Developing Suggestions

Developing Suggestions

This page is for presenting and discussing suggestions which have not yet been submitted and are still being worked on.

Further Discussion

Discussion concerning this page takes place here. Discussion concerning the suggestions system in general (including policies about it) takes place here.

Nothing on this page will be archived.

Please Read Before Posting

• Be sure to check The Frequently Suggested List and the Suggestions Dos and Do Nots before you post your idea. There you can read about many idea's that have been suggested already, which users should be aware of before posting what could be a dupe, or a duplicate of an existing suggestion. These include Machine Guns and Sniper Rifles. There users can also get a handle of what an appropriate suggestion looks like.
• Users should be aware that this is a talk page, where other users are free to use their own point of view, and are not required to be neutral. While voting is based off of the merit of the suggestion, opinions are freely allowed here.
• It is recommended that users spend some time familiarizing themselves with this page before posting their own suggestions.
• With the advent of new game updates, users are requested to allow some time for the game and community to adjust to these changes before suggesting alterations.

How To Make a Suggestion

Format for Suggestions under development

Please use this template for discussion. Copy all the code in the box below, click [edit] to the right of the header "Suggestions", paste the copied text above the other suggestions, and replace the text shown here in red with the details of your suggestion.

===Suggestion===
{{suggestionNew
|suggest_time=~~~~
|suggest_type=Skill, balance change, improvement, etc.
|suggest_scope=Who or what it applies to.
|suggest_description=Full description. Check spelling and be descriptive.
|discussion=|}}
====Discussion (Suggestion Name)====
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Cycling Suggestions

Developing suggestions that appear to have been abandoned (i.e. two days or longer without any new edits) will be given a warning for deletion. If there are no new edits it will be deleted seven days following the last edit.

This page is prone to breaking when there are too many templates or the page is too long, so sometimes a suggestion still under strong discussion will be moved to the Overflow-page, where the discussion can continue between interested parties.

The following suggestions are currently on the Overflow page: No suggestions are currently in overflow.

If you are adding a comment to a suggestion that has the deletion warning template please remove the {{SNRV|X}} at the top of the discussion section. This will show that there is active conversation again.

Please add new suggestions to the top of the list.

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Suggestions

Crucifixes

Timestamp:	Super Nweb 08:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Flavour
Scope:	Humans
Description:	Crucifixes *Prepares to be flamed* are a useless part of Urban Dead, so why not make them "Usefullerish" if that is even a word. Make it so you can attack with a crucifix and the text reads 'You hit XXX on the head with a crucifix while shouting religious phrases, they get a bruise on the head and nothing else, dealing 1dmg'. It would have a 25% hit rate and deal one damage (1/4th as powerful as the knife to put it in perspective).

Discussion (Crucifixes)

Half damage and half to hit? That would be 50% as powerful as a knife....

The only thing that crucifixes should grant is an automatic success when it comes to molesting children. However there is no "Molest Minor" action in UD so crucifixes will remain useless. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 08:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Looky there, it's Iscariot again making such a completely called for and witty comment totally not trying to offend anyone! I believe this the 10,000th one too! Let's give him a Standing O!--SirArgo ^Talk 08:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Awww. Argo, are you one of these delusional fuckwits who believes that some omnipresent father figure will spank those who are mean to you after you die? If you are, a true prophet will now inform you what you should do. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 05:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I just don't see why fucktards like you have to make their balls feel big by publicly and for no reason insulting things they don't agree with. Then again, I'm trying to reason with THE LORD ISCARIOT. PRAISE HIM AND HIS OMNIPOTENT WIKIMARTYR STATE. For someone who hates religion, you sure to love to act like God.--SirArgo ^Talk 05:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

vation?--xoxo 08:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

A 'standing O' is choir boy slang. It has nothing to do with clapping. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 05:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Wow, did your mom hit you over the head with a rock when you were young, or did your dad beat you?--SirArgo ^Talk 05:50, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

50% chance to hit / 2 = 25 / 2 (Since it is half the damage) = 12.5 12.5 X 4=50 Iscariot, before you decide to make witty comments make sure you actually do the math correctly. --Super Nweb 01:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Damage and accuracy are two unconnected values, it's not height and depth. But do continue to think they are. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 05:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Damage * accuracy = average damage per AP, which is generally used as a measure of how powerful a weapon is. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 08:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

And I thought you could calculate. Halving something twice only leaves a quarter. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 17:45, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

This seems as good a place as any: Why is it that everyone in Suggestions hates everyone else in Suggestions? Seriously. All I see are people complaining, deriding and yelling. Has it always been this bad, or is this a recent development? -CaptainVideo 05:03, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

You do realise we've been really nice to each other recently? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 05:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Mister, I think you and I have different definitions of "nice." -CaptainVideo 03:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Iscariot just hates religion because he doesn't believe in a deity and other people do. Naturally, he acts like a condescending jackass when anyone brings up the topic in his stomping grounds. People roll their eyes and call him out on his jackassery. It's the circle of life. Kind of. --William Told and Co. ^{ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ} 09:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Dearest Iscariot,

I know you like to mock people because they don't accept your word as law, but you seriously need to get some of that sand out of your vagina. Sure, you're not especially witty and your intelligence is vastly exceeded by your own estimation of your intelligence, but you don't have to take your frustration and hostility out on people for not recognizing the greatness you assume to be obvious in yourself. It makes you look like a jackass.

With Heavenly love,

--William Told and Co. ^{ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ} 09:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Iscariot: 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25 – he was correct. :P Super Nweb: Get rid of the pointless flavour text, particularly the "shouting religious phrases" – that's what the Speech action is for. No free actions. Otherwise, this is fine. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 07:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Yup, Iscariot has forgotten math. It would have to have 100% to hit to be as good as the knife which deals 1 damage per AP, this deals .25 damage per AP(1 damage every 4 AP). Some people really just need to learn when they don't know what the fuck they're talking about and stop there.--Karek^maps?! 21:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, for future reference I would leave your suggestion here for discussion for at least a week or two before you decide to put it up for a vote. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 08:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

A good guideline is "Don't put it to voting until the discussion has died down". It can be less than a week or it can be more. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 08:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Ja, I waited for a week after the talk died down on my crucifix suggestion, and it was peer reviewed. :P--William Told and Co. ^{ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ} 09:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

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Save Monroeville

Timestamp:	Super Nweb 07:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Replaying Monroeville
Scope:	Monroeville Players
Description:	As we currently know Monroeville is essentially dead. It was an epic idea, perma-death and such. But unfortunately that has caused us to essentially kill the game because everyone is deaqd. Therefore I propose this idea for Monroeville! No revives, headshot permadeath will be in effect -Every 4(?) months the game resets and the quarantine is lifted for 2(?) week. After 1(?) months of play, headshot is introduced. -To maintain a continuity of a character's track record throught the quarantines and so that players are able to make IP donations without fear of forever losing their characters, dead characters will be resurrected after every reset. -To prevent an overpopulation of headshotters killing level 1 zombies, everyone will have their characters wiped and will be back to the class selection screen after every round. -Every character will have badges / text in their profile between their character description and skills, which reads total number of zombies headshotted, brains eaten, humans killed, as well as number of times you survived, were a walking corpse or headshot corpse in all the resets. This would make picking your skills MUCH more improtant since it would be hard to acquaire all the skills in those 4 (?) months, therefore you couldn't be a one man army, people would really have to focus on their class, or become a weaker but all aroudn player, the possibilities are endless.

