UDWiki talk:Administration/Vandal Banning/Archive1

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Discussions moved from the vandal page

14 may


Ensuring vandalism gets reported. As you can see he made a bad-faith edit of this page, probably in the hopes that I would be warned/banned by someone who didn't check his info. -- Amazing 01:47, 14 May 2006 (BST)

Any further actions like this one will render Rasher a warning, as said by Vista. --hagnat mod 01:52, 14 May 2006 (BST)
-_- -- Amazing 01:55, 14 May 2006 (BST)
I was informed by Vista that if I wanted anything done about it, it would have to be reported. You're saying that nothing is going to get done, even though it was reported. Bien fait. -Wyn (talk!) 01:57, 14 May 2006 (BST)

I've already banned you so I'm not sure what else they can do. Also, I'm not sure how reporting actual vandalism is "bad faith". You removed legitimate discussion from the CDF discussion page that was not inflammatory, offtopic, or in any way bad faith, and you know it. Reporting me for vandalism fits with your character, and accordingly is unwarranted. Bans to everyone that reads this! Rasher 03:43, 14 May 2006 (BST)

Rasher, shut up and stop clogging up this page with your crap. I have half a mind to ban you because of your blatant disregard for this wiki.--The General W! Mod 06:47, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Due to his continual bad-faith edits here Rasher has recieved a warning as seen on the case 2 down--Vista W! 13:13, 14 May 2006 (BST)
I love you guys. No seriously. I'M DRUNK! No really! I'm drunk! Anyways, this is stupid. How about we agree to just not be placed on any page that would bother the community in general. Scinfaxi 00:17, 15 May 2006 (BST)
Or you could just stop being retarded. --SirensT RR 00:19, 15 May 2006 (BST)
I make life more interesting, earth needs me. Scinfaxi 00:25, 15 May 2006 (BST)
Could you take a break from making the wiki interesting and learn how to correctly reply? Or are you too caught up in the rush from waiting to re-use a joke again because you can't think of anything new and interesting to add? --Karlsbad 06:55, 15 May 2006 (BST)
Nah, earth has about 5 billion of you. That's excess. Now take your pick: We can either throw you in volcanos, or you can be sex slaves for all the lonely porn stars. I know it's a hard choice, but you'll have to make it. --SirensT RR 00:41, 15 May 2006 (BST)
Wait whatRasher 03:13, 15 May 2006 (BST)

Delta flyer

Check it out here (it's the "Marty the Party" thing in the trophy list). What's weirdest is that I have no idea what he's even referring to. --Jimbo Bob ASS 01:00, 14 May 2006 (BST)

Third time he's done it too. He was reported and warned earlier on on this page. --Lucero U! T 01:09, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Third? Really? I only see one prior report. Regardless, I'll be delighted if this results in an actual ban for once. --Jimbo Bob ASS 01:14, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Marty the Party is his PKer alt. He doesn't like being PKed in response. MaulMachine U! 03:33, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Second warning given. If he does it again, he'll be banned.--'STER-Talk-Mod 03:40, 14 May 2006 (BST)

13 May


He's been banned (see discussion page) and continues to make edits. Even worse, he continues to remove my non threatening, non off topic discussion off CDF discussion page. It's obvious that this is PROOF he deserves a permabanning. Rasher 16:37, 13 May 2006 (BST)

According to Vandal Data, Amazing hasn't been banned. If he had been, his username wouldn't be available for him to use. --SirensT RR 17:34, 13 May 2006 (BST)
I think he's referring to his proclamation here that Amazing is now banned from the wiki. In which case, I support giving Rasher another warning immediately. -Wyn (talk!) 17:57, 13 May 2006 (BST)
Then report him.--Vista W! 18:02, 13 May 2006 (BST)
How exactly does one go about properly reporting lying? Are false reports actually vandalism? -- Amazing 22:56, 13 May 2006 (BST)
I fail to see how lying on a vandal report could be considered good-faith, just report it how you would report any vandalism and we'll decide.--Vista W! 23:10, 13 May 2006 (BST)

This is all completely beside the fact that Amazing vandalized my legitimate, non threatening discussion on a talk paged DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY FOR ANTI AMAZING GROUPS. Rasher 00:01, 14 May 2006 (BST)

"Another" implies that there was a first one. Furthermore, this isn't false. Finally, how could a "false report" not be "reported"? Rasher 00:00, 14 May 2006 (BST)
You have twenty-four hours to actually link to some evidence that Amazing vandalized a page under even partial control by you. If you put said evidence up within this Vandal Banning report, I won't place you here myself. As it is, there is no linked evidence to rule on. -Wyn (talk!) 01:50, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Can we make a 24 hour style webisode like 24? Can you call me Jack Bauer? Also, you arent a mod so I hereby ban you. Anyway, http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Talk:Crossman_Defense_Force#Comments_from_the_Peanut_Gallery ...it even says right now "you can just delete Rasher's comments". I'm not linking the histories individually. Rasher 02:15, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Um. Alright. Personally, I see nothing wrong with simply deleting or blanking, instead of archiving. There are two different mod stories at this point; one is that it's vandalism, and two, that it's acceptable if the page belongs to you. I don't really see anything wrong with what he's doing, even if he's specifically targeting you. -Wyn (talk!) 03:41, 14 May 2006 (BST)
It's a discussion page where I attempted, in good faith, to have a "discussion" with members of a group formerly aligned with my own about topics related to CDF, Amazing, and the other party (The Faggots). He removed the comments, and rather than reposting them himself on a separate talk page, he "deleted" (archived) them. This is vandalism. It's a DISCUSSION page, not an actual topic page, and I made no edits to the actual page. Removing discussion is vandalism. Rasher 03:47, 14 May 2006 (BST)
It wasn't the appropriate place for discussion between two groups, neither of which were the group that the page belonged to. Your conversation got archived to end it so you could restart it in a more appropriate location. Tough beans. If it's such a problem, you could always, you know, start where you left off. Or would that interfere with putting Amazing on the Vandal Banning page? -Wyn (talk!) 03:57, 14 May 2006 (BST)
You're not a moderator, and I have no idea who you are or why you're fellating Amazing. I'm not going to make this any clearer. Rasher 05:53, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Oh but don't you see Rasher, any and all trusted and valued members of the wiki should eventually become Moderators if they invest themselves for long enough in the community. Therefore you should treat anyone who speaks as logically and clearly and precisely as Wyn as a potentional Mod canidate and treat their views as as valid as any other. I understand that you may wonder why you yourself do not have your views respected, but I think that that is because no one in their right mind would ever consider anyone as immature, arrogent, or asinine as you are as EVER being promoted to a Moderator. --Karlsbad 10:07, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Your comments were bad-faith and thus rightly removed. Your history with amazing is well known.--Vista W! 13:18, 14 May 2006 (BST)

Vista: You're either a moron or you're illiterate. My comments were directly addressed to The Faggots concerning the details of the agreement Amazing proposed. Let me understand your logic: Amazing is allowed to "make corrections" to our pages, and if we report him, nothing is done. You can look at the history of vandal banning to see the multitude of bullshit hes propogated through the GANKBUS page. When we try to discuss, in good faith, topics clearly related to all parties invested in a page, he deletes it and theres nothing we can do about it? Thats your position? Go fuck yourself. Rasher 17:23, 14 May 2006 (BST)

Just quit your trolling, go whine somewhere where I don't have to read it.--The General W! Mod 17:56, 14 May 2006 (BST)
The removal of your comments on the CDF talkpage were, considering your history with that group and certain users, justified. Your report of them clearly bad faith, the way you did so obviously vandalism. --Vista W! 18:20, 14 May 2006 (BST)
And even without your history, the removals were allowed. Read the policy documents concerning group pages. --Brizth mod T W! 18:32, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Good faith edits only relate to groups that take UD way too seriously. No sense of humor is allowed here and you must be over-sensitive at all time. Edits will not be judged on a case by case basis, but rather interpreted based on the posters history and the biases of the wiki thought police. Seriously though, the edits were made in good faith and this is obviously part of the wiki purges the moderation team is starting. I think that needs a template! Scinfaxi 20:46, 14 May 2006 (BST)
You're just plain annoying, did you know that? I've heard people say in private that they think you're more useless than Amazing. (No offense ment to Amazing). Why don't you just shut the feck up? --SirensT RR 20:54, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Useless? Nah. I do manage to keep the wiki informed of in-game goings on related to a few things. Oh yes, and in the case you didn't notice Mia, most of the GANKBUS and the Faggots are college students who do this to keep themselves entertained. I can't spend everyday of my life sipping shitty Smirnoff alcohol. Seriously though, we're way too intelligent for the thought police to guess the intentions of everything we post. A "good faith edit" cannot be determined solely on the basis of who made it. Scinfaxi 22:25, 14 May 2006 (BST)
This is my impression of Mia. "Check it out guys I'm drunk! No really, I'm so drunk! Wooo! You see, you see! Look, give me attention! Look, I spelled Amazing like Amazin'. Woo, I'm so drunk! I'm definately drunk! PLEASE GIVE ME ATTENTION!". Scinfaxi 22:27, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Screw Private, I personally have said as much in public; scinfaxi = nothing. --Karlsbad 22:21, 14 May 2006 (BST)
That hurts. That REALLY hurts. My vagina. But you know what? If you think we're nothing, which you obviously don't, then simply ignore us. We don't screw up community pages and fueding is kept amongst ourselves. If you have no sense of humor (or are just a dumbass), then don't read what we post! Scinfaxi 22:29, 14 May 2006 (BST)
You are right; it isn't that I think you are nothing, as you obviously continue to exist even though no one wants you here. So therefore, you must be LESS than nothing, as you take up oxygen and bandwidth without contributing ANYTHING. --Karlsbad 23:12, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Seriously though, we're way too intelligent for the thought police to guess the intentions of everything we post Seriously though, you're not. I have to be impressed with somebody exclaiming his intelligence as college students? Silly ego you have there if you think that's something special.--Vista W! 22:35, 14 May 2006 (BST)
I'm not saying I'm a genius Vista, I'm just saying I'm smarter than anyone I talk to on here. And most Dutch people (joke, but I'm going to wait for Mia to call me a racist again). As far as my ego, I can't help it, perhaps its my incredibly oversized penis. If you don't enjoy the information or dialogue we contribute, then simply ignore it. The only way we get on public pages is MAINLY because someone else is reporting us. Our edits are not all over the wiki or anything. Scinfaxi 22:40, 14 May 2006 (BST)
while I agree that your edits are not all over the wiki or anything they have almost always been annoying and skirting vandalism, And sometimes they were just plain vandalism. You want to have fun at the cost of other users, Well don't whine then when dealing with the consequences of that.--Vista W! 22:55, 14 May 2006 (BST)

