User:DanceDanceRevolution/ds

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Making AP's More Abundant

Timestamp: Chase1993 18:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Type: Entire Game

Scope: Entire Game

Description: Okay, I may seem stupid, and this has probably been asked many times before, but WHY do we have so few AP's and WHY do they take so long to recharge? This makes the game EXTREMELY annoying to people who are not entirely dedicated to the game. When I recommended the game to my friends, they all replied in various ways this basic statement: "What the hell is this? It's not even a game; all you can do is spend 5 minutes max everyday on it." I myself enjoy the game, but it actually keeps me awake at night wondering WHY the game is like this. I propose that these changes be made: 1. Player's maximum AP points increased to 100 2. AP points recharge at the rate of 1 every 5 minutes 3. After a player logs out, there character would stay online for 30 minutes before disapperaing I understand that this would change some of the fundamental aspects of the game, but I think it would make the game much funner for all, and would CERTAINLY make it easier for casual gamers to play, get something accomplished, and enjoy the game. I would like people to comment on my ideas, and ways they could be tweaked, as I realize that other things may need to be changed as well for these changes to be feasible.

Discussion (Making AP's More Abundant)

No. This makes individual players way too powerful, and you seem to miss the point that UD is meant to be a five-minutes-a-day kind of game. There are plenty of other ways to use up your free time between UD sessions, metagaming/joining a group being one of them. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 18:23, 26 October 2009 (BST)

Well, I'm not entirely opposed to increasing the max AP. But recharging at 1AP per 5 minutes is way too fast, 288AP per day is just overkill. As for everyone disappearing after 30 minutes, how the hell are zombies going to get food and XP when they break into buildings and there is no one there to attack? - User:Whitehouse 18:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Too many questions. Even the worst suicide repairs ever recorded (160 ap plus I think is the highest ever done) could be completed in a day. And zombies could ruin everything if players idled out so quickly. Also would probably cripple the server. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Folks in my group have done 220+AP repairs, I believe, and there are others who have done larger ones.

Anyway, getting back to the bigger issue, these changes would not make the game more casual friendly; they would actually do the opposite. Also, the entire game is balanced around a slow recharge rate and a limited max AP, otherwise people can do too much before others log back in again. There's a similar zombie game that recharges AP every 7.5 minutes. That game seems to be unbalanced though, in that people can go on killing sprees while others are recharging, and your suggestion is way beyond what that other game has. It would ruin the tempo and nature of the game and upset all of the balances done over the years, since AP is everything. So, no. Just no. —Aichon— 19:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: TO ALL OF THE ABOVE Of course, the 30 minute after logout could be changed. Perhaps 2 hours would be better. As to letting people accomplish way to much while other people are logged out, that's the idea. If people could accomplish alot, more people would be encouraged to play. It would obviously change the whole style of the game, and I didn't expect my suggestion to be universally well recieved, but come on, don;t you ever wish you could spend hours playing at a time? In my opinion, Urban Dead is the best game out there, and i've played WOW. I just wish I could play Urban Dead more often than I can now. -- Chase1993

Hours spent playing UD being fun? Sure. Would that be fair to other players? Definitely not. There's your crux. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 19:41, 26 October 2009 (BST)

How do people talk to each other in-game if they disappear quickly after logout? Or heal each other, for that matter? How does one justify a zombie being able to singlehandedly take a building from EHB to ruin in a day, even with a survivor or two inside? Or, on the flipside, justify singlehandedly barricade strafing half of a suburb to VSB in a day? These changes would create lots of empty buildings and even more boredom since people wouldn't be able to find each other.

