Like what was said above, the "one life" feeling kept me going for a while until I figured how easy it was.--  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 23:47, 9 June 2008 (BST)

TheUncleBob

I *loved* Monroeville. The layout was pretty awesome and I'm glad I had a chance to explore a lot of it before getting killed. As others have said, the Zombies were never any real threat, it was all PKers. I'd suggest some kind of change as follows: 1.) Monroeville resets. All players can pick Zombie or Survivor. All players are level 0.

2.) Survivors who damage/kill Zombies get some kind of "spiff" points. Zombies who damage/kill Survivors get the same "spiff" points. Survivors who damage/kill humans (or Zombies who damage/kill other Zombies) will not receive the "spiff" for the damage/kill.

3.) Players who start the round as a Zombie will get some bonus "spiff" points to encourage some players to start as Zombies. The first players who sign up as Zombies could get crazy amount of spiff points and then the bonus would decrease as more Zombie players sign up.

4.) At some pre-determined time, the city would reset again. All character stats would reset to zero - except for the "Spiff" points. At this point - only during the character registration - the player can redeem their earned "spiff" points for EX or items to start out with. Bonus Spiff points can be awarded to players who survive the round as well.

This would give even survivor-biased players a reason to play as a zombie and kill humans - as they'd be able to start the next round with some built up stats. TheUncleBob 03:15, 10 June 2008 (BST)

This suggestion gets Jinxy's seal of approval. It has the potential to add a whole new dynamic to the game, and gives zombies something to do other than stand up and die. Which, by the way, was a horrid change towards the zombie side of things (Headshot perma-death). The point of a game is that it is not supposed to completely end; Your supposed to get a chance at an extra life, a few seconds to insert another quarter, a checkpoint from which you can go. Jinxy 02:28, 16 June 2008 (BST)

Thanks for the vote of confidence. ;) TheUncleBob 18:47, 29 June 2008 (BST)

User:Co fragment

The City: I loved the feel of the place, far more sprawling, random and realistic than Malton (and no doubt over the nationality!). The mix of locations - city, woods, farmland, university, etc gave it a unique feel.

Gameplay: Honestly, I don't think I've been as obsessed with Urban Dead as much before or after that first month of Monroeville. Logging on that first morning to find a whole new city to explore like some kind of well-kept secret was incredibly exciting and that feeling of pioneering kept strong for the first few weeks until finally a complete map was assembled, but still that just meant there were new intruiging places to explore you hadn't been yet. The limited lifespan of Monroeville helped make it feel special too. Running around the city like a crazy person looking for clips (or clues) felt like a different apocalypse experience to Malton, even with the minimal zombie activity of the first few days. Like a few others I'd imagine, I was looking up the real Monroeville online and on maps in hopes of hints. As a survivor the threat of imminent death loomed the entire time and 'meant' something, even logging on each time you'd wonder if you'd been killed. In the rush to find clips there were numerous times I got caught out and was stuck on the street or just ducked into an open building with zero AP and had sickening waits for more. I felt more attached to my MV characters by far because of their mortality. Once my primary character got PK'd I was seriously pissed off, but in the end thought 'hey, the apocalypse always includes these sad, snapped individuals, lets go eat someone brains.' In the end I would have loved the clips to add up to some kind of cause of the outbreak, a solution to infections or some kind of conspiracy. You can't expect everything though.

Gripes: To echo everyone else I'd say permanent headshot changed the game to seriously survivor orientated.Whether my hopes of infection being incuarble would have tilted the odds back to the middle I don't know, but it would have helped. In the early days prior to perma-headshot I thought it'd have to end up a zombie take-over, I didn't think it'd end up a last man standing PK-fest. Silly me.

Suggestions: Most suggestions on here are looking at long-term fixes, which is fine, but we already have Malton in that state. How about making Monroeville a limited play experience and change it every few months? Try a few different scenarios and shake up the rules each time - we've seen Perma-headshot makes Monroeville too PK-happy. How about one of the following?

• The original set up - perma-survivor death and no headshots.
• Infections incurable - leading people into a slow decent to zombie-hood (FAKs to restore HP but not cure?) - leading to situations where if someone is infected do you struggle to keep them alive or just put them out of their misery and stay safe?
• Take back Monroeville - Survivors spawn in Newtown and Oak Hill (All buildings VSB+2 and powered) / Zombies spawn in Monroeville (All buildings ruined and dark).
• One hospital allows production of FAKs that cure infections.