Note to anyone reading this: Unless you're having mental diarrhea and putting what you think straight onto the Wiki, policing the edits made by users is not being Thought Police at all. It's actually policing your actions. And furthermore, censorship - in limited cases - is accepted by the majority of European-originating cultures. It's why we have anti-slander/libel laws, and in some countries, laws against using obscenites in public. -Wyn (talk!) 06:50, 15 May 2006 (BST)


Major vandalism on carrytheredflag's user talk page Here--Mpaturet 00:27, 13 May 2006 (BST)

He blanked the page and replaced with a whole lot of insults. Ive reverted to the last good edit. However, since i dont render verdict on vandal bannings... --Grim s-Mod 00:31, 13 May 2006 (BST)
Ach, just give him a warning. --hagnat mod 00:39, 13 May 2006 (BST)
He's warned--Grim, what are you talking about?--'STER-Talk-Mod 02:06, 13 May 2006 (BST)
Grim doesn't render verdicts on vandal cases. --SirensT RR 02:09, 13 May 2006 (BST)
...Why?--'STER-Talk-Mod 02:57, 13 May 2006 (BST)
Centaurs. -- Amazing 03:06, 13 May 2006 (BST)
Oh. WTF, then.--'STER-Talk-Mod 03:18, 13 May 2006 (BST)

12 May


This one's pretty straight forward. -- Amazing 00:45, 12 May 2006 (BST)

What ? Aw, i see now. Just revert it yourself for now. And, rueful, do not overwrite this picture again. I will rule on this later, have some business to do now. --hagnat mod 00:51, 12 May 2006 (BST)
I think it's pretty much a shoe-in warning. This is also a violation of an Arbitration Ruling, very soon after it was made. -- Amazing 00:54, 12 May 2006 (BST)

After reading the arbitration rule on Wikigate - Amazing vs. Rueful, i clearly see that Rueful violated two wiki rulings. The first by vandalising an image used by a user, group or policy to promote their objectives. The second by violating the ruling on the said arbitration case. Thus, Rueful receives TWO warnings. And, allow me to question this: does you guys finally grew tired of griefing Amazing and are now trying to get banned from the wiki ? All you guys have to do is ask. --hagnat mod 02:23, 12 May 2006 (BST)

Read the arbitration decision hagnut, it deals entirely with comments on user/group pages, which I did not violate. Changing that image was a good faith edit and an attempt at humor, I'm distressed to see that it was received so poorly! -- Rueful 02:34, 12 May 2006 (BST)
I saw the edit. Thats a load of **** --SirensT RR 02:38, 12 May 2006 (BST)

Sidenote: Templates, or Pages (Other than personal talk pages) created by either party that exists (or may be perceived by a mod) as existing exclusivly to antagonize the other party shall not be created by either party. Uploading the edited image created a history page, therin creating a page exclusively to antagonize me. One could argue that this part of the ruling applies to the image without even considering the history page, but I can forsee the responce to that and have decided to point out the previous facts. -- Amazing 02:43, 12 May 2006 (BST)

How does a bloodshot eye antagonize you? I didn't put a beard on the house or anything that might relate to you personally, unless you have some kind of chronic(LOL) bloodshot eye syndrome. Do your eyes really look like that? -- Rueful 03:02, 12 May 2006 (BST)

Rueful, see point 2 on the ruling. Rueful is not to comment on any page where Amazing is considered an invested party(i.e. Amazing's User page, or any group of which Amazing maintains an active membership in wether he has posted recently on that page or not).

The Malton Watch is a group/policy (i still dont know exactly what it is) created by amazing. Seeing how you and amazing had (and probably still have) disagreements, you were not meant to do any joke with that group, especially by overwriting the image this group uses. --hagnat mod 03:17, 12 May 2006 (BST)

Think of it as user-driven arbitration that concerns in-game as well as out, wherein things not fitting into the current Moderation categories may be pointed out, discussed, and possibly moved upon. -- Amazing 05:08, 12 May 2006 (BST)

I'm going to give you a warning in your shoe. In fact, I hereby ban you. Amazing has been banned from the wiki. Rasher 01:46, 12 May 2006 (BST)

11 May

Waiting for Grim S for pies--Vista W! 22:33, 11 May 2006 (BST)

The Pies shall be Custard.--Grim s-Mod 22:35, 11 May 2006 (BST)
How many paces?--Vista W! 22:37, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Ten should be sufficient. *picks up a pie*--Grim s-Mod 22:38, 11 May 2006 (BST)
*picks up a pie* one...--Vista W! 22:39, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...two...--Grim s-Mod 22:41, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...three...--Vista W! 22:43, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...four...--Grim s-Mod 22:44, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...five...--Vista W! 22:44, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...six...--Grim s-Mod 22:47, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...seven...--Vista W! 22:47, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...eight...--Grim s-Mod 22:49, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...nine...--Vista W! 22:50, 11 May 2006 (BST)
...ten! *turns to throw pie*--Grim s-Mod 22:51, 11 May 2006 (BST)
*turns to throw pie*--Vista W! 22:52, 11 May 2006 (BST)
*throws pie at Vista*--Grim s-Mod 22:53, 11 May 2006 (BST)
*throws pie at Grim s*--Vista W! 22:55, 11 May 2006 (BST)
*gets hit in the face with a pie* Mmmm... Custard... --Grim s-Mod 22:56, 11 May 2006 (BST)
*gets hit in the face with a pie* brh!... Apple... you cad!--Vista W! 22:58, 11 May 2006 (BST)
I could have sworn that was custard! --Grim s-Mod 22:59, 11 May 2006 (BST)
I knew I should have asked for secundants... O well, *shambles off to eat one of the spare custard pies...*--Vista W! 23:02, 11 May 2006 (BST)
I hereby declare the duel drawn and ended. Let the pies be eaten. *licks pie off his face* --Grim s-Mod 23:13, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Hear! Hear!--Vista W! 23:15, 11 May 2006 (BST)

...The above has got to be the funniest thing I have seen on the wiki in awhile... --SirensT RR 23:04, 11 May 2006 (BST)

What in god's name just happened...MaulMachine 21:05, 13 May 2006 (BST)
We went a whole day without a vandal report! It would have been a shame to leave this heading totally blank. --Sindai 21:26, 13 May 2006 (BST)

10 May


WHAT THE F***?! In my book, that qualifies as racism, and considering Scinfaxi's recent history, I don't feel it should be taken lightly. Since the Wiki has no policy for this ( >.< ) I feel it should be considered vandalism as it's far from "Good Faith" --SirensT RR 19:25, 10 May 2006 (BST)

