Suggestion:20080208 Gunfighter Skill : Dual Pistol Use

	Closed
	This suggestion has finished voting and has been moved to Peer Reviewed.

20080208 Gunfighter Skill : Dual Pistol Use

 Swiers 19:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion type
skill

Suggestion scope
survivors, pistols

Suggestion description
"Gunfighter" would be a new military skill that requires Advanced Pistol Training as a "parent skill". This skill would allow the (admittedly cinematic) effect of using two pistols at once. This is done by having a new attack option for "Dual Pistols". A "Dual Pistols" attack effectively allows two normal pistol attacks with a (total) cost of 1 AP. The first shot would have a 50% chance of hitting. The second shot is only considered if the first hits (otherwise it misses automatically), and in that case has a 30% of hitting. In all cases, this uses two bullets from two different pistols; if the user has only one loaded pistol, they get only the one shot at 50% to hit. If they have no loaded pistols, the attack is resolved as normal for attacks with unloaded guns.

Damage wise, this works out to hitting for 5 damage 35% of the time, 10 damage 15% of the time, and missing (0 damage) 50% of the time. That means an average damage is 3.25 HP per AP (ignoring Flak Jackets), which is the exact same as normal pistol use with Advanced Pistol Training.

So, given that it does the exact same damage and uses twice as much ammunition, why would anybody bother with this? Because there is a significant boost in variance - namely, this attack has the potential to do 10 damage, and thus can be used as a "hail Mary" shot in cases where you'd otherwise never have enough AP to finish the job, and don't much care if you miss completely.

comment: Dual Pistol use in real life is a very bad idea; accuracy is greatly decreased for both weapons, which results in many stray shots. This skills is intended to simulate a common cinematic trick, for a game with zombies in it. The "power level" is pitched at making it ust barely worth using in specific circumstances, or whenver you just think it would be fun to burn lots of ammo and feel lucky.
And yes, this may look like a dupe; I've searched myself and can't find such suggestions, but that may be due to the way they are organized. I know I've seen similar suggestions, but all of them increased the power of pistols, often to rival shotguns. Because it does NOT alter average damage, but instead boosts variance, I think this suggestion is quite different from other twin-pistol suggestions I have seen.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Author's vote.  Swiers 19:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
2. Keep - because of what you wrote. --Funt Solo ^QT 20:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
3. Keep - unless a suitable dupe can be found. --Pdeq^Talk* 20:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
4. Keep - I'm fond of the balance, but number-crunchers may disagree. --Diano 20:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
5. Keep - A bit underpowered, but not enough to warrent a Kill. --BoboTalkClown 20:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
6. Keep - Partly because I like it, partly because reasonable, well thought out gun related suggestions are as rare as rocking horse turds but mostly because you pointed out how silly using two guns at once is outside the movies!--Seventythree^Talk 20:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
7. Keep - By the holy god John Woo, please keep!!--GunFox13 20:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
8. Keep - I like the fact that, in comparison to the other dual-pistol suggestions, you didn't increase the power level of the guns themselves. Cheers to you! --Private Mark 20:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
9. Keep - I like it.-Studoku 21:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
10. Keep - You've reasoned it well and to me the numbers look good. Its not too powerful that it'll totally break the game and its not so weak that no-one'll use it. Nice job. -- Cheeseman ^W!RandomTalk 21:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
11. Keep - You've really thought this through. Finally a gun suggestion that doesn't break the game! --Themanwhocares4 22:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
12. Keep - Can't wait for dual shotguns. --Aeon17x 22:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
13. Keep - Well thought out and means trenchies can do their thing and not get a boost for doing it. So yes, overall very good idea. Well done. Acoustic Pie 23:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
14. keep - I liked the slightly different 'talk' version a better but frankly the numbers are Kevan's problem! --Honestmistake 23:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
15. Keep - I like it. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 23:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
16. Keep -How can I argue with Funt? He knows friggin everything! -doc crook 23:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
17. Keep - As above. --Banana reads Scoundrell for all of Yesterday's News, Today! 01:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
18. Keep - At the risk of sounding like a trenchie, this is actually really damn cool. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 03:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
19. Keep - because new attacks would be cool--Corndoghero^T-S-Z 05:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

