Developing Suggestions

Developing Suggestions

This section is for presenting and reviewing suggestions which have not yet been submitted and are still being worked on.

Nothing on this page will be archived.

Further Discussion

• Discussion concerning this page takes place here.
• Discussion concerning the suggestions system in general, including policies about it, takes place here.

Please Read Before Posting

• Be sure to check The Frequently Suggested List and the Suggestions Dos and Do Nots before you post your idea. You can read about many ideas that have been suggested already, which users should be aware of before posting what could be a dupe: a duplicate of an existing suggestion. These include Machine Guns and Sniper Rifles.
• Users should be aware that page is discussion oriented. Other users are free to express their own point of view and are not required to be neutral.
• If you decide not to take your suggestion to voting, please remove it from this page to avoid clutter.
• It is recommended that users spend some time familiarizing themselves with this page before posting their own suggestions.
• After new game updates, users are requested to allow time for the game and community to adjust to these changes before suggesting alterations.

How To Make a Suggestion

Adding a New Suggestion

• Copy the code in the box below.
• Click here to begin editing. This is the same as clicking the [edit] link to the right of the Suggestions header.

• Paste the copied text above the other suggestions, right under the heading.
• Substitute the text in RED CAPITALS with the details of your suggestion.

{{subst:DevelopingSuggestion
|time=~~~~
|name=SUGGESTION NAME
|type=TYPE HERE
|scope=SCOPE HERE
|description=DESCRIPTION HERE
}}

• Name - Give the suggestion a short but descriptive name.
• Type is the nature of the suggestion, such as a new class, skill change, balance change, etc. Basically: What is it? and Is it new, or a change?
• Scope is who or what the suggestion affects. Typically survivors or zombies (or both), but occasionally Malton, the game interface or something else.
• Description should be a full explanation of your suggestion. Include information like flavor text, search odds, hit percentages, etc, as appropriate. Unless you are as yet unsure of the exact details behind the suggestion, try not to leave out anything important. Check your spelling and grammar.

Cycling Suggestions

• Suggestions with no new discussion in the past two days should be given a warning notice. This can be done by adding {{SDW|date}} at the top of the discussion section, where date is the day the suggestion will be removed.
• Suggestions with no new discussion in the past week may be removed.
• If you are adding a comment to a suggestion that has the warning template please remove the {{SDW|date}} at the top of the discussion section to show that there is still ongoing discussion.

This page is prone to breaking when the page gets too long, so sometimes suggestions still under discussion will be moved to the Overflow page, so the discussion can continue.

Please add new suggestions to the top of the list

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Suggestions

Double wield

Timestamp: ==Characters== [Favalli]Survivor [BransBrans]Zombie I have one PK character but I wont say his name so that he doesnt get hunted down. Templates Template Whore This User includes as many templates as possible on his or her User Page. I mean, come on! Tusken Raider?!? Sacred Ground Policy Supporter This user or group supports the Sacred Ground Policy and acknowledges that all Cemeteries in the city of Malton are considered Revivification Points. River Tactics Supporter This User or Group supports River Tactics. A.L.I.C.E. Is Watching... This survivor is NOT paranoid. He knows his every action is being closely monitored by A.L.I.C.E. and that she is manipulating everything and everyone to her own ends. It's all just one big test... ending with cake. Ban Stupidity Kralion does not tolerate stupid people. BEWARE: Roundhouse Kick Master! This user has mastered Chuck Norris' signature only move. It's deadly! RickRolled! This user has been RickRolled and wouldn't get this from any other guy. STFU N00B Kralion recognizes the difference between a Newbie and a Noob. Du Nu Nu Nu... Kralion can touch this. No EH-bitching This user/group does not support barricading over Extremely Heavy without a good reason. Remember: overbarricading kills. Literally. It's a Joke, OK? This user supports the use of humor, even when other people don't get it. Firefox User Kralion uses Firefox. Alt user This user has alts but DOESN'T Zerg. Prevent the up?rising This user believes that playing Whack-A-Mole with zombies is plain retarded. I don't even know that guy! This User has one or more PKing characters, but the rest of his or her characters think those guys are crazy, so please don't shoot them. Big Bash 3! This user or group was with Big Bash 3. They were last seen heading home after the party. Please have your brains ready for later. Characters Backstory FAVALLI- Favalli was a succesful university student with a 15 year old sister called Lilah.They had moved to Malton with their parents but they were on vacation in scotland and they stayed with their Granfather Joe. Joe was a really good Grandfather and he owned a gun store in Malton. He had secretely teached Favalli how to use firearms and sometimes they went hunting togheter. But one day,Things changed. Favalli had just returned from university and had passed about 3 riots by now. They where getting crazier and crazier in Malton for some strange reason. When he saw home the front door was open and there was blood in the doorknob. Inside there where 3 dead bodies and Grandpa bleeding and with a 2 barrel shotgun in his hands¨Whats going on? are you all right?¨ Favalli asked. Grandpa didnt even answer. He gave him a pistol,a radio and an extra magazine and told Him ¨Boy,Get out of here now.These things will get up and bite you like they bit me¨ ¨But¨ ¨There is no time for this Favalli. Now go find your sister and look for a same place.Remember when we went hunting and I always gave your objectives? well,now the objective is to find Lilah,get to a safe place and SURVIVE¨. Favalli didnt even argue,he understand him perfectly well.He Jumped from the window and ran away as he heard blast after blast to come from the house. Its been 4 years since that day,and He is still looking for her sister and more importantly SURVIVE. 18:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: Zombie hunter skill tree

Scope: Survivor

Description:

Basically,dual wielding weapons would apply only for pistol and knife since they dont weight so much. If you are dual wielding a revolver,there is chance of making dmg x 2 since you hit with both guns, but the bad thing is that the accuracy is downed by 10%. Same goes for knife,chance of damage x 2, but 10% less accuracy. To dual wield weapons,click both of them and to stop dual wielding them click the weapon (that will become one) and they will appear in the inventory.

Discussion (Double wield)

Okay: 1) you screwed up your formatting; follow the directions next time. 2) Your grammar and spelling aren't great; your suggestion won't go far if it's hard to read, let alone support. 3) This is just a really crappy and overpowered idea that will never ever work; you do realize that zombies are player too, and don't appreciate survivors being allowed to run around with godlike weapons? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

You haven't even mentioned my favourite part. Pistol starting accuracy = 5%. Pistol accuracy is reduced by 10%. Pistol accuracy = -5%. So... It definitely won't work, and there's a 5% chance of healing the zombie for 10 damage? --Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 20:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

How would this affect the ammo count of the gun(s)? Also, having a chance of double damage for pistols means it is the same as a shotgun(when the double damage happens) but with 15% more accuracy. Too overpowered. Younna: It wouldn't heal, it would just never hit. --Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}20:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Ignore the accuracy comment. I can't military skills. --Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}20:53, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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Paper Crown Hat Count

Timestamp: Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: Paper Crown Hat Count

Scope: Stats Page

Description: Paper Crown Hat Count

Discussion (Paper Crown Hat Count)

Thanks to cari for the idea. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't be a dumbass over things dawg-- SA 19:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm, serious; why shouldn't we have them? We track trees don't we, and what's the harm? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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Candy Count

Timestamp: Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: Candy Count

Scope: Stats Page

Description: Candy Count

Discussion (Candy Count)

Don't be a dumbass over things yo'-- SA 19:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm, serious; why shouldn't we have them? We track trees don't we, and what's the harm? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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Knife Differentiation

Timestamp: RinKou 01:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: Useless flavor

Scope: Knife users

Description: I can't remember when Kevan made the search flavor text change that differentiated between knives (as in the hunting knives in sporting goods stores, rusty knives in junkyards, and large scalpels in infirmaries), but since we have visible kill-weapons now, having the differentiation back would be nice. Now, I know what the problem with this is. That last change was a change in flavor text. No matter what text you got, it was still a knife in the end. This change affects the knife itself as an object, seperating it into those three (plus? Those are the only ones I remember) redundant objects. So, in either case, three (or more) new weapons: hunting/rusty/scalpel, same stats, no changes save for the cosmetic, found in the exact same places at the exact same rates. All current knives in existence are just "knives" of the nondescript variety. If you want a special knife, you need to go loot a new one, just for coding convenience. Presumably, nondescript knives are still findable in the same locations.

Discussion (Knife Differentiation)

I really don't like scalpels being used as knives, because they're fragile as fucks sometimes.-- SA 01:53, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Mostly just code duplication, as well as special stuff like carving pumpkins - there'd have to be some kind of check for "do you have a knife to carve this with" when you tried to use one. Yeah, just a Halloween thing, but small stuff. I'd probably vote keep. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 01:54, 5 November 2009 (BST)

IT'S NOT BECAUSE I'M EMO YOU DICK. I actually am a big fan of papercraft. I have a friend who's a nurse and he gives me a shit ton of the disposable scalpels that they have where he works. Things suck ass, but they're free! ^^ -- SA 01:59, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

YOU DONT EVEN HAVE A JOB. Jobs are essential for the economy you know. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 02:08, 5 November 2009 (BST)

I was temping at another ware house, until today. They layed off the entire side I was working on because of the other workers starting fights with each other. Shit sux yo'-- SA 02:11, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

For some reason, I had thought they were simply called "Kitchen Knife" before that change. I didn't realize they were consolidated as well. Anyway, I'm in favor of the flavor. —Aichon— 02:13, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

No, we homogenised the knives for ease, otherwise we're going to have to program every single pistol make and type into the game, every make and type of shotgun, every make and type of hockey stick.... -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 02:15, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

That pretty much sums it up as to why this is uncessarry.--Pesatyel 04:29, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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number of survivors total in a building and their classes.

Timestamp: Winman1 00:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: number of people of a certain class in a building.

Scope: text inside a building.

Description: When you enter a building it will say the "total number of survivors" inside a building and how many survivors of each class there is inside the building. For example it would say "there are x survivors in this building. x Are military. x are scientists. x are civilians. There are x zombie hunters here."

Discussion (number of survivors total in a building and their classes.)

There's not a whole lot of problems with this, besides "screen spam" and "what happens with 50+ people?" I'd say it should not give you these stats unless you hit "show full list" (or whatever it is with 50+ survivors), as you could only gather that info manually if you had done that (it costs another IP hit, basically). Otherwise, it's just automation of intel gathering... though the other thing to consider is the screen spam. There's no difference between a level 41 military character and a level 41 scientist - and both are (presumably, unless they made some weird skill choices) already zombie hunters to boot. I do suppose the whole "zombie hunters" value is a quick way to assess how many survivors are high-level in a building. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 01:31, 5 November 2009 (BST)

Being that I see scientists in army/police regalia frequently, I think this idea is dumb. You CAN'T know what class someone is until you see them in action or ask them. Looking at them won't tell you shit.-- SA 01:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Classes really don't matter at all after the first few levels, so that information would just be bloat text. And if there are a lot of people in a building (i.e. 50+), it already tells you how many are there (e.g. "You are inside Monica General Hospital. There is a crowd of 59 survivors here."). Anything less than that and there's very little reason to display the information anyway, since a quick glance will tell you if it's closer to 1, 10, or 50. As for zombie hunters...it has some use, but I don't see how you can explain being able to see the stat instantly. —Aichon— 01:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Teeeeeext Spaaaaaaaam!--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 07:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't we have little boxes around their names on the minimap with different background colours denoting starting class? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 08:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

This could be done with a GreaseMonkey script --Explodey 11:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It essentially already has been done. —Aichon— 20:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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Pumpkin Count

Timestamp: Yonnua Koponen Talk ! Contribs 19:55, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: Pumpkin Count

Scope: Stats page

Description: Pumpkin Count.