Discussion (Save Monroeville)

Not sure why but I got flamed for this suggestion awhile back, people were mad that they wouldn't be able to play their characters fully because of the reset, but guess what... YOU CAN'T PLAY THEM NOW ANYWAY! Enough with the flames, improve, not insult. --Super Nweb 07:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Don't assume I don't care about Monroeville.
2. I get no lag when a new city goes up
3. There is never a reason to flame someone, that is just stooping to the same level
4. And I quote "Enough with the flames, improve, not insult." nice job reading the article, if you couldn't even folow one simple guideline.--Super Nweb 01:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I think one of the reasons people get flamed when suggesting 'hardcore'/Monroeville suggestions is because the flamers don't like playing the game when something is at stake... In Monroeville you had to take care of yourself, sleeping in the wrong building could get you messed up forever, no revives, no coming back once your head is blown off. Lets face it, it made the game more of a challenge to survive and made it more intense and exciting. The flamers are doing what they do best... sitting at a computer screen trying to be big where there is no risk of repercussions... Just like in Malton. The biggest risk in Malton is being inconvenienced if your a survivor and get killed. Hardcore zombie obsesses don't even have that risk (by HcZOs I mean people who only play as zombies and dislike all things survivor related). Reading this actually makes me want to re-try my non-revive-perma-death character idea for use in malton. Sorry if this is a bit inconsistent, I've been awake for about 36hours and have 12 to go (guess the goal). --Kamikazie-Bunny 09:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Lots of people cared about the 'lesser' cities precisely because it is the early race to gain skills and kill/be killed that make the game most fun. The headshot = instant perma death was a step too far IMHO but with tweaking (it causes the perma loss of x hits?) I would be all for a reset every few months. As it does not involve the main city it should not worry people like Iscariot who clearly would not want to play... after all they would not play. For those of us who do like the idea then i would hope that it would not be too much work for Kevan to simply restart the cities every 3-6 months!--Honestmistake 09:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a valid idea but maybe longer time in-between resets. Given that you only accomplish so much in 4 months, changing it to 6 months before a reset seems simpler and allows for people to flesh out characters with extra skills in the last few months. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 10:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Fuck Monroeville. As for the claim that we who don't care about playing the side-line cities have no reason to be bothered if they are restarted, Iscariot already covered it: LAG. Every time a new city starts it lags the shit out of an already delicate server. --Papa Moloch 10:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Monroeville is gone. Rather than rebooting, I'd rather it was replaced.--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 16:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Nothing special about Monroeville other than permadeath. --A Big F'ing Dog 17:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Like the people in it, the city lived and died. And like the people in it, it should not be revived. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 18:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, come on Kevan, something new! With Wirecutters! --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:05, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'll say one thing about Monroeville, I think there are several suggestions that COULD be incorporated into UD, but would be good to be "tested" first. Monroeville could be a test city for suggestions.--Pesatyel 05:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

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Additional Necronet Info

Timestamp:	A Big F'ing Dog 17:14, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Improvement
Scope:	Necronet usage
Description:	There are a few extra details I think Necronet should give us, in addition to the map of scanned zombies. Number of revives performed in the last 24 hours in the map's area. The change in the overall number of scanned zombies in the map's area over the past 24 hours, and the current total of all zombies on the map. As zombies become unscanned as time passes, are revived, or leave the area this number would go down. Number of scanned brain rotters currently in the map's area. All of this information would logically be collected by Necrotech (otherwise why scan?), and it makes sense that scientists could access it. So below the map a scientist might see: Over the last twenty four hours: 22 revivifications performed Population of scanned zombies increased by 15 to 129 31 zombies with brainrot currently detected This information doesn't provide any direct military advantage (except maybe knowing when to flee), but it'd give a scientist a decent estimate as to a suburb's current condition, and whether the zombies are winning the battle for the area.

Discussion (Additional Necronet Info)

Is this a skill? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:36, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a rather interesting idea. It would definetly add more of a use to the scientist class, along with the necronet system. The good thing about it is that it only detects scanned zombies, so unless survivors co-ordinated and did large sweeps of the suburb, the system would not be effective, as per the normal necronet. I'd say it's a good suggestion. --Happy doodle 18:40, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Not sure the change in numbers is worthwhile but number of rotters would be useful and logicaly should be available. If implemented I would also suggest showing how many scanners are operating and how many necronet terminals in the scan area.--Honestmistake 20:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how Necronet would be able to gather a revive count given the current operation of scaners and syringes. Rotters is a useful stat and obviously possible though. --  RoosterDragon  20:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I would assume that the reviver who scans first could easily be considered to enter a note of his actions as part of the process?--Honestmistake 23:54, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Well scanning gives you the option of immediately reviving. I can see the revive count ONLY applying in the case of a "scanner activated" revive (as opposed to just using a syringe). It might skew the numbers some (since there would be more revives then indicated) but most people scan first anyway so as to not waste a syringe on a rotter. I don't see this suggestion having any significant problems.--Pesatyel 05:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I still don't know if I approve of the revive count. That seems like a stretch, a kind of like a useless bit of info as well. Other than telling the scientist how quickly the RP lines are moving, it doesn't really give any information. I love the rest though. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 06:52, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Some people might not have scanners, and some people might not scan before reviving. As mentioned above, not a particularly great stat. Certainly one of the most boring when considered Malton-wide. It's essentially constant. --  RoosterDragon  18:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Dupe. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 08:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a link so we can compare it to this one? --Kamikazie-Bunny 09:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Probably not. It's Iscariot, after all. --_Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 08:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Tell me why I'd give him the help to alter this so it doesn't class as a dupe, when I can just wait until it goes for voting and get two friends to help me remove it? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 09:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Because he had the sense to post it here, where we can give detailed feedback, instead of going straight to the main suggestion page?
• Because it would save everyone time and effort later?
• Or how about so people can see that you are not always an asshat?--Honestmistake 11:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

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Carry

Timestamp:	Kamikazie-Bunny 13:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Flavour
Scope:	Profile checkers
Description:	In addition to the wearing section of the description page there should be a "Carrying" section with two slots, one for hands and one for back. Objects being carried have no effect on game play and are purely for flavour. As with clothes different items are available in different places and some are available in a range of colours. Feel free to suggest additional items to the example lists below: Hand objects: A Wrench Some Frankincense Some Rosary Beads A Broken Torch A Shovel A Safety Sign A Fire Hose A Broken Assault Rifle A Stethoscope A Bucket A Car Tyre A Plastic sword A Generator Parts A Traffic Cone A Stereo A Football A Hockey ball A dead rat Survivors can also equip an item from their inventory to display the sort of roll they are currently fulfilling, if the equipped item is dropped/used/etc. then it is removed from the description. Back Objects: A Child's backpack A Back pack A Rucksack A Sleeping bag In addition to these objects for survivors there are several objects only zombies can pick-up in the presence of dead bodies... Hand Objects: 01+ bodies - A Bone 05+ bodies - A Human liver 10+ bodies - A Severed arm 15+ bodies - A Human heart 20+ bodies - A Human head Although these objects will have no effect on the game, I and (I'm assuming) other players enjoy reading the colourful descriptions of the mostly silent population of Malton. These objects will help people better define their characters appearance and possibly provide an idea of the players mindset. I am aware their is a description section but there is only so much room in it and this allows us profile readers a little more fun and to use our description to better express our characters personality.