I'm sure others could think up more (and better) ideas in this vein.--Co fragment 10:33, 10 June 2008 (BST)

ActingUpAgain

I'm loving Monroeville! Much closer to a zombie apocolypse than Malton is - but I understand the need to keep Malton balanced, so having the separate city is perfect. Honestly I never expected it to go on as long as it has - I thought once the movie was promoted, it would be retired. If Kevan and crew are entertaining the thought of doing more with Monroeville, I'm on board.

My experiences - I started with one survivor and one zombie. The survivor did very well, but was eaten one day. Starting over was a pain, but he eventually got on his feet a bit. The zombie I started with at the beginning had a field day once he learned how to open doors before the survivors got wise and started barricading - then it was a bit more challenging. Both were headshoted the day after that addition, and I was a sad panda. I started a third character in the final open days, and had a great run with him. After the zombies disappeared, he started PKing first level players that stopped logging in to get his experience up. Looks like as of last night, I PKed in front of the wrong person, and he exacted revenge. This time, I had the foresight to stock up on XP, and bought a few essentials. Last I left him, he was chowing down in a room full of survivors without headshot skills (although I fully expect him to be perma-dead soon, sadly).

Suggestions - A lot of great points were brought up before me. Since I want more "Monroevilles", here are my ideas should there be a restart:

• Same scenario as it was orignially (no Necrotech, no headshot perma-kill)
• Only allow registration for a month, then close borders
• When a survivor is killed, give them one skill of their choice to have free once they rise
• Here's the big idea - When the survivor/zombie ratio becomes 20/80, THEN allow the headshot perma-kill. At the same time, offer a contest for the last standing survivor, and make the prize something valuable. The survivors have something keeping them interested, and the zombies will have fun robbing others of the prize (at least I would).

There's my two pennies.--Actingupagain 16:11, 10 June 2008 (BST)

Deleted a stupid suggestion of mine above, but adding these suggestions:

• For every person that starts a survivor during that registration month, allow them to start a zombie as well. Limit the number of characters one can start to 2 survivors and 2 zombies. Here's the kicker - during that registration month (and only then), zombies function as a paying customer; in other words, no IP limitations.
• Once perma-kill is re-implemented (due to reaching that 20/80 ratio I mentioned before), do not allow PKing. I know this will piss off a lot of people (heck, I enjoyed the PKing I did), but make it a true survivor vs. zombie game. You can allow PKing again if the ratio goes back to 50/50, but make the survivors work together to achieve it. Then the game can flip back and forth until there is a winning faction.--Actingupagain 21:54, 16 June 2008 (BST)

ZCC Frontal Lobe

Ah, Monroeville, my greatest hope for Urban Dead and by far my greatest disappointment. What was offered was simultaneously a zombie paradise and a survivor’s hell and I wanted both. Because of the one time death rule, it made only sense to make my characters survivors and keep them going until either I was bored (and they had enough experience to make diving out a window worthwhile) or natural selection blew it’s whistle and ordered them out of the gene pool. I made my pre-requisite three alts and was off on what promised to be the most fun I could have in this game in a very long time.

Initially, it was great. I was afraid of death again! I was actually proud of playing a survivor and enjoying it as opposed to being ashamed and bored. The map was undiscovered and much better designed then the hodgepodge of Malton. My doctor had a steady stream of patients to treat and even though the zombie population was low my fireman and private were managing to find enough to get by on. I fought for my XP and enjoyed the adrenalin rush for now; safe and secure in the knowledge that one day I would die and join the slow rising tide of Monroevilles zombie population. Maybe I’d take part in a mall siege; maybe I’d just wander around and fill in my map. It didn’t matter; I’d have time to do all those things when I was dead. My fireman died first, zombies broke in and took him down, but I’d been saving up my XP for my eventual undeath so it wasn’t really a hardship. Playing a zombie wasn’t easy, but it was rewarding and I was keeping an ear out for the groans of a zombie horde to join and slowly filling in my map in a way my survivor characters couldn’t. I didn’t think much about when there was a quarantine shut down warning. I was content to play my three characters, dead or alive. It meant there would be less free experience for my zed and it meant the doomsday clock would begin for my survivors. The end of Monroeville in a zombie holocaust was something I was looking forward to, I’d realize a year or so back that in Malton it simply can’t ever happen and when that sunk in I’d let my zombies idle out there. Here zombies were being given the option, nay the very promise, of an eventual zombie victory! I was envisioning some kind of Urban Dead utopia arising from all of this, where perma-survivors would have finally risen up and joined the horde and where the hardcore zombies had to give it up to Monroeville survivors because, man… they had it rough.