That would be a joke. Geez you people are sensitive! Can I please NOT be on the vandal page. I like the moderation staff and all, but this is way too much. Note I did list an actual reason. This is my one allowed response by the way. Scinfaxi 19:27, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Joke or not, given the circumstances it was highly inappropriate --SirensT RR 19:32, 10 May 2006 (BST)
What? I just don't like Australians, chill! Scinfaxi 19:41, 10 May 2006 (BST)
That's another joke by the way. You need to get some sun and thicken your skin Mia, cause' really it's not THAT big a deal. I actually LOVE Australians. It's the Dutch I really don't like. Scinfaxi 19:43, 10 May 2006 (BST)
You love Australians, do you? I'd hate to see how you treat people you don't like... --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 09:04, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Damn clog wogs (JOKE!). Scinfaxi 19:48, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Jesus Mary and Joseph. First, it's not racism, it's nationalism and the two are very different. Second, it's obviously a joke. Please, please, please, GET A FUCKING GRIP and stop trying to create drama for no fucking reason at all.--Jorm 20:51, 10 May 2006 (BST)
If it's a joke, why is he objecting so vigourously to having it struck out? --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 22:43, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I'm not seeing where he objects to it being struck out; I'm seeing objection to being called a vandal for it. Lucero objected to it being struck out, and last I checked, Lucero != Scinfaxi.--Jorm 23:17, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Cute. First, Nationalism has nothing to do with hating people for being from another country. Secondly, Racism or not, it's almost exactly the same thing, and if anyone's going to hate anybody, it should be for being a prick, not where they're from. Third: I was NOT starting Drama, which you're doing a pretty good job of. Please stop. If it isn't Vandalism, state your opinion and move on. Your trolling is unneeded and unnessesary. --SirensT RR 00:20, 11 May 2006 (BST)
So, stop with the bullshit. No one believes you were morally offended; you were just looking to create drama and continue some sort of "me in the spotlight" drama-whore bullshit. Calling a joke "racist" when it obviously isn't is inciting drama. Stop it. You're not impressing anyone. No one cares. The fight over this *vandal report* has generated more drama than the *original comment* did and that should tell you something. So: here is my opinion, and I'll move on: it isn't vandalism, and you are being a drama-whore. --Jorm 00:24, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Excuse me?? Who are you to say whether or not I'm acting on my morals. Racism, General Sterotyping, and Almost all things along those lines REALLY piss me off. So guess what? If Cyberbob wasn't offended, that doesn't matter, because I was. But that's not even the point, because as Lucero points out, we don't have a policy for offensive material.
Now YOU Stop. All you're doing is making the situation worse. --SirensT RR 00:48, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Exactly. I don't care if you throw it out, but it's not vandalism. Did I REALLY offend you bob? Scinfaxi 23:36, 10 May 2006 (BST)

As far as I can see, it's a joke. No harm, and he's said that he's not nationalist or racist. He hasn't, however, denied being a communist. I say we cover him with tar and roll him around in some feathers, then chase him out of the wiki. --TheTeeHeeMonster 23:37, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Even if it weren't a joke, there's still no grounds for a warning. We turned down the Policy on Talking Happily with Hugs and Stuff. --Lucero Capell 23:39, 10 May 2006 (BST)
This has nothing to do with the Happy talking with hugs policy. It has to do with Good Faith edits, thank you very much. --SirensT RR 00:20, 11 May 2006 (BST)
If it has to do with good faith edits, then please state so more clearly. As it is, you're making it sound like you reported it because it is offensive (which is NOT reason enough to report it) and I evidently was not the only person to read it that way. --Lucero Capell 03:38, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Personally, I thought "I feel it should be considered vandalism as it's far from "Good Faith"" was VERY clear. --SirensT RR 03:44, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Well, everyone else didn't seem to get that picture. Especially when you start with "WHAT THE F***?! In my book, that qualifies as racism, and considering Scinfaxi's recent history, I don't feel it should be taken lightly. Since the Wiki has no policy for this". Still sounds like you're talking about racism to me. --Lucero Capell 03:48, 11 May 2006 (BST)

Geez, Mia. What are you, the founder of the Australian Anti-Defamation League or something? There's absolutely no reason why anyone should be even mildly offended by this - and if you want to talk about "Good Faith edits", take a look at all the useful productiveness that has come from you taking this from a casual, obviously unserious comment and dragging it into Vandal Banning. --Jimbo Bob ASS 00:50, 11 May 2006 (BST)

I noticed that too. What I'm seeing out of this is the following:
  • User A, who has gotten a lot of heat for thier shite makes a highly offensive comment about User B, who has, in fact, been trying to clean up.
  • User C gets offended and determines that it was a bad-faith edit, and as such, makes a vandal report.
  • Users D though whatever, instead of simply saying, "I don't see this as vandalism," descend on User C like a pack of wolves, thus kicking up tons of drama where there didn't have to be any.
By the way, I DID try to talk to a few of these people about this through private media. It didn't work out quite as well as I'd hoped (I think I was blocked), and thus, here we are. --SirensT RR 00:57, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Initial nitpick: I'm pretty sure you need a "User A" in there somewhere. Substantive stuff: if you want people to respond calmly, you need to initiate things calmly. Shouting "WHAT THE F***?!" and making allegations of racism hardly qualify as "calm". --Jimbo Bob ASS 01:08, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Ug. Thanks for pointing out that typo. I need a break. Okay, you're right, the "What the F***" wasn't nessesasry, but I dissagree about the accusal of racism. Joke or no, that's what I saw it as, and even now, even if it is a joke, that's what I STILL see it as. --SirensT RR 01:18, 11 May 2006 (BST)
All right. Well, about the "racism", then. One, that term applied here is simply technically inaccurate. Racism refers to prejudice based upon major regional phenotypes, and last I checked Australian was still a nationality (I suspect that this is where the "nationalism" mislabeling originated). If you want to seem reasonable instead of coming off as at least a bit of a drama-whore, you'd do better to go with a less spectacular, more accurate description like "I find this offensive", or "This seems like stereotyping, and I find that offensive". Second, I don't see why you (or anyone else) should find that comment offensive. It's not like he was using any kind of national epithet (think "mick" and the like), or playing into any national stereotypes or anything like that. Yes, he's ascribing a negative attribute to Australians, but he's doing so in a way that seems to me to be comparable with saying something like "I don't like those Spaniards - they're plotting world domination!". It's obviously unserious, and I think equally obviously harmless.
Whoo, I really got going there, didn't I? Anyway, hope that explains things okay. --Jimbo Bob ASS 01:35, 11 May 2006 (BST)
It doesn't matter whether or not a person can see why someone would be offended by that. The fact is that I DID find it offensive. Would it make you feel any better if I told you my parents were born in raised in Austrailia? At any rate, I looked up racism. You're right, I used the wrong term (Though I'm sure one could see Austrailians as a race of people from Austrailia). "Prejudice" is what this would be. One moment while I change the initial acusation--SirensT RR 01:42, 11 May 2006 (BST)
No, that wouldn't make me "feel any better", and it wouldn't make your complaint any more valid either. The bottom line is this: I don't think it was offensive (and I know it wasn't THAT offensive), and you need to grow a thicker skin. If hearing people trash-talk, however jokingly, the land of your forefathers makes you bristle, that's perfectly fine. I'm a little touchy about that kind of thing myself. When you cannot let it go, to the point where you feel the need to try and get the user who did it banned, that's not fine. I'm honestly sorry if that comes off as harsh - from what I've seen of you, you're generally an alright kinda gal - but it is nevertheless true. If somebody ticks you off like that, contact them via their talk page or something, and then drop it regardless of their response. I've had more than my share of drama, and I can promise you it's not worth it. --Jimbo Bob ASS 01:57, 11 May 2006 (BST)
First, my parents didn't come from Austrailia. That was an example. I get touchy anytime someone says someone from group X is a Y type of person. And I will not get a thicker skin simply because no one should have to put up with this crud.
Second, I DIDN'T report him because he offended me. I reported him for what I felt a bad-faith edit, or more accurately, for something I felt was uncalled for, and totally unnessesary in that area. If he had said it on Cyberbob's talk page, I probably wouldn't have cared.
Third, a good deal of the community seems to have a misconception that reporting a vandal will result in a ban. It DOESN'T in cases like these, even if they are considered vandalism. The User gets a warning, and if that user has enough warnings, THEN they get banned. Even then it's not a permanent ban. It's a 24 hour ban, UNLESS the user has recieved prior bans, and by that point, the user in question is probably more than deserving.--SirensT RR 02:12, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Finnally, addressing the bit on drama, I don't like it either. I was hoping that I could report what I saw to be vandal thinking - once again wrongly, perhaps I'm more naive than I'd like to admit - that if the community dissagreed, the worst I'd deal with is "I don't think this is vandalism". Did that happen? Heck no. Instead, someone, somewhere decided, "We can't simply dissagree with her, she hasn't sucked my dick enough. we have to BURN this bitch." I don't want to say that's true, but that's how it's appearing. --SirensT RR 02:12, 11 May 2006 (BST)
You absolutely need to get a grip and set down the persecution pipe. If it feels like I've been riding you about your drama shit, well, maybe you should cut down your drama. But I'm not riding just you, and I think several people here can attest that I've gotten sick and tired of vandal reporting and arbitration in general and am coming down on everyone about it. Why did I lay into you? Because a) you used an emotionally charged, demagogue-ish term ("racism," when it clearly wasn't), b) it was obvious that the report existed only because you hadn't gotten enough comments for the day, and c) this is the third or fourth time you've done something like this and then gone "oops! who, me?"
As far as your comment about "I think I was blocked via other means": I told you that I was at work and didn't have the time. And then, I said to you exactly what I said here, followed by "And now I'm done with the discussion.". And you logged off in a huff. Follow that with a bunch of sniping and insinuations that that I'm pissed because you haven't fawned over me or anything, and well: fuck. you. I find that highly offensive, and I think it's a bad-faith edit. But you know what? I'm not going to report you to vandalism because the punishment does not fit the crime and I certainly don't feel the need to run to mommy or daddy whenever someone gets mean.
I regret ever suggesting you apply for mod-ship. You can't seem to comport yourself in anything approaching a rational manner (I don't care much about civil - just consistent) or take any level of criticism at all.--Jorm 04:00, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Gonna go point-by-point with you here. First, where your parents did or did not come from is irrelevant. What I said about needing to let things go still applies. It's cool you want to stick up for other people and all, but try to reserve it for cases where they actually need it. Second, if I recall your post correctly, you felt it was bad-faith because it was offensive. Given that, I'm not sure I see how the distinction you're drawing there makes any kind of sense. Also, your distinction between Scinfaxi saying what he did as a comment attached to his vote, and his hypothetically saying it on Cyberbob's talk baffles me. Why would that be any different? Third, in Scinfaxi's case, had he been ruled against in the case you brought, he would have been banned. By bringing that report, you were trying to get him banned. Trust me, I've accumulated enough experience with Vandal Banning to understand how it works. Finally, to repeat an earlier point as you seem to be repeating an earlier complaint, if you want people to respond calmly, you have to speak to them calmly, and that's all that there is to it. The persecution complex really doesn't look good on you. --Jimbo Bob ASS 02:42, 11 May 2006 (BST)
When you put it that way, I suppose there isn't really a distinction between the two. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not doing it simply because I don't like it. I'm doing it because it didn't belong there because ti was offensive. As far as the distinction I make between the moderator page and anywhere else is this: In my opinion, the Moderation and Policy pages should be handled in a manner that's as civil as possible. Trolling and other useless comments get in the way of getting anything done. Finnally, no, I wasns't putting him up for vandalism to get him banned, regardless of how many warnings he has. I was simply putting him up for vandalism. If he has enough warnings to get himself banned, that's his fault and his problem, and has nothing to do with me. --SirensT RR 02:59, 11 May 2006 (BST)
With regards to offensiveness: You still haven't explained how what Scinfaxi said was any more offensive that the hypothetical "OMFG SPANIARDS" scenario I outlined. I'd appreciate it if you did so. With regards to your comment on how "In my opinion, the Moderation and Policy pages should be handled in a manner that's as civil as possible": You're perfectly welcome to hold that opinion. Where you go wrong is when you attempt to enforce that opinion as wiki policy. Violating the established policy of the wiki is vandalism - violating the personal principles of an individual user is not. If you think that Scinfaxi (or any other user, for that matter) attaching non-useful/potentially flame-inducing comments to votes on Moderation and Policy pages ought to be vandalism, feel free to suggest that in Policy Discussion. As of right now, however, it is very clearly not vandalism, regardless of what your feelings on the subject may be. --Jimbo Bob ASS 03:36, 11 May 2006 (BST)
I did suggest that. It seems there's more people on the Wiki that enjoy trolling than there are people who don't. Also, because I have to point it out again, it was not good-faith, which IS vandalism by Wiki policy. --SirensT RR 03:44, 11 May 2006 (BST)
"I'd appreciate it if you did so"... but apparently you're not gonna. As for the rest of it: He recorded a valid vote on a page specifically made for voting, and attached a comment which was also entirely permissible, as apparently you already tried to make this a wiki policy and were specifically informed that no, that's definitely not vandalism. That's practically the definition of good-faith. --Jimbo Bob ASS 03:56, 11 May 2006 (BST)