Discussion (Carry)

I don't really feel this is necessery, but I don't have any strong objections either. The back space seems to have too little in it. I suppose you could add a bum bag to the back space! Carefull with the wrench - it looks like something that should have an in game effect, such as smashing someones skull in. The Mad Axeman 14:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I admit it's not necessary, it's purely flavour and has no in game effect. I know the back list is a little empty, feel free to suggest as many things as you can think of that are appropriate. I'll update the list later. If Kevan ever implemented one of these objects as an item I see no reason why it can't be on both choices, there's no harm in showing people what you are carrying. --Kamikazie-Bunny 15:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

"In addition to the wearing section of the description page there should be a "Carrying" section with two slots, one for hands and one for back. Objects being carried have no effect on game play and are purely for flavour." - Take it to Clothing Suggestions. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 18:00, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Its not a clothing suggestion though and should certainly be here, if implemented it could best be improved on that page though. --Honestmistake 20:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Necklaces are not clothing, medallions are not clothing, 3D glasses are not clothing, goggles are not clothing, and gas masks are not clothing. And this isn't even one third into Clothes. This is essentially a clothing suggestion, even if they aren't exactly clothes. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 22:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

those are all worn items though, this deals very specifically with things being visably carried which i personally see as being a distinct enough change to be discussed here.--Honestmistake 08:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Objects with a distinct use and the require a failure possible search = items. Objects with purely flavour reasons that appear in the 'character is wearing' pane = clothing. Which part of this logical progression escapes you? All this does is spam up this page because you can't be arsed to take it to the correct page. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 08:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Your complaining about spam? 90% of your comments are non-constructive and spam up idea discussions (And just to ensure you don't start on some stupid debate about this being a spam comment) I've removed the backpacks from the idea to account for the "It's there so it must do something" mentality that some people adopt and made a change to items that can be shown... --Kamikazie-Bunny 09:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Iscariot "In addition to the wearing section of the description page there should be a "Carrying" section" ...which part of this led you to believe these are worn when it clearly states they will be in a seperate section called "Carrying"? No where does this suggestion say you can place searchable items in these slots, that is my addition to the discussion. Nowhere do I say that these searchable items would no longer require searching... in fact i clearly state that they should be in your inventory (hence you would already have to have searched for them!) Saying you don't like an idea is fine, saying you don't like it and that means it has no right to be here is not.. even if this should be on clothing suggestions when complete it is here for discussion and development which is very definitely the purpose of this page.--Honestmistake 10:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't like idea for a slot for the back as it can only mislead folk into thinking they can carry more. As for the rest I think the carry object should also allow any item in your inventory to be selected.--Honestmistake 20:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Midianian is right this really IS a clothing equivalent suggestion.--Pesatyel 04:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

It is essentially a new clothing slot in many respects, however given the very nature of the slots they could be seen to act differently. There would be no point posting these onto the clothing page as the slots do not exist, also, because any sort of bag is going to suggest improved carrying capacity it deserves discussion (and i believe killing) Finally the "item" slot could and probably should be expanded to allow the display of a favoured "useful" item as well as the purely decorative. If it gets accepted then it would deserve space on the clothing page but at the moment it is a developing suggestion to iron it out and gauge support for the extra slot/s --Honestmistake 08:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a clothing suggestion. New clothing slots have been suggested before, guess where they went? Clothing suggestions. If it has an effect, it's a suggestion. If it does nothing but appear in your profile, it's clothing. I repeat, this is a clothing suggestion. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 07:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

If he includes my suggestion to allow inventory items to go in this slot it would have an in game effect. If you place a syringe, toolkit, FAK etc there it shows people what you might focus on. Sure you could just type that into the description but this would do it better.--Honestmistake 11:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm actually going to try re-work this suggestion into two parts in a few days... The first being the "adding a carry slot to display an item in your inventory" and the second being a "list of flavour items that can be found in buildings for the carrying slot"... the boys and girls can bitch and moan about the new flavour items option all they want but the first part should be 'unique' enough to satisfy the nit-pickers. --Kamikazie-Bunny 21:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Dupe. Also, don't connect suggestions. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 22:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

There is already a clothing suggestion nearly identical to this one. I voted no. --William Told and Co. ^{ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ} 09:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

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Kick Out Skill

Timestamp:	Close to death 20:00, Monday, 2nd March 2009
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Survivor.
Description:	New skill, Civilian skill, 35% Chance of hit, 2 Damage This is a skill that will even it out a bit, the zombie skill "Feeding Drag" lets the zombie player drag helpless survivors outside for the kill, right? well this is a skill that will let you kick them out before they can drag you out. Practicaly it is a skill that lets you kick a zombie that just entered the building, out again, Condition for skill to work: The doors still have to be open, the baracades have been destroyed. This is a skill ment as a last ditch efforts to save the building while dealing some damage in the process. Cost 5AP, Cannot be used against other survivors. Alternate is this skill adds "Kick" as an attack with the same parameters as punch, but with the chance of kicking the zombie out of an open door. What it will say if you miss "You attack the zombie but miss" What it will say if you hit "You kick the zombie for 2 damage. They drop to x." What it will say if you hit and zombie gets kicked out "You land a kick on a zombie and it gets forced out the open door for 2 damage. They drop to x."

Discussion (Kick Out Skill)

Well how does this sound?

Moved from Category:Current Suggestions. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds pretty pointless to me. You might as well finish the zombie off and dump the body. And you want to be re-barricading if possible, which conflicts with kicking the zombie out. --Explodey 13:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I dunno. It saves a step, and when you're down to your last couple of AP points, that matters. -CaptainVideo 05:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Terrible for many different reasons, not the least of which is that zombies have to gravely weaken survivors in order to drag them. Add into that the massive AP cost of getting a zombie into a building as compared to the minimal AP cost for a survivor to do the same and I think we can just say that this suggestion isn't workable. --Papa Moloch 13:48, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Dupe. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 17:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

From where? -CaptainVideo 05:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

From the brain of everyone's favorite wiki-bigot. --_Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 21:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

As Explodey said, it doesn't really have much relevance or point to the current game system. Also, you should elaborate on what is considered a 'recent' break in. Can you kick a zombie till ten minutes after he has gotten inside the building? Or what? --Happy doodle 18:47, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Overpowered. Feeding Drag has a the requirment of the victim being 12 hp or less. With this, I could, conceivably, kick out 9 full health zombies, then spend the last APs to barricade (or run). Maybe if there were significant penalties you would do better. Maybe there is a chance of you going out with the zombie. Hell, maybe there is a chance of getting infected (kicking knocks something of the zombie or something).--Pesatyel 04:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

While I don't seem much use other than flavor from it, for balance you could fix it to better balance with Feeding Drag by only being able to use it on a zombie at 12 hp or less and not doing any damage. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 06:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Hell no. There'd be no point to killing zombies at all (other than XP). You just get them down to 12 HP and kick them out. If they try back in, you could kick them out immediately. A zombie at 12 HP is already much worse off than one that's dead, this would make them almost completely powerless. The zombies would have to start killing eachother if they ever wanted to get anything done. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 18:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so the main thing that needs to be changed is that this has to only be affective against zombies with "12 hp or less", i'll just see if there are any more suggestions by you guys and then i'll edit the skill to better match what the players want. --User:Close to death 19:20, 4 March 2009