Discussion (Pumpkin Count)

Yes. There's nothing else to say, really. —Aichon— 20:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Aye. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Pumpkins, pumpkins, pumpkins! User:Armpit_Odor/sig - 21:51 4 November 2009 (BST)

Ready to go to the main system?--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 22:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how there's any room for improving on the idea. Either you're for it or against it, so you might as well put it to a vote. So, yep. —Aichon— 23:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, can't remember the format for the moved to voting. Anyone else got a clue?--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 23:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

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Heroic Death

Timestamp: Mooman72v2 18:28, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: New (Zombie Hunter?) Skill

Scope: Survivors

Description: Here's the idea: We add a new civllian (maybe Zombie Hunter) skill or skills, each costs 100 XP, the first of which is "Last Words" which allows one to set in their profile something that the player will say as a free action (0 AP) when they die. Other skills, purchasable after Last Words, incude: Heroic Death: When a character (with the skill) is killed, he makes an auto-attack with the last weapon used, at half accuracy, using up 1 AP. If the last weapon was a gun and is out of ammo, or was dropped since then, or if they have 0 AP, the attack is not made. Movie Gun: When a character (with the skill) is attacking with a pistol and runs out of ammo, with no pistol clips, they have a 5% chance of somehow getting another bullet. Like those movies where the guns only run out of ammuntition when it's convinient.

Discussion (Heroic Death)

First, why? Second, Last Words = spam. Third, Heroic Death = auto-attack, and auto-attacks are usually dead in the water. Fourth, Movie Gun = genre-breaking, since guns in zombie movies always run out of ammo too early, rather than at the convenient time. —Aichon— 18:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Exactly as Aichon said.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 19:48, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Spam. User:Armpit_Odor/sig - 21:49 4 November 2009 (BST)

This dupe is older than America. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 02:18, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Last Words is a Dupe. Heroic Death is overpowered, unless you upped the AP cost a lot or something, but even then, don't count on it. Movie Gun is just Hella-Retarded.--Pesatyel 04:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

WTF CENTAURS - In America! (someone had to say it) Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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Show Encumbrance At Top of Inventory

Timestamp: A Big F'ing Dog 17:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: Improvement

Scope: Inventory

Description: I suggest displaying encumbrance level above the inventory. It would change "Inventory (click to use)" to "Inventory (click to use): X% encumbered." Why? Because when searching players often check to see how close they are to maximum encumbrance. This might require scrolling down to the bottom of the screen several times. Although scrolling down requires minimal effort there is no reason to not eliminate this minor persistent hassle, and this change requires no new coding just a minor page edit. Encumberance could still be displayed below your inventory.

Discussion (Show Encumbrance At Top of Inventory)

Keep - Why not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mooman72v2 (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.

This isn't a vote. :) This is where the suggestion gets bantered around for awhile before going up in flames, fading into obscurity, or moving on to the vote. Anyway, I like the idea. It's simple, would remove the need for a line of text, and would put useful information further up the page, making it more accessible. Simple, but useful. —Aichon— 18:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Why should my interface change after 4 years for your personal preferences. Get Greasemonkey. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 02:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Allow me to once again enumerate ad nauseam why it's a better way to do things. —Aichon— 02:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Izzy, I'll give you one really good reason why your interface could (and might just should) change after four years, the game does not revolve around you. I like the suggestion for the same reason Aichon does, it is simple, it is useful, and it is a nice and easy fix for kevan to make. No harm in it, and a bit of good. (Not much mind you, but it all makes a difference) -Devorac 06:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC) PS. Also for a number people I know, greasemonkey doesn't work so well. Really Izzy chill out and remember that other people play this game, not just you. -Devorac 06:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It's not just him, I don't like having my interface change very often either. I'm used to having it where it's at, and I like it where it's at. :c -- SA 13:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I know, and I would have no problems with it if he had said "Why should everyone's interface change..." it was the "My" that got me... People will decide if this goes to vote (kinda unlikely but wonders never cease) Personally I don't mind my interface,it only clutters when I'm carrying an absolute ton of FAKs and Needles, but this change has a merit to it. -Devorac 18:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

SA, I agree with you. It's useful to have it at the bottom of the inventory. But why not have it at the top as well? It's not like that line "(Click to use)" is so important that adding a bit of useful information after it will be distracting. --A Big F'ing Dog 19:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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vaccine against infection

Timestamp: kralion 3:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: medicine

Scope: survivors

Description: Once I became a zombie and I had lots of things as a survivor,like a shotgun and lots munnition and a home in which my friends inside killed me and dumped me outside and I wished so bad I could get my things back,but the only way is to get a Revivification Syringe and a player that actually wants to make you a human again,but it takes a lot of time to find both. So I think that in the game a vaccine against becoming infected should be consider,when you use the vaccine you gain inmunity from the zombie virus in the game,but it only lasts a week or 10 infectious bites.If you die with the vaccine on it wont make any difference,you will wake up as a zombie.the vaccine would most likely be found in hospitals and necrotech buildings,they are likely to become very valuable and rare,though necrotech employees can create them,but they need to be in a necrotech lab.

Discussion (vaccine against infection)

So, this is a vaccine that NT employees can manufacture at NT facilities (or can be found by anyone at an NT facility or hospital), and its purpose is to simply stop Infectious Bite from working for either a week or 10 bites? This seems unnecessary, since FAKs are relatively easy to come by and can remove the infection. And since every survivor should be carrying a few FAKs at all times to deal with infection and being attacked, it seems like it's not that big of a deal. Infectious Bite only really comes into play when you have a survivor who gets away while low on HP. Otherwise, it's little more than a nuisance. There's no need to provide survivors with an edge over zombies in this area. —Aichon— 18:39, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

As above. Well said, Aichon. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 08:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Though I would say infection is useful for discouraging and/or slowing down actives in general, not just folks that escape combat with a few hp, I mostly agree with Aichon. All you'd really accomplish with this is to eliminate IB's use in deterring/distracting active defenders and making real-time survivor vs zombie duels closer. Query, is this meant to be something used only by the beneficiary, or can one player use it on a different player? If it's the latter, this could be a big nuisance to players that want to be infected most/all of the time. --Mold 19:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Infection is fine, doesn't need nerfing. --Papa Johnny 19:39, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Bad idea, worse formatting. User:Armpit_Odor/sig - 19:59 3 November 2009 (BST)

I hope to god this idea is as shitty as it appears, because otherwise it's a suggestion to make people immune to zombification. This is almost as bad as that agility crap that was all over DS. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 20:13, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

It's just dealing with Infectious Bite. It had no impact on zombification. —Aichon— 20:32, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Not that the grate engrish helped clairify tat. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 20:58, 3 November 2009 (BST)

Either way, its an unneeded nerf. Infection is only dangerous to newbies.--Pesatyel 03:18, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

And people in red zones; infection is really becoming a pain in Roftwood at the moment. Regardless of that fact, infection remains pretty underpowered in most situations. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

True, there are always other situations. But you hit the nail on the head. Infection is underpowered and doesn't need to be made weaker.--Pesatyel 04:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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Dropping junk out of buildings

Timestamp: Winman1 21:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: attacking

Scope: survivors

Description: when you are inside a barricaded building you can drop things out the window for 1 AP to damage zombies standing outside the building (if any are present). You cant target a specific zombie or person, its just a random target. Once you drop an item from the building, it is removed from your inventory. Without any skills, dropping an item out of a building has 5% accuracy. With hand to hand combat, the accuracy is 20%. A person with knife combat or axe proficientcy will have a 25% chance of damaging a zombie with the item for that particular skill. Light items such as newspapers, beer, wine,books, and crucifixes will always hit a zombie (if one is there) with 0 damage. normal items such as Hockey Sticks, pool cues, ski poles knives and golf clubs will cause 1 damage if they sucessfully hit a zombie standing outside. Heavy items such as fire axes cricket bats, baseball bats, lengths of pipe, and toolboxes can cause 2 damage. If you drop an item out of a building and have noone standing outside you just lose the item with no damage to anyone.

Discussion (Dropping junk out of buildings)

Although the accuracy and damage is low, this is still just a way for survivors to attack the underpowered zombie side without even leaving the confines of their safehouse. I don't dig it, jack. 21:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

As above. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 21:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Read this. Should make it clear. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

As both Misanthropy and Ross have said. —Aichon— 21:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Its also a dupe of several other suggestions. Personally i have no problem with the concept as long as accuracy is terrible, you don't get XP for doing it and it can't cause headshots! --Honestmistake 22:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Do you get the chance to target a specific character? I hope not (because you would need X-ray vision for that.) If not then who is targeted? The zombie at the top of the stack? A random zombie? A passing survivor? --Explodey 22:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Wait, not only are you proposing all of what's already been torn out of this, but you also want HTH to improve its accuracy? What? How? Why? In what way does your ability to perform tai otoshi help you drop things accurately? You have to actuall be 'hand to hand' for HTH to work, the clue's in the title. Or have you learnt The Art of Dropping Anvils by Grandmaster W. E. Coyote? Not even Hatsumi would make something so dumb up, and he's invented some right crap in his time. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 00:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

You know who used to spamflood DS? Blake Firedancer. I miss those days; his suggestions almost always sucked, but at least they were experienced and plausible... Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 00:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Tselita was funnier. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 00:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I feel simultaneously honoured and insulted. --Blake Firedancer ^{T E RNL? P.I.S.I.T.} 03:49, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I kind of miss the Tranny now that you mention it.-- SA 02:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Have you been reading up on BlueSpurt's failed Ideas? 'Cause this one reminds me powerfully of one of his that died in writhing agony...-Devorac 23:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

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Negative AP visibility

Timestamp: Explodey 20:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Type: UI, Game mechanic change (minor)

Scope: Survivors with Construction or Lab Experience. PKers.

Description: When a survivor goes into negative AP (e.g. after repairing a long-ruined building or manufacturing a syringe), they will be described as "sleeping" in the location description, so other players can see that they just repaired the building or manufactured a syringe they will probably not move for a while they would probably appreciate it if any passing survivors barricade the building. Other points Only the fact that they are asleep is shown, not their exact AP. Having -9 or higher AP would not trigger it, only -10 or below, so a player will never appear as sleeping due to standing up or reviving. Alternatively the threshold could be lower, e.g. -20 or even -50, which would show that they are not going to move today. PKers gain 25% XP (instead of the usual 50%) for attacking a sleeping survivor (not a big deterrent, but makes clear that this is discouraged.) Zombies still get 100% as normal. I would not worry about this cluttering the screen. Only one player per day can go into negative AP by repairing the same building. And manufacturing needles is rare anyway.

