UDWiki talk:Open Discussion/Project?

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Working on a few gnome-y things over the past while (and noticing the stress most of us place on these things, especially in the number of times it's been mentioned on A/PM recently), I've come to a realisation - there's a lot less game info sitting on this wiki than you'd expect. There's a lot of events, groups, personal projects, etc - but things like history or mechanics are often overlooked. As such, I'm hoping to get a project organised (possibly with shiny templates), to boost one of these areas. Areas I'm thinking could do with work are:

  • Location stubs
  • Game history
    • Past events
    • Timeline?
  • Skills and game mechanics
    • More number-crunching/specifics worked out?

Personally I'm leaning towards something based on the game history - to begin with, perhaps creating a Timeline of In-Game Events page that sorts these things in order and provides a nice index, from which to look at things like the Big Bashes, the Malton Murder Awards, Bashing Back: The Battle of Pitneybank, Silent Night Slaughter, etc etc; followed by a movement to clean up and expand these pages when and if necessary. Of course, there's plenty of other things that could be done, but essentially I'm looking to get half a dozen of us, or more if more are interested, all gnoming in the same direction so as to help flesh out the game-relevance of the wiki some more. Suggestions? Ideas? Volunteers? Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 20:40, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I like the idea of a timeline, and resources like the zombie imbalance thing would be good. One thing I would say is that there should be separate timelines for both in-game and metagame events - it would be a bit odd to see Big Bash 3 and the Second Mayor of Malton election on the same timeline.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 20:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Three timelines, maybe (Updates/In-Game/Meta-Game), with a central Timeline page to disambig the three? Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 20:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
I'd be on board, though I'm not the best source for historical stuff. I'd be willing to flesh out some of the Skills and Game Mechanics stuff. Make this place more of a wiki and less of one big fucking group advert/meta gaming hub. ~Vsig.png 20:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Don't we already have an updates one? Ask Ross, he's the one who updates it if it does exist.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 20:49, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
You mean the game updates? They're always posted in news. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 21:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
News --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 21:16, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Do you mean the impact of game updates on the game in a historical sense? ~Vsig.png 21:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Might be worth looking at. Things like ruins, interference, the headshot changes, etc, could all have paragraphs or more written about their impact. Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 21:54, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
This is the page I was thinking of.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 21:56, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
This is a pretty interesting project, and it would be good to get some of the historical stuff that is currently buried out into the open. The History of Barhah timeline would be a good place to start. I could probably help fill in a lot of the 2005-2006 stuff, and some of the recent stuff, but I won't really be around for a couple of months. Katthew would probably be a lot better at the early-early-early 2005 stuff than I would. This is def. going on my watchlist though. -MHSstaff 04:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Random Stuff

Zombie skills. Both me and Mis have started attempts at it. Thats a big area. Also, do we have a page on all the stuff binoculars do? Might be worth adding. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 21:22, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Defile could use its own article. Binoculars could use some expansion. Actually, Useful Items in general could use some expantion as well as the rest of the Item subpages. ~Vsig.png 21:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Being Massively anal, tall monuments could be completely listed --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 21:33, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


Any look at mechanics and their strategical implications should probably tie heavily into Guides and Tactics. In particular, I've been eyeing AP efficiency for a while. APs are the key resource in UD that needs to be wisely spent, yet there isn't a single good resource on that, just scattered views on isolated topics as headshotting zombies outside or resetting ghost towns. Aichon had once started something, but now that he has withdrawn from the wiki withdraws from the wiki is less around, it should probably be picked up by someone else. I could definitively work on a good portion of that (especially on the death-cultist AP efficiency angle, on which I already spent a lot of thought in my guide), but would welcome help on such a broad topic. -- Spiderzed 22:05, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