    Keep - It's cool. Also, now we just need a way to fire the two pistols while we drive a motor cycle off a roof. ~~Disciple of Salsa 10:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC) Improperly signed. --Z. slay3r •  Talk  21:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

20. keep - i don't particulary like 2 gunz wielding idea, but i like increased variance --~~~~ [talk] 11:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
21. I am on a voting spree, but to make this vote valid, I'm in agreement with the above voters. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 15:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
22. Keep - Why not? -- John Rubin^{T! ZG} 18:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
23. Keep - Well thought out. Bring some more diversity to the game and such. --N00bert ^F 19:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
24. Keep - I liked it in Talk:Suggestions, I like it here. --Hhal 23:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
25. Keep - A buff, with drawbacks. Makes sense too. --Ciaran Deckardson 01:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
26. Keep - I have to admit, as soon as I saw the title, I came here at warp speed to vote spam. Then I read it, and it actually is the most balanced version of dual pistol use that I've seen so far. Plus, I'm pretty sure the reason you can't find any dupes is that we usually squash these while they're still in discussion. --Uncle Bill 05:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
27. Keep - I like it. --Heretic144 05:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
28. Keep - Well wrote and balanced. Pvt human 07:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
29. Cool - Tho i would prefer 40% on the 2nd shot (30%/5dmg 20%/10dmg) giving it 3.5(3)/AP vs 3.25(2.8)/AP pistol and 6.5(3.25)/AP shotgun (reload inclusive), giving the skill an actual purpose. - Pardus 10:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

    I'm not sure where you got the idea this would work with shotguns; firing a shotgun one handed isn't even cinematic, its inhuman. Anyhow, the purpose is having a chance to do 10 damage with 1 AP, using pistols. That's useful in itself; also giving a boost to average damage would be a bit much. If you want more average damage per AP, use shotguns.  Swiers 20:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

    You misunderstood, i wasn't taking about including shotguns, I was comparing my preference for a slight increase to standard pistol and shotgun. - Pardus 11:38, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

30. Keep - Finally, something to stamp out the undead threat! Not really, but it is a nice effect to the game. --RMinRED 18:20 10 February 10, 2008 (CNT)
31. Keep - Two guns at the same time, hehe fun fun!--Jamie Cantwell3 08:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
32. Keep - That does for me. The Mad Axeman 10:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
33. Keep- Fun idea, also adds an element of survivor desperation into the game. Might help break up Zombie Beachheads, making breakins a lot more fun!--Do not question mah authoritah! 16:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
34. Keep Why not? ~A`Blue`Jelly^TME*V*I*L*_? 00:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
35. Keep - A well thought out proposal. You've worked out the math on the dual wielding well. While it can do more damage, it also has the consequence of requiring much more searching for ammo if someone uses it all the time, which is a good balance that will prevent over use. The variance in damage is an improvement being as under the current system on contact a flare does more damage than a shotgun or pistol blast to the face, which is more or less totally ludicrous and a feature that probably needs to be rethought. This provides a much better, and more realistic, finishing option. --MagnificentX 23:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
36. Weak Keep - I really like the idea of this suggestion. However, I would change it to the normal accuracy rating of 65% for each shot. This is because it should be a SKILL. It should be designed to improve your character, not take a step back in accuracy. After all, you are a seasoned gunfighter. I like the idea though, so I'll vote for it.--Dr Doom86 07:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
37. Keep - It's nice. It'll waste ammo, but sometimes it'll be a good thing. In the name of fairness and balance, following this (if implemented), I think there should be a shotgun equivalent and a Zombie equivalent. Say, 1 shotgun loaded with 2 shells fires both and uses the same hit setup, except having slightly lower hit percentages due to stronger kickback. For a zombie attack, both a claw and bite. The thing to change there would be both attacks would have a decent decrease to accuracy, and they'd have their own chance to hit without relying on the other. Just my $0.02. --WhiteDragon2501 17:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
38. Keep - Viva la high variance! --Anotherpongo 14:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
39. Keep - POWER TO THE PKER!!--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 10:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
40. Keep - Good suggestion. Ioncannon11 08:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
41. weak keep - in spite of the obvious objections to dual pistol use, this one works well for me... i accept. --WanYao 14:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
42. Keep - It's got my vote, only objections are that stupid cheat for Zds to use guns and being on the recieving end of a double headshot!!!--Kamikazie-Bunny 20:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
43. Keep - Now I can live out my dream of being an action movie star!--Dante GunZ 17:55, 23 February 2008