No. Read Papa Moloch's comment. This is overpowered no matter what. It takes a lot of effort for zombies to break into buildings, and survivors shouldn't be able to just kick them out. --William Told and Co. ^{ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ} 09:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

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Warn against biting barricades

Timestamp:	Explodey 22:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Type:	help text
Scope:	Mostly zombies
Description:	You know and I know that biting barricades is pointless because it can't damage them, right? Well newbie zombies might not know that, because they haven't discovered the wiki yet. You couldn't blame them if they looked at the accuracy and damage for the 2 weapons available to them (hands & teeth) and figured that teeth looked better, because of the higher average damage (against harmanz, this is true, just not against cades.) Also they won't know that damage per hit is fixed at 1 for barricades. At the moment you get messages like: You bite the barricade, to no effect (zombie teeth) You swat the barricade (newspaper) You shoot the barricade, to no effect (firearms) This message should be made clearer, with warnings in red text that you should not attempt the same attack again. Otherwise they may think they were just unlucky & missed, and try again until they've wasted around 20AP. It's a bit less likely that a survivor would make that mistake, but the same applies to them also.

Discussion (Warn against biting barricades)

There doesn't seem to be very much harm to simply change the text in the game, especially if it is to help and inform newbies. One problem that I can think of for this suggestion is that how many people will read this message? Alot of people will find out before-hand that it's pointless to bit a barricade so changing the text is not necessary . But as long as the text is there to let them know, it can't hurt.--Kez0 21:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Looks good. I'd vote Keep.-- Adward  22:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that the "...to no effect" on the message pretty much already tells you that it's a lost cause. If you're a zombie and you swat at the 'cades with you hands, on a bad hit you still get a vaguely positive message, "it creaks". So it seems kind of needless to me for a change. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 10:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Not really. "...to no effect" could apply to THAT particular attack, not ALL attacks (by bite).--Pesatyel 03:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

keep --Topgun 15:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

So, something like "You bite at the barricades, but you can't do any damage that way"? It's just a little be clearer. I like it. Faranya 01:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

That's what "to no effect" means. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 08:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Not really. "...to no effect" could apply to THAT particular attack, not ALL attacks (by bite).--Pesatyel 03:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)--Pesatyel 04:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so you want to change the message? To what do you want it changed?--Pesatyel 03:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

i agree with pesatyel: you would only ever attempt to bite the barricades if you didn't actually know it was impossible, to no effect could imply that you simply failed THIS time. "you bite the barricades, but they are too strong to effect" I don't think this is an epidemic that needs solving immediately, but anything that clarifies the game mechanics to new comers is good for Urban Dead and it's future. --Topgun 14:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

So how about:

• Biting the barricade will not harm it.
• Swatting the barricade with a newspaper will not harm it.
• Shooting the barricade will not harm it.

-Pesatyel 04:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

---

Map of Malton

Timestamp:	Blake Firedancer T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T. 09:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Item.
Scope:	Survivor.
Description:	New item, 2% encumberance. Findable outside at 3% rate, plus in hotels/motels at a 6% base rate. When you have a map, everytime you notice a flare, or some other event that gives you a distance, you automatically consult the map for the name of the block where the event originated. e.g. A flare was fired 7 blocks to the west and 4 blocks to the north. Your map shows this point to be [name of location] If you also have NecroTech Employment and the point of origin is a NT building, it will say A flare was fired 1 block to the east and 11 blocks to the north. Your map shows this point to be [name of location], a known NecroTech building

Discussion (Map)

I was about to shout "DUPE" but thankfully I read it first. I like this... I would still like to have one of the previously suggested links to actual suburb maps included instead though. --Honestmistake 09:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I like it. I still won't respond to flares until they mean something, but I like it. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 09:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Well there are 2 maps in Peer Review, but neither works specifically like this.--Pesatyel 09:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Ver Nice, i like.--xoxo 11:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Oooooh, nifty. I can't say that I'd ever use it, but it would be a nice flavor. --Johnny Bass 19:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Inventive, even if I am unsure of its utility. By the way, I take it this wont work for zombies, as I'm not sure that the undead have the mental facilities to use maps. The Mad Axeman 12:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, zombies are generally considered not to be intelligent enough to use items, this map would be no different. --Blake Firedancer ^{T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T.} 01:03, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Generalities about zombies doesn't really cut it with Urban Dead.--Pesatyel 04:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

True, however a map does require using a bit of brain power. I just can't picture a zombie using one. --Blake Firedancer ^{T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T.} 07:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

That's what Memories of Life is for. That skill SHOULD be more than just the memories of how a doorknob works or it would be call "Doorknob" instead.--Pesatyel 10:45, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

There's a big difference between pushing down on a door handle and pulling out a map and cross referencing it with your location and a flare you see in the distance. Having said that I consider it nice flavour but pretty useless; I'm more concerned with why the flare went up as opposed to where. --Kamikazie-Bunny 18:35, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Of COURSE there is! That was my entire point. A skill called "Memories of Life" implies at lot more than just opening doors. That's why I said it would be called "Doorknob" if that's all it was meant to be....to open a door. Your also ignoring a significant factor about Urban Dead that does not conform to "standard" zombie genre....zombies are players too.--Pesatyel 03:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I can't disagree, MOL should entail more than opening doors (as a Stand-alone skill), however, there are things in the game that zombies do and that could be placed under MOL but aren't because zombies are players. For example: A 'typical' zombie would not be able to identify building types, or care... to a zombie a building is a building, if the lights are on or there is activity there may be food so it's likely to attack. Zombies attack Malls, PDs, NTs because they know that survivors are likely to gather in these places and they can identify these buildings and recall why survivors are more likely to be in them (or because of learned behaviour if they have been around for a while). The alternative would be to rename buildings to 'a building' until they get MOL which would just plain suck... Don't forget there is a whole tree of abilities zombies can use because they have those initial MOLs. MOL give zombie exactly that, Memories of life, not analytical skills/logical skills/motor-functions that allow the zombie to pull out a map, locate where they are then calculate where the flare was fired from. They may be able to recall that they did it as a survivor but they're not going to be able to do it because it is too complex especially in comparison to a door HANDLE.--Kamikazie-Bunny 12:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Quite. A cat can open a door, but I've yet to see one do triangulation. The Mad Axeman 14:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there could stand to be a bit of "restructuring". It makes sense that the "living" skills (NT building recognition and Diagnosis) could NOT be used without MoL. To me, it also make sense that MoL would be necessary to use blunt objects (not that zombies really do, but they CAN). But the building recognition (well, beyond NT) is a game necessity.--Pesatyel 03:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

A restructuring would probably be the best step but the problem is people are used to the current way, any attemots to change it would probably just result in an old coke vs new coke scenario--Kamikazie-Bunny 09:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

---

Zombie Hunter Skill

Timestamp:	User:Ash Cianatti/Sig 16:43, 24 February 2009 (West Coast Time)
Type:	Skill
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	Some skills which can be added to the Headshot Branch: DISABLING BLOW: All attacks have a 10% chance of doing 1 extra damage. TAKE AIM: Gunshots aimed at zombies have a 5% bonues to accuracy. And to the Diagnosis branch: SIGNS OF INFECTION: Infected survivors have an asterisk next to their hitpoints. And last but not least, some balancing zombie skills (various branchs): LATENT MEMORY: Zombie hunters' names are underlined. FAMILIAR SCENT: When in a group of zombies, a zombie can see how many are in his/her group. "There are X zombies standing here. Y smell familiar. SCENT STRESS: Zombies standing outside a building can choose to find out how many humans are inside.