My departure is a work in progress, and this will likely be my only comment here since I don't want to get roped into something else right now, especially so since I've been aware the problem Mis talked about since my own A/PM bid. Anyway, if you want to revamp it, Ross and I talked about some issues a bit (definitely worth a read for anyone considering redoing the search rate tables which are woefully outdated), but here's what I'd do now:
  1. Move the walls of numbers and ratios into an appendix-type thing at the end, rather than being in the middle, and move the analysis and suggestions up to take its place.
  2. Replace the walls of numbers and ratios with well-crafted tables in the appendix.
  3. Take into account reloading weapons in the survivor numbers.
  4. Disregard numbers accounting for characters without max skills. The game is mature, and the target reader of the article isn't a newb player.
  5. Discuss syringes as an alternative form of currency that supersedes AP in certain situations.
  6. Discuss real-time siege tactics, which should probably get its own section (or its own article?):
    • Only barricade to X level (VSB, HB, or VHB?), never EHB. Let the other, non-real-time survivors bump it beyond that.
    • Don't repair the barricades immediately unless they drop below Y level, that way other survivors have a chance to chip in, otherwise the real-time folks do all of the work and burn the AP that would be better spent later.
    • Discuss the idea of IP hits as currency, and determine optimum refresh rates depending on the size of the real-time group that's coordinating to check the barricades.
  7. Provide a scathing review that thoroughly discourages the use discussion of safehouses in its own section.
  8. Figure out some way to quantify the values of Feeding Groan vs. Bellow and offer a comparison or a rule of thumb for when to use each (it might be as simple as "Bellow whenever you can, Groan otherwise", honestly).
  9. Make the suggestions more readable/approachable somehow. Might need a drastic rewording or a breaking down into different sections. Maybe come up with an acronym for the key takeaway ideas of each side?
  10. Add stuff for death cultists, ruined suburbs, and green suburbs.
  11. Provide a better accounting for travel times between locations (referring specifically to travel times as a factor of the cost in reviving and being revived)
And now you can see why I never got around to finishing the thing off. I had way too many ideas for things that need to be in there, or else would be useful to have in there, and no desire to actually do the number crunching myself. I only ever wrote as much as I did since I was putting off doing something big that was due the next day, and wasting a few hours on this seemed like a better use of my time right then (yay for procrastination). The topic has always interested me though, and I wish more people would put some thoughts down in writing on the subject. I tried to write down the best practices I knew of at that time, as well as the best practices that the numbers showed me, but death culting is an obvious omission of mine, and I'm sure it's not the only one. That guide should be a living document that changes over time to reflect the best practices that have been discovered, rather than something stale that was useful in a few situations a long time ago.
Also, I'd have loved to have had something about AP efficiency in real-time battles that I could've pointed people to during Blackmore 4(04). The problem we were having inside Blackmore was that we were always running out of either AP or IP hits and had to make the best use of them, but responding to every little threat, rather than allowing other survivors to handle them, was killing the efficiency of our small real-time coordinating group. In "real-time sieges", there's probably only ever 5-20% of the folks at the siege actually coordinating in real-time, yet they do a disproportionate amount of the work, so making them more efficient would be extremely helpful. Aichon 03:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I went ahead and made some of the formatting suggestions Aichon made to get the ball rolling. I noticed that AP usage for Kills using a knife are missing. That may be intentional. I didn't do anything with Appendix B, yet but will build a table for it at some point. It probably also needs a once over to make sure my changes flow into the article correctly. I'm pretty sure it could be made more presentable to the reader. Hope it is what Aichon was expecting.~Vsig.png 20:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Mechanics Article Expansion

I think a good way to go about this is to assemble a list of pages (categorize maybe) that need to be expanded. I'm looking at Action Points, Searching, Repair...articles which could clearly use some expansion. Category:Glossary might be a good place to start. ~Vsig.png 22:27, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm starting to see how this might all come together. I just made a somewhat hefty expansion to Action Points, making sure to include points about the history and tactics involved. I see this project tapping the historians, the tacticians and the gnomes to improve on and create new articles that tie together game history, tactics and the mechanics that drive them. I can see where a historical overview of game updates would be useful since finding the history in News was a little difficult. And we're lacking in guides that really deal specifically with Action Points (I found exactly one guide). I'm sure this is true with a lot of game mechanics. Is this along the same idea you had Mis? ~Vsig.png 07:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Exactly. Basically anything that help improve the sense of being, as Link says below, an Urban Dead Wikipedia. Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 15:23, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Gotcha. I think you may have the basis of the project name thanks to Link. UDPedia or some such variation. ~Vsig.png 15:53, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I had a similar idea years ago...