When I read the news on the 28th, I was furious.

I have played survivors, I have played zombies, I am under no delusions which has group has more power. The only reasons why there are any zombies left at all in Malton is because of the hardcore zombie players who refuse life and the fact that death means a loss of AP and nothing else. Headshot perma-death was the stupidest thing one could have implemented in Urban Dead and to this day the only way I can make myself believe Kevan wasn’t suffering from a hemorrhaging frontal lobe is by assuming he was tired of it and wanted Monroeville to end. Everything about a zombie is geared towards survival in the open, from the reduced ability to move to the feeding groan which can and will attract survivors to a feeding site. Ransack is useless in a situation like this as it simply alerts headshotters to the presence of a high level zombie in the area. Even having a group name would be stupid as it would allow any pro-life zombies to scent death and zero in on your location. Zombies don’t get barricades and even the modicum of cover provided by the forests in Monroeville only costs organized zombie hunters a few measly extra AP before the blab your location over the radio. Zombies need to be able to gather in groups to take down barricades to even have a chance at killing survivors, perma-death means they can’t gather, cannot kill, and are just walking targets.

I wasn’t the monster after the 28th, the survivors were. Survivors had 3 days to dump alt after alt onto the map, zombies received no such warning; they just died. My lone zed ran, afraid for its unlife. I chewed on the idles who suddenly popped up on the streets as an after thought, but then PKers and headshotters removed all of those (for fun or to starve out the remaining zombies) and there was nothing left to kill. I endured, hiding in the woods, too far from any buildings to hunt survivors, listening to my radio give fewer and fewer zombie alerts until 28.01 went off the air entirely. My survivors didn’t fare a lot better, there was nothing to hunt, nothing to gain XP from except Axe-FAK’s and reading books. A malaise had settled over the city and except for the guttural spoutings of gung-ho trenchies, drunk on testosterone and enamored of the fact that they could now achieve the ultimate grief, no one really talked any more.

I finally wound up turning over the zed and the private to a friend because they were too boring to play. I check in on the doctor every once in a while just to listen to the craziness that is 28.02 but that’s it, the game is over for me. I’m just biding time till some PKer comes and ends me and I can listen to my radio from the peace and quiet of the grave.

All I can say is that it didn’t have to be this way. If Monroeville opens its gates again, I’m unlikely to build new characters even if headshot was repealed. Kevan either wanted the city dead the first time or was naïve enough to believe that survivor/zed balance was actually close to equal. Neither of those options makes me feel that Monroeville or any similar project has any kind of real future. ZCC Frontal Lobe 14:42, 10 June 2008 (PST)

Grant

I only ever made one character - a zombie. Was annoyed by the continual pro-survivor ruleset, but felt it was basically made up for by not ever dying, until headshot rolled around. Made daily highly organized strikes (using an IRC chatroom) with several other members of Walk the Earth before hiding in the woods several blocks away from our target, but everyone was either headshot or stopped standing up within a week or so, if I recall.

Even before perma-headshot, I don't recall zombies being too numerous. I saw very few standing zombies, and was almost always axed or shot soon after logging out.

Since then I've slowly grown bitter at just how dumb it all was/is. I felt a little dumb at not having gone the PK route. Meanwhile, without The Dead around, Malton has quickly bounced back up to about the 2/3 survivor ratio it was before they were around. I imagine it's about 10-15% zombie hardcore, 5-10% dual natured, and 10-20% mrh-cows.

The whole thing has convinced me of just how screwed the zombies are, and how much better off you are as a PKer than a zombie. I have been thinking about quitting UD, but was curious enough about the state of the game to check the Wiki tonight. Grant (talk) 10:20, 11 June 2008 (BST)

Rogue

I started out as a survivor pretty late in the game, still I enjoyed the fear when radio reports would come in of buildings going down. I thought it would be more interesting if fighting off impossible odds of a horde until falling, like in the movies.

