UDWiki talk:Administration/Policy Discussion/Homophobia as Vandalism

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Please discuss your thoughts on this policy before voting takes place, and please add your thoughts as to what the scope of the policy should cover. For my own two cents, though, this policy has been sorely needed for a long time, as the double standard in what is and isn't vandalism hate speech is ridiculous. We're coming to get you, Barbara 01:50, 22 May 2010 (BST)

Glad to see someone finally suggested a policy of this nature. -Poodle of DoomM! Fear is only as deep as the mind will allow it be.T 02:52, 22 May 2010 (BST)
You've got my vote. I don't know if maybe the wording of the policy needs to be changed a little bit, but the sentiment is good for me.--GANG Giles Sednik CAPD 03:10, 22 May 2010 (BST)

At this point I'm against this. Why is this necessary? To what level should it be implemented? Will I get escalated for calling someone a faggot or retard, in the same way I would call them, an idiot or a dipshit? Even in the case of the word "faggot" in the way Sonny uses it, even as a past target of this homophobic rant (1) never have I considered it offensive or even vandalistic. And even so, it's just obvious he's just fishing for any sort of reaction, and this policy is exactly the sort of stuff that would make him feel accomplished. It's been a long-term saying on the wiki that "this is the internet and if you can't handle what is said here then you're best off leaving the computer forever".

Seeing as how the "racism" clause of the TOU was only ever implemented as vandalism because wiki lawyers wanted to rid of certain users, I find it hard to believe that this policy, in this state, would make anything more clear-cut and will a) turn the wiki into a verbal pussyfest and b) create a huge amount of conflict of interests from the sysop team as wikilawyers will literally POUNCE on anything slightly offensive to any demographic, as long as it was said by someone they don't like. This has already happened recently with WOOT vs Misanthropy, straight after we got someone else for vandalism and the backlash was a pain in the arse and only excusable because Sonny was a known/failing troll (that's how I deal with it anyway). If you pass this policy, prepare for much, much more of that. -- 03:33, 22 May 2010 (BST)
I'm aware that there's bound to be ways for this policy to be used to target people, as there are for any policy adding vandal clauses. Hell, as you pointed out, I've been on the recieving end of it. But I fail to see why we should just allow this kind of harrassment to the community to be something we're powerless over. Yes, you and I can shrug it off and go "fuck it, it's words on the internet", but if someone else would rather it chased up once they're on the recieving end of it, it's their choice not to let it wash over them, not ours. We shouldn't be telling the community to "man up" and ignore any and all hate speech thrown at them, and when they choose not to ignore it, we shouldn't be caught with our thumbs up our asses just because we're afraid of some petulant child throwing a tantrum over being punished. We're coming to get you, Barbara 03:50, 22 May 2010 (BST)
What are you talking about with "harrassment to the community to be something we are powerless over?" You make it seem like this is actually a problem. All I see is one little idiot troll coming on UDWiki once every 2 months, spurting homo insults to anyone he comes in contact with (not even targeting actual homosexuals) and then the community look down on the two people (thad and maybe POD, give or take) who actually QQ about it. This isn't even a problem, and if it is, take Sonny to Vandal Banning now for (which you coined yourself) harassment, which there is a clause for in the guidelines. The flak you get for that will pale in comparison for the long term flak the ops will have to cop for this if it passes. -- 05:27, 22 May 2010 (BST)
And also, if this is simply about homophobia, as the title suggests, then make it about homophobia instead of adding simple things like "but not excluding other such forms" and other sections which will give the lawyers a field day. IMO you need to decide whether this is going to be about homophobia or everything discriminatory, not appear to be the former but actually the latter. -- 05:33, 22 May 2010 (BST)

While I agree that Sonny's rants are uncalled for, I'm not entirely certain that a policy of this nature is the way to go about it. As DDR points out, some of your wording is extremely vague and begging for abuse. If harassment is already a clause in vandalism policy (I honestly have not read through it, so I don't know), then this policy change is entirely unnecessary. --Maverick Talk - OBR Praise Knowledge! 404 06:21, 22 May 2010 (BST)

I think I may have worded the phrase poorly, I'll admit (I wasn't trying to bluff a lie, I'd just woke up so I probably wasn't thinking right). I'm actually very sure it isn't in any polices specifically, however, harassment as vandalism has been around in extreme cases I believe, and today's sysops have already expressed that they would be willing to rule vandalism on harassment if it occurred (to save this being said out of context, it was regarding the way I and others were bothering Cornholioo), so I don't see, if users are willing to claim Sonny's stuff as harassment, why we should enact an entire policy for it... Generally, if it should be vandalism, it can be. Policies don't have to be made for stuff like this if the sysop team are headstrong about it, and it's best if such policies aren't made, if they are retroactively being made simply because of one user. -- 07:25, 22 May 2010 (BST)
Well the same thought applies then. If we already have policy (either written or understood) that harassment is considered vandalism then this is unnecessary. --Maverick Talk - OBR Praise Knowledge! 404 07:38, 22 May 2010 (BST)

My takes on this: I support this policy as-is, but I also think that it could be solved, as DDR mentioned, by merely being consistent or headstrong in an alternative enforcement. That is to say, there's already a clause about hateful speech in the ToU, and it's up to the sysops to interpret and apply the ToU, so we need merely choose to apply that one clause, which up until now we have simply ignored. Either solution would reach the same end, I believe.