Kill Votes

1. Kill - just don't like it, kinda pointless too.... but you thought it out well....--/~Rakuen~\^Talk I Still Love Grim 00:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
2. Kill - If it has an even lower chance of hitting... why bother? ----Secruss^|Yak|Brahnz!|CGR|PKA||EMLN|Templates|RRF|RFTM|Crap|WHOZ||MU|GN|C2008||01:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

   You have 1 AP. The zombie has 6-8 HP, and you shotgun is empty. But wait, you have 2 loaded pistols. Is a 12.5% chance of killing that zombie with your 1 AP worth the decreased accuracy?
   In general, its a way of trading sure hits for potentially higher damage. You could carry flare guns for that purpose, but pistols are more compact, and can be found more easily.  Swiers 01:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

3. Kill - Doublewielding is too trenchy for me to vote for. --Howard Bentley 01:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
4. Kill- Don't like what is suggested. -- BKM 03:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
5. Kill - Zombies have it unfair, NOT survivors. --The Gecko PKer 15:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
6. Kill – Pistols have many advantages commending them, notably high ammunition capacity and low encumbrance. The downside is lower variance. Survivors already have the two highest-variance attacks in the game, flare guns and shotguns – try carrying some of these in addition to your copious pistols and clips. ᚱᛁᚹᛖᚾᚨᚾᛏ 08:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam/Dupe - Dual weilding has been suggested repeatedly before. Heres one with a decrease in accuracy from 06 Link. Though that suggestion also covers nice, but other than that its essentially part of a previously rejected suggestion again. Also, it is far, far too trenchie. Throw the trenchies a bone and they will want the whole cow. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 02:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

   The link you gave has only the name in common; the mechanics are entirely different (it offers a single attack with one hit roll for fixed damage) as is the game balance effect (it does at least 50% greater average damage). Thats like calling an orange a dupe of an apple, just because both are named "fruit".  Swiers 02:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

2. Spam - don't encourage the trenchies please -- boxy ^{talk • i} 15:27 10 February 2008 (BST)

   Encourage them to what? Waste ammo flagrantly for (in most cases) no benefit? They already do that!  Swiers 20:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Yeah, that's the one. They're annoying enough already, without crap like this -- boxy ^{talk • i} 11:47 21 February 2008 (BST)

3. Spam - This is just stupid, It's giving them better shotguns with the Ammo usage alone.--Karek^maps?! 23:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
4. Spam - No free actions. -- Iscariot 18:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