What I didn't expect was some cocky PKer showing up and capping me. Kind of ruined it for me. --Rogue 20:06, 11 June 2008 (BST)

Secruss

The zombie minority got nerfed. We all registered as survivors (or PKers, as I started out. I got killed by a fellow PKer, though) waiting for the zombies to take us. I was looking forward to playing as a zombie and struggling against the human hordes for the next few months, after I got shot. Then, we're all wiped out in a few days. I was headshot 48 hours after headshot became "Permadeath" to zombies. It wasn't a zombie apocolypse, it was a genocide. ----Secruss^|Yak|Brahnz!|CGR|PKA||EMLN|Templates|RRF|RFTM|Crap|WHOZ||MU|GN|C2008||21:28, 11 June 2008 (BST)

Toejam

I liked:

• the feeling of significant new content
• watching the progress of the unofficial maps
• everyone being at level one again
• planning my route up the skill tree
• the video diary competition

I made two characters, one consumer who did the video diary competition, and one fireman who rushed towards Construction and barricade strafed. The fireman was PKed and he stayed a corpse - if he stands up now he'll be headshot, so he's waiting for a more favourable zombie/survivor ratio. I think knowing that you were safer if you stayed down discouraged people from rising as zombies, and that meant the hordes weren't as strong as they could have been - what was good for the individual was bad for the collective.

I expected Monroeville to inevitably fall to the zombies, and even when headshot kills were introduced, it still seemed to me the game could have went either way.

I'm slowly fading out of Monroeville; now, I add people in the same room as me to my contacts list so I can find out if they're still playing.

I'm sure there's interesting social experiments you can do in Monroeville. Everyone is vulnerable to everyone else, and that's bound to affect relations between people. --Toejam 18:00, 12 June 2008 (BST)

why on earth didn't you make a zed character as well? let me guess - you play 4 survivor characters in malton? every survivor should have at least 1 zed in the game, to help keep the ratio even. dick. Sanpedro 06:16, 13 June 2008 (BST)

You're jumping to false conclusions and then calling me names based off those conclusions. I play a single character in Malton who for much of his life was dual-nature. --Toejam 17:01, 13 June 2008 (BST)

Clanomadd

In my opinion, what would fix Monroeville to be an interesting and realistic game would be the following:

• Make infection permanent (no FAK cure), this would balance permanent headshot. Each FAK applied would have diminishing effects until you died.
• Take away ALL experience gain for human-human or zombie-zombie combat (or introduce multiple account abuse measures on anyone who attempts to attack the same side).
• Allow all current headshot corpses one more standup - --Clanomadd 20:33, 12 June 2008 (GMT)

Z. slay3r

Contrary to my name, I started with a zombie character in Southern Monroeville. In the beginning, I found it extremely difficult to gain experience from killing survivors due to the absence of Memories of Life. All survivors had to do was close the doors for 1 AP, and it made it impossible for zombies to enter the building. It was extremely hard for me, because the only buildings I could enter were the churches and junkyards, while the survivors could gain experience from killing zombies, and be completely safe (from zombies) as long as they didn't stay in junkyard, churches, or out in the open. I also started far away from any hordes, and barely saw any other zombies outside during my experience. It eventually frustrated me to the point that I quit the Monroeville map. I did like the new map layout, however. --ZsL 20:43, 12 June 2008 (BST)

Nitro378

My biggest problem with Monroeville was that PKing was far too devastating and easy to pull off. It would be an understatement to say that Pking was responsible for easily twice as many deaths as zombies, especially after the headshot update. If a "hardcore" map is implemented again something has to be done to curb its effects and increase the threat of zombie attacks. I would suggest Pking not resulting in zombification? I dont really know honestly, but something needs to be done about it. --Nitro378 ^{T JNL} 21:05, 12 June 2008 (BST)

But then the question is what would PKing result in? The survivor has been killed, but from a logical standpoint, it seems wrong that being shot/axed/knifed would result diffently than being bit or scratched as I see it. After being shot to death, you would be quite clearly dead, and the method of death is rather moot from then. I agree with most people here that the answer lies somewhere with the Zombie Hunter's headshot being 'fixed' somehow. I Am Sabbo 03:35, 13 June 2008 (BST)