As for its application and in what cases it would apply, I don't know. Since we have a relatively low bar for what we consider racist speech, I think a similarly low bar should be applied to homophobic speech. That said, everything is open to interpretation, so just as Cornholioo said plenty of disparaging or somewhat insulting remarks about Jews without an escalation, we can expect that many remarks that may be considered homophobic would be allowed to slide as well. Ones that are clearly derogatory or blatantly homophobic would be escalated however, and standards for what is or isn't considered to be over the line would surely develop in time, just as they have for racist remarks. I see nothing wrong with having an unclear initial standard that is allowed to develop as time goes on. There will be growing pain, for sure, but it's the right thing to do. Aichon 07:51, 22 May 2010 (BST)

I 100% agree with Aichon on this. I would support this policy personally, but it would be just as simple to actually do this as sysops. I must say though, the phrase about "not excluding other kinds" definitely needs to be clarified.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 11:07, 22 May 2010 (BST)

Hatespeechfags--Weed.jpgArthur DentWeed.jpg BIN LADEN IS DEAD!!!!! 08:21, 22 May 2010 (BST)

The policy has my support --C Whitty 17:48, 22 May 2010 (BST)

People are too thin skinned and prone to offense already as it is, let's not make such a condition an official must for usage of the Urban Dead resources. Guidelines regarding "hate speech" are subjective by their very definition; what one man regards as hate speech may not be hateful to another. In fact, the word "man" as I used it may in and of itself be perceived as sexist and hateful. Someone call the cops on me.

Or will I be considered as a vandal for using "that's so gay" as/in a sentence? How about the aforementioned "retard?" That term (mentally retarded) was in and of itself coined to cease offending, as earlier labels for those under its umbrella of conditions, such as "idiot";"imbecile";"moron" took on lives of their own. The racial/ethnic descriptor "Black" may be enough to set some American users off. Moreover, what types of words/actions are we to consider racist? If we're talking about a six word slur for black people, I agree no one wants to see that.

But what about off-game statements regarding social/cultural or political movements/philosophies/items?

I'm very much against this. Douglas Summers 21:19, 22 May 2010 (BST)

Where is the protection for FAT people? Why are you discriminating against another class that is mocked just as much? Calling someone a fat piece of shit is JUST as offensive as calling someone a retarded nigger. Don't draw the line with the gay colored people if you aren't going to support everyone's lame ass butthurt rants about abuse.

And when the hell are you going to overturn that stupid ass policy that changed you all to "Sysops" instead of moderators? Because that is exactly the way you are all going these days. Welcome to the slippery slope. --Globetrotters Icon.png #99 DCC 15:28, 23 May 2010 (BST)

it's a bad idea. I don't think that there is any good reason to restrict that. And if there were reasons, it mustn't fall under the "vandalism" category. -- fe328 11:33, 24 May 2010 (BST)

I certainly agree that we need consistency here, but I think we would need to define exactly what hate speech is. Obviously someone coming here spouting off some bollocks about how all gays should be shot etc is obviously out of order, but would it also cover Sonny's obsession with pork meatballs? Personally I hope it doesn't as I'd hate to see this site become like Wikipedia where everyone goes crying to the admins at the drop of a hat simply because someone said something vaguely nasty to them. If someone here called me a faggot (or anything else so childish), I'd tell 'em to fuck off then get on with my life. Chief Seagull squawk grown-ups agree with Nick 14:49, 24 May 2010 (BST)

Was?!? Such terrible restriction of personal rights is unacceptable in any advanced society, especially for those of us graced with noble birth! --Harald von Holzapfel 18:38, 24 May 2010 (BST)

Nigga stole my bike! - If I say 'African American stole my bike,' you wouldn't understand at all. You'd think I've actually had something stolen, perhaps even by a <racial slur, ban me>darkie</racial slur, ban me>! Everyone knows that 'nigga stole my bike' is the same as 'toucher', but which is more elegant? French? No one likes French!

What if I say 'What?' and someone says 'What, what?'. Then what would I do? Actually elaborate on my question? No! I wanna say 'In the butt'! But now that's possibly vandalism? I'm not hurting the wiki! If I call someone a fag, it's because they made a bad edit, and I'm teaching them. It's not the nicest way of teaching, but it certainly won't make them more likely to repeat their mistake!

What about 'Fat, fat, ugly, ugly, all yellow in reality, if you ask me what I am, I answer 'cheep, cheep, cheep.' Walking along I go, 'poo poo.' What am I? Tell me true.' Is that racist to Jews? Yes. But can't I quote a movie now and then, regardless of content?