If you'd like to play UD for longer periods of time, there are already ways to go about doing that. Multiple characters, planning out in detail how to spend AP, meta-gaming with others, and participating on the wiki are just a few I've found. I can spend several hours a day on UD-related things if I so choose, but I like that I only need to spend 5 minutes a day. This game is not supposed to play like WoW. —Aichon— 20:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

If people could accomplish a lot more than they can now, people would be driven out of the game. As it is, it's possible to survive the night in one place. With your suggestion, it would be difficult for even that to be achieved. --Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}19:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: To post directly above: In what way would it be impossible to survive the night in one place? If you dissapear 30 minutes - 2 hours after logging out, you can't be killed. I KNOW what I'm saying would drastically change the game. RE: To BobBoberton's Post: How would it not be fair to other players? If everyone played more often, then it would be fair to everyone. Also, there would be much more live action. Players would mainly be combating other active players (of which there would be many more if these changes took place), instead of always just attacking logged-out characters. As is, there is almost NO live action. The main purpose of my suggestion is to change this. -- Chase1993

Real-time combat isn't fair either. Faster internet connection? You win. Zombie with Infectious Bite? Either your opponent flees or uses lots of resources. Human? Run away with free running! And it doesn't make it fair if a player can kill half a dozen others every day - now, you're lucky to kill one player a day on average (taking stocking and cade-smashing into the equation). I could easily foresee a zombie victory (since a human one is nigh-impossible) where players just log in every, what, nine hours or so and kill five times as many other players a day. Zombies get stronger with more volume - as in how every well-coordinated large horde is always successful in a mall/NT siege. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 20:13, 26 October 2009 (BST)

(dang edit conflicts) There would be less active players at any given time because of the fast disappearance and less live action with your changes (though live action would make up a larger percentage of encounters). Having played a game that works similarly to what you're describing, I can speak from experience. You don't see enemies for a few days, then suddenly wake up to find out that someone killed you in the night (as well as all of the other friendlies nearby). It's a giant game of hide-and-seek, with no sieges or close calls or real strategy, which is what UD would become with these changes. And see my earlier issues about FAKing and talking. —Aichon— 20:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: Firsty, Aichon, again, you would NOT wkae up and find yourself dead because as I have said many times before, your character will disapper 2 hours after logging out. Secondly, you WOULD see enemies, because more people would log on and play. To BobBoberton: FASTER INTERNET CONNECTION??!!! I've played Urban Dead on 33.3Kbs, which is THE slowest connection availabe, and it worked just as fast as it does on my current connection. Again, focus on what you said: " you're lucky to kill one player a day on average". THAT'S what I want to change. What you need to understand is that of course, it would DRASTICALLY change the game (and to be frank, I don't think it's a change that will happen, because of server issues). As to it being a good change if it were possible, obviously my idea would have to be majorly tweaked, however, I cannot amagine anyone NOT being happy with the core element of my idea: being able to play for longer periods of time. -- Chase1993

I was speaking from experience with another game that's similar to your idea, and yes, you do wake up dead often. And no, you would not see more people, because 2 hours is not appropriately scaled to the AP recharge rate (do the math for it...a 12-24 hour timeout would be more appropriate, but still problematic). Also, no, that is not the slowest connection. And finally, if you can't imagine anyone not being happy, then you're clearly not listening to what anyone is saying. —Aichon— 20:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

(yay edit conflicts) Not wake up dead? With players getting max AP every eight hours or so (1 per 5 minutes), there's a very good chance that yes, you will wake up dead. I don't know about you, but on occasion UD is quite slow for me. It might be because the server's in the UK and I live in the US; it might be because of heavy server load at the time. Either way, sometimes UD is sluggish - and when that happens, it can be fatal with regards to real-time combat. And as stated before, killing more than one other player a day makes players too powerful, and the game severely unbalanced. UD's not broken, why "fix" it in this manner? --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 20:47, 26 October 2009 (BST)