Jimbo, humor doesn't make it a good faith edit. Just an observation. It provides nothing useful. That's why it's bad faith. Not because it's ZOMG RACISM!!1!!!!eleven!11!1 -Wyn (talk!) 01:00, 11 May 2006 (BST)

You're right that humour does not necessarily make something good faith, but it certainly doesn't make it bad faith. People should be allowed to attach comments to their votes whether they're particularly useful or not. --Jimbo Bob ASS 01:06, 11 May 2006 (BST)
This sounds pretty bad, but somehow I'm not surprised that such a comment came from Scinfaxi... and yes, I am moderately offended. I'm not raging mad, but a little angry. An apology, followed by Scinfaxi removing the offensive comment (and maybe a warning), would be enough for me. --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 08:38, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Well, actually, I personally would be more offended with the edit being some kind of attempt at explination of a vote against rather than the comment itself; it implys that, not only does Scinfaxi not want you to be a moderator, but he doesn't feel like being decent enough to give a reasonable and concise explination and instead leaves a flippent reply. But I don't think that it is a vandalization, but I don't think it is a valid vote either; I'd rather have it crossed out and disregarded, but I believe that Kevan would do that anyway. --Karlsbad 08:59, 11 May 2006 (BST)
I don't particularly agree that that's offensive, but I'm not gonna try and play thought-police here. You've got a right to take Scinfaxi's comment however you want to. Regardless, I believe firmly "offensive" does not necessarily mean "vandalism". I'm not gonna play thought-police, but I don't much care to see other people trying to, either. If users have problems with each other, they should try to find a way of dealing with them that isn't reliant upon brute force from the mods - both for the sake of the culture of the wiki, and to keep the mods' workload from becoming insurmountable. --Jimbo Bob ASS 09:01, 11 May 2006 (BST)
You are correct McSnatherson/JimboBob, we shouldn't start playing the author intent and thought-police game. Rather, it would be best for us to remark on the pure uselessness of the edit itself; instead of suggesting a change that CyberBob could impliment and therefore improve his oportunity to become a moderator, Scinfaxi chose to create a flacid arguement that CyberBob could never change, as he is always going to be Australian. Therefore, the vote, and therefore the edit is useless and should be struck out. It isn't Vandalism, it is just a natural Scinfaxi-grade "contribution". Skip the warning, but strike out the vote. --Karlsbad 09:32, 11 May 2006 (BST)
As I said, an apology, a strikeout of the vote/a complete rewording of the vote plus maybe a warning would do me. --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 09:04, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Yeah, that sounds like it'd be fair, to both of you. Edit: Wait... I think I may've just been inconsistent there somehow. Well, it's too late to figure it out now. I needs to get me some sleep. Later, y'alls. --Jimbo Bob ASS 10:00, 11 May 2006 (BST)
*cough* --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 08:04, 12 May 2006 (BST)
...Oh, you waiting on me? Yeah, sorry. Basically my position is just that it wasn't offensive, definitely wasn't vandalism, but that if it really bothers people so much Scinfaxi should probably go ahead and delete/modify his vote, if only to avoid pointless dramas. 'K? --Jimbo Bob ASS 02:21, 13 May 2006 (BST)
While I realize some of you have not completed the third grade like me, I think I should clarify. I gave a perfectly valid reason, touched up with a little humor. Offensive? Maybe, but it wasn't intended that way. I'm shocked no one thought I hated the Dutch! What if I decided to found a group to deter Canadian imperialism in Malton? Would that be offensive to you? It's really been blown out of proportion. Also, Karlsbad and anyone else who said I did not make a valid reason for bob not being a mod are idiots who can't read. My apologies to any Australians I offended, your country is beautiful. I just plain don't like those shifty eyed Tasmanians (prepares for wave of criticism from hyper-sensitive wiki users). Scinfaxi 02:13, 13 May 2006 (BST)
Before I turn into a seething b*tch again, I'd like to point out that the Vandal Report concerning this particular thing was removed - by me - and there is no longer a need to argue this. --SirensT RR 02:17, 13 May 2006 (BST)
Oh yes, and Mia, it's either nationalism or bigotry. It COULD be considered nativism in certain contexts. Scinfaxi 05:09, 13 May 2006 (BST)


Follow this link for the change on my page done by xoid. It is a direct alteration of my own words, which comes under the wiki policy's 'sole ownership of user's talk page' rules. I would like to make a complaint about this unauthorized editing. He seems somewhat out of control, considering he doesn't appear to even me a mod.

Nope it doesn't come under the 'sole ownership of user's talk page' as user talk pages are mend to be used as a communication tool, the 'owner' does have extra rights over the page thats true. However your complaint in no way touches that particular rule at the moment. Your complaint comes it under the impersonation clause, and he's indeed not allowed to do that. on the otherhand seeing how you acted, you don't deserve a beauty award either, blanking pages of other users is extremely bad form, even if you had permission. I'm going to tell xoid not to do it again, but not give him a warning. And I want both of to take it more easy.--Vista W! 11:31, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Fat chance of that happening. He seems insistent upon putting forward his alternate reality. I could damn well have put him on here for vandalism, and instead I ask him "why", giving him a chance to get himself out of a possibly bad situation. Instead, he ignores that. And frankly, I don't see how this can be construed as impersonation. I didn't sign his name there, and neither did he. It was a statement heavily bolded above the heading. Really, what rational person is going to assume that he is calling himself ignorant of the facts, instead of this "xoid" who was flaming him adding fuel to the fire. If anything, altering that text would've made him look better in the eyes of anyone not going through the history.
I put my demands on his talk page, but I'll state them here in a less cuss-word infested form:
  1. He removes his obvious goading.
  2. He removes the blatant trolling I responded with after his obvious goading.
  3. He apologises to the other user for breaching etiquette so badly, instead of informing him that it was extremely poor form to blank a talk page. Particularly when the issues on his talk page weren't exactly old.
Xoid STFU! 13:36, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Oh now this is rich. Check out this edit. Claiming to be the same user. What's the UD Wiki's stance on multiple accounts? –Xoid STFU! 15:47, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Just to quicky answer few things: Multiple accounts are allowed, though for voting it's obviously one vote per user, not per account. If user blanks another account's page with the other, it's only his own fault if he is reported as vandal. But as a side note, blanking your own or your group's talk pages is not forbidden in any way, it's just bad form. Very bad in the latter case. --Brizth mod T W! 18:21, 10 May 2006 (BST)