Discussion (New Skills)

If you actually get to the suggestions board, remember to post these as separate suggestions.

• Disabling Blow I'm neutral about, but I think there'd be a hue and cry. Out of curiousity, would it be a crossover skill?
  • No. Headshot doesn't cross over, and this would be a 2nd tier of that. Ash Cianatti 01:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
• Take Aim, I gotta say no, because I see no reason why you could not aim at another survivor.
  • Take Aim, well, Headshot doesn't affect survivors. This is a zombie hunter skill - its for hunting zombies. Ash Cianatti 01:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
• Signs of Infection, I'd support. There's in-genre fluff supporting it and if it was a 2nd tier skill, I think it works.

EDIT: Thinking about it, I would like it even better if it was "infected survivors with less than 25 HP have an asterisk next to their names." That backs up the genre flavor of it ("Jack, you don't look so good"). ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 01:16, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• The problem is that zombies often hit first with claws, then after latching on with tangling grasp, biting to infect, then moving on. You then have an infected survivor who was only damaged for 6-7 HP.Ash Cianatti 01:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

That's true, but then again someone only down 6 HP might not show outward signs of infection. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 06:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Latent Memory, I'm not sure about. I guess I want to hear a justification for this, since it makes Hunters possible primary targets. It doesn't do anything except save a mouse click, though, so I see no real harm.
• Familiar Scent: doesn't Scent Death already do this?
• Scent Stress is a big NO, NO, NO. If I read it right, it's a form of X-Ray vision. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 01:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Not if it just gave a general idea (i.e., sensing only ranges of 1-15, 16-35, 36+), and you can already sorta tell this by barricade level and presence of lighting. Ash Cianatti 01:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Not true, 90% of the time when I make it into a powered/rather-well-'caded building, there's maybe 3-4 survivors tops. Power and 'cade level doesn't matter because of A)Barricade strafing and B)Using Genny's as distractions.--Suicidal Angel, Help needed? 01:33, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

In the future, I'd recommend you let an idea sit here for at least a few days before you post it. We could have helped make this into something that stood a snowball's chance, but now it's just going to get spammed into oblivion. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 06:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Correction, it DID get spammed into oblivion. The problem, for me, was that it was a multi-suggestion.--Pesatyel 09:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, Disabling Blow never stood a chance anyway. It's overpowered. Survivor combat skills don't need any kind of a buff, even a small one. I do think Signs of Infection is worth a shot, although the threat of dupes will loom large.--Jiangyingzi 20:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Prognosis. One factor is that it is not really up to US, but up to Kevan.--Pesatyel 05:20, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty neutral on Disabling Blow, but I do think that Take Aim should cost more than 1 AP. If the idea is that you're actually taking aim and lining up the shot, it should cost 3 AP; you could even stack it with the above, since in theory if you're aiming you could aim for a more vital part. I like Signs of Infection following Extropymine's idea of only showing for those at 25HP or less. Scent Stress seems kind of random, but I like the other two zombie skills. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 11:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

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Mobile Phone Search Tweak

Timestamp:	RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 22:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Minor Game Change.
Scope:	Survivors who search.
Description:	Simple. The 100 Buildings in Malton with Phone Masts stuck on their roofs? It is now possible to find mobile phones in these buildings with the same search rates as in clubs. (Which I assume have plummeted since they became dark buildings?)

Discussion (Mobile Phone Search Tweak)

-- Linkthewindow  Talk  10:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments if you please? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 22:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I suppose so. I have a hunch that it may be a dupe, though. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 00:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I dunno, in a real cell phone tower one doesn't find many cell phones, however this would make sense if one assumes that cell towers are sitting on cell phone stores. Ash Cianatti 01:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah sounds good enough, not much reason though since cell phones are useless. Maybe add a feature to the cell phone that lets you see the coordinates of any people that you have on your friends list that have you on theirs. Easier to find and help them, etc.--Super Nweb 08:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Nah, people add their enemies to the contact list too. The suggestion sounds quite good. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I like this. As you stated, clubs have become rather useless for searching since many of them are kept dark. Why not have an alternate building - one in each suburb - to find a cell phone? --Lois ^{talk 10MFH} 18:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

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Riot Shield

Timestamp:	A Big F'ing Dog 17:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Item
Scope:	Survivors
Description:	This was inspired discussion about flak jackets below, and how they really only help zombies. Basically, a riot shield would be a flak jacket, but useful against zombies rather than survivors. A riot shield doesn't reduce damage like a flak. Instead it'd block tangling grasp from taking effect. However, when a survivor is weakened to 25hp the shield would be too heavy to hold upright, and after that point tangling grasp would work on them. The main con shield would be a 15% encumbrance. Multiple shields would not stack in effect, since there is only one tangling grasp bonus to negate. Obviously the pros of this outweigh the con by a long shot, but perhaps if introduced alongside a zombie addition to balance things out...it wouldn't be fair to introduce this now, but as a part of a larger update it'd be a useful addition (maybe upping tangling grasp's bonus for when it does work?). It'd be thematic too, survivors getting grabbed and torn apart when they're too weak to resist.

Discussion (Riot Shield)

	WARNING
	This suggestion has no active conversation. It is marked for deletion in 2 days.

If you have a riot shield in your inventory it should block a percent of zombie hits, but at the same time you have a 10% accuracy penalty with weapons, (Ever try to fight and hold one of those, HARD!!!). --Super Nweb 08:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

-- Linkthewindow  Talk  10:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC) I like the idea of riot shields (obviously) but don't think this is the right way to do it. Stopping tangling grasp has the advantage that it doesn't harm newbie zombies but it also has no effect on melee in general which makes no real sense. As for being unbalanced on its own... that really should not matter if its a good suggestion, balance is Kevans job, we are here to make suggestions that we think will improve the game if well implemented. Thats not to say a suggestion can be totally uber powerful but it does not need to be balanced in and of itself if another suggestion can even out the benefits!--Honestmistake 18:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I mean, I don't think it's unbalanced or that it would mess up the game. But survivors don't seem weak now. I appreciate what this suggestion would add to the game, but just a purposeless "have a present!" buff seems unfair.

What about this as an alternative counterbalance - The riot shield blocks 10% of incoming melee attacks, but also blocks 10% of outgoing melee attacks. --A Big F'ing Dog 19:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Do the numbers pan out? This is an item that negates a 10% conditional to-hit bonus, and only until the survivor is half dead. There are people who know numbers better than me, but looking at the stats for claw, here's what I see. I'll cut-and-paste from the page.