The policy itself discriminates against whites and straits by excluding them! You'd have no problem with me saying that Americans are ignorant or that Europeans are sissies! People think it's impossible to discriminate against strait white males, and this policy only give more room for this myth!

KFC.gif Discrimination Isn't Vandalism
This user doesn't think a little racism is worth banning anyone.

Nigger! --VVV RPGMBCWS 04:44, 25 May 2010 (BST)

Seriously, a template and everything? We're coming to get you, Barbara 22:58, 25 May 2010 (BST)
Also, in a rush in the library atm, but what is your actual point, that you'll use whatever terms you want just because? It's already standard practice to escalate for racist abuse, like you just kinda flew out with. This isn't a major addition to policy, just a small expansion of an already-existing standard you've already broken. We're coming to get you, Barbara 23:11, 25 May 2010 (BST)
The original precedent used for these racism escalations was for spamming nonsensical posts on admin pages (J3D simply yelling NIGGER on A/PM rather than contributing), and it's just been getting harsher and harsher from there, because of vandals deciding to push the boundaries as far as they can, and sysop ruling creep. Not all cases of lolracism should be escalated, just as not all cases of yelling "fag" should be, because most of the time it's not being racist or homophobic just because the word is used -- boxy talkteh rulz 23:37 25 May 2010 (BST)
The template was because I wanted to put the picture somewhere, and it looked queer awkward just floating there. My point is that while discrimination is offensive, it's often needed to make a point. Vandalism should be making a discussion impossible, such as by by page blanking it, not failing to contribute to it in a nice way. --VVV RPGMBCWS 00:04, 26 May 2010 (BST)

Calling someone a 'homo' or 'retard' basically means the same thing as calling them 'dumb' or 'stupid' in today's society. Are we going to ban those words too? --Johnny Yossarian 02:25, 26 May 2010 (BST)

No, it does not mean the same thing because 'dumb' and 'stupid' do not have negative connotations towards a specific type of person. Though I wouldn't consider 'retard' hate-speech since telling someone they're retarded because they're acting stupid is literally saying that they are slow, since that is the proper definition of the word. But telling someone that they prefer sexual relationships with someone who has the same genitalia as them is not an acceptable way of letting someone know that you think they're stupid. ---sannok(talk)(kilts) 11:36, 30 May 2010 (BST)
Though I guess 'dumb' once did refer specifically to people who cannot speak, but it's not really used in that context anymore. ---sannok(talk)(kilts) 11:38, 30 May 2010 (BST)
So what? Neither, on the internet, are many uses of "fag" and "retard". You disagree with me? Well that's my opinion, as your dismissal of "dumb" is yours. You see where we are getting at? Everyone has their own opinion of what is too vulgar, too discriminatory or too offensive, so where should the line be drawn and for whom? To the point where someone is offended? We used to have a clause that said uploaded porn on udwiki could be deleted on sight but it was revoked a year later because in practice the portrayal of "porn" differs from all demographics and only ever caused a shitload of controversy. This wouldn't do much different. -- 13:22, 30 May 2010 (BST)
I mean, I don't really have a strong opinion either way on the policy. I just get annoyed when people continue to reinforce the idea that homosexuality is a reflection on one's intelligence. Currently, 'fag' is still a word that is associated with an actual type of person, whereas 'dumb' no longer is. That is why one of them is more insulting than the other.
I think I would agree with not wanting to pass the policy because it's unnecessary if the current policies are enough to deal with hate-speech, but I would not agree with not passing the policy just because people think 'fag' and 'stupid' mean the same thing and thus it's impossible to distinguish actual hate-speech from petty insults. ---sannok(talk)(kilts) 07:06, 31 May 2010 (BST)
Fair enough. I think everyone mostly agrees with the sentiment, but there are too many grey areas and practical setbacks and backlash that implementing this policy would bring, methinks. -- 07:20, 31 May 2010 (BST)
I've had a think over the weekend. I'll retract this if the current sysop team can unofficially consent to treat cases of this nature with a uniformly stern approach, which would alleviate the need for any formal rules. Without such a consensus I'll take this to voting. We're coming to get you, Barbara 19:51, 31 May 2010 (BST)
O noez I wuz called a fags by kidz on internets?! Do you realize how brain-dead this makes whoever even conceived this notion look? Don't pass trash, particularly if it involves censorship or pussies whining about ridiculous bulls#!7. So what if one person rants about whatever they decide to rant about; if it's their page it's their business. Besides, how hard is it to avoid a page on a wiki? We have roughly a billion others. Sort of reminds me of punks commenting on youtube about how badly a vid sucks: who gives a damn. ---Criminally Insane Talk | LoD

Yeah this would work. As long as it is HATE speech, not just "Oh I disklike this dude and that guy" speech.--Sgt Raiden 03:33, 7 June 2010 (BST)

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