Discussion (Negative AP visibility)

PKers get 25% AP for attacking a sleeping survivor? What? Surely you mean XP. Also, no, unnecessary.--Thadeous Oakley 20:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

You're right, I meant XP. Edited. --Explodey 22:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely unnecessary and pointless. If a person is not logged in, their character is considered "sleeping". Why are we now redefining this and blatantly showing who won't be able to do anything for (potentially) a long time? That's part of the excitement--not knowing when they will log back in and do something! --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 21:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing Thad is right and he means 25% XP. Even so, this change is very arbitrary. PKers are already discouraged from attacking survivors, so why discourage them further? What's the point in showing that people are sleeping if not to make things both more dangerous and more apparent that they're in need of help? Also, why the arbitrary "it only works below -10AP" idea? Why wouldn't something like this work for any negative value? And even if all of these are dealt with, see Maverick's last point. Part of the fun is not knowing. —Aichon— 21:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Violates basic D&DN guidelines while also managing to do nothing of any value. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Make it a zombie only skill on the scent tree and it could have some potential but as a general freebie its a a big fat NO! --Honestmistake 22:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

So your trying to deter PKing by making them only get 25% XP? You do know that a lot of PKers PK because they are assholes, not because they need XP. This boils down to telling everyone "attack me, I won't respond for a long time" (especially if you "lower the threshold"). I see absolutely NO benefit to this and the ONE you actually came up with, that someone might be nice enough to barricade for you, is nothing compared to all the nice little bad things that would ensue.--Pesatyel 22:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

OH HAI GUYS PEEKAYARS R ALL ASSHOLES N PLAY RONG OMG ITS TRUE.

Dick.

23:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say all. I said a lot. Grow up.--Pesatyel 01:34, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

It's just a token penalty. Although all my PKer characters have gained all their XP from PKing (never attacking zombies or healing) I'm not assuming other PKers will care about it. It's not supposed to be an important part of the suggestion. --Explodey 23:02, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

If it wasn't supposed to be an important part of the suggestion, why is it there at all? --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 23:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Because he needed SOME kind of penalty to make it seem less overpowered and that was all he could think of.--Pesatyel 01:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

So this suggestion adds a status effect that can only be applicable in two instances, syringes and suicide repairs? It then follows with a nerf, for no apparent reason and the proposal is based around a free form of communication? Am I following this ridiculousness?

For a start it's only going to occur in one situation, no-one intelligent manufactures syringes. Importantly people who suicide repair expect to die, there's a reason it's called a suicide repair. The aim of these repairs is not to stay alive by barricading the building and retaking it then and there, it's to reset the clock on the AP expenditure to allow anyone one else to move in, repair, cade and leave in the same 50AP cycle. There's no logical reason for the XP drop, none at all. Finally the notion that survivors need more avenues of communication is dumb, they already have the most and easiest in the game. If they're not using the ones they have, why should they get new ones? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 00:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

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Shattered glass

Timestamp:--Winman1 21:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Type: Barricade improvement?

Scope: survivors

Description: When you acquire a Beer/Wine Bottle there is an option to "shatter bottle". This can only be done by survivors when they are on the outside of a building with barricades. Doing this removes it from your inventory, and gives a message "you smash the bottle, spreading its shards into the barricade." Afterwards the building description on the outside will include "There are glass shards spread in the barricade. Zombies, when attacking these barricades have a 35% chance of receiving 2 dmg when attacking barricades which contain shards. Once any zombie is injured by these glass shards, shards are removed from the barricade, with the text "You smash at the barricade. Shattered glass injures you for 2 dmg." The shards can only damage a zombie if they attack the barricade. Barricades themselves can still be damaged by zombies whether there are glass shards or not. Glass shards can only be applied 5 times total. This does not mean it will cause 5dmg. It is still 35% to hit 1dmg, but can successfully damage zombies for 2 dmg 5 times before being removed from barricades. This suggestion would simply improve barricades slightly deterring zombies and make a near useless item useful.

Discussion (Shattered glass)

1. Barricades are fairly well balanced right now, if anything they are a tad too strong... Hurting zombies who try to smash them down will not go over well, at all.

2. Why the hell are zombies being badly damaged by teeny glass shards?!?! Really, these are zombies, shambling rotting corpses who couldn't care less that the got a glass splinter, think about it you are having this do the same damage as stabbing a zombie with a knife, WAY too much damage.

3. How are survivors sticking these things into the barricades? You can't just smash a bottle on the cades and hope that a zombie will walk over and snog the glass shards.

4. A lot of people will consider this a dupe of the six billion and ten shattered bottle suggestions, while I haven't seen anything quite like yours (Not necessarily a good thing) wait till Iscariot posts. -Devorac 19:42, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

First, why the hell would glass shards do 2 damage? Secondly, beer and wine already have 2 uses. They can heal AND they do a lot of damage with a hit (3 points). If you want to "improve" the bottles, I've got 2 ideas on both of the above mention "abilities". Treat them like spraycans that have a certain amount of "uses" for healing (say, from 1 to 3 per bottle) and give them a % chance of NOT breaking when used in an attack (even glass bottles can be pretty sturdy). Or, for simplicity, give them the "effects" of both the spraycan and the pool cue. Oh and, one last thing, if the bottles can be applied "5 times total" does that mean the first zombie to attack the barricade takes 10 damage?--Pesatyel 19:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I think he's saying that there are up to five "charges" on the barricades. That is, if a zombie attacks five times and is unfortunate enough to get the 35% chance for damage each time, they'll have taken two damage five times, as opposed to ten damage one time. Anyway, not a fan. As was said, barricades are already rough enough on small groups of zombies as it is (and this change wouldn't affect hordes much since five charges of glass would last about five minutes). I think it's interesting flavor, but I don't see it making much sense, and I don't like the effect it has. —Aichon— 20:15, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. My point was to point out the author needs to explain that a little better is all. The suggestion is bad but that doesn't mean we can't help him so the next one is better.--Pesatyel 22:54, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Also sounds like an autoattack. Besides, does anybody remember that HP means nothing to all but the lowest level zombies? Much less 2 damage, which wouldn't have any effect even if zombies cared about HP. And, as mentioned above, I'm sure tearing apart wooden barricades with your bare hands gets much nastier jagged wood gashes than little sprinkled glass shards could ever hope to achieve. Sounds like this'd stop survivors trying to climb into entry points moreso than zombies. In which case it'd be an unneeded death cultist ability. RinKou 23:15, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

MOAR ZOMBIE RAPE ON THIS PAGE PLZ-- SA 23:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Urgh, there are so many Epic Fails popping out for Haloween, but using my Epic Fail template on all of them will make it mundane and meaningless! Curse you fate, you irony-loving bitch! Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 01:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Someone mentioned my name? This is another piece of dumbness from someone who thinks survivors are all valorous and pious and zombies and PKers are bad, evil, wrong and wear black hats and must be crippled by the game 4 GRATE JUSTISS!!1!! This is an auto-attack suggestion, a trap, this is shotgun trap with the bottle being substituted as the offending implement. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 20:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

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Alphabetization of Items

Timestamp: KainYusanagi 21:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Type: Ease of "what do I have in my inventory?" play.

Scope: All Items

Description: Simple... Items get alphabetized. i don't know how many times I've lost track of my ammo while it's mixed into with FAKs or other things.... the buttons get really messy. Could we just get a little order to the things we pick up?-KainYusanagi 21:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion (Alphabetization of Items)

This doesn't effect the merits of your suggestion, but there are Firefox plugins like UDtool and Greasemonkey extensions that organize your inventory for you, in case you wanted this, you know, actually fixed. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 21:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep, if you use Firefox and have Greasemonkey (or use Safari and GreaseKit or Chrome and GreaseMetal), Midianian has a great script called UDICOS that does what you're looking for and more. Regardless, heck yes. The interface is a mess and needs major reorganization (*cough*). Alphabetization definitely helps. Even just grouping similar items. —Aichon— 22:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't run Greassmonkeys or any of those other plugins, partially due to having issues with them having caused infections in the past and partially because I'm what I'd call an "originalist"... I play games with their original UIs because that's what's provided. I'd rather the source issue get fixed over just trying to cover it up. >.>;-KainYusanagi 06:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Let's be honest here, even if this suggestion gets passed, which it well may not, it's not likely the issue will be resolved, and certainly not quickly. Greasemonkey is virus-free, and if you're worried about infections, get NoScript for your browser and lock up your Javascript. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 13:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it pass? Granted there are better things already in Peer Review, this isn't bad nor is it going to break anything. Using "you can use scripts" isn't a reason to kill.--Pesatyel 22:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Because not that many suggestions pass these days, and because passing in no way means, implies, or even gives reason to hope that your idea will be implemented; it's just a pool Kevin might someday reach into if he runs low on think-juice. Granted, he's implemented suggestions before, but that was ages ago... Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 01:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

That has more to do with the general apathy of us wiki patrons then it does the suggestions. Why do you think the really bad ones get so much "discussion"?--Pesatyel 01:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't want my items alphabetised. I want to be able to find them in the order they entered my inventory. Why should my basic user interface be changed for your sense of OCD? -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 21:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I would consider someone who wanted items to be displayed in the order that they were procured to have a stronger sense of OCD than the person that wanted to alphabetize items that are essentially jumbled together. It's one thing to accuse someone of having a sense of OCD if they're alphabetizing food in the pantry or some such nonsense, but it's entirely different when we're talking about buttons whose only representation is text on the screen. Alphabetization/lexicographical order makes sense here. Also, the order in the current system only functions if the user memorizes the order that they gathered the items. Since most people are not sufficiently skilled at memorization, nor have the desire to memorize such mundane details, the sensible thing to do is to put the items in an order that more players can use effectively. This can also be used to improve muscle memory to an extent, which is a desirable trait of user interfaces. —Aichon— 22:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The point is that you want to change my interface from what I prefer to what you prefer for no other reason than you'd prefer it that way. Give me a good reason why this change should be made when people have been coping fine for four years. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 00:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll agree that he didn't provide reasons in the description. As for me, I gave you at least three in my last comment: it makes sense, more players can use it effectively, and muscle memory can be applied. If you want a few additional ones:

• People are used to dealing with alphabetical order, so it should be easier for newbies to learn how to use the interface (i.e. more intuitive to learn), which is good, since we all like newbies,
• It's easier to pick up where you left off when you come back on following days, since most people would have forgotten the order in which they picked up their items (i.e. no need for memory),
• It's more intimidating to an end user when they can't make sense of the things in front of them, and grouping like objects with each other reduces the complexity (i.e. it helps to eliminate the choice paradox),
• I could also cite Fitts's Law and the fact that the current system increases mouse travel distance by not having similar objects grouped (i.e. it takes longer to use),
• If a user doesn't have the order memorized, they have to go searching for the next item after the one that they clicked on disappears from their inventory (e.g. if you need to FAK someone multiple times), whereas alphabetization lets people have an intuition for where it should appear.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons as well, and if I had my old computer-human interaction textbook, I'm sure I could cite a few case studies and whatnot. I'll grant that none of the reasons I gave are "slam dunk" reasons in and of themselves, but when an advocate for the current system is using terms like "cope" to refer to how users deal with the it, a slam dunk answer shouldn't even be necessary.