How long have you been playing? I'm guessing sub-3 months. Otherwise you'd know that entire suburbs would go down in minutes if unlimited play was allowed, MOB would take entire suburbs in a strike, Mall Tours would be over in an hour and if a group like The Dead came from another community it would be the end of Malton. Your idea would kill the game for people who wanted to play casually, a hardcore strata of players would emerge on the zombie side and literally win the game through attrition. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 20:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I am unhappy. With characters disappearing every two hours, how could humans ever win a siege? More importantly, this does nothing to get survivors back on their feet more quickly. The sticking point will still be revives. OR would you be happy having to log in every two hours to stop your character at a revive point disappearing. Finally, this punishes all those players who aren't online 24/7. Urban deads simplicity is that it can be played in 5 minutes. And this is a zergers dream. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: To Iscariot, no I am not a long term player -- I have been playing the game for about 3-4 months now. However, I do LOVE the game. Is there no conceivable way that the game could be improved to let people play for long periods at a time? Secondly, in what way does it punish players that aren't online 24/7? They wouldn't get as much XP as others? Of course they wouldn't! In ANY MMORPG, the players that DO play are the ones that get to advance the levels, etc. It is SUPPOSED to be rewarding to the players that play often. That's what MMORPG's are TRYING to do. But at the same time, the dissapear 2 hours after logout would make sure that casual players can stay in the game without being killed. Of course they wouldn't advance as fast; that's the point. Also, of course it would make the game faster paced. It would change the gameplay. I don;t expect hardcore UD players to be entirely happy with it. But it WOULD make for faster gameplay, and more importantly, it would allow people to truely immerse themselves in Urban Dead. TO ALL ABOVE POSTS: Maybe I'm missing something, but why is it that everyone is saying it would nerf humans and make zombies too powerful? I simply don't understand the logic. -- Chase1993

Learn to sign your posts, and fast if you're going to engage in walls of text debates. Four months? Four whole months? There are players on this page who have played for four years, and they're going to give you the same opinion everyone else has given you. This is a bad idea and will hurt people. Given you weren't here, The Dead were an organised group of 1200 people from an external forum from all timezones of the planet. They could easily have people active 24 hours a day and given that the refresh time from the server isn't huge on UD, with limitless AP they could monitor the interior and exterior of every building in the city permanently. It doesn't matter that you'd idle in two hours, you'd be found long before then, a post made on their communication networks and you'd be dead five minutes after, as simple as. That's before we even get onto Extinction, spying add-ons and auto-scripts. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 21:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Because if people dissapeared after 2 hours, zombies could ruin buildings without having to kill the humans inside the buildings. If this happened, the zombies could ruin all the NTs in a suburb in a day or two. The surivors would then be unable to revive anyone.--Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}21:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Because the zombies are better organised. Its no secret that of the top 5 groups in urban dead, usually 4 are zombies. Also your point is that if people idle out more quickly, they won't be killed as much. What's that about? Its a zombie apocalypse. Dying is part of the process. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep. Zombies can't ruin buildings until after all survivors are out of it, and your suggestion would make it so that there would be less survivors in buildings since they'd be disappearing constantly. Sieges, which happen all over the city, all the time, at very small scales, only work because humans can act as meatshields once the zombies break in (which they already do on a routine basis). If the meatshields are gone, the buildings will fall while people have disappeared. They'll come back to ruined buildings and a lack of revives if they were unfortunate enough to be one of the few that hadn't disappeared when it was attacked.

As someone who has been playing the game for even less time than you, I'd suggest checking up on some of the historical stuff that happened in 2007 and 2008 with Extinction and the Salt the Land ideas. Now imagine if the zombies had no limits. The game would end, which is no fun for anyone. —Aichon— 21:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

*Cough* Eve Online *cough* Why don't you create more characters? This is supposed to be more of a quick, time killer game anyways. Well, the game that is, not the wiki or forums... --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 21:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: Again, I still do not understand WHY zombies would win. If zombie groups are more organized it just means that human players will need to get BETTER organized, which would actually add elements of gameplay. Again, obviously elements of gameplay would need to be changed, and I don't have all the answers. I accept that in a gameplay debate, I cannot stand up to many of you who have played the game for years. However, I have played for several months, and I cannot understand HOW it could possibly be SUCH a big issue in gameplay. I mean, there MUST be a way to increase gameplaying time. -- Chase1993