• Vigour Mortis, Death Grip and Rend Flesh (50% accuracy, 3 damage) average AP to kill 60HP enemy: 40
• Vigour Mortis, Death Grip, Rend Flesh and Tangling Grasp (60% accuracy if grasped (50% if not), 3 damage) average AP to kill 60HP survivor: 35

Which is to say, a zombie attacking at 50% will use only 5 AP more (on average) to kill a 60HP enemy than will a zombie attacking with 60%. So, since the shield stops working at 25HP, this would only mean a 2 or 3 AP difference to kill the 60HP survivor. Since the shield is 15% encumbrance, would survivors really carry one? ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 00:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You're right. I think if the shields blocked a certain percentage of all attacks that would be better. To balance them the shields could be 20% or something encumbrance. Another way to keep them balanced is when the shield stops working at 20-25hp, when a survivor would show up as 'wounded' for zombies. User:KingsblendRizla 03:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The main problem with armor (be it flak or a shield or anything else) is the nature of Urban Dead itself. Flak jackets work by reducing the damage from attacks of 5 or higher by 20%, meaning it ONLY affects pistols, shotguns and flareguns. Zombies suffer from "low damage" attacks. Imagine if your 2 damage claws only did 1 because of armor? The same could be said for all melee weapons, meaning they would be even less likely to be used then they are already. The only zombie attack that would be, marginally, ok to "affect" would be the bite at 4 damage. Of course, we aren't exactly talking damage with this idea, but a attack reduction. If we are talking, say a 10% decrease, then that can really screw newbies (especially converts who wouldn't even be able to USE bite). The only thing I can think to deal with it is give the shield a % chance of having an effect. Say, for example, the shield has 40% chance of causing a -10% to hit instead of a straight up decrease. It IS realistic in the sense that the shield primarily protects the front left side (well, for righties) of the user meaning the rear and right side can be attacked without the shield intervening (barring the user turning and things, hence the 40% chance of a block). Of course, the same argument COULD apply to the flak jacket since it only covers the torso, leaving the head, arms and legs exposed, as well as Headshot(which never made sense to me to be automatic anyway).--Pesatyel 09:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's a balanced idea. Riot shields cause -10% accuracy to incoming melee attacks, but only taken away from accuracy above base, essentially just canceling out Vigour Mortis in the case of zombie attacks. The flip side of this is they also take away 10% accuracy to all outgoing survivor melee attacks, and you can't perform revives or use a DNA Extractor while holding a riot shield. The riot shield separates you from your foe, but it works both ways. --A Big F'ing Dog 17:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

1. This idea in all its forms is overpowered, broken and will get duped.
2. A fair idea is to effectively remove Vigour Mortis? You start a Consumer, then window dive and play until level 10 purely as a zombie and then come back here and tell me what's fair about removing that skill.
3. I can stab someone with a knife but not stick a syringe or extractor into them? What's that? Oh, it's The Logic Train, but it doesn't seem to be stopping here.

-- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 18:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

While realism is a requirement for almost all suggestions, we are talking GAME balance here. Why is it that a shotgun shell and syringe have the same encumbrance? Or that we don't have more "modern" weapons (pump or auto shotguns and automatic pistols, etc.)? Why is it that flak works better for zombies then it does survivors? That the point of an idea like this. And, theoretically, it COULD affect the use of sensitive and/or small devices. Riot shields are necessarily big. So USING one could make it difficult to reach the base of the neck for the syringe or getting close enough to use the DNA extractor.--Pesatyel 05:15, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Shields are very good at protecting against melee attacks and that is a simple fact. Whether introducing them as a free standing upgrade would be fair is a tottally different point. Suggestions by their very nature do not need to be balanced as we can assume/hope that Kevan will do the balancing act by choosing what to implement alongside any given buff, Thats not me whinging that "Kev will fix it" its just a simple and longstanding ideal. Shields could well be a great idea, they are certainly realistic and in the real world they are also a lot more effective against the kind of attacks that survivors worry about in U.D. Now any straight reduction in damage or accuracy is soon going to be the standard if everyone chooses to carry one of these so the penalty assosciated with shields should aim to give as many reasons to drop them as to carry them.... realistically that means reflecting their bulk and awkwardness rather than bitching about how hard one side or the other has! --Honestmistake 23:40, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

One problem I just realized, how do you determine if the shield is being used?--Pesatyel 05:15, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

How about if rather than negating others ability to attack, the riot shield actually gives a +10 to hit with one handed melee weapons (Ergo, not the fire axe.) because it enables the survivor to get closer to the thrashing zombie without getting belted. I for one have always assumed that survivors and zombies taking it in turns to hit each other most of the time was just an abstraction to make life/undeath easier.

Mostly that would make the shield an advantage to knife weilding low levels without full comabat skills. It also means that a maxed out knife would do the same average damage as a fire axe, but with less variance and a higher total encumbrance. The Mad Axeman 14:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

---

Protecting Generators

Timestamp:	~ extropymine Talk | NW | 4Corners 20:06, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Type:	Balance Change
Scope:	Everybody, but mostly affects zombies attacking occupied buildings.
Description:	Built into the current game is a diminishing % chance for success when building barricades once zombies are inside. I don't know the exact numbers, but once 3 or 4 zombies are inside a building, barricade attempts usually result in the "You try to barricade, but zombies lurch into the way" message. I'm curious why there is no diminishing chance for zombies to destroy a generator in a building with dozens of survivors in it. Right now, it's one of the first things that gets done once zombies get into a building. Destroy the generator, making it impossible to call for help with a radio, reduce search rates, no rotter revives, etc., etc. A lone zombie can accomplish this even if there are 100+ survivors in a building. It's extremely frustrating, and often necessitates that survivors carry extra generators because of the ease with which they are destroyed. So I'd propose a similar diminishing chance to destroy a generator. You could give a message like You lurch towards the generator, but there are too many survivors in the way. My initial thought would be to use half the barricade %-- that is, if 2 zombies in a building reduce the barricade chance by 50%, then two survivors in a building would reduce the chance to attack the generator by 25%. If it takes 8 zombies to add -100% to the barricade chance (making it impossible), then similarly it would take 16 survivors to make it impossible for a zombie to attack the generator successfully. I don't know the precise numbers, as I said, but it seems like twice as many survivors would be needed, since zombies are scary and all. While the counter-argument would probably be "this change makes NTs impossible to destroy," I don't see how it would really affect well-organized groups like RRF or the MOB, who are smart enough to do all their damage at once using many coordinated zombie players. A change like this would only necessitate a slightly greater level of organization to take out a powered NT building. For other powered buildings, all it does is raise the challenge by allowing survivors the opportunity to call for help on their radios during an attack. Anyway, I'm interested in discussion on this. There are probably factors I haven't thought of.

Discussion (Protecting Generators)

-- Linkthewindow  Talk  11:10, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

There are two issues conceptual issues which I'll raise here, followed by a game-play one. The first is one of space, which is very simplified within the game. When zombies break into a building they are positioned between the survivors and the door. The door occupies a small, fixed space and to barricade it the survivors need to access that space. Generators on the other hand are internal and their position is unclear, so there is nothing to suggest that the survivors in question would be anywhere near it. Indeed, experience of generators suggests that the majority would probably want to be a significant distance away, due (mostly) to the noise.

The other issue is that of narrative character dynamics. Zombies in the canon are essentially killing machines. All they do is kill, eat and create new zombies. Now, the flavour text for barricade blocking states that a zombie lurches into the survivor's path, which I consider somewhat inelegant and unlikely. I believe that what the zombies are (or should be doing) is lunging at the survivor and scaring them away. I believe that this is not used mainly because it implies an auto-attack, which is a big no-no in Urban Dead. Now, apply that to survivors trying to block path to a generator. Personally I find it unlikely and non-canonical for survivors, who fear death and injury, to throw themselves into the paths of dangerous, infectious killing machines in order to protect and object. Watch the films and attempts to protect are aimed at preserving lives, not lighting. For the most part survivors give zombies a wide berth and strike either from distance or with a speedy withdrawal, neither of which indicates a willingness to stand in the path of the onrushing hordes for the sake of a machine.