Besides, I've seen you around the wiki, and I've observed that you like to make decisions based on evidence and reason (at least, that's my opinion, though I may be mistaken, of course). While your personal experience may color your reasoning, as it does with all of us, I don't think you are honestly trying to suggest that this is a mere case of opinion vs. opinion and that there is no argument to be made for alphabetization as a superior arrangement over a seemingly-random one. I'm sure you're making the argument for some reason, but what it is, I can't fathom. —Aichon— 03:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Isn't the newest item you picked up put at the bottom when you get it?--Pesatyel 04:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Yep. That's what we've been talking about. —Aichon— 04:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Then the above points are all...relatively pointless. The game doesn't magically rearrange your stuff when you stop playing.--Pesatyel 07:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

But unless you memorized the order in which you picked up your items, you'll have no basis for understanding the arrangement of the items when you come back the next day. That's one of the major problems with the current system. —Aichon— 14:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

So, it is REALLY that hard to figure out the order? That the object at the bottom is the last one you picked up? And the one the one at the top is the first one you picked up? I can see where there might be some confusion to those unfamilar with the way English is displayed (left to right and down to the next line) but it really seems like all the "points" are just nitpick justifications. 1) Its not like objects "go bad" so what does it matter the order you picked stuff up? 2) Alphabetizing isn't necessarily going to alleviate the problem of "having to move the mouse too much" when you have to just click on the object. Its not like you have to drag and drop the shotgun shell to the shotgun. Not to mention there are better ideas then simple alphabetizing. I'm not saying the idea is a bad one, just that there are better ones and that the above points seem, to me, to be overdoing it a bit.--Pesatyel 02:34, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I feel like we're on different wavelengths here. Figuring out the order is not the issue. Being able to find items in your inventory is, and an ordering based on when items were picked up is not conducive to finding them later since it relies on memorization or else just visually searching. I'm afraid I don't quite understand or see the relevance of your #1 point, your #2 one seems to miss the obvious (best example: if using FAKs repeatedly, you wouldn't have to move the mouse at all since the next FAK in the inventory would take up the exact same pixels as the previous one if they were grouped next to each other, which would be guaranteed with alphabetization, but is not guaranteed now), and the third point (that there are better ideas) should not have an impact on determining the worth of this suggestion. I'll admit that I was making a big argument over small details, but reasons were requested, so I simply enumerated a few. —Aichon— 04:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we probably are. I don't suppose it matters. I'd probably vote keep even though there are better suggestions already in PR.--Pesatyel 02:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

luhlwhut? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 03:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

If that was aimed at me, allow me to paraphrase and simplify my earlier point: "no u. my way is better." —Aichon— 03:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

o i c wut u did thur. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 03:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

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New Skill: Agility Version 2

Timestamp: Chase1993 12:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Type: New Skill

Scope: Survivors AND Zombies

Description: Alright, so here's my new and improved Agility suggestion. Again, this would be a Civilian skill; it would only be available once a player has learned Free Running and is level 10 or above. '''''1.''''' Would give a flat 5% chance that a survivor would not lose an AP when doing ANY action that requires an AP. '''''2.''''' Would give a 80%/60%/40% chance that a survivor with this skill would be able to climb over HB, VHB, and EHB barricades, respectively. Once the survivor has tried, if he failed he cannot try on that same building on that same day. As before, this is to not make it overpowering for Pkers and Death Cultists, and so as to not replace Free Running. '''''3.''''' Any zombie on the block when a player climbs over would be able to "see the routes the player takes to get over the barricade" and would have a 40%/30%/20% (basically half the survivor rate) chance to climb over the barricade. This zombie would be able to try TWICE to get over. If it fails both times, the zombie could not try again. (Note 1: This would only work if the survivor had actually succeeded in getting over the barricade. Note 2: Zombies would NOT have to have the skill, NOR be level 10 to follow a survivor over the barricade) IF the zombie succeeds in getting over the barricade, for the following 10 minutes ANY zombie that comes into the block would see this message "You see the telltale signs of a route over the barricades; obviously a fellow undead has recently cimbed over this barricade" or something to that effect. That zombie would then have two chances (same rates as any other zombie) to climb over the barricade. '''''3.''''' A survivor could make a barricade unclimbable from the inside. As before, this would NOT make the barricade any stronger, but WOULD cost an AP to do. Again, this would be for paranoid survivors scared of Pkers and Death Cultists, or just people trying to be assholes. '''''4.''''' A killed survivor could carry over a portion of this skill into the undeath; namely, he would have a 4% chance for an action to not cost an AP. He would NOT, however, be able to climb barricades (accept if he's following a survivor, as above). Alright, there's my revised Agility suggestion. I hope I have made it more balanced, and of course, the numbers are subject to change. '''''Clarification 1:''''' A zombie CANNOT learn this skill unless he had learned it as a survivor and then been killed. '''''Clarification 2:''''' Just in case anyone's wondering, the 4% chance for zombies is not a typo, it's meant to be that way. Come on, whoever heard of agile zombies? '''''Clarification 3''''' As to previous concerns of it overpowering Pkers and Death Cultists: Firstly, I think in real-life, this could happen. A traitor COULD leave the building and show the zombies a way in. Secondly, I think if we're adding a buff to Survivors and Zombies, it's only fair to add a buff for Death Cultists, especially as it would be something they COULD do in real-life. '''''Clarification 4:''''' Free Running is, as Rorybob stated, a Military skill. I thought to make Agility a Civilian skill so as to make it more accessible to all classes. However, it doesn't really matter to me which class it's under. Anyway, that's my idea. Now have fun tearing it to shreds. --Chase1993 12:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion (New Skill: Agility Version 2)

Free Running is a military skill; therefore this skill should be a Military skill, not, as stated in the description, a Civilian skill. --Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}12:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

My bad. What do you think of the actual skill though? --Chase1993 12:37, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Once again I want to know why you think survivors need more AP. - User:Whitehouse 12:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the climbing of barricades should happen. It borders on gamebreaking, especially when you factor in a horde of zombies seeing a survivor climb into a large building; the building would be lost within the day. Depending, of course, on the size of the horde and their luck. --Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}12:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: WHITEHOUSE: With my new revision though, it wouldn't just be survivors gaining AP, it would potentially be zombies as well. Plus, other AP increasing skills have passed Peer Review, so obviously it's not entirely disliked. I mean, come on, everybody wants a little more AP. --Chase1993 12:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe that zombies should be forced to buy a survivor skill to be on par AP wise with survivors. - User:Whitehouse 13:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course, my intention was to make a Survivor skill; the zombie part was just to balance it out. Plus, zombies are already buffed in this new skill with the ability to climb barricades. If you have any balancing ideas though, please post. --Chase1993 13:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

How would this effect actions costing more than 1 ap, for example, repairs, manufacturung syringes and dumping bodies out of forts? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 13:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It would still only give a 5% chance for 1 AP to not be lost; only 1 AP, mind. Or perhaps two seperate 5% chance rolls; that might be too overpowering though. --Chase1993 13:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Get rid of the AP boost altogether. The barricade climbing in and of itself is a workable idea, if not a duped one. RinKou 16:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I would disagree, since it seems like the most fundamentally broken part of the suggestion. The issues with it are still far from resolved, and some are actually worse now. With the death cultists, even though it might be more "realistic" (as realistic as anything can be in a zombie apocalypse game) for them to be able to lead zombies in, it still is game-breaking, and realism != fun. If there's a horde of zombies outside and you give them two 20% chances to get in after seeing a death cultist succeed, on average, 36% will be following that death cultist into the mall through the EHB barricades for the cost of 1-2AP, which is actually worse than the last suggestion. Plus, now, 36% of the zombies that arrive within 10 minutes will get to do it as well, which actually makes things even worse.

Also, there's the issue of forcing players to switch sides to be the best at their side. It's a poor game design decision, and the community pretty much seems to agree that each side should have all the skills they need to be the best they can be. Adding a skill like this would be a nuisance for Brain Rotted zombie players and makes little sense from a game design perspective.

He's also mentioned, but hasn't detailed, the fact that people on the inside can reinforce the barricades so that they can't be entered via climbing. How does that mechanic work? How much AP does it cost? What sort of flavor text is visible to the people inside and outside? Does it have a chance to fail at being reinforced? How would the reinforcement be taken out if it's not the same as a barricade level? It's definitely better than the last suggestion, but it still has too many open issues. —Aichon— 17:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Re-workable, I should've said. It's not a insta-kill as AP gain would be. RinKou 21:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

This idea still sucks

This idea still sucks

This idea still sucks

This idea still sucks

This idea still sucks

This idea still sucks

This idea still sucks

Did you not read the template on your last one? Try reading the basic guidelines on suggestions and actually thinking about them before you crap them out all over DS. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 21:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

The only way I could think of to even begin to "balance" this would be that, if you "fail" your 5% to save your AP, you have a 20% chance of USING twice as much instead. As for the barricade part, give me a break. That's not even worth discussing. Oh, I might add, MULTI.-Pesatyel 19:30, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Chase, I would you mind deleting your earlier version of this idea?-Devorac 03:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC) (PS preferably this version too)

People who know nothing about death cultists should never be suggesting things that explicitly mention them. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 00:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

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No Freerunning from Ruins

Timestamp: RinKou 23:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Type: Ruin tweak

Scope: Survivors with freerunning, zombies with ruin.

Description: I'm sure the general consensus is ruin is a very powerful skill. Maintained ruin in TRPs can and will shut down a suburb unless supplies can come in from outside, or the buildings are retaken. This still only applies to TRPs, though. As far as any other building goes, zombies not only have few reasons to ruin them, but they're at a severe disadvantage to even put out the effort to do so. A zombie will ruin a non-TRP building for only three reasons: 1. Reduce places survivors can hide safely. 2. Morale boost for zombies/hit for survivors. 3. Disrupt freerunning lanes. Seeing as if repaired within the first week of being ruined, survivors still have a net AP gain over the zombie who ruined the building. That, plus how easily an unmaintained ruin (bound to be the non-TRPs) can be barricade strafed, we have each of these ruins costing zombies significant amounts of AP, both for tearing down the barricades in the first place as well as ruining it. Secondly, the morale boost works both ways. If anything, it's stacked against the zombies much more. At current ratess, a survivor can repair six ruins for every one ruin a zombie can make, assuming it's unmaintained. And as noted, no real zombie is going to maintain a non-TRP ruin. Not only does that put zombies at the AP disadvantage as noted above, but it also allows survivors to claim, "Look how efficiently we're reclaiming the suburb from the horde," boosting their morale theoretically 6:1. So that leaves the only real tactical reason for ruining non-TRP buildings: disrupting freerunning lanes. You can't freerun in to a ruin, forcing survivors to spend 3 extra AP to go around each one. One to jump onto the street next to the ruin, one to move to the ruined square, and one to enter the ruin and be reconnected to the freerunning lane. The only problem with this strategy is, though, ruins, if anything, help feral survivors to be so much more easily connected to a freerunning lane. A survivor unfamiliar with a suburb who doesn't metagame no longer has to check every building for an entry point. They can spot ruins easily on their 3x3 map and just get in one to hop into the lane. All that being said then, let's say we disallow freerunning from ruined buildings. Attempting to do so would result in the flavor text: "The ledges and outcrops on this building are too dilapidated to free run from." and an AP is spent for the attempt, but the character will not be moved a space. Because really, zombies should be ruining every building they can. They really shouldn't be at a disadvantage for doing exactly what they were meant to do.