Organization won't matter if all it takes is 1-2 zombies online at the same time to break open any building in the game, kill all of the survivors, and ruin it, all in less than 5 minutes. There's no way survivors could react in time. If those 1-2 zombies are all it takes to ruin any building, you wouldn't even need organization of the zombies...ferals alone could hold every TRP in the game, or else re-ruin them on a daily basis for relatively cheap. Especially so when compared to the cost of reviving the dead, finding gennies, finding fuel, clearing the zeds, repairing the building, and re-barricading it. —Aichon— 23:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: Also, one thing people seem to be forgeting is that there will still be humans in the game. Everybody's saying things like "Zombies will run wild" and "Zombies will destroy everything" and "Zombie groups will takeover". Um... there WILL still be human players in the game. As there are MORE human players than zombies, I don't see how it could work in the zombies favour. Humans could do exactly the same as the zombies could. -- Chase1993

Not sure why people are saying that either. Possibly because zombies are an attacking force and survivors have to react to attack, thus zombies have an easier time of coordination than survivors (this is thinking on an out of game level, just so people don't tear my apart for misrepresenting who has best in game communication options), because survivors have to wait for the attack to occur, then plan and assemble a reaction force. But even then, once an attack has taken place, it would not be hard for solo survivors to quickly repair and re-barricade a substantial portion of what has been destroyed. As zombies could not hold every building due to insufficient amounts of coordinated zombies, many buildings would remain empty, just waiting for a barricade straffer to come along. A barricade straffer could easily manage 20 buildings at VSB level. Costing him 200AP, and costing the zombies 800AP to undo his work. Anyhow, the changes you have suggested are way too drastic for most peoples liking. It's just too much of a change to something that works rather well right now. - User:Whitehouse 23:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

If a human finds a zombie and kills it, the zombie stands up for a worst case loss to zombie AP of 15AP, or a typical cost of 6AP, since most zombies get Ankle Grab early on and most survivors have Headshot. If a zombie finds a human and kills him, the human, in the best case, costs his side 13AP (two ?rise, one revive, and one search). And that's assuming that the reviver found the syringe on his very first search and that the revivee has Ankle Grab. The more likely outcome is that he doesn't have Ankle Grab and that the reviver had to spend 8AP on average to find a syringe, yielding a loss of 38AP to the survivor side, and that's still ignoring any AP the revivee gains while capped as a zombie or AP spent traveling to revive points, NT facilities, or elsewhere. Reviving is a major drain on gross survivor AP.

The reason why this matters is because this is not a game of zombies against humans, but, rather, zombies against barricades. Barricades are life to humans, and rendering them useless by giving everyone so much AP means that it becomes a straight-up war of attrition between the two sides. And in a war of attrition, humans simply cannot keep up because of the AP costs involved with reviving and the scarcity of the syringes involved during emergencies. Plus, the AP cost would actually go up even higher in my earlier equations if a lit NT facility wasn't handy, such as when they're ruined. If nothing else, the zombies would simply win the AP war, resulting in new zombies being created faster than they could be revived all across the city. —Aichon— 23:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Not if the zombies broke into buildings where there was nobody to kill (likely to occur if players disappear after 30 minutes). The fact is if the changes were implemented, the zombies wouldn't be able to kill enough survivors for it to destroy the survivor population. If the zombie players could be on 24/7, I might agree, but as they can't, I don't really think this would aid either side hugely, just make the loses and gains increase in size, and frustrate newbies who can not find targets to help increase their XP quickly, be it by killing, healing or reviving. - User:Whitehouse 23:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