Jelly Otter

I may be one of the few but I enjoyed Monroeville. I made my first PKer ever, and I really had fun seeing how many people I could clear from a building, and it was cool sneaking around trying to not get caught. I wish there were more zombies but I saw myself as helping create more zombies for everyone to have fun with. I also really enjoyed the diverse map is was way cool. I think it would have been great if headshot didn't take the zombies out and they slowly became more and more massive. I'll be sad if my alts get knocked back down to lvl. 1 or go away because I put a lot of work into them. I hope if Monroeville does go away, I could move my alts to Malton to play them there.-- Jelly Otter 05:36, 13 June 2008 (BST)

Gus Thomas

I enjoyed the diverse map and shere scale, the map is massive! I think the BOOM headshot, you are gone now update was a bit much, and agree with Jelly that Zombies should just get more and more massive. My zombie alt there, GusIsDead, took a headshot before the update that made it permanent kill. Due to the low/nonexsistence of zombies, he has been happily dirtnapping the rest of the game away. If Kevan reversed that update I would defnitly play more. With the gates open again I am considering making a PKer alt to help keep Zombie numbers present.

Yeah, but don't you think it's a little bit strange that if you want to help the zombies you have to be a PKer? - Grant (talk) 10:49, 13 June 2008 (BST)

David Suzuki 12:39, 13 June 2008 (BST)

I liked the map, with distinct sections. Much of what I think has been said already; not enough reason to play zombies is the main one, and perma-headshot was a disaster from a zombie standpoint (well, everyone but PKers). I don't like how strong PKing is in the game either; sensible play to avoid zombies actually makes it easier for PKers, and boy, is it easy to be a PKer. I ran one dedicated zombie who was roaringly successful until the headshot change, after which he avoided dying at all for 2 weeks then was permakilled when he finally retreated to the woods. My other two ended up as PKers, and both were killed by alts of his victims (yeah, that stung), whereupon they were headshot on standing. My proposed tweaks to make things more interesting:

• Human-human attacks are halved. In the atmosphere of paranoia in a zombie apocalypse, people would be especially on their guard against any kind of danger, so attacking them is harder. This lessens PKing (but by no means rules it out; a PKer could still easy kill someone in a day, it just means their attacks are on a level with zombie attacks, damage per AP wise).
• Incurable infection. FAKs work the same, but once you're bitten, you stay infected.
• Something fun for zombies that's new (like cameras for people in the first iteration)
• A dead survivor is credited XP for each survivor skill they have when they die, to spend on zombie skills. Somewhere between 20-50XP per skill would be OK. That way, there would be some motivation to keep playing a survivor once killed, because you wouldn't be a useless nub with no prospect of any fun times for a week or more when you actually get some skills.
• No perma-headshot. Maybe a buffed AP drain, or temporary incapacitation.

Queen Mum

Having played both sides of the fence in Monroeville (as a human alongside out of game friends, as a second zombie character on my lonesome), I have to agree that perma-Headshot being repealed is a good idea. Leveling up again was interesting, though dammed difficult, given the lack of zombies. Still, it made for interesting play and interesting RP. The map was, as stated, excellent.

Now, the whole PKer debate has gone round and round for Malton for ages. I agree you're going to get some people who snap and murder in a quarantined zombie apocalypse, but the fact that it was PKers who killed all four of us in the end, that just well... sucked. Had it been zombies, I think I would have been okay with it, given the scenario. The PKer's argument that there's no real consequence, etc. doesn't fly without revives. It just pretty much ends the game as a survivor. How to fix it? Good question. Since I know that human on human XP is halved in Monroeville as in Malton, that's a start, but I would make it harder still. With the perma-headshot and no idling, it's been demonstrated that some game mechanics are not inextricably linked between the two cities.

Playing a zombie in Monroeville was a kick - AT FIRST. It was hard, but the extra XP from cade bashing helped, plus the odd street snack. I was enjoying messing with people's heads, going for groan and ransack early on. Then. BAM. No more game. After my survivor was killed, it was start over as a zombie until BAM. No more game.

In short, I like the idea, but the PKing wrecks it for me as a survivor, headshot wrecked it for me as a zombie. Uncle Bob's suggestions have some merit, if it were a constantly resetting and timed system and frequent players could get some buffs for their previous lives (although, RP wise, do we think of the resetting server as "Groundhog Day" or some special Chinese hell?) --Queen Mum 21:40, 13 June 2008 (BST)

Moyes

Firstly, I'd like to say that I thought that Monroeville was an excellent map; huge, and with far more flavour than Malton. The sheer diversity of city and country landscapes would have kept me coming back for months on end.