Not sure where else to put this. Looked up a photo of me on another website and uploaded it here for the purpose of ridicule. Past Moderator statements have clearly laid out the fact that this is not allowed. -- Amazing 04:33, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Oh fine asshole, I'll remove it. There, are you fucking happy? Note that the only reason I am doing this is to make a good-faith effort at reconciliation with you. Scinfaxi 04:37, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I might tend to believe that if you hadn't started with "Oh fine asshole". Well.. actually, no.. I wouldn't. I believe you see you've done something that is black-and-white 100% no-quibbles wrong and you're trying to avoid the hammer. But I'll take it. -- Amazing 04:39, 10 May 2006 (BST)
As of yet image has not been removed though Scinfaxi continues to use the Wiki. (Furthermore, if posting an image on the internet means you have no copyright, I'd like to see Scinfaxi go to disney.com and tell them that.) -- Amazing 04:43, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I removed it from the page in question, then deleted it. Unfortantely I'm not as fat as you (comment made in response to Amazing's behavior) and thus cannot do things as quickly on the computer. Scinfaxi 04:59, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Do you honestly think I care if I'm obviously violating the rules? Pssh. Absolutely not. This is EXACTLY why nobody likes you. Scinfaxi 04:43, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Eh, that's because you're a virginal little pussy with nothing better to do than troll, vandalize, and flame me. :) -- Amazing 04:44, 10 May 2006 (BST)
See, now how could ANYONE hate this guy so much as to make him an object of ridicule? Scinfaxi 04:51, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Scinfaxi. Master of the self-fulfilling prophecy. -- Amazing 04:58, 10 May 2006 (BST)
This page is not for fighting out arguments. Both of you will stop. And this does not get repeated in the future either, next report either one of you make there will be no more replies other then 1 rebuttal made by the other party.--Vista W! 11:37, 10 May 2006 (BST)
What the fuck? I haven't made any reports, I'm simply responding to them. Tell Amazing to get off his period and quit bitching. I took his fatass off the picture and replaced it with my former kitten that got run over (I hope you cry when you see the picture). My advice is that the moderation team simply ignore anything Amazing posts, that way we can all be happy. Scinfaxi 18:58, 10 May 2006 (BST)
next comment by you Scinfaxi on this report is bad faith, this page is not for flamewars. If you feel the need to discuss something you better use a talk page your still allowed on.--Vista W! 19:10, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Hmm, because scrolling down the page it seems like there are several disputes in progress. You really intend to say that my comments by default are bad faith? Ha! Well, you can ban me for posting on this but I REALLY don't think that would work. It's amazing how the moderation team will pander to Amazing. That's beside the point though. I took the picture down and replaced it with a much more attractive one. The original photograph only appeared on MY talk page, which is my domain anyway. I don't mind any moderator ruling on this subject right now. Scinfaxi 19:21, 10 May 2006 (BST)

I'll refrain from comment until the ruling, which I expect soon...? -- Amazing 04:59, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Yeah, he's a jerk for pointing out how much of a fatass Amazing is. It was his talk page though, and Amazing clearly mocks Scinfaxi on his own user page. Also, did I mention Amazing has an ugly beard? Now I'm very OBVIOUSLY NOT SCINFAXI, but I do think wiki jail is taking it's toll on him. Of course, he has spent a little time photoshopping the photograph in question to make it more entertaining (and he will be hosting it off site). Earsarewaxi 18:20, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Blatant alt of Scinfaxi. Banned. Email me if you think I am mistaken.--The General W! Mod 19:08, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Furthermore, photoshopped images of me - wherever they are hosted - will be removed by me personally, regardless of reprocussions, assuming Mods don't intervene. -- Amazing 19:31, 11 May 2006 (BST)
Any photoshopped pic of you hosted here whitout your approval will be removed Amazing. But i fail to understand how you plan to personally remove the picture if he upload it on a free web hosting site, like imageshack or xs.to :\ --hagnat mod 23:15, 11 May 2006 (BST)
He can simply remove the link to it from the page. -Wyn (talk!) 18:10, 13 May 2006 (BST)
That, or I'd h4xx0r teh gibs0n. -- Amazing 00:56, 16 May 2006 (BST)


While i strongly believe Scinfaxi shouldn't be punished for the below case, i too strongly believe it is time for him to leave this wiki. Anyone that keep track on all the Zomg Amazing Drama !!1! will find Scinfaxi helping in one way or another to further any drama already settled, if not responsable in creating them.

Looking at his user contributions page one can easily see that Scinfaxi latest edits were all related to Amazing, probably to attack or tease him. The only contribution i see was his first edits on the Crossman Groove PD location page, but this page eventually grew up to an edit war between Amazing and Scinfaxi.

For his poor behaviour in this wiki in the latest months, and his lack of will to improve the wiki, i ask this wiki community to vote him out. --hagnat mod 03:59, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Ban Vote 2: This time it's personal! I'd like to see this, (only fair since it happened to me) but of course I'm the LAST person who would be taken seriously, now. I doubt anyone else will set it up in Policy Discussion. -- Amazing 04:02, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I'd be happy to get rid of him, but only if amazing goes as well. It seems that if both of those people left, there would be little to no drama left.--Bermudez 04:03, 10 May 2006 (BST)
There is already a vote on me in progress. You might want to voice this there, since your personal problems with me aren't the point of the post. -- Amazing 04:05, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I think I already have voiced it there, I just want to point out that if we are going to ban people for being useless trolls, Scinfaxi isn't the place to start--Bermudez 04:25, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Right back atcha. -- Amazing 19:34, 11 May 2006 (BST)
A page has been made here for voting and discussion on this matter. Please address comments there, as to save on space on this page. Thanks. – Nubis NWO 04:25, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Man. The absolutely last thing you want is for there to be a precedent of banning people for trolling, Amazing.--Jorm 05:41, 10 May 2006 (BST)
No, no it isn't. -- Amazing 06:16, 10 May 2006 (BST)
You realize, don't you, that you'd be the next person on that particular chopping block, right? I'm not saying that I think it should happen - I don't - just given the . . . flavor . .. of the bulk of your interactions with people, you'd be signing your own death warrant to spite one person. Just food for thought.--Jorm 06:43, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I am being 100% truthful when I say that, if people could be banned or have SOME kind of reprocussions for trolling, you'd never see me embroiled in drama again. Why? The trolls would be blasted out of the Wiki and I wouldn't need to consistantly defend myself, and wouldn't get aggrivated when it never.. fugging.. ends. -- Amazing 06:48, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Your response here though tells me that you percieve yourself to be a complete and total victim here, above reproach, when that absolutely is not the case. My very first interaction with you was to tell you that you should drop one of your vandal cases because it wasn't going anywhere and was only making you look childish and your response was to call me a "trolling asshole" - and I hadn't said anything remotely trollish to you. This type of response does not engender sympathy; quite the opposite. Did you ever think that the reason you may be targeted so often is because of the way you react? --Jorm 06:56, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I guess my response told you what you wanted to hear. I'm telling you what I believe the future would hold if that were the case. Anything more is simply your own words crammed in. Maybe you need to ask yourself why people should be allowed to 'target' someone on a Wiki in the first place. As for our interactions in which I was wholly unjust in calling you a troll, this is as far back as I can find so far. Feel free to remind me of what went down, however. -- Amazing 07:02, 10 May 2006 (BST)
It has apparantly long-since been gifted unto the Gods of the Wiki Purge. Your link there is something that happened long after. I do remember that someone - Odd Starter, I think - made a comment to the effect that you should pay attention to what I said as it was a good indication of your reputation on the wiki. As far as whether or not I believe that people should be able to "target" others on a wiki: I don't. I think people that do so are childish. But I also think that this is the internet, and people pee in the cornflakes of others. The mature thing to do is ignore it and move on, as reaction begets action. --Jorm 07:31, 10 May 2006 (BST)

I am against such action, banning users from this wiki without going to the already established procedure is not something I can agree to, If we continue to have the level of trolling on this wiki as we do now a far more approprate way of dealing is declearing any edits made by the party concerning pages of the subject, about the subject or responces to the subject, etc. bad faith and elligable as vandalism. that way if the person doesn't clean up his act he is banned with due process. in scinfaxi's case that whould mean: no edits talking to amazing, no edits talking about amazing, no edits on the CDF pages, no edits on Amazings user page. This is already at our disposal, and can be used with other users as well without setting dangerous precedents or adding new drama filled petitions. And has a 100% succes rate without limiting the user's constuctive editing possibilities.--Vista W! 08:14, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Not unless Amazing goes too. They are both equally responsible for the drama, thus, equal punishments. --Grim s 09:57, 10 May 2006 (BST)