They don't have to break into every building. They just need to crack open the NTs and keep them ruined most of the time. After that, they've won. Just picking off a few survivors here and there would bleed the survivors' needle supply dry, which is a win condition for the zombies. And since there hasn't been talk of increasing encumbrance limits to match the greater AP, survivors simply couldn't pack enough needles to keep up with the increase in deaths. And we still haven't had an answer on how survivors would revive/FAK/talk to people that have disappeared. —Aichon— 23:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Because survivors would be safe while inactive, the focus of the game would shift. Zombies would become the defensive force, keeping survivors out of buildings where they can get resources. Survivors would become the strike forces, coordinating attack times, stocking up on supplies and scattering to safe "idle" locations. Due to zombies also idling out, these strike teams would have no problem repairing the buildings and getting what they needed from them. Zombies would need to be logging in every hour to keep a significant presence in buildings they want to keep from survivors, while survivors no longer need to worry about the zombies eating them once "idled". As you just added on before I could finish this: Interaction would suffer from this, no talking, hardly and healing, reviving having to be coordinated. All in all it's a bad game change. I'm just not convinced that either side would "win" because of it. - User:Whitehouse 00:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Babah zambahz don't get anything to eat, newbie breathers don't get anything semi-damaged to fix with their minimal skills, tactical resource points get ruined (original poster: that means they can't be re-barricaded until they're repaired, and they can't be repaired until all the zombies are gone) quickly and easily, and people are encouraged and rewarded (practically required) for spending many hours of their life per day on this. This is just a bad idea all around, and no amount of tinkering will make it good. Chase1993, don't even worry about Urban Dead right now. I want you to read this, think about what it means, and then take a serious look at your life and how you're living it.--Mold 03:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: Aichon, and most everyone else: I STILL cannot understand HOW there would be no barricades left. Human players can (almost) just as easily repair the barricades as zombies can attack them. Now, did you know that there are 2 times more active humans than active zombies? The humans would be barricading MUCH faster. Again, to Aichon: About the syringe thing, etc, I've said many times that I know many things would have to be revamped for my idea to work. If my idea were implemented, DRASTIC changes to the rest of the game would have to occur. Seeing a way my idea does not fit in with such and such aspect of the game is not good enough reason to shoot it down, as I'm not suggesting it be implemented EXACTLY as I have put it down. I simply would love to see some changes that would make the game more friendly to players who want to play all more often. To Mold: Qoute, "and people are encouraged and rewarded (practically required) for spending many hours of their life per day on this. This is just a bad idea all around". Um... what about my posts (and life in general) have you been missing?! It's SUPPOSED to encourage and reward those people! The point of ANY MMORPG IS to reward those people. That's how it goes with ANYTHING in life. I practice parkour; do you think that I got out of bed one day and just decided to do parkour? EMPHATICALLY NO! I spent YEARS of my life training EVERY day. Life is designed to reward those who work hard at something. That's the WHOLE point of my game changes. Unlike it is now, the hardcores SHOULD be able to gain XP faster than the casual gamers. I mean, haven't you played ANY other MMORPG, or any other game (or practice any real-life skill)??!! If you had, you would know that working hard and consistently at it is par for the course. (Also, that link really wansn't as clever as you think it is) -- Chase1993

Who said anything about being clever? I'm not here to show off, and I don't need to entertain you. You need help kid, seriously, and if you can't see why, I hope somebody nearby has the sense to stage an intervention for you.

Regarding your inability to see how there would be no barricades left, it's pretty simple: this suggestion makes ruining buildings and keeping them ruined much easier, and ruined buildings cannot be barricaded until they're repaired.