...as a n00b, to research and create a resource of the game's history (NPOV and all.) Basically make it an "Urban Dead Wikipedia."

That said, I never really had the drive, or the knowledge to actually do this. If you go ahead with something like a "UD History section" or a "UD History timeline," I'll lend a hand, as it's an area where the Wiki could really use some more content. Linkthewindow  Talk  12:33, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi I'm back (hopefully). And just as Aichon is leaving. What timing.

So I've been trying to working on scholarships (on account of being unable to afford the schools I'm looking at) and really need something to help motivate me into the necessary creative writing. I believe event/history write-ups would probably be a good way to help get me into the writing habit. Maybe brute-force template location pages and do some location write-ups too. ~ Red Hawk One Talk | space for lease 05:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah right, we all know that you're really Aichon, strugglign under the strain of running two accounts.--Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 08:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Does that mean that we're both Maps too? Aichon 17:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Objection!.gif OBJECTION!
Axe Hack has an objection.
I'm sure there's some decisive evidence that indicates you're both Red and Maps, Aichon! ;) --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 17:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm Maps. I'm also Karl. Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 17:29, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Guize, I have a confession. I am Kevan. ~Vsig.png 17:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
But Kevan is just a Finis zerg. Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 17:33, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Objection!.gif OBJECTION!
Axe Hack has an objection.
Mis, if that is the case, then you have just admitted to being Aichon! As for you, Vapor, where is the proof? There is no decisive evidence at this time that would indicate so, Vapor! Therefore, you must be lying! Unless you yourself are a zerg, as Mis himself had just indicated! --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ #nerftemplatedsigs 17:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Um... TO ARBIES! Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 17:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I NEED NO PROOF, MORTAL. I AM OMNIPOTENT. ~Vsig.png 17:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you all for your input. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 21:00, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


Moving onward. Are we still interested in this timeline idea? Also, worth noting, since this OD was started, Ghost Town and Barricades now are much more pertinent articles than they were before, so there's something to go on. If we want to do this timeline then I can organise what needs done and get it planned and going. Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 23:32, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I started a concept page of what is a very literal representation of an Urban Dead timeline that we could expand on. That may or may not be what you had in mind when you started the OD. Currently, it has room for game updates, the impact they had on the game and an area for historical events. Weather only historical events should be added should be discussed. Certainly there are some events worth adding (Like Big Bash and possibly Escape) that aren't considered historical. Hostorical Groups could also be worked in. I'm wondering if important wiki projects could be added as well (like Danger Map, Location Danger Reports, Suggestion System), though it might be hard to track down specific dates for the older projects.
As far as game mechanic updates, I think a style guide might be appropriate. I've expanded Action Points, Revivification and Barricades (the latter with great help from Trips) and have sort have stayed to a specific style. I'm thinking that a History section should be added to most of these pages and also a "Guides and Tactics" section. Anything else? A list of wanted and worked pages could be put together, too. Let's put this project into motion. ~Vsig.png 06:35, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

What's the consensus on in-game/meta-game events for such a timeline? What should definitely be added, and what should definitely be omitted? Strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others 20:43, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Historical Events. --RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 20:44, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
There aren't many of them. ~Vsig.png 20:46, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
what about historical Groups? Their foundation dates maybe? Oh and what about major wiki improvements like status map, suggestion system, the project where every location was given a page (can't remember the name). ~Vsig.png 21:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
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