---

Voting Rules

Current Suggestions Advice to Suggesters Adding options to your suggestion is not good practice. Others will not vote on the options, only the main body; please don't ask them to do so. Once you have posted your suggestion, it is considered complete. Altering the suggestion mechanics after voting has begun nullifies existing votes, and is considered an abuse of the suggestions system. Doing so will result in your suggestion being removed from the voting system to removed suggestions, where you can work out the details and resubmit later if you desire. It is preferred that you remove your own suggestion and resubmit a new version with changes, if changes are needed. "Notes" added for clarification purposes, and correcting spelling/typos are permitted. When considering adding a clarification note, it is often better for all parties involved, for the author to remove the suggestion and resubmit it with the clarification included for the voters who have already placed their votes. Advice to Voters You are voting on Suggestions, not Users. The text of your vote should not personally attack or denigrate the user who has submitted it... no matter how ridiculous the idea. Flaming and/or Trolling will not be tolerated. Before voting please read the Suggestions Dos and Do Nots and Frequently Suggested Ideas Page to read about concepts that have been generally considered unworkable in the past. You do not need to follow the guidelines on these pages but they are worth consideration before casting a vote. One vote per user. No exceptions. You cannot use multiple wiki accounts to vote on a suggestion. To Vote, use the [edit] button at the top of the voting section, then enter your vote in the the proper format to the end of the relevant section (keep/kill/spam). It is strongly recommended that voters (especially in the kill/spam sections) justify their vote to help others understand the reason they disagree. Feedback helps new suggesters get a feel for what the community does and does not want included in Urban Dead, and a deeper understanding of the balance needed for a workable suggestion. Votes must include a signature in order to be considered valid votes. To sign a vote, use --~~~~. Please remember to sign your votes! Unsigned votes will be deleted after 30 minutes or when found. Each Suggestion will be open to voting for two (2) weeks, measured from the suggestion's Timestamp, unless it is a Dupe or Spam. If, at the end of that time, there are two thirds (2/3) more Keep votes than Kill votes, the Suggestion will be moved to the Peer Reviewed Suggestions page. Otherwise, the Suggestion will be moved to the Peer Rejected Suggestions page.

Rules for Discussions Votes are NOT the place to discuss Suggestions. This page and archived suggestion pages only to be used for the Suggesting and subsequent Voting of these suggestions. If you wish to discuss the suggestion or vote here, please use this page's Talk page (Suggestion talk:20080208 Gunfighter Skill : Dual Pistol Use). Suggestions do not have to be submitted in order to discuss them. Developing Suggestions can be used to workshop possible suggestions before they are submitted.

Valid Votes Keep, for Suggestions that you believe have merit. Kill, for Suggestions that you believe do not have merit. If you need to discuss a rule fix, use the discussion page. Spam, for the most ridiculous suggestions. Suggestions can be removed with Spam votes as described on the cycling suggestions page. If the criterion described there are not fulfilled, the suggestion must remain for the whole two weeks. Spam votes are not a "strong kill", they are simply here to prevent the utterly ridiculous from clogging up the system. If you do not like the idea, and it's not some crazy uber power or something else ridiculous, VOTE KILL, NOT SPAM. Spam votes will be counted as Kill when votes are tallied. Dupe, for Suggestions that are exact or very close duplicates of previous suggestions. For a Dupe vote to be valid, a link must be provided to the original suggestion. Dupe votes can be used to remove suggestions as described on the cycling suggestions page. Dupe votes will not be counted when votes are tallied. Humourous, for suggestions that are obviously intended to be satirical, or of comedic value only.}} Suggestions can be removed with Humourous votes as described on the cycling suggestions page. If the criterion described there are not fulfilled, the suggestion must remain for the whole two weeks.

Invalid Votes Server Load and Programming Complexity are NOT very good Kill reasons. You are voting on the merit of the suggestion and whether or not you think it belongs in the game. Server load/complexity issues are up to Kevan to decide. X should be implemented first is not a valid reason for a vote. You are voting on the merit of THIS suggestion, not how it compares to others. Votes that do not have reasoning behind them are invalid. You MUST justify your vote.

Comments Re may be used to comment on a vote. Only the original author and the person being REd can comment. Comments are restricted to a single comment per vote, and it is expected that Re comments be as short as possible. Reing every kill vote is considered abuse of the Re comment. A Re does not count as a vote, and any subsequent discussion not part of the Re comment should be held on the discussion page if there is any extended commenting. Note is used by System Operators to invalidate trolling-based votes. Only Sysops may remove troll-based votes and they do so with a strikeout <s></s> in order to preserve the trolling removal for posterity. The voter may contest the strikeout with the Sysop that struck their vote out on the discussion page. Only a System Operator may remove a strikeout.

All Caps Try to avoid YELLING, writing in bold, or using italics, except when emphasizing a point which has escaped other voters.

VOTING EXAMPLES Keep Votes Keep - I am the author and I am allowed to vote once on my own suggestions. --MrSuggester 05:01, 11 Nov 2005 (