To get back closer to the main point of contention, no, MMOs are not necessarily about sitting on your ass all day grinding for XP and gold, greens or whatever the game uses to show how much time you've wasted. Many of them present themselves that way, and apparently that's a thing about MMO games that you like. That doesn't mean MMO games that don't do things that way -- and in fact go out of their way to discourage players trying to do it that way -- need to be dragged into conformity with all the treadmills that make you fatter. Urban Dead isn't that kind of game, the creator of the game has clearly intended for it not to be that kind of game, and taken steps to ensure it doesn't become that kind of game. Even if you were gaining any support for the idea here (which you clearly aren't), it's not going to fly because it goes so hard against what Urban Dead is. You're barking up the wrong tree trying to drum up support for turning UD into WoW with zombies.--Mold 07:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POST: Firstly, my friend, I'm not trying to make this into a war of insults against each other, but I MUST question your logic. In WHAT way do I need help? From my point of view, it is YOU who have been GREATLY deprived of an important aspect of life: working hard to achieve something. If people want to spend their time playing MMORPG's, so be it. However, you clearly do not understand my situation. Why you do not understand I CANNOT think. I have cleary stated that I practice parkour. Perhaps you don't know what prakour is? Look it up. I can assure you, however, that parkour requires a GREAT amount of time OFF of your ass. Therefore, my life seems pretty balanced, as I have time to get outside with my club and partake of exercise, and also have time to play games. It's YOU that should be seeking help, and maybe should START putting your mind to a goal in life. Insults over, I understand that many hardcore UD players would not like the fact that it requires people to play more often, as playing for small periods is something that makes UD what it is. I still think that if there were a way to let players who want to play for longer periods of time do so, it would please more gamers out there, which is the general idea. -- Chase1993

I know what parkour is, and I know that a lot more people claim to practice it than actually do. Something to do with its trendiness in sandbox video games, no doubt. Whether or not you actually practice it is no concern of mine. The issue we're having here is this: Your suggestion is dead on arrival, and people before me have quite clearly pointed out why it's no good, and you don't care. This implies that the problem isn't actually with the suggestion, but rather, with you. I don't really care why you want to turn Urban Dead into World of Warcraft with zombies, I'm telling you it's not going to happen, full stop. Your inability to hear or understand what people are saying to you, and your celebration of the worst (at times lethally bad) aspect of MMOs as integral and good and able to teach valuable lessons about life, implies you have dangerous psychological problems and may wind up hurting or killing yourself with them over time. I mean, if you want to go hurt yourself, that's none of my business, but I wish the windup toward your breakdown and suicide attempt could happen somewhere other than Developing Suggestions.--Mold 08:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Seeing a way my idea does not fit in with such and such aspect of the game is not good enough reason to shoot it down

Yes, it is. You're providing us with an idea here on Developing Suggestions. It's your task to develop the suggestion into something that the players can agree is a good idea. If your idea would break the game, it's our duty to shoot it down and tell you where it's broken. We've told you repeatedly where it's broken, but have yet to see any development. I believe most of us agree that your idea is fundamentally broken and will not work, regardless of the tweaks involved. I'm sorry that you we can't understand each other, but it's not any of our responsibility to make you understand our reasoning, but it is your responsibility to bring us around to an understanding of and agreement with yours. This will be my last response unless I see significant changes to the suggestion, since there's no point in continuing a discussion that can only serve to frustrate both of us.

Regarding humans and zombies, there are not twice as many humans. Check the stats. And you're arguing that net barricade levels would be on the increase, but net barricade levels don't matter when the zombies just need to hold a few positions to win, which would be trivial if they could break down the barricades at will. You've been playing this game long enough that you must realize that humans are incapable of winning the game (literally and technically) and, faced with large enough hordes, have no recourse but to flee.

Due to Beachhead Tactics and the like, only a small number of zombies are necessary in order to render buildings ruined, and as we saw before with Extinction, ruining buildings is already very doable and is extremely dangerous. Even though humans could repair the buildings, as you point out, they'd have to expose themselves to do so, which comes at great cost to them if they're found and killed. On the other hand, zombies risk practically nothing to undo the barricades. There's also the fact that a lone zombie now has enough AP to take down a VSB by himself and maybe get a few hits in on survivors. A handful working in unison can expect to get in and do serious damage. The way that survivors can survive in this game is by having those barricades stay up 24/7. Once the barricades fall, survivors start dying, and dying is extremely costly. Your suggestion would make the barricades fall all the time, which means lots of survivor deaths. Or maybe they disappeared, in which case they just gave away the building to the zombies.