Discussion (No Freerunning from Ruins)

Dupe.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 00:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of if it’s a dupe, I'm definitely not a fan. The whole 6:1 AP argument doesn't take into account the fact that only survivors with Toolboxes and Construction can fix ruins, or the fact that the net AP loss for survivors is generally much larger than six since they're sacrificing AP every time they try to move through that block. And while it does generally help feral survivors, I think that's a good thing, since it balances out the act of destruction that would otherwise entirely disrupt things for them. Plus, pinatas REALLY put a damper on a person's day already. —Aichon— 00:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Also against this idea. You are essentially penalizing survivors who do not metagame, and that's a big no-no. Those who metagame should not have such a significant advantage over those who do not.--Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 05:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I definetly like this idea. I mean, how many players past level 3 or 4 don't have construction? And toolboxes are a dime a dozen nowadays. -- User:Leoofvgcats 08:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

To answer your question, a startlingly large number of trenchies. —Aichon— 07:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I also know a large number of people who do not carry a toolbox because of the weight. They can carry more needles/FAKs and prefer it that way. Generally these are people in well-organized groups, but still. Not everyone has a toolbox.--Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 07:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention it depends on how a character chooses to play. An 8th level zombie primary probably wouldn't have it. Or somebody going for science or military skills. So anyone that doesn't take Construction right away is a trenchie?--Pesatyel 19:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Not sure if you're partially responding to me, but "if A then B" does not imply "if B then A". I was giving an example of trenchies as a case where people tend to not carry toolboxes, but that doesn't mean that people who don't carry toolboxes are automatically trenchies. —Aichon— 20:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

It was more of a comment on people telling others "how to play", no offense intended. It comes up in suggestions and/or in discussions once in awhile.--Pesatyel 22:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is necessary. I've been playing a death cultist again recently... consequently I don't give a damn if I do get caught outside and eaten, and I spend a lot of time in zombie-infested areas. Even so, once about 1/3 of the buildings in a suburb get ruined, getting around is a giant pain in the ass for me, I'm sure it's worse for people that don't like group hagz and gh!zzaz. Besides, I think ruins functioning as entry points to the free running network is a good thing. It provides more opportunities for people who don't metagame much, and serves as a useful counter to idiots trying to turn an entire suburb into EHB Barricade Fortresses of DOOM. Especially when a whole burb is in defense mode and every building is either ruined or EHB, it'd be pretty lame for there to be no practical way for breathers, death cultists and PKs to get back inside once they're ejected. --Mold 08:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

That was my reasoning, actually. To stop the EHBing of EVERYTHING. I've been trying to play a character without freerunning, and it's about next to impossible to get into a TRP unless it's wide open. If you have no way to get back into buildings, you're going to have to open up more entry points for revived survivors to get back in. RinKou 16:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Seems like it would lead to a cascading failure. With this suggestion, if the zombies ruin one building, survivors are forced to knock others down to VSB to compensate. That makes the buildings easier for zombies to take and ruin, which leads to more needing to be VSB, and so on. A single generic ruin shouldn't have that much impact on a suburb. Alternatively, they don't knock buildings down to VSB, and everyone gets trapped outside. I might be okay with it if it only happened to ruins that were older than, say, 50 days, but not for every ruin. —Aichon— 17:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good change. Survivors do not need to be anymore nerfed than they already have been. At most, let there only be a CHANCE that Free Running doesn't work, ie, 40% chance that a survivor cannot Free Run out of a ruin. --Chase1993 11:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

"Survivors do not need to be anymore nerfed than they already have been." Did I miss a major survivor nerfing update? Because I don't really see how survivors have been nerfed any lately. RinKou 16:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

They haven't; he's an idiot. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 21:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

What scares me a little is that the quote is often used when talking derogatorily about trenchies. --Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}21:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Which one? I'm a little slow this morning, mind filling me in? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 13:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

First, this isn't a Ruin tweak. It is a Free Running tweak. Secondly, I don't see how survivors can repair ruins 6 times faster than zombies can make them. Assuming an empty building, the survivor would have to repair it the SAME DAY it is ransacked to get that. If that were to happen, we wouldn't be hearing stories (and it wouldn't come up as suggestions a lot) of 100+ AP repairs. The only thing I can say is I could see upping the cost of Free Running out of a ruined building to, say, 2 or 3. But making it impossible? That's a bit much.--Pesatyel 19:12, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

As presented this is just waay too much. A 1% per day of ruin chance of failing to freerun on the other hand seems a lot more fair? --Honestmistake 14:36, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I rather like the idea of making it a 1% chance per day that the building has been ruined. It provides an incentive for repairing those buildings. —Aichon— 20:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah this a dupe, but I like it, so they better find the right link. It's patently broken when zombies spend time, effort and AP breaking into a building, killing everyone and then ruining for the survivors to be able to cade everything up to SHB (Stupidly Highly Barricaded) because they've got a free entrance to the free running network provided by zombies doing what they should. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 01:47, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Broken it may be, but do you really expect it'll change much? I think if this is implemented, you'll still wind up with everything either SHB or Ruined, you'll just have a lot more dead people because of it. Sure that's how it should be, but you've got to be at least a little willing to forgive abject idiocy if you don't want one of the sides to effectively disappear. --Mold 04:33, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I never forced the survivors to cade above VSB. That's their problem if they don't make enough entry points for themselves, precisely the same as if they sleep in resource buildings and die when they're attacked, not my problem, I didn't make them sleep there. The culture of barricade to infinity is meta-principle, like the Rogues Gallery, and therefore completely separate to game mechanics and balance. Initially I think there will be more deaths due to people being locked out, soon enough there'll be a lot more entry points and common sense will prevail. It doesn't change the fact that this is the only occurrence of an encouraged in-game and in-character act giving a massive benefit to your opposition. It needs fixing. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 04:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

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Feeding Groan Tweak

Timestamp: RosslessnessWant a Location Image? 21:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Type: Feeding Groan Tweak

Scope: Zombies with Feeding Groan

Description: Right. The distance in squares that a feeding groan can be heard is based on the number of survivors present at a 1 to 1 ratio. What I propose is that zombies are also counted within this figure at a rate of 0.5 to 1. So for example if you enter a building that contains 2 survivors and 2 other zombies your groans can be heard 3 squares away (1+1+0.5+0.5) all halves would be rounded down and you wouldn't count yourself. Flavour justification? The more zombies present the larger the chance of a freshly served brain, and the louder the groan of hunger. Obviously one surivor must be present. Normal maximum distances apply.

Discussion (Feeding Groan Tweak)

I see this as being useful. One addition I would like, however, would be flavor text to indicate if you're hearing the groan because of this change. For instance, with your example, if you were within two blocks, you'd get the standard groan text ("You heard a loud and low groaning..."), but if you were three blocks away, the text would change to indicate that you can hear the noise because of the additional zombies (e.g. "You heard a group of loud and low groanings..."). —Aichon— 22:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

So a zombie logs in to see a major groan going off seven blocks away several minutes before, but arrives only to find 18 zombies who have since eaten the only harmanbargar. It's kind of unfair to ferals/newbies, the people who need groans most. This suggestion would turn groans from a tool to help small crowds of zombies maximize break-ins into an ap-wasting spam button that has no real information content. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If i'm a new zombie and it directs me to a horde of 18 zombies, surely thats a good thing? lots of local zeds who are opening buildings, half killing humans and the like. I can see how that might be frustrating in the short term, but in the long term you've just found a horde. But anway, how about as suggested elsewhere If there are a certain conditions (Say more zombies than survivors) where the groan sounds different? LIke the muffled message at the moment. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:59, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Still not clear and it still takes all the information content out of a groan. Another thing: A horde is almost completely useless to a new zombie if they're in front of an empty building; all Hordes do is open places up and give meatshields, neither of which justifies turning Feeding Groan from a food finding tool into a Zombie finding tool. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 02:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

If a horde did spend all there time outside an empty building then yes. But they don't. They attack neighbouring buildings, drag people out on to the street, open doors, and let you sleep in the Dark. And strangely enough, If you a a zombie inside a building and have a few ap's and a survivior is in front of you on 7hp what would you do? Kill him? Or groan? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 09:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea, but I agree that it needs to have something built in to distinguish whether the groan is carrying further because of more survivors or more zombies (or both). It would help with distinguishing whether there's more food/resistance around than the groaner can handle, or there's a feeding frenzy going on that will probably be over quickly. Important difference for youngsters that need XP, especially those that don't have Lurching Gait yet and can't afford to be shambling after empty promises. --Mold 07:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Lelouch said what I had in mind.--Pesatyel 18:53, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

This'll hurt the newbies. I like the newbies. Therefore I don't like this idea. You'll get survivors that real time revive doing it at well populated RPs, newbie zombies that are still spending 2AP to move will generally follow the most recent groan. 1 reviver and 12 zombies will sound exactly like a feast for a poor newbie who'll then spend loads of AP to walk to... a revive point... where they'll be stuck in the neck forcing them to spend even more AP getting back to death. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 01:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

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Making AP's More Abundant

Timestamp: Chase1993 18:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Type: Entire Game

Scope: Entire Game

Description: Okay, I may seem stupid, and this has probably been asked many times before, but WHY do we have so few AP's and WHY do they take so long to recharge? This makes the game EXTREMELY annoying to people who are not entirely dedicated to the game. When I recommended the game to my friends, they all replied in various ways this basic statement: "What the hell is this? It's not even a game; all you can do is spend 5 minutes max everyday on it." I myself enjoy the game, but it actually keeps me awake at night wondering WHY the game is like this. I propose that these changes be made: 1. Player's maximum AP points increased to 100 2. AP points recharge at the rate of 1 every 5 minutes 3. After a player logs out, there character would stay online for 30 minutes before disapperaing I understand that this would change some of the fundamental aspects of the game, but I think it would make the game much funner for all, and would CERTAINLY make it easier for casual gamers to play, get something accomplished, and enjoy the game. I would like people to comment on my ideas, and ways they could be tweaked, as I realize that other things may need to be changed as well for these changes to be feasible.

Discussion (Making AP's More Abundant)

No. This makes individual players way too powerful, and you seem to miss the point that UD is meant to be a five-minutes-a-day kind of game. There are plenty of other ways to use up your free time between UD sessions, metagaming/joining a group being one of them. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 18:23, 26 October 2009 (BST)

Well, I'm not entirely opposed to increasing the max AP. But recharging at 1AP per 5 minutes is way too fast, 288AP per day is just overkill. As for everyone disappearing after 30 minutes, how the hell are zombies going to get food and XP when they break into buildings and there is no one there to attack? - User:Whitehouse 18:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Too many questions. Even the worst suicide repairs ever recorded (160 ap plus I think is the highest ever done) could be completed in a day. And zombies could ruin everything if players idled out so quickly. Also would probably cripple the server. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 18:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Folks in my group have done 220+AP repairs, I believe, and there are others who have done larger ones.