I disagree. While Amazing is partly responsible for the drama, I think that if every one of his attackers just stopped attacking him, he would reciprocate. From what I can tell, nearly all arguments have been started by his attackers. Note the word nearly. --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 10:03, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I'd like to note that in my personal experience with Amazing, this has emphatically not been the case, on both counts. First, every argument I've had with him that I can think of, he initiated. I'll admit GANKBUS/Scinfaxi seem to have been a bit more actively provocative in dealing with him (and they're pretty damn funny about it, too), but that doesn't change the fact that Amazing does have a record of stirring up drama where it could have been easily averted (Wikigate, anyone?). Second, I've been doing my damnedest to give civility a shot over on the Main Page talk, and at least in in my eyes he has not yet become noticeably less abrasive as a result. --Jimbo Bob ASS 10:23, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Hmm... that's a good point. Maybe the main problem here is pride; neither side wants to apologise, as that would be admitting they were wrong... I think that if we were to cut the crap and get both sides (this includes you and me, Bob) to sincerely apologise and stick to the civility, maybe that would solve the problem. Which is another problem; I've seen countless apologies to/from Amazing, but only very few have been stuck to. The vast majority lapse straight back into arguing. I don't know. Just a thought. --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 10:29, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Well, you're right that I'm not so much with the apologizing (to Amazing et al, anyway - I have apologized for letting that crap muck up substantive pages), but that's because I genuinely don't believe that I was in the wrong, not becasue I just don't want to admit it. With regards to sticking to civility, the recent arbitration ruling seems to pretty much compel that. Pretty much just as well, though, as I was getting about as sick of all this wiki-drama as it's possible to get. Hopefully now we'll be able to grief Amazing/CDFers in peace, without getting dragged into Arbitration all the damn time (yes, I know that sounds funny - and no, I don't care). --Jimbo Bob ASS 01:00, 11 May 2006 (BST)
By the way, congrats on the reform or whatever I'm hearing about. You seem a lot nicer than I remember. --Jimbo Bob ASS 01:01, 11 May 2006 (BST)

Since Scinfaxi's actions clearly merit a banning anyway, what is this discussion all about? Evidence has proved him to be either racist/regionalist or incapable of distinguishing the boundaries of good taste, insulting, exhibiting stalker-like behavior, etc. Ban votes are NOT official in this wiki at ALL, but for this fellow they don't need to be. Normal procedure has eliminated him, and we'll see if he reforms after his ban. --LibrarianBrent 01:38, 11 May 2006 (BST)

I'll submit myself for a banning if the rest of CDF is banned as well. Also, banning scinfaxi without banning Amazing is probably the dumbest thing any of you have ever come up with . This is PROOF that hagnat is a secret member of CDF and trying to get GANKBUS to lose the war. Rasher 20:03, 11 May 2006 (BST)

ZOMG. YOU KNOW ? damn damn damn. I was thinking my conspiracy with Amazing to take over the Wiki was really secretive. Damn you Rasher, for knowing too much. Now i will have to kill you so you wont tell everybody about my plans to take over UD and sell it to some bearded midgets from Iowa, who would use this wiki as a portal for their naughty scams. --hagnat mod 20:19, 11 May 2006 (BST)
For discovering your plan, I warn you. Twice. Double warnings. Well, actually I'll give you a Warning + a Warning.75. 1.75 warnings for hagnat. I'm also hereby banning all players from Iowa. Rasher 22:44, 11 May 2006 (BST)


Made Zerger corperation a page basically existing to whine about the fact that he was zerging and got busted.--Mpaturet 02:42, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Burn him! He's a witch! Sonny Corleone 02:44, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Sorry, but I have to say this. And? This isn't vandalism. If you're really concerned about it, report him to Kevan for promoting Zerging. --SirensT RR 02:45, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Remember TheGreatHumoungous? This is similar--Mpaturet 03:05, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Mattiator is free to create any group he wishes. If he mantain this group, and follow the rules of the wiki, there is no reason why we should warn/ban him and delete this page. Of course, Kevan will prolly have a different opinion on this, and delete all his zerg accounts. --hagnat mod 03:33, 10 May 2006 (BST)


Already warned for doing this, and was asked/told by me MANY times to stop. I'd appreciate a direct step to banning since he's obviously (from his own words) "immune" to warnings, and will never stop. -- Amazing 02:07, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Banning a user for what seems to be a good faith edit to anyone not incessently paranoid is a rather harsh punishment. – Nubis NWO 02:10, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Read the text just a little more closely. -- Amazing 02:23, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Originally my edits were in good faith but maybe a little rude at the same time. Of course, now I'm just being a jerk and making a point about proactively banning someone from posting on someone elses user page. I've got a few (or maybe one) more warning left before a ban anyways (probably). If I am banned, I think I have a twin brother with remarkably simular posting habits. You do too, right Amazing? Scinfaxi 02:37, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I dismiss hagnat as an arbitrator, and I refuse this vandal banning session. He he. Scinfaxi 02:42, 10 May 2006 (BST)
HA-HA-HA. --hagnat mod 02:52, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Though I tend to agree with that sentiment - Any mod action? -- Amazing 02:54, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I think this is all that's really needed to give Sci a perminent ban. Sometimes it's not Misconduct to go outside the guidelines when someone's abusing the wiki to this extent, as with spam-bots, Sci has absolutely nothing to offer the site, save taking up space with useless text - and best of all he knows this and is doing it on purpose. -- Amazing 02:48, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I bet everyone involved in disputes with you should get a perma-ban Amazing. There is nothing in the rules stating that you can permanently ban anyone from posting on anyone elses talk pages. The comments should be judged on a case by case basis. Oh yeah, and didn't you create an alt. after being banned you fatass hypocrit? Plus, whose to say my comments were abusive? I merely said I did not trust you around young boys below the age of consent, that's all! Is that a sensitive issue with you or something? Scinfaxi 02:54, 10 May 2006 (BST)
All I heard above was masturbatory moaning. Anyone else? -- Amazing 02:58, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Careful Nash, this is one of the reasons I don't trust you around young boys. That and the flammable contents of your beard. Scinfaxi 03:02, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Scinfaxi received a half warning. There is no point banning him just for this edit. --hagnat mod 02:58, 10 May 2006 (BST)

I'll get a little more creative with edits later tonight. Still, point me to the rule/guideline that says I can't make good faith edits to Amazing's talk page. Scinfaxi 03:02, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Ok. here is the link, first line, the definition of vandalism: "an edit not made in a good-faith attempt to improve this wiki".. Seeing how you and amazing has a really long history of discussion and how you and him are involved in much of the drama that is somehow killing this wiki, i believe that you have no reason why to message Amazing, neither does Amazing has any reasons to message you, since probably nothing good will come out of this. I believe this should have been an arbitration decision made in the arbitration page, but, as for now, both Amazing and Scinfaxi are not allowed to message each other though their user talk pages. --hagnat mod 03:20, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Also, if you read this you will see that amazing owns any pages associated with his User: namespace. --hagnat mod 03:23, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Uhm. There's no such thing as a half-warning. -- Amazing 03:21, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Then it is a no warning. Scinfaxi just remains with his only warning that i gave him yesterday. This little edit of his is not worthy of a second warning, even though i asked him not to message you again. --hagnat mod 03:30, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Wow. This is nothing short of misconduct. I hesitate to bring a case, however. He's been warned for EXACTLY THIS, and you're ignoring another new case concerning the same thing. If that isn't misconduct, I don't know what is... -- Amazing 03:33, 10 May 2006 (BST)
You're incorrect then Hagnat. Amazing owns his page, and may do with it what he likes, but you cannot proactively ban me from making good faith edits on his page. Also, if I'm not correct, wasn't there a ruling in a case involving Amazing about archiving comments made on talk pages? Doesn't a user have to do that? Hmmmm... Scinfaxi 03:35, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Read the pages i just linked here. People can do whatever they want with thei user: namespaces pages, even removing other people messages whitout archiving. This is considered poor form, but valid. You CAN NOT remove other people comments from talk pages of group or open articles whitout archiving them somewhere (something i failed to do in the past one time). --hagnat mod 03:42, 10 May 2006 (BST)
I'd like to point out, that disrespecting someone's wishes not to post on thier talk page is far from "Good Faith" --SirensT RR 03:43, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Comments should be reviewed on a case by case basis. You cannot reasonably judge the intentions of any poster before he actually says something. I really have no qualms with Amazing deleting anything I say, but I'm not going to be proactively banned from anywhere on the wiki (even if it is just a stone's throw away from Amazing's beard). There is no guideline or rule that says you can simply ban a poster from posting on someone's talk page (especially since it's a medium for communication). An edit is an edit, and should be judged on that basis. Who wrote it is irrelevent if it's content is not abusive or made in bad faith. Scinfaxi 03:53, 10 May 2006 (BST)
This is where you and amazing dont understand this ruling, and why you didnt received a warning even though i said you not to message amazing in my previous ruling. There is times were rules bend, and any law enforcement body just closes his eyes and let things go unpunished. By default, any edit of yours in amazing's talk page, or any amazing edit on yours talk page is to be considered vandalism. It is up to the user to bring this violation to this page, and is up to the moderation staff to decide if they are going to warn the user or not. --hagnat mod 04:15, 10 May 2006 (BST)
That's the point. You cannot simply say that "by default" an edit I make on Amazing's page is vandalism, since it's a medium for communication. Suppose we decide to end our fueding, would a message indicating this be "by default" a bad faith edit? Scinfaxi 04:33, 10 May 2006 (BST)
reread the statement scinfaxi.--Vista W! 12:18, 10 May 2006 (BST)