Also, you seem to have missed the point of the game. It is not to reward the hardcore players, and not all MMOs are the way you described. Life may reward those that work hard, but games don't have to reflect life since they are meant to be fun. This game, like many others, chooses not to make a point of rewarding an individual's hard work, and instead tries to be fun for the demographic that it's aimed at: people who only want to spend five minutes a day playing the game. I played WoW for years (back when it wasn't nerfed all to hell), I raided at the high end, I was there for guild and server firsts, and if you think that this game is supposed to play out like WoW, you've most certainly missed the point.

Anyway, I'm done for now with the arguing, but I would like to reiterate a few things that have already been said. First, if your suggestion needs "drastic" (using your words here) changes to work, make them instead of beating around the bush. Don't keep arguing it as it is, since it just wastes everyone's time. Second, if this many people are coming out against your idea, whether or not you can see a problem, you need to admit that the players think there is a problem and that your suggestion will never be accepted as it is, since suggestions get voted on by the very people that you are arguing against right now. Third, use a signature. Iscariot mentioned this to you already, and I posted on your talk page even before he mentioned it to you, but it's common etiquette to use one. If you need help, I'll be glad to help you with it. —Aichon— 08:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: MOLD'S POST: "I know what parkour is, and I know that a lot more people claim to practice it than actually do." Firstly, friend, you have to take what I say for granted. If everytime someone made a claim "I've played UD for 4 years" I said "HAHA, you're just lying", we'd never get anywhere. I DO practice parkour, by myself AND with a club, and you're just going to have to take that for granted. "Something to do with its trendiness in sandbox video games, no doubt." Seriously, my friend, stop trying to insert clever lines everywhere; it comes out, for want of a better word, extremely dorky. "Whether or not you actually practice it is no concern of mine." Not in the general sense, but for this debate, it IS a concern of yours. You have said that I should get off my ass and stop wasting time. As I have proved that I DO get off my ass, it is a concern of yours, as you were the one who first stated that I was inactive. "The issue we're having here is this: Your suggestion is dead on arrival, and people before me have quite clearly pointed out why it's no good, and you don't care." Of course I care. I was the one who said at the very top of the page, if you'd care to look, that I wanted feedback as to how it would not work. Maybe you are not familiarized with the construction of debates. I'll fill you in. The point of a debate is that we're arguing something. If everybody agreed to my suggestion, there WOULDN'T be any debate, now would there? "This implies that the problem isn't actually with the suggestion, but rather, with you". Um... let me get this straight. You're saying that because I argue my point, there must be something seriously wrong with me. Simply put, I don't understand the logic of that statement. "I don't really care why you want to turn Urban Dead into World of Warcraft with zombies, I'm telling you it's not going to happen, full stop". To be honest, as I have said before, I didn't think it would ever really happen, because of server issues. However, to be quite frank, and I know that most hardcore UD's will hate me for this; yes, I would like to make UD more WOW style. And in all fairness, if it were more WOW style, it would attract far more players. "Your inability to hear or understand what people are saying to you, and your celebration of the worst (at times lethally bad) aspect of MMOs as integral and good and able to teach valuable lessons about life, implies you have dangerous psychological problems and may wind up hurting or killing yourself with them over time. I mean, if you want to go hurt yourself, that's none of my business, but I wish the windup toward your breakdown and suicide attempt could happen somewhere other than Developing Suggestions". Firstly, as I have stated above, I do understand what people are saying. I'm simply debating the point. Secondly, are you saying that all MMORPG's that require gameplay time of more than 10 minutes daily should be shut down? If so, you are the bane of pretty much EVERY gamer out there. If you would not like to partake of such "time-wasting activities", perhaps you should refrain from them, and live a quiet life with the Amish somewhere. And finally, please stop with the dramatism. "Winding up killing myself". Get real. I could start throwing any number of unfounded accusations at you: "If you don't start playing WOW, there is a serious chance you will kill all your family". Stick to reality. Playing MMORPG's will NOT make me kill myself. It's just a stupid thing to say. -- Chase1993

Okay, this is getting very boring, and seems increasingly pointless. A few last things and I'm done.