Anyway, getting back to the bigger issue, these changes would not make the game more casual friendly; they would actually do the opposite. Also, the entire game is balanced around a slow recharge rate and a limited max AP, otherwise people can do too much before others log back in again. There's a similar zombie game that recharges AP every 7.5 minutes. That game seems to be unbalanced though, in that people can go on killing sprees while others are recharging, and your suggestion is way beyond what that other game has. It would ruin the tempo and nature of the game and upset all of the balances done over the years, since AP is everything. So, no. Just no. —Aichon— 19:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: TO ALL OF THE ABOVE Of course, the 30 minute after logout could be changed. Perhaps 2 hours would be better. As to letting people accomplish way to much while other people are logged out, that's the idea. If people could accomplish alot, more people would be encouraged to play. It would obviously change the whole style of the game, and I didn't expect my suggestion to be universally well recieved, but come on, don;t you ever wish you could spend hours playing at a time? In my opinion, Urban Dead is the best game out there, and i've played WOW. I just wish I could play Urban Dead more often than I can now. -- Chase1993

Hours spent playing UD being fun? Sure. Would that be fair to other players? Definitely not. There's your crux. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 19:41, 26 October 2009 (BST)

How do people talk to each other in-game if they disappear quickly after logout? Or heal each other, for that matter? How does one justify a zombie being able to singlehandedly take a building from EHB to ruin in a day, even with a survivor or two inside? Or, on the flipside, justify singlehandedly barricade strafing half of a suburb to VSB in a day? These changes would create lots of empty buildings and even more boredom since people wouldn't be able to find each other.

If you'd like to play UD for longer periods of time, there are already ways to go about doing that. Multiple characters, planning out in detail how to spend AP, meta-gaming with others, and participating on the wiki are just a few I've found. I can spend several hours a day on UD-related things if I so choose, but I like that I only need to spend 5 minutes a day. This game is not supposed to play like WoW. —Aichon— 20:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

If people could accomplish a lot more than they can now, people would be driven out of the game. As it is, it's possible to survive the night in one place. With your suggestion, it would be difficult for even that to be achieved. --Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}19:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: To post directly above: In what way would it be impossible to survive the night in one place? If you dissapear 30 minutes - 2 hours after logging out, you can't be killed. I KNOW what I'm saying would drastically change the game. RE: To BobBoberton's Post: How would it not be fair to other players? If everyone played more often, then it would be fair to everyone. Also, there would be much more live action. Players would mainly be combating other active players (of which there would be many more if these changes took place), instead of always just attacking logged-out characters. As is, there is almost NO live action. The main purpose of my suggestion is to change this. -- Chase1993

Real-time combat isn't fair either. Faster internet connection? You win. Zombie with Infectious Bite? Either your opponent flees or uses lots of resources. Human? Run away with free running! And it doesn't make it fair if a player can kill half a dozen others every day - now, you're lucky to kill one player a day on average (taking stocking and cade-smashing into the equation). I could easily foresee a zombie victory (since a human one is nigh-impossible) where players just log in every, what, nine hours or so and kill five times as many other players a day. Zombies get stronger with more volume - as in how every well-coordinated large horde is always successful in a mall/NT siege. --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 20:13, 26 October 2009 (BST)

(dang edit conflicts) There would be less active players at any given time because of the fast disappearance and less live action with your changes (though live action would make up a larger percentage of encounters). Having played a game that works similarly to what you're describing, I can speak from experience. You don't see enemies for a few days, then suddenly wake up to find out that someone killed you in the night (as well as all of the other friendlies nearby). It's a giant game of hide-and-seek, with no sieges or close calls or real strategy, which is what UD would become with these changes. And see my earlier issues about FAKing and talking. —Aichon— 20:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: Firsty, Aichon, again, you would NOT wkae up and find yourself dead because as I have said many times before, your character will disapper 2 hours after logging out. Secondly, you WOULD see enemies, because more people would log on and play. To BobBoberton: FASTER INTERNET CONNECTION??!!! I've played Urban Dead on 33.3Kbs, which is THE slowest connection availabe, and it worked just as fast as it does on my current connection. Again, focus on what you said: " you're lucky to kill one player a day on average". THAT'S what I want to change. What you need to understand is that of course, it would DRASTICALLY change the game (and to be frank, I don't think it's a change that will happen, because of server issues). As to it being a good change if it were possible, obviously my idea would have to be majorly tweaked, however, I cannot amagine anyone NOT being happy with the core element of my idea: being able to play for longer periods of time. -- Chase1993

I was speaking from experience with another game that's similar to your idea, and yes, you do wake up dead often. And no, you would not see more people, because 2 hours is not appropriately scaled to the AP recharge rate (do the math for it...a 12-24 hour timeout would be more appropriate, but still problematic). Also, no, that is not the slowest connection. And finally, if you can't imagine anyone not being happy, then you're clearly not listening to what anyone is saying. —Aichon— 20:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

(yay edit conflicts) Not wake up dead? With players getting max AP every eight hours or so (1 per 5 minutes), there's a very good chance that yes, you will wake up dead. I don't know about you, but on occasion UD is quite slow for me. It might be because the server's in the UK and I live in the US; it might be because of heavy server load at the time. Either way, sometimes UD is sluggish - and when that happens, it can be fatal with regards to real-time combat. And as stated before, killing more than one other player a day makes players too powerful, and the game severely unbalanced. UD's not broken, why "fix" it in this manner? --Bob Boberton ^{TF / DW} 20:47, 26 October 2009 (BST)

How long have you been playing? I'm guessing sub-3 months. Otherwise you'd know that entire suburbs would go down in minutes if unlimited play was allowed, MOB would take entire suburbs in a strike, Mall Tours would be over in an hour and if a group like The Dead came from another community it would be the end of Malton. Your idea would kill the game for people who wanted to play casually, a hardcore strata of players would emerge on the zombie side and literally win the game through attrition. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 20:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I am unhappy. With characters disappearing every two hours, how could humans ever win a siege? More importantly, this does nothing to get survivors back on their feet more quickly. The sticking point will still be revives. OR would you be happy having to log in every two hours to stop your character at a revive point disappearing. Finally, this punishes all those players who aren't online 24/7. Urban deads simplicity is that it can be played in 5 minutes. And this is a zergers dream. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: To Iscariot, no I am not a long term player -- I have been playing the game for about 3-4 months now. However, I do LOVE the game. Is there no conceivable way that the game could be improved to let people play for long periods at a time? Secondly, in what way does it punish players that aren't online 24/7? They wouldn't get as much XP as others? Of course they wouldn't! In ANY MMORPG, the players that DO play are the ones that get to advance the levels, etc. It is SUPPOSED to be rewarding to the players that play often. That's what MMORPG's are TRYING to do. But at the same time, the dissapear 2 hours after logout would make sure that casual players can stay in the game without being killed. Of course they wouldn't advance as fast; that's the point. Also, of course it would make the game faster paced. It would change the gameplay. I don;t expect hardcore UD players to be entirely happy with it. But it WOULD make for faster gameplay, and more importantly, it would allow people to truely immerse themselves in Urban Dead. TO ALL ABOVE POSTS: Maybe I'm missing something, but why is it that everyone is saying it would nerf humans and make zombies too powerful? I simply don't understand the logic. -- Chase1993

Learn to sign your posts, and fast if you're going to engage in walls of text debates. Four months? Four whole months? There are players on this page who have played for four years, and they're going to give you the same opinion everyone else has given you. This is a bad idea and will hurt people. Given you weren't here, The Dead were an organised group of 1200 people from an external forum from all timezones of the planet. They could easily have people active 24 hours a day and given that the refresh time from the server isn't huge on UD, with limitless AP they could monitor the interior and exterior of every building in the city permanently. It doesn't matter that you'd idle in two hours, you'd be found long before then, a post made on their communication networks and you'd be dead five minutes after, as simple as. That's before we even get onto Extinction, spying add-ons and auto-scripts. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 21:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Because if people dissapeared after 2 hours, zombies could ruin buildings without having to kill the humans inside the buildings. If this happened, the zombies could ruin all the NTs in a suburb in a day or two. The surivors would then be unable to revive anyone.--Rahrah^{Come join the #party!}21:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Because the zombies are better organised. Its no secret that of the top 5 groups in urban dead, usually 4 are zombies. Also your point is that if people idle out more quickly, they won't be killed as much. What's that about? Its a zombie apocalypse. Dying is part of the process. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 21:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep. Zombies can't ruin buildings until after all survivors are out of it, and your suggestion would make it so that there would be less survivors in buildings since they'd be disappearing constantly. Sieges, which happen all over the city, all the time, at very small scales, only work because humans can act as meatshields once the zombies break in (which they already do on a routine basis). If the meatshields are gone, the buildings will fall while people have disappeared. They'll come back to ruined buildings and a lack of revives if they were unfortunate enough to be one of the few that hadn't disappeared when it was attacked.

As someone who has been playing the game for even less time than you, I'd suggest checking up on some of the historical stuff that happened in 2007 and 2008 with Extinction and the Salt the Land ideas. Now imagine if the zombies had no limits. The game would end, which is no fun for anyone. —Aichon— 21:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

*Cough* Eve Online *cough* Why don't you create more characters? This is supposed to be more of a quick, time killer game anyways. Well, the game that is, not the wiki or forums... --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 21:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: Again, I still do not understand WHY zombies would win. If zombie groups are more organized it just means that human players will need to get BETTER organized, which would actually add elements of gameplay. Again, obviously elements of gameplay would need to be changed, and I don't have all the answers. I accept that in a gameplay debate, I cannot stand up to many of you who have played the game for years. However, I have played for several months, and I cannot understand HOW it could possibly be SUCH a big issue in gameplay. I mean, there MUST be a way to increase gameplaying time. -- Chase1993

Organization won't matter if all it takes is 1-2 zombies online at the same time to break open any building in the game, kill all of the survivors, and ruin it, all in less than 5 minutes. There's no way survivors could react in time. If those 1-2 zombies are all it takes to ruin any building, you wouldn't even need organization of the zombies...ferals alone could hold every TRP in the game, or else re-ruin them on a daily basis for relatively cheap. Especially so when compared to the cost of reviving the dead, finding gennies, finding fuel, clearing the zeds, repairing the building, and re-barricading it. —Aichon— 23:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: Also, one thing people seem to be forgeting is that there will still be humans in the game. Everybody's saying things like "Zombies will run wild" and "Zombies will destroy everything" and "Zombie groups will takeover". Um... there WILL still be human players in the game. As there are MORE human players than zombies, I don't see how it could work in the zombies favour. Humans could do exactly the same as the zombies could. -- Chase1993

Not sure why people are saying that either. Possibly because zombies are an attacking force and survivors have to react to attack, thus zombies have an easier time of coordination than survivors (this is thinking on an out of game level, just so people don't tear my apart for misrepresenting who has best in game communication options), because survivors have to wait for the attack to occur, then plan and assemble a reaction force. But even then, once an attack has taken place, it would not be hard for solo survivors to quickly repair and re-barricade a substantial portion of what has been destroyed. As zombies could not hold every building due to insufficient amounts of coordinated zombies, many buildings would remain empty, just waiting for a barricade straffer to come along. A barricade straffer could easily manage 20 buildings at VSB level. Costing him 200AP, and costing the zombies 800AP to undo his work. Anyhow, the changes you have suggested are way too drastic for most peoples liking. It's just too much of a change to something that works rather well right now. - User:Whitehouse 23:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

If a human finds a zombie and kills it, the zombie stands up for a worst case loss to zombie AP of 15AP, or a typical cost of 6AP, since most zombies get Ankle Grab early on and most survivors have Headshot. If a zombie finds a human and kills him, the human, in the best case, costs his side 13AP (two ?rise, one revive, and one search). And that's assuming that the reviver found the syringe on his very first search and that the revivee has Ankle Grab. The more likely outcome is that he doesn't have Ankle Grab and that the reviver had to spend 8AP on average to find a syringe, yielding a loss of 38AP to the survivor side, and that's still ignoring any AP the revivee gains while capped as a zombie or AP spent traveling to revive points, NT facilities, or elsewhere. Reviving is a major drain on gross survivor AP.