Until....

The introduction of permadeath. Within days the zombies numbers disappeared to nothing more than than a passing curiosity. I made four characters for Monroeville, all survivors but with the plan on playing as a zombie if I was killed by one. I lost one character to a zombie, whilst trying to find out how good woods were as cover. I stood up, looked for some survivors to feast on, and was headshot within 24 hours.

My other survivors? Two were killed by PKers. Monroeville makes PKing even easier than it is in Malton; its sheer size makes it almost impossible to track down those who choose to play this way, and at this point it makes no sense to start new survivors. I could, I suppose, make numerous alts to flood Monroeville to find those that PKed my last charcters and hunt them down, but I actually want to play humans against zombies instead of humans vs humans, so see no point in playing whilst PKing is so easy and death is so...well, permanent!

My suggestion would be to actually bar the ability to PK in Monroeville altogether; let those who want to play that way stick to Malton; but in the same instance do not make death permanent to zombies. That way, zombie numbers will flourish, and the Undead will get more and more powerful until finally you get a true zombie apocalypse; not just a PKing free for all. Moyes^{T RPM} 19:18, 15 June 2008 (BST)

Murray Jay Suskind

A lot of comments echo what other people have said, but I'd like to think that my thoughts make a semi-coherent whole, so I might as well put forth what I think.

1. There was a very hard imbalance when there was no perma-headshot in favor of the zombies, and an equally hard one in favor of the survivors once it was put into place. I think it'd be more effective if each character was reset (level zero, random spawning point, original character class) when headshot as a zombie. That way there isn't a long-term dearth of zombies like there was between perma-headshot and the re-opening of the city, and it'd give an incentive for survivors to play as a zombie instead of just creating a new survivor since their original character would eventually get reset anyway. That way zombies aren't overpowered (still subject to a very powerful headshot), and survivors still have hope once they die (their character may eventually get reset as a survivor).

2. If perma-headshot (or character reset headshot) is reintroduced, then I think a character needs to reach a higher level to get it. Basically as soon as a survivor reaches level 10, they're a killing machine. If the barrier to entrance is set at something like level 12 or level 15 then a smart survivor could still live long enough to get headshot without making it so easy that zombies are just slaughtered within a week like they were last time.

3. I think Monroeville could be an effective beta-testing ground for game changes in Malton. However, the potential for perma-death / perma-zombiehood could skew results. Essentially, the dynamics of game balance are very different in Monroeville. If the beta-testing route is chosen, then it should be clearly established as such, so players understand that there might be some temporarily messed-up dynamics while the changes are being tested. It may also be a good idea to do a full reset of Monroeville if there's a beta test that's particularly overpowered for one side.

4. There are some skills for Monroeville that are completely useless (like Brain Rot or the NT skills). If it's going to be a permanent map and/or a non-beta test map, then it might be interesting to get rid of those skills and introduce some new ones that are unique to Monroeville. Perhaps something that will allow a survivor or zombie to have a 50% chance of hiding in an area at a cost of 10ap. Perhaps something like in Shawn of the Dead when he blended in with the zombies while still alive. Those are just random brainstorms, but if properly implemented they could improve the Monroeville game dynamics and make the city even more unique.

5. Zombies should have chainsaw hands.

That's it for now. If I think of anything else, or if anyone has a really good rebuttal (except to 5, that one's flawless), I'll add to/change things below. -- Murray Jay Suskind 17:01, 16 June 2008 (BST)

Daeryon

As said before:

1. The map was awesome.

2. The thrill of one life per character I feel added to game excitement.

3. There were 3 primary problems: A. Half the players seemed to NOT play a zombie when they were killed. This is a very Maltonesque attitude brought to Monroeville. I'm not sure how you stop this though..I know a few people who when they died just stopped playing rather than play a zombie. B. The headshots to the zombies were too easy. Changing headshot from auto-at-level-10 to maybe like a 10% chance per kill after the skill is acquired would probably help this problem greatly. C. PKers. While I don't think anything should be done to stifle them (it would be a reality in any chaotic situation), there should be perhaps some way to defend yourself against them. PKing would be less of a problem if the PKers stood a chance that the armed man with 4 shotguns could shoot back, or his comrades in the same building with him could shoot back. Not sure how to fix this gam mechanics wise, my best suggestion would be some sort of "auto-defense" skill, where your character can retaliate if attacked.