You haven't proved anything, you've claimed things but a claim that I can't disprove isn't proof of your claim. Proof looks more like this: "I started playing Mold roughly four years ago, feel free to check the character profile to verify this." And that's not even airtight logical proof of the claim, that's just pretty strong evidence that the player database thinks that somebody started playing a character with that name on that date. Though I have made a slight change to his profile just to firm things up a little.

Debating involves more than just stating your opinion over and over again while other people say other things.

There's more to arguing than saying something that a lot of people disagree with. I suggest you start with the wikipedia article on argument and go from there. Many here at the wiki don't actually argue, lord knows I often don't, but if you're going to claim to be using things like "argument"s and "logic" it might help if you were doing so.

Maybe you ought to spend more time familiarizing yourself with the game and its community before you start suggesting drastic -- or even small -- changes to it. Give it a year or so. Run around independent. Join a breather group. Join a zombie group. Get a feel for how the game looks and plays from different angles. Know what you're talking about.--Mold 09:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: TO AICHON'S POST: I understand completely what you are saying. If everyone is against me, why do I keep debating? Because my idea from the first was not to implement changes EXACTLY how I put them down. I simply want to find a way that players can play for long periods of time. I DON'T have all the answers. I want everyone to work together and try and find a way that my idea could be implemented. As it happens, I am VERY surprised to find that most people do NOT want to play for long periods of time. That's peoples prerogative. I STILL however, cannot understand why, if there were a way to implement it, people would not like it. Seriously, I don't understand how someone would not like to be able to play a game they love for a longer period of time than 10 minutes daily. But I hope you see where I'm coming from. My proposal was the only way I could think of to reinforce my idea; that of longer playing periods. I understand that this forum is unanimously against me, but all I was trying to do was find a way to make the game funner. I salute you, Aichon, for debating with me thus far, but all I would like is simply for people to try and find a way to play for longer periods. -- Chase1993

RE: MOLD'S POST: Firstly, I understand where you're coming from. I have never posted on this wiki before, and I do not know very well how this community operates. I HAVE played the game for the past 3-4 months, but perhaps I still do not quite understand the mentality of most of it's players. That's part of the reason I wrote this suggestion in the first place, as it says at the top. Finally, as I have stated several times before, the purpose of this suggestion is to throw around ideas that would increase playing time. Several players, BobBoberton, Whitehouse, Aichon, and others, have offered constructive criticism. You have offered nothing but insults and unfounded accusations. Perhaps my suggestion isn't airtight. That's why I posted it in the developing suggestions page; to get an idea if how it would be received. Obviously, it has been very poorly recieved; that still gives me a right to state my opinions as opposed to other people's. Anyway, all that to say, the purpose of this page is, as far as I am aware, to debate, make suggestions better,and give constructive criticsm. You have done none of those. I do understand your point. However, continously reiterating that I should shut up and get help is NOT helping the game. If you have nothing constructive to add to my suggestion, say you don't like it and then stop posting. It makes life easier for everyone. -- Chase1993 10:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

[1] Heres a similar game, with almost identical graphics and similar skills, and a massively increased ap rate. Go and play it, the ask yourself "Is this what I want urban dead to be?" Also note the number of registered players, approximately 600. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe that this idea sucks ass so very badly. Even worse than my worst suggestions. Cookies and Cream 13:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

EPIC WIN Wait, what? The title's wrong... Come to think of it, what the hell is up with the picture? Uhuh. No way. No fucking way. You're telling me that someone actually made a good suggestion on DS? Get your lying ass out of here before I start putting bullets into it.

This time, it's been earned.

Lelouch vi Britannia 19:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

WOW. I sure am happy I remembered to jump back into DS at the right time. I'm saving this crap in my userspace. So much argument for such a abysmal idea... It's mindblowing! --DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION-- 00:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)