The reason why this matters is because this is not a game of zombies against humans, but, rather, zombies against barricades. Barricades are life to humans, and rendering them useless by giving everyone so much AP means that it becomes a straight-up war of attrition between the two sides. And in a war of attrition, humans simply cannot keep up because of the AP costs involved with reviving and the scarcity of the syringes involved during emergencies. Plus, the AP cost would actually go up even higher in my earlier equations if a lit NT facility wasn't handy, such as when they're ruined. If nothing else, the zombies would simply win the AP war, resulting in new zombies being created faster than they could be revived all across the city. —Aichon— 23:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Not if the zombies broke into buildings where there was nobody to kill (likely to occur if players disappear after 30 minutes). The fact is if the changes were implemented, the zombies wouldn't be able to kill enough survivors for it to destroy the survivor population. If the zombie players could be on 24/7, I might agree, but as they can't, I don't really think this would aid either side hugely, just make the loses and gains increase in size, and frustrate newbies who can not find targets to help increase their XP quickly, be it by killing, healing or reviving. - User:Whitehouse 23:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

They don't have to break into every building. They just need to crack open the NTs and keep them ruined most of the time. After that, they've won. Just picking off a few survivors here and there would bleed the survivors' needle supply dry, which is a win condition for the zombies. And since there hasn't been talk of increasing encumbrance limits to match the greater AP, survivors simply couldn't pack enough needles to keep up with the increase in deaths. And we still haven't had an answer on how survivors would revive/FAK/talk to people that have disappeared. —Aichon— 23:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Because survivors would be safe while inactive, the focus of the game would shift. Zombies would become the defensive force, keeping survivors out of buildings where they can get resources. Survivors would become the strike forces, coordinating attack times, stocking up on supplies and scattering to safe "idle" locations. Due to zombies also idling out, these strike teams would have no problem repairing the buildings and getting what they needed from them. Zombies would need to be logging in every hour to keep a significant presence in buildings they want to keep from survivors, while survivors no longer need to worry about the zombies eating them once "idled". As you just added on before I could finish this: Interaction would suffer from this, no talking, hardly and healing, reviving having to be coordinated. All in all it's a bad game change. I'm just not convinced that either side would "win" because of it. - User:Whitehouse 00:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Babah zambahz don't get anything to eat, newbie breathers don't get anything semi-damaged to fix with their minimal skills, tactical resource points get ruined (original poster: that means they can't be re-barricaded until they're repaired, and they can't be repaired until all the zombies are gone) quickly and easily, and people are encouraged and rewarded (practically required) for spending many hours of their life per day on this. This is just a bad idea all around, and no amount of tinkering will make it good. Chase1993, don't even worry about Urban Dead right now. I want you to read this, think about what it means, and then take a serious look at your life and how you're living it.--Mold 03:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POSTS: Aichon, and most everyone else: I STILL cannot understand HOW there would be no barricades left. Human players can (almost) just as easily repair the barricades as zombies can attack them. Now, did you know that there are 2 times more active humans than active zombies? The humans would be barricading MUCH faster. Again, to Aichon: About the syringe thing, etc, I've said many times that I know many things would have to be revamped for my idea to work. If my idea were implemented, DRASTIC changes to the rest of the game would have to occur. Seeing a way my idea does not fit in with such and such aspect of the game is not good enough reason to shoot it down, as I'm not suggesting it be implemented EXACTLY as I have put it down. I simply would love to see some changes that would make the game more friendly to players who want to play all more often. To Mold: Qoute, "and people are encouraged and rewarded (practically required) for spending many hours of their life per day on this. This is just a bad idea all around". Um... what about my posts (and life in general) have you been missing?! It's SUPPOSED to encourage and reward those people! The point of ANY MMORPG IS to reward those people. That's how it goes with ANYTHING in life. I practice parkour; do you think that I got out of bed one day and just decided to do parkour? EMPHATICALLY NO! I spent YEARS of my life training EVERY day. Life is designed to reward those who work hard at something. That's the WHOLE point of my game changes. Unlike it is now, the hardcores SHOULD be able to gain XP faster than the casual gamers. I mean, haven't you played ANY other MMORPG, or any other game (or practice any real-life skill)??!! If you had, you would know that working hard and consistently at it is par for the course. (Also, that link really wansn't as clever as you think it is) -- Chase1993

Who said anything about being clever? I'm not here to show off, and I don't need to entertain you. You need help kid, seriously, and if you can't see why, I hope somebody nearby has the sense to stage an intervention for you.

Regarding your inability to see how there would be no barricades left, it's pretty simple: this suggestion makes ruining buildings and keeping them ruined much easier, and ruined buildings cannot be barricaded until they're repaired.

To get back closer to the main point of contention, no, MMOs are not necessarily about sitting on your ass all day grinding for XP and gold, greens or whatever the game uses to show how much time you've wasted. Many of them present themselves that way, and apparently that's a thing about MMO games that you like. That doesn't mean MMO games that don't do things that way -- and in fact go out of their way to discourage players trying to do it that way -- need to be dragged into conformity with all the treadmills that make you fatter. Urban Dead isn't that kind of game, the creator of the game has clearly intended for it not to be that kind of game, and taken steps to ensure it doesn't become that kind of game. Even if you were gaining any support for the idea here (which you clearly aren't), it's not going to fly because it goes so hard against what Urban Dead is. You're barking up the wrong tree trying to drum up support for turning UD into WoW with zombies.--Mold 07:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: ABOVE POST: Firstly, my friend, I'm not trying to make this into a war of insults against each other, but I MUST question your logic. In WHAT way do I need help? From my point of view, it is YOU who have been GREATLY deprived of an important aspect of life: working hard to achieve something. If people want to spend their time playing MMORPG's, so be it. However, you clearly do not understand my situation. Why you do not understand I CANNOT think. I have cleary stated that I practice parkour. Perhaps you don't know what prakour is? Look it up. I can assure you, however, that parkour requires a GREAT amount of time OFF of your ass. Therefore, my life seems pretty balanced, as I have time to get outside with my club and partake of exercise, and also have time to play games. It's YOU that should be seeking help, and maybe should START putting your mind to a goal in life. Insults over, I understand that many hardcore UD players would not like the fact that it requires people to play more often, as playing for small periods is something that makes UD what it is. I still think that if there were a way to let players who want to play for longer periods of time do so, it would please more gamers out there, which is the general idea. -- Chase1993

I know what parkour is, and I know that a lot more people claim to practice it than actually do. Something to do with its trendiness in sandbox video games, no doubt. Whether or not you actually practice it is no concern of mine. The issue we're having here is this: Your suggestion is dead on arrival, and people before me have quite clearly pointed out why it's no good, and you don't care. This implies that the problem isn't actually with the suggestion, but rather, with you. I don't really care why you want to turn Urban Dead into World of Warcraft with zombies, I'm telling you it's not going to happen, full stop. Your inability to hear or understand what people are saying to you, and your celebration of the worst (at times lethally bad) aspect of MMOs as integral and good and able to teach valuable lessons about life, implies you have dangerous psychological problems and may wind up hurting or killing yourself with them over time. I mean, if you want to go hurt yourself, that's none of my business, but I wish the windup toward your breakdown and suicide attempt could happen somewhere other than Developing Suggestions.--Mold 08:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Seeing a way my idea does not fit in with such and such aspect of the game is not good enough reason to shoot it down

Yes, it is. You're providing us with an idea here on Developing Suggestions. It's your task to develop the suggestion into something that the players can agree is a good idea. If your idea would break the game, it's our duty to shoot it down and tell you where it's broken. We've told you repeatedly where it's broken, but have yet to see any development. I believe most of us agree that your idea is fundamentally broken and will not work, regardless of the tweaks involved. I'm sorry that you we can't understand each other, but it's not any of our responsibility to make you understand our reasoning, but it is your responsibility to bring us around to an understanding of and agreement with yours. This will be my last response unless I see significant changes to the suggestion, since there's no point in continuing a discussion that can only serve to frustrate both of us.

Regarding humans and zombies, there are not twice as many humans. Check the stats. And you're arguing that net barricade levels would be on the increase, but net barricade levels don't matter when the zombies just need to hold a few positions to win, which would be trivial if they could break down the barricades at will. You've been playing this game long enough that you must realize that humans are incapable of winning the game (literally and technically) and, faced with large enough hordes, have no recourse but to flee.

Due to Beachhead Tactics and the like, only a small number of zombies are necessary in order to render buildings ruined, and as we saw before with Extinction, ruining buildings is already very doable and is extremely dangerous. Even though humans could repair the buildings, as you point out, they'd have to expose themselves to do so, which comes at great cost to them if they're found and killed. On the other hand, zombies risk practically nothing to undo the barricades. There's also the fact that a lone zombie now has enough AP to take down a VSB by himself and maybe get a few hits in on survivors. A handful working in unison can expect to get in and do serious damage. The way that survivors can survive in this game is by having those barricades stay up 24/7. Once the barricades fall, survivors start dying, and dying is extremely costly. Your suggestion would make the barricades fall all the time, which means lots of survivor deaths. Or maybe they disappeared, in which case they just gave away the building to the zombies.

Also, you seem to have missed the point of the game. It is not to reward the hardcore players, and not all MMOs are the way you described. Life may reward those that work hard, but games don't have to reflect life since they are meant to be fun. This game, like many others, chooses not to make a point of rewarding an individual's hard work, and instead tries to be fun for the demographic that it's aimed at: people who only want to spend five minutes a day playing the game. I played WoW for years (back when it wasn't nerfed all to hell), I raided at the high end, I was there for guild and server firsts, and if you think that this game is supposed to play out like WoW, you've most certainly missed the point.