Posted this in clear violation of Suggestions Criterion 13: Suggestions created entirely for the purpose of satire, insult, or comedy are considered vandalism and treated appropriately by moderators. If you want to post a joke suggestion put it on the Humorous Page.Nubis NWO 01:56, 10 May 2006 (BST)

You forgot his dummies one. Im not going to rule on this (Prior promises), i will say, however, that its going to be bloody hard to rule that to be a good faith edit. --Grim s-Mod 01:58, 10 May 2006 (BST)
Dummies could be seen as just a horrible suggestion, not necessarily 'satire, insult or comedy.' So I let it be. – Nubis NWO 01:59, 10 May 2006 (BST)
This idea is odd. It might be something made of satire, and if it this Mattiator should receive a warning, like any other who abuse the suggestion page. But, there is a chance that this is somehow a good suggestion: a suggestion page! Not for the game itself, but for the wiki. A page were people could suggest new features for the wiki, and we could vote on it. Some kind of policy voting, but for new features. That would be something i would have voted keep, even if it wasnt the right place to suggest :) --hagnat mod 03:03, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Previous movings.


From The Editing Guide:
"While the rest of the page is allowed to be as biased and full of propaganda as the group wishes, the top section (known as the "definitional section", or "introduction"), must be written from a Neutral Point of View, ie a view that does not forward any particular agenda."

Amazing's edits do seem to be slanted, but they're not that far off from the truth, I feel. If it's such a major thing, it should be edited instead, with the specific guidelines that an independent, if not Amazing, is satisfied that it is NPoV. I would suggest very strongly that Amazing stop editing the page, and that ASS members edit instead of remove. -Wyn (talk!) 08:50, 3 May 2006 (BST)

We have edited it. Thanks for the link. --BobHammero ASS 09:04, 3 May 2006 (BST)
My pleasure, anything to end the drama. Hope you weren't being sarcastic because if you were, I'll look the fool. -Wyn (talk!) 09:07, 3 May 2006 (BST)
Not at all. We appreciate your help, and we've edited the NPOV section to be actually neutral. If you ever want to start PKing, we'd love to have you join us. ;-) --BobHammero ASS 09:11, 3 May 2006 (BST)
Could be fun. I'm generally opposed to it but when I max out both of my characters, I might get bored. You never know. -Wyn (talk!) 09:30, 3 May 2006 (BST)
Hey, my character used to be a really helpful survivor. Defending malls, barricading, healing, mowing down the zombies, the whole deal. Then I was maxed out, and just started collecting XP.... Before you know it, here we are today. Just keep us in mind. --BobHammero ASS 09:37, 3 May 2006 (BST)
Of course. I'm honoured that you asked. -Wyn (talk!) 09:40, 3 May 2006 (BST)

Krazy Monkey

why does nobody use the talk page for discussion on cases, and whould anybody object if I moved everything to here?--Vista W! 19:11, 1 May 2006 (BST)

too late.--Vista W! 19:26, 1 May 2006 (BST)

Violating rule 13 of the suggestions page (Which is very clear on the matter):

Suggestions created entirely for the purpose of satire, insult, or comedy are considered
vandalism and treated appropriately by moderators. If you want to post a joke suggestion
put it on the Humorous Page.

Link --Grim s-Mod 19:25, 30 April 2006 (BST)

You don't have to report it here. Go ahead and warn him.--The General W! Mod 19:33, 30 April 2006 (BST)
I'm sorry, I wont do it again, I put it in the wrong place. I use firefox and had the wrong tab open. I was about to move it but Mr Grim comes in acting all Modish and tells me off for an honest mistake. Then he said my idea was shit. Krazy Monkey 19:39, 30 April 2006 (BST)
I never said your idea was shit. I said "shit like this", which is a figure of speech, even if slightly vulgar. --Grim s-Mod 19:58, 30 April 2006 (BST)
Ok, looks good faith, i'm not going to warn you. Actually, I thought your idea was quite funny. Try and take anything Grim says with a pinch of salt, he's often right but he can be a bit harsh.--The General W! Mod 19:51, 30 April 2006 (BST)
The rule states that "Suggestions created entirely for the purpose of satire, insult, or comedy are considered vandalism". Thank you for completely undermining it right off the bat. As written, good faith does not come into play. People should read the rules and follow them. --Grim s-Mod 19:56, 30 April 2006 (BST)
This is total overreaction and exactly the reason why I think codifying humorous suggestions as vandalism is a bad idea. The kid's sorry; let him go. Punishing people for shit like this just undermines the wiki community, makes them feel like they shouldn't even bother contributing, and creates bad blood.--Jorm 21:15, 30 April 2006 (BST)
Yes they should, but he's obviously sorry and I think a verbal warning is sufficient punishment for a first offence.--The General W! Mod 19:59, 30 April 2006 (BST)
And i think that you, by doing so, have set a dangerous precident that undermines the very reason behind the rule being implimented. Now we have to let absolutely everyone go who says sorry and says they wont do it again. --Grim s-Mod 20:06, 30 April 2006 (BST) Edit - Not to mention the fact that this precident has tro extend to every other clear cut vandalism case. So now someone like PQN can come in, blank a few hundred pages, promise never to don it again, apologise, and get away with it. Of course, im extending it to absurd lengths to make my point absolutely clear. --Grim s-Mod 20:12, 30 April 2006 (BST)
Grim, I think that what makes this not a big deal is this. He posted a humorous suggestion on the serious suggestion page. I voted humorous, you voted vandalism, he moved it to humorous suggestions. He apologized too. If every vandal apologized and fixed their vandalism, wouldn't that make life easier on everyone? -Banana¯\(o_º)/¯Bear 20:16, 30 April 2006 (BST)
We've always been lead more trough the spirit of the rule then the letter of the rule. the spirit of the rule is to combat bad-faith suggestions. That, it still does. you take it to literal.--Vista W! 20:18, 30 April 2006 (BST)
With no action the rule is dead. The spirit of that rule was to prevent those things from being posted. The threat of such edits being treated as vandalism was held up to enforce that rule. Now that the rule has been broken, and the threat not carried through, the rule is now officially meaningless, and a deadly precident has been set. Thats what pissed me off. Not the fact that its this person in particular has gotten away with something (I personally bear him no ill will), its the fact that the rule is now completely meaningless, and may as well be removed from the page, and the the fact that apologising and promising never to do it again is now a valid defense. A rule, if not enforced, is as if there was no rule at all. --Grim s-Mod 20:31, 30 April 2006 (BST)
Ok, so you are getting all worked up because I put a joke in the wrong place because the wrong tab on my browser was open. I meant to put it in humourous suggestions because I've already put some in there so I know where they go. I realised my mistake and set about correcting it. I have apologised and won't do it again. The next time you make a mistake, I'll go on about it for half an hour and we'll see how you feel. I know you are a moderator and have to "upholf the law" but I personally you're taking it a bit far. Krazy Monkey 20:34, 30 April 2006 (BST)
Grim, remember that the rationale for vandal banning is one of damage limitation, not punishment. We don't punish users for vandalism, we just warn/ban them to limit the damage. We certainly don't punish users for punishment's sake. At any rate, you may want to remember that all vandalism offenses are still predicated on the idea that a person is deliberately doing it, not mistakenly doing it. -- Odd Starter talkModW! 23:44, 30 April 2006 (BST)
I do not for a second buy into the argument put forward by the accused that it was the wrong tab. Why? Because he used the suggestions template instead of the humourous template. The humourous template is right at the top of the humourous page. When he looked at that page it would be one of the first things he would have seen. He had to scroll down a ways to get his mits on the suggestions template, and right down past the rules (So its more than reasonable to expect him to have looked at them, even in passing). He also had to scroll down to the bottom of the suggestions page and click the edit tab of a suggestion on which he had already voted (Keep, then changed to kill in a seperate edit), scroll down past all that, and insert his suggestion using the suggestion template. There is nothing accidental about that. --Grim s-Mod 02:17, 1 May 2006 (BST)
It's entirely possible he was on the wrong tab, which was scrolled down past the header. He copies the template, scrolls to the bottom without paying attention to the text, and edits the past suggestion header using the small "edit" link and posts his suggestion below it.
Don't be so paranoid. -- Amazing 03:35, 1 May 2006 (BST)
Well, the simple solution would be to see if he does it again. If he does it again, you've proven your case, and he can clearly be punished. If he doesn't do it again... Well, it doesn't prove anything, but it does show that clearly no punishment was required. Assume Good Faith, Grim. -- Odd Starter talkModW! 06:16, 1 May 2006 (BST)
But this begs the question; what if he does vandalize again in the same manner, e.g. Put another Humorous Suggestion into the Suggestion section, does he get warning number two? If so, there is no reason for him to fear a warning at all and the entire wiki would be served best to have it given to him, as it would provide motivation for him and others for more precise wiki-editing, especially on the "front porch" of the suggestion section. Therefore, I think that KrazyMonkey should recieve a simple warning, with maybe an expiration date of, say, three months? --Karlsbad 07:18, 1 May 2006 (BST)