William Reese

Hi, i am pretty new around here. This game looks like fun so i gave it a shot. Some things i noticed:

If you plan to play a zombie, and the wiki tells you to start out as a survivor to get skills like diagnose and bodybuilding first wich are useful as a zombie but only earnable as humane. Its no wonder there are not much zombies, because even players planning to play on that side start out as survivors first. I think zombies should have acces to those skills without starting out as a survivor (or better: their own skills).

Also, on a second thought about permadeath for zombies - it has been been removed because obviously zombies can not stand up to the survivors. Also there seem to be fewer zombie players. We want a zombie apocalypse, right? So we need zombies. Lots of zombies. If you have lots of survivors and practically put zombies at extinction the result will be the opposite. And thats not the enviroment we want, right?

I thougth a lot about permanent character death for zombies. First we can rule out permadeath for both factions, because even if balanced if the survivors get the upper hand we all feel something is very wrong here.

But being immortal really takes the challenge out of the game.

Monroeville is achiving the right "feel" at the moment because because zombies can not be killed, they are ultimately ever-present the menace. Opposed by survivors wich can not be revived. But of course no one is holding back newly created survivor characters AS LONG AS THE QUARANTINE IS LIFTED.

Lets imagine registrations get closed again... the zombies would take over and add to their ranks slowly the entire base till no human is left. There are no sprynges (and in my opinion there should be none, zombies should add to their ranks, not survivors). This is one "fitting" approach. It gets the picture right.

However it makes playing a zombie not exactly "challenging". Nothing can really hurt you, so the survivor experience is pretty imense but the zombies just get the game mechanics running. Unfortunately this seems neccesary at the moment.

This coupled with the skills you only can achive as human its no big surprise that there are lots of survivors. I for example like to play a zombie but i started out as survivor to get the skills. Also a survivor gets his unlife if killed. A zombie under permadeath rule gets nothing. Its not too surprising there is a lack of zombies. Of course i am not leaping out of the next window (and if sprynges are out this should be out too if you ask me, if you want Dual Nature make it a rule). I will try to see how far i get.

Pure zombies get Vigor Mortis (and for new Zombies wich got killed early the lack of the skill is a serious drawback), but its really nothing you can not pick up along the way and is not enough to make a "pure" zombie character a viable choice.

My suggestion:

1. No sprynges (yes, i am serious and its important for all latter points).

2. No leaping. They can still get themselves killed of course but at least somebody will have a warm meal.

3. Buff the freshly risen, Vigor Mortis for anyone might be a good idea. If that happens a "pure" zombie needs another goodie though. I suggest "Second Rise", an extra life for the pure zombie careers to offset the one they are missing. It would also add to the zombie threat - wich we need badly.

4. All zombie improving skills should be achivable as a zombie to encourage "pure" zombie careers - those are the ones you need to get the game going.

5. Quarantine is good, its the mechanic we should focus on because it has the potential to change the playingfield - therefore i suggest to impose quarantine only on SURVIVORS - limiting their number whilst creating a zombie should always be possible, ensuring a ever growing supply of zombies. And survivors could be actively limited. Thats the way to go.

6. And suggestion 5 allows us to reintroduce permadeath for zombies (and of course survivors, efectively bleeding their numbers dry - thats the scenario we want). This would make playing a zombie challenging and not just mindless zerging. But i agree killing a zombie should be difficult, so lets make it not too easy. For starters freshly risen should be at least as tough as bodybuilders, exceeding human limits latter. Zombies are supposed to be a tough unstoppable force. And please no headshots. Let those HP not just be there for looks alone. Make em count.

7. To encourage people participating as zombies with COMMITMENT i would tie the zombie factor to the lifting oft the quarantine. The more players play seriously zombie, the fewer survivors will be left, the sooner the quarantine can be lifted to fill up human ranks (maybe starting a new map/round?).

8. Survival has to become more difficult. We have the disease, good for starters. How about handicapping injuries? The need to have acces to food and water supplies? Some nice random events (example: a part of the building crashed, you are buried benath the rubble, you can not move for x minutes, desperately struggling to free yourself)? It would add to gameplay depth. Of course there hould be some good events too and the zombies should also get their share.

Yep, its going to be one hell of a meatgrinder. But that is what we want, right? The survivors want a hostile enviroment and the zombies want a majority representation. It could be done that way, even if this might not be the only solution.