The third point is the game-play one: This would be a massive boost to the already extremely powerful combat revive weapon, which would make it potentially cataclysmic. --Papa Moloch 20:36, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to invalidate those concerns, but I guess I'm not sure I share them. On the "space" issue, we commonly overlook a whole bunch of these issues every day. If we try to "conceptualize" spaces in the game, why can't a survivor hide behind other survivors, or barricade the stairs in a tall building, or lock themselves in the bank vault? I guess I see the issue, but I also see how often we overlook that same issue. On the issue of "character dynamics," I would respond that zombies should not care about generators in the first place when there are so many meaty treats in a building. Perhaps instead of survivors "throwing themselves in the way," zombies should be unable to attack generators because there are too many tasty brains distracting them. Now, on the game-play issue, I cannot argue. It might change things, certainly. I'm not sure it would be as massive as people might fear, but even if it did: why not have NTs be strongholds? We complain so much about malls, maybe it would help to make the game less mall-centric? And aside from possible problems with NTs, does this have the potential to unbalance anything else? ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

This has been suggested before. The main problem is that it usually ended up being an auto-defense. Or, if not, then it has significant zerge issues. One of the ideas I came up with last time was for players to "allocate" AP to defense. That is to say, I could allocate 10 AP to defending the generator (the AP is spent). If someone attacks said generator, the next 10 attacks will be affected (percentage reduced or whatever). After that, I'm not defending anymore. Of course, this also has zerge issues, so a level limit would probably be needed.--Pesatyel 04:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm unclear how this presents zerg concerns? Zombies block barricade attempts; survivors prevent a building from being ruined; zombies prevent buildings from being repaired. I haven't heard people crying foul about those being significant zerg issues (though they might be, and i'm just unaware of it). ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 04:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, firstly, those are already part of the game. Not much of a counter-excuse, admitedly. Its just the fact that your trying to introduce something new.--Pesatyel 06:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Point taken. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 16:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Buffing combat revives = bad. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 11:36, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I understand the reaction, but I think it's a knee-jerk one. CRs are sloppy tactics that win short-term gains but not long-term ones. Since all NTs are tall, a combat revive is basically a 4AP slowdown (unless we're talking about a low-level "career" zombie who took Brain Rot before Ankle Grab)-- stand, jump, stand, go inside at full health again. The survivor who CR'd, on the other hand, will spend ~6AP to find a new syringe in the powered NT. Worse still, they run the risk of the CR'd zombie rising and smashing the generator as a survivor. I'd also wager that when Barricade Blocking was suggested, someone said "Buffing horde attacks = bad," and ultimately it added tension, danger and excitement. Why shouldn't it be more dangerous or challenging for zombies to attack powered NTs? Right now, no building in UD is any more challenging to attack than any other building, it's just that some take longer to get the barricades down because of the population inside. The process is always the same: whittle the cades, get zeds in to prevent re-barricading, destroy the jenny, feeding groan, wait for reinforcements. It's fun but also formulaic. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 16:46, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Combat revives shouldn't be buffed because they are already overpowered. There is no other weapon in this game (excepting newspapers if you really want to get picky) that has a 100% hit ratio. In a powered NT this effectively has a 100% kill ratio. The majority of career zombies don't carry guns to break the genny because they don't want to spend their time in human form, and they shouldn't fucking have to! Syringes exist in this game as a mechanic to allow survivors to continue playing without having to start with a new character. The fact that this is allowed to be exploited is wrong, the fact that you want to buff this completely out of genre tactic with a logical fallacy that a human being is going to jump in front marauding zombie to save a replaceable piece of machinery and put their own safety at risk is so retarded you might want to think of running for sysop. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 17:15, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

You need to calm down. Cursing and insulting me really isn't going to help me see your point. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 17:28, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't need to calm down, nor do I need to make you see my point, you are the one bringing the suggestion, you are one with the burden of proof, not me. Why do NTs (which are the ultimate beneficiary of this upgrade) need a buff to help them resist attacks? Downdey Mall was defended by the most intelligent survivor groups in the game, along with having some really stupid ones tagging along. Which do you think was harder to take? That or the nearby NT? Given that we understand this about the game, why is this needed? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 18:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The burden of proof is equally shared here, because I made a suggestion that you refuted with a blanket statement. You want more evidence, and so do I. You want me to show that the suggestion does not unbalance the game, and I want you to show me that it does. The fact is, neither you nor I know for certain what would happen if it was harder to take out generators. I believe it would be one less hassle that survivors need to deal with when even a single zombie gets into a building full of people. Any building, not just NTs. You believe it would make NTs impregnable because of combat revives.

Your anecdotal evidence is no more or less valid than mine. In your anecdotal evidence, NTs are already hard to take out. In my anecdotal evidence, they are very easy to take out. I suppose under various circumstances, both are valid. However, in both our experiences, the NT was taken out. Your attack was rough but not repelled, and you destroyed the NT. If you hadn't been successful, would something be wrong with Urban Dead?

I don't believe every zombie attack has to be ultimately successful for this game to work, because this game is clearly not about one side winning. If one side is ever in danger of winning, Kevan changes numbers around to bring it to a stalemate again. This game is about stalemate, and having a good time trading blocks and suburbs, green-to-red and back again. So I think that if NTs were harder to take out (and I'm still not convinced my suggestion would stop a well-organized horde like RRF or MOB from destroying an NT anytime they set their minds to it), what would happen?

Let's take a worst-case scenario and say NTs became the hardest buildings in UD to destroy. I suppose my advice would be, "then don't try to take one without your horde." No one here is giving any sympathy to a lone survivor who complains that he can't re-take Ridleybank. They laugh at him, because he's trying something incredibly difficult without a large, well-organized group (and even then, I dunno). If taking NTs became incredibly difficult, the same logic would apply. Don't want your Rotter to get CR'd? Then don't go into an NT. It's that simple; they don't have extension cords to CR you on the streets. But well-organized hordes would eventually start taking them down, because players are resourceful and want to overcome obstacles. Taking out NTs wouldn't be routine anymore. It would be difficult, and require more than just a handful of zombies with Brain Rot to do it. But those who did take out NTs would have something to really brag about.

Finally, let me get back to the idea itself. You think that survivors protecting a generator instead of themselves makes no sense. Personally, I think lots of things make no sense in UD. 40 survivors sleeping through a zombie attack makes no sense. Having a zombie stumble into a building with 40 survivors and decide instead to eat the generator makes even less sense. Generator-killing is a meta-game tactic, not an in-genre convention. But I accept that survivors protecting the generator might not fit. So, again, as I stated above, perhaps the flavor text of the effect could be changed to You lurch towards the generator, but are distracted by all the fresh meat or something similar. Make it about the zombie's urges rather than the survivors' bravery. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 01:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Where do I start?