Nice to see a Mod worse than me. Wonder how long his pass will last. -- Amazing 20:29, 30 April 2006 (BST)

If you have anything of value to add to this discussion, do so. If you feel like trolling, fuck off. --Grim s-Mod 20:31, 30 April 2006 (BST)
No you fuck off! Zomg Modination. Seriously, though - If you can't take someone pointing out that you're a bad moderator, be a good moderator. This is my comment, and I think it applies since you're rabidly attacking someone for what looks like a mistake. --Amazing 20:36, 30 April 2006 (BST)
As odd as this sounds I agree with Amazing, not all of it but a bit. Grim, take a break, get yourself a cupcake, and maybe some prozac. There is a diffrence between vandalism, and making an honest mistake. If we go about following the rules with no exception we'd never get anyone new because we'd have banned them all. If we applied this strategy to real life a good chunk of the population would be in jail for jaywalking. Just because we don't outright ban someone the first time they break the rules does not inhibit a mod's ability to enforce the rules. This is not the American legal system, we don't rely on precedent for all our judgements. A good moderator knows the diffrence between when they need to warn/ban someone, and when they need to remind or point something out that the person may have missed. Velkrin 22:03, 30 April 2006 (BST)
I have to agree with the sentiments of the above detractors, the job of moderator is one which requires a certain amount of subjective judgment in cases such as this. No one is perfect, we all make mistakes. What happened here was just that, and I imagine if you had simply asked him to move it, he would have happily done so. Instead, in what I have seen to be common fashion, you felt it necessary to blow things out of proportion and cause unnecessary grief for all who take the time to read this page. Thank you for that. --John Rove 23:02, 30 April 2006 (BST)
If you can point out where in the above i actually acted as a moderator... If i was acting as a moderator i would have warned him and been done with it. I did not because i swore that i would not rule on Vandal banning cases, only smash flat active vandals and adbots. Believe it or not, i like my word to have some value. On here i am acting as a user, who is interpreting the rules differently to others, nothing more, nothing less. Just because i have a difference of opinion on the rules does not make me "wrong", nor does it make me any number of bad things you may be thinking (Or good things for that matter). It is the fact that this rule clearly defines the vandalism in the case that i am arguing thus. And it is because that entire definition for the page has been ignored that i am arguing this, and it is because the rule in its entirety has been disregarded on its very first test run that i am arguing this. You may have noticed that i am abiding by the current decision, even if i strongly disagree with it. Or you may not have... Oh well, i cant expect those sorts of things to be picked up by everyone. Personally im sick and tired of this, and i wont comment on the issue again. --Grim s-Mod 02:17, 1 May 2006 (BST)
There seems to be a common misunderstanding between Mods and Users (occasially ones that aren't me!) concerning the fact that acting as a just another regular user does not mean you are just another regular user. You're in a position of fake authority on a website... STILL you (as all people controlling the quality of use for others) should really conduct yourself in a more reasonable and less threatening/bullying manner. Otherwise it just seems you're the same old troll, but in a new less-touchable position from which you rain down spite and hatred. -- Amazing 03:43, 1 May 2006 (BST)
Sigs On A Wiki, SOAW! If you actually read the points made rather than the signatures under them, you we would all have a far more enlightening time here. Have something to say otherwise? Take it to User Pages. --Karlsbad
Thats a widely misunderstood idea really. As per the wiki philosophy mods are not really in a position of authority, merely trust. As the guidelines say, "Moderator are provided with abilities beyond that of normal users on the expectation that these will be used to fulfil duties on the wiki that normal users are not capable of fulfilling. They are not provided on the expectation that Moderators are any "more worthy" or "more authoritative" than any other user. In short, a Moderator is to be treated as a normal user, with all the rights and responsibilities therein." --Zaruthustra-Mod 07:39, 1 May 2006 (BST)
Do Mods have to adhere to Arbitration rulings like a normal user? Anyway, this is a "have you cake and eat it, too" scenerio where it seems SOME moderators want to be above the "spirit" of acceptable conduct and still be considered "Normal Users" who can't be bothered about their poor behavior. -- Amazing 18:44, 1 May 2006 (BST)
When have you seen a mod demand more respect or authority for being a mod? I haven't. I have seen people respect moderator's opinions more than other user's sometimes, but that comes from the fact, that most people who become mods largely because they were trusted and respectd. Mod's are all still users. -Banana¯\(o_º)/¯Bear 18:55, 1 May 2006 (BST)
Weather or not a Mod verbally demands respect does not relate to my statement. -- Amazing 19:04, 1 May 2006 (BST)
It's peoples own choice whether they want to give us more respect or not. Just as it is their choice whether they give a normal user more respect or not.--The General W! Mod 19:12, 1 May 2006 (BST)
how about we move this to the talk page? discussions don't really belong here.--Vista W! 19:20, 1 May 2006 (BST)
Yes, this is getting ridiculously long.--The General W! Mod 19:22, 1 May 2006 (BST)
But the text is getting shorter. Velkrin 20:45, 1 May 2006 (BST)
It's a built-in wiki mechanism to cut short long, drawn-out, and painful debates. --Lucero Capell 20:47, 1 May 2006 (BST)
I meant text as in sentence length, not lines. Regardless, this bit of the argument seems to be done with. Velkrin 05:09, 2 May 2006 (BST)
This case brings up an overarching issue. In my opinion, people are getting far too. . . "litigious" for a freakin' wiki. It seems every edit is considered vandalism or brought to arbitration, where it then results in pages and pages of discussion and trolling and name-calling.
I think we need less of this, period. We don't need more controls or rules or guidelines since all *those* do is provide people with ammunition to create more vandal reports and arbitration calls.
This case is a perfect point. It's a fuckin' *suggestions page* for chrissakes. It's not a goddamned constitution or holy book, and it's about a freakin' *game*. Games are supposed to be *fun* and players should be able to be involved without paying the Great Wiki Gods The Correct Obesience. The suggestions page is complicated and confusing enough to a new user without adding the threat of "wiki law".
One would assume that people are adults here. Adults don't let crap like template attacks get them; they ignore them, not report them as "bad faith vandalism."--Jorm 20:58, 1 May 2006 (BST)
As far as I can tell, this rule, and many like it, is literally insane. I see absolutely no reason why this wiki should be a dictatorship, and I don't think anyone else would really like that either. If anything, we need less bureaucracy, less obscure rules, and less drama. Rules like this are a waste of time and simply serve to complicate the wiki even further for new users. --LibrarianBrent 05:51, 2 May 2006 (BST)
Are we still going on about this? All I did was accidently put a suggestion in the wrong place. You lot are acting as though I've blanked the entire flamming WIKI. Sheesh.--Krazy Monkey 16:25, 2 May 2006 (BST)

Convo from Amazing vandalism report

(Moved due to extreme lack of relevence)

Swfjmq.jpg Oh Snap!
Someone just got served!
--Mpaturet 06:12, 24 April 2006 (BST)
Will you stop that? It's never been funny to anyone by fools. It clutters the page and is merely trolling through template. Amazing SGP¦McZ¦CDF¦UDPD 06:16, 24 April 2006 (BST)
It amuses me, which seems to be a good enough reason for you to stick around on this wiki, judging from the amount of times you say "Continue trolling. It amuses me. Peons." and comments along those lines. Thus I feel justified in use of this all purpose template--Mpaturet 06:19, 24 April 2006 (BST)
I think I already said it amused fools, yes. Further comment should be on the Talk Page. -- Amazing SGP¦McZ¦CDF¦UDPD 06:28, 24 April 2006 (BST)
Oh is that what you said? I didn't understand what "It's never been funny to anyone by fools." meant, and I assumed you were just banging keys again. You know, I think you nearrly proved the hypothesis of putting enough monkeys in a room to write Shakespeare. Not that your posts have the literary value of The Bard, but you managed a nearly coherent sentence. Try using the preview button next time.--Mpaturet 06:33, 24 April 2006 (BST)


on 13 May, 2006, I got a little drunk and made some edits I shouldnt have to the wiki. The can be found here and here. At the time I was just trying to have fun, and wasn't thinkinh propertly. I have been told that tey were not right, and Iappologize for making them. --SirensT RR 06:08, 14 May 2006 (BST)

I would never have guessed you were/are drunk... :P --Cyberbob240CDF - Arb - W! 06:11, 14 May 2006 (BST)
I'm drunk! NO NO, REALLY! I'm so drunk! Look, I'm going to spell drunk without the r, dunk! I'm so dunk! Wooooo, I'm drunk! You see! Also, I'm sorry for those edits made when I was drunk. I mean really, I got so drunk I couldn't see! PLEASE, PAY ATTENTION TO ME! Scinfaxi 22:32, 14 May 2006 (BST)
I'm sorry, but I don't get to use getting drunk as an excuse, and you're not allowed to either. Please sit down and shut up. --SirensT RR 23:38, 14 May 2006 (BST)
Note for morons: Yes, I know he was being sarcastic. So was I. --SirensT RR 23:38, 14 May 2006 (BST)
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