Anyway, I'm done for now with the arguing, but I would like to reiterate a few things that have already been said. First, if your suggestion needs "drastic" (using your words here) changes to work, make them instead of beating around the bush. Don't keep arguing it as it is, since it just wastes everyone's time. Second, if this many people are coming out against your idea, whether or not you can see a problem, you need to admit that the players think there is a problem and that your suggestion will never be accepted as it is, since suggestions get voted on by the very people that you are arguing against right now. Third, use a signature. Iscariot mentioned this to you already, and I posted on your talk page even before he mentioned it to you, but it's common etiquette to use one. If you need help, I'll be glad to help you with it. —Aichon— 08:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: MOLD'S POST: "I know what parkour is, and I know that a lot more people claim to practice it than actually do." Firstly, friend, you have to take what I say for granted. If everytime someone made a claim "I've played UD for 4 years" I said "HAHA, you're just lying", we'd never get anywhere. I DO practice parkour, by myself AND with a club, and you're just going to have to take that for granted. "Something to do with its trendiness in sandbox video games, no doubt." Seriously, my friend, stop trying to insert clever lines everywhere; it comes out, for want of a better word, extremely dorky. "Whether or not you actually practice it is no concern of mine." Not in the general sense, but for this debate, it IS a concern of yours. You have said that I should get off my ass and stop wasting time. As I have proved that I DO get off my ass, it is a concern of yours, as you were the one who first stated that I was inactive. "The issue we're having here is this: Your suggestion is dead on arrival, and people before me have quite clearly pointed out why it's no good, and you don't care." Of course I care. I was the one who said at the very top of the page, if you'd care to look, that I wanted feedback as to how it would not work. Maybe you are not familiarized with the construction of debates. I'll fill you in. The point of a debate is that we're arguing something. If everybody agreed to my suggestion, there WOULDN'T be any debate, now would there? "This implies that the problem isn't actually with the suggestion, but rather, with you". Um... let me get this straight. You're saying that because I argue my point, there must be something seriously wrong with me. Simply put, I don't understand the logic of that statement. "I don't really care why you want to turn Urban Dead into World of Warcraft with zombies, I'm telling you it's not going to happen, full stop". To be honest, as I have said before, I didn't think it would ever really happen, because of server issues. However, to be quite frank, and I know that most hardcore UD's will hate me for this; yes, I would like to make UD more WOW style. And in all fairness, if it were more WOW style, it would attract far more players. "Your inability to hear or understand what people are saying to you, and your celebration of the worst (at times lethally bad) aspect of MMOs as integral and good and able to teach valuable lessons about life, implies you have dangerous psychological problems and may wind up hurting or killing yourself with them over time. I mean, if you want to go hurt yourself, that's none of my business, but I wish the windup toward your breakdown and suicide attempt could happen somewhere other than Developing Suggestions". Firstly, as I have stated above, I do understand what people are saying. I'm simply debating the point. Secondly, are you saying that all MMORPG's that require gameplay time of more than 10 minutes daily should be shut down? If so, you are the bane of pretty much EVERY gamer out there. If you would not like to partake of such "time-wasting activities", perhaps you should refrain from them, and live a quiet life with the Amish somewhere. And finally, please stop with the dramatism. "Winding up killing myself". Get real. I could start throwing any number of unfounded accusations at you: "If you don't start playing WOW, there is a serious chance you will kill all your family". Stick to reality. Playing MMORPG's will NOT make me kill myself. It's just a stupid thing to say. -- Chase1993

Okay, this is getting very boring, and seems increasingly pointless. A few last things and I'm done.

You haven't proved anything, you've claimed things but a claim that I can't disprove isn't proof of your claim. Proof looks more like this: "I started playing Mold roughly four years ago, feel free to check the character profile to verify this." And that's not even airtight logical proof of the claim, that's just pretty strong evidence that the player database thinks that somebody started playing a character with that name on that date. Though I have made a slight change to his profile just to firm things up a little.

Debating involves more than just stating your opinion over and over again while other people say other things.

There's more to arguing than saying something that a lot of people disagree with. I suggest you start with the wikipedia article on argument and go from there. Many here at the wiki don't actually argue, lord knows I often don't, but if you're going to claim to be using things like "argument"s and "logic" it might help if you were doing so.

Maybe you ought to spend more time familiarizing yourself with the game and its community before you start suggesting drastic -- or even small -- changes to it. Give it a year or so. Run around independent. Join a breather group. Join a zombie group. Get a feel for how the game looks and plays from different angles. Know what you're talking about.--Mold 09:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

RE: TO AICHON'S POST: I understand completely what you are saying. If everyone is against me, why do I keep debating? Because my idea from the first was not to implement changes EXACTLY how I put them down. I simply want to find a way that players can play for long periods of time. I DON'T have all the answers. I want everyone to work together and try and find a way that my idea could be implemented. As it happens, I am VERY surprised to find that most people do NOT want to play for long periods of time. That's peoples prerogative. I STILL however, cannot understand why, if there were a way to implement it, people would not like it. Seriously, I don't understand how someone would not like to be able to play a game they love for a longer period of time than 10 minutes daily. But I hope you see where I'm coming from. My proposal was the only way I could think of to reinforce my idea; that of longer playing periods. I understand that this forum is unanimously against me, but all I was trying to do was find a way to make the game funner. I salute you, Aichon, for debating with me thus far, but all I would like is simply for people to try and find a way to play for longer periods. -- Chase1993

RE: MOLD'S POST: Firstly, I understand where you're coming from. I have never posted on this wiki before, and I do not know very well how this community operates. I HAVE played the game for the past 3-4 months, but perhaps I still do not quite understand the mentality of most of it's players. That's part of the reason I wrote this suggestion in the first place, as it says at the top. Finally, as I have stated several times before, the purpose of this suggestion is to throw around ideas that would increase playing time. Several players, BobBoberton, Whitehouse, Aichon, and others, have offered constructive criticism. You have offered nothing but insults and unfounded accusations. Perhaps my suggestion isn't airtight. That's why I posted it in the developing suggestions page; to get an idea if how it would be received. Obviously, it has been very poorly recieved; that still gives me a right to state my opinions as opposed to other people's. Anyway, all that to say, the purpose of this page is, as far as I am aware, to debate, make suggestions better,and give constructive criticsm. You have done none of those. I do understand your point. However, continously reiterating that I should shut up and get help is NOT helping the game. If you have nothing constructive to add to my suggestion, say you don't like it and then stop posting. It makes life easier for everyone. -- Chase1993 10:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

[1] Heres a similar game, with almost identical graphics and similar skills, and a massively increased ap rate. Go and play it, the ask yourself "Is this what I want urban dead to be?" Also note the number of registered players, approximately 600. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I believe that this idea sucks ass so very badly. Even worse than my worst suggestions. Cookies and Cream 13:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

EPIC WIN Wait, what? The title's wrong... Come to think of it, what the hell is up with the picture? Uhuh. No way. No fucking way. You're telling me that someone actually made a good suggestion on DS? Get your lying ass out of here before I start putting bullets into it.

This time, it's been earned.

Lelouch vi Britannia 19:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

WOW. I sure am happy I remembered to jump back into DS at the right time. I'm saving this crap in my userspace. So much argument for such a abysmal idea... It's mindblowing! --DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION-- 00:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks like all the logical arguments have been made here. I'll just point out the whole "Urban Dead...fun" quote. Just because I find that hilarious. RinKou 10:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

If your character automatically disappears 30 minutes after you log out, then Malton would be a ghost town. Character would only be available, what, an hour at most? That is unless you forget to log out. I mean imagine walking into a mall that holds 200 people....and only seeing about 10 people. 8 that are actively playing at that time and 2 that forgot to log out after playing. To be fair, it would probably be a higher number, but zombies would be totally screwed by this and the game would be even MORE focused around malls and NTs then it already is as survivors in any other buildings would most likely disappear. I mean how would Ransack work? That would add insult to injury. Zombies bust in and try to ransack but can't because there are disappeared survivors in the building. And that is just but one example.--Pesatyel 19:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry that you seem not to appreciate Urban Dead's unique, more leisurely-paced gameplay. Might I suggest Hell Rising or Quarantine 2019? Both of these were made by former players of Urban Dead; Hell Rising, in particular, gives players substantial quantities of Action Points. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 06:18, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

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Who killed me?

Timestamp: --Haliman - Talk 00:23, 21 October 2009 (BST)

Type: Interface Change (I think?)

Scope: All players

Description: Simple. I think the capitalized letter "i" should be viewed as this instead of a lowercase "L". Why? To stop confusion. EX: RossIessness "rossiessness" attacks and kills another group's member. That member takes a screenshot, and reports it to his group. Now "Rosslessness" and "Rossiessness" are both going to be blacklisted/searched by the group. The current "i" now is a major troll tool.

Discussion Who killed me?

[Haliman] profile A....[Haliman ]Profile B...still very exploitable in my opinion. -- 

•   Timmah!  

•   Talk  

00:56, 21 October 2009 (BST)

So, you want a serif font to be used, but only for capital letter Is in character names? Seems somewhat convoluted to me. Besides, it seems kinda odd to make a change like this in order to support meta-gaming, since that's the only time that it matters. Most of the PK list sites require links to the profile anyway, so you have the character ID, which is already unique. —Aichon— 01:03, 21 October 2009 (BST)

it seems kinda odd to make a change like this in order to support meta-gaming, since that's the only time that it matters. - That's pretty much all that keeps ALOT of the players here playing UD. --Haliman - Talk 01:13, 21 October 2009 (BST)

I don't disagree with that, but, aside from making data available, which is already being done, stuff like this seems to fall outside the scope of the game. Besides, a more consistent way to do it would be to display the character ID of the person that killed you in parenthesis next to their name, but since we already have a link to their profile, such things should be unnecessary. —Aichon— 01:26, 21 October 2009 (BST)

That would take up a lot of space on the game screen.--Haliman - Talk 01:37, 21 October 2009 (BST)

We're arguing details of an unrelated issue, but 9 characters (e.g. "(1598119)"), at most, is not a lot of space. Besides, as I said, such things aren't necessary anyway. —Aichon— 03:07, 21 October 2009 (BST)

Totally unneeded. If I want to confuse the subject or frame you I will. Read the section on Industrial Light and Magical Fraud. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 01:18, 21 October 2009 (BST)

Already saw. But all the names to frame me are taken *cough, KRAUSER cough cough*--Haliman - Talk 01:31, 21 October 2009 (BST)

I don't even need control of the account I'm using to frame you with. I could make an iwit of Bub killing Petro with a katana if I so chose. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 01:37, 21 October 2009 (BST)

After reading that...he scares me. I found it rather amusing though, and a good read. -- 

•   Timmah!  

•   Talk  

17:05, 21 October 2009 (BST)

I've always been annoyed with fonts that don't distinguish between I and l, Illustrated by the Ill coceived font on this page. However I agree with others here that it isn't a gameplay problem. STIll, I'd support you just because I, GIles the lIl, fucking hate fonts that use the same characters for different letters.--_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 02:27, 24 October 2009 (BST)

i c wut u did thur... Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 02:55, 24 October 2009 (BST)

For one thing, it isn't the same character used. Lower case L's have a little curvature at the bottom, which is visible in-game. Capital i's are completely straight, and if you view pictures with characters who use this trick, you will definitely notice the dissimilarity. Also, there are entire groups who depend upon this text for their gimmic. Changing the font suddenly would inconvenience these existing groups, and make them considerably less interesting to see in-game. Additionally, this similarity in character makes it all the more important to click on your attacker's name, and actually look at who they are. --DT^PK 20:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Holy shit it does have the tail thingy.-- SA 23:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

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