"Your anecdotal evidence is no more or less valid than mine. In your anecdotal evidence, NTs are already hard to take out. In my anecdotal evidence, they are very easy to take out. I suppose under various circumstances, both are valid. However, in both our experiences, the NT was taken out. Your attack was rough but not repelled, and you destroyed the NT." - The difference is mine, as with Rev's 'anecdotal evidence' below is based on the experience of defending and attacking hundreds of NTs, over years through the various updates.

"I'm still not convinced my suggestion would stop a well-organized horde like RRF or MOB from destroying an NT anytime they set their minds to it" - The RRF, MOB, MT2009 and The Dead will never have a problem taking any building they choose. This is a direct result of years of tactical evolution. It's the smaller hordes that will have the problem. You should not have to join one of the Big Four if you want to crack a single building. It's not like an individual case you're referring to, as with MCM being more difficult to take then a normal hospital, you are rolling out a blanket change amongst all buildings with absolutely no downside. Have you ever taken down a NT as a feral zombie? Perhaps you might want to get some experience with the type of play you will be affecting before altering it in a fundamental way. If this goes through they'll be less than 10 hordes that could take a NT, the Big Four, Minianz, RFTM, Swarm, FU and perhaps a couple of others. Nerfing the feral zombie class is a bad thing.

"But well-organized hordes would eventually start taking them down, because players are resourceful and want to overcome obstacles." - Why do you think it's acceptable to force zombie players to be more resourceful whilst making survivors live easier? Why aren't survivors being more resourceful in protecting the generators in a building as they do with TRPs in a suburb?

"But those who did take out NTs would have something to really brag about." - Why do you think we want to brag about something that you've made more difficult with no downside? Why would we want to brag full stop? Do we wear trenchcoats?

"You lurch towards the generator, but are distracted by all the fresh meat" - The zombie is a predator. The updates prove that they can learn on a fundamental level. Removing a generator causes panic and reduces the ability of the prey to fight back, how is this unbelievable in any way? Also, how could the zombies ignore street meat by your justification? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 13:05, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Iscariot, thank you. You may think I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. You took the time to talk this out with me, which is what I wanted. I still don't agree with you on a couple points, and I'm not crazy about your tone, but that's not as important as acknowledging that you responded in a way that makes me want to listen what you have to say. It's food for thought. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 05:16, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

What I, and indeed Kevan from his barricade blocking update, want is for the casual player, who does not metagame to be able to play the game fully. The cade blocking is designed, and indeed now used exclusively, to allow casual players to benefit from the work of the meta community without having to join that community. In the MT we use this tactic as standard, we go in and do nothing but groan, cade block and ?rise. This allows the casual players to come inside and eat humans, whereas before you could have two hundred zombies inside a mall corner in a coordinated strike but if a single survivor started to recade before they followed the groans, the casual feral was screwed. You generator blocking will mean that NTs manned by 15 to 20 players will be all but impenetrable except by the coordinated meta hordes. If an NT cannot fall, the resultant impact on a suburb that any zombie group can have is minimal. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 18:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Survivors can already protect generators. It's called ?fixgen, ask 404: Barhah not found about the time they fixed the generator 18 or so times in a row while holding off Extinction's Shadow Company death cultists. This is a buff to reward lazy survivors, which there are already too many of. Generator off? Search with slightly reduced rates or drop another one. Can't revive the rotters? That's why there are trenchcoaters with 17 shotguns. Or, yes, drop another one. Survivors throwing themselves in the way or harm for a piece of easily-replaced machinery is nonsensical and very very out-of-genre. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 02:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

In the past (and maybe even today), it is easier to find an revive syringe than it is to find a Generator. In an area where humans can easily get revived by saying Mrh? while it takes more time to find and transport a generator, I can see it being in theme for human beings willing to sacrifice themselves. Lives are cheap in Malton. Generators are not.--ShadowScope^{'the true enemy'} 22:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

There's just one problem with that. Getting eaten by zombies (I have no firsthand experience in this, though, so I could be wrong) sounds highly unpleasant. That combined with the thing called "self-preservation instinct" would probably persuade most people to just give the zombie some alone-time with the generator. At least he's not chewing your arm off. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 04:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

And that is exactly why the phrase combat revives are overpowered is correct. Revives in general are too easy to do at this point and it's not good for the game. --Karek^maps?! 11:16, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Topgun: I think it's a great idea in theory.

i personally don't think it's in genre for zombies to attack a generator over attacking a human. Considering zombies only smash things to get to humans, it seems ridiculous that a zombie could strategize enough to disable the human's power supply instead of just running straight for human brains- as they are meant to do.

however, in the context of the game, where zombies are paradoxilly controlled by humans, it would be hard to avoid unbalancing the game. If you did introduce this zombies would have to receive some sort of attack percent bonus in fully lit areas- zombies being attracted to light (as is the cause in almost ALL zombie canon) would therefore have an incentive to go directly for their true target. This would also create an interesting dilemma for the humans, as they would have to decide to kill the lights themselves and have a harder time equipping, or leaving the lights and becoming more obvious targets to the zombies.

That is the only way this could work.

Also, if survivors can't erect barricades while zombies are in the way, then zombies should not be able to destroy equipment such as this while humans are in the way- if an AP'd player is standing in the way of the generator, surely he would have to attacked in order to reach it. If he can get out of the way, out of fear, then your that's suggesting an AP'd player can essentially dodge zombies. --Topgun 13:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Oddly enough I was thinking about this yesterday... I was going to suggest making radios and generators invisible to zombies without "Memories of Life" reasoning that they don't so much not see them as don't recognize them. To compensate for what is effectively a penalty to the zombies I would think giving ransackers a chance equal to their normal attack to damage them by chance might be fair?--Honestmistake 14:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that's interesting, but I'm not sure it would change anything: you need memories of life to open the doors anyway, so the first zombie in would have it, and will still kill the genny first. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 23:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Not really... my rotter is a feral and on the few occasions that i do manage to get inside i am lucky if i have enough AP to yell some abuse and infect someone let alone ruin a generator! In an organised horde it probably wouldn't matter, but then an organised break in of 10+ zeds is going to ruin your day anyway. ;) --Honestmistake 00:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• If I was in a zombie apocalypse, and I knew which way zombies would be coming in, I'd sure as heck put the valuable generator as far away from the entry point as possible- ditto for radios. Then it makes sense that there'd be survivors between the zeds and the genny, and since at any given time most building occupants are inactive (asleep) they wouldn't flee to one side or the other. Ash Cianatti 01:22, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

If I woke up in a room full of people to see a zombie attacking a generator and ignoring all the man-meat I'd probably go back to sleep thinking it was a dream... Why would they have more interest in a hunk of metal than me? The only excuse would be if they were attracted to the noise, in which case I could go back to sleep as long as I don't snore. A change along these lines would encourage zombie to attack survivors first which (IMO) is how it should be.--Kamikazie-Bunny 18:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to start a second round of discussion on this, but I feel as though it might be tainted by the flaws in the suggestion as is. Are people okay with me starting a new header, with a less defined "suggestion" starting it off, so that we're not distracted with the flaws in the original suggestion? ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 07:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

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Suggestions up for voting

• Suggestion:20090301 Skyscrapers as Navigation Landmarks is up for voting. Discussion moved to here. Linkthewindow  Talk  10:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Suggestion:20090302 Basic Character Visuals is up for voting. Discussion moved to here. --Midianian^{¦T¦DS¦SP¦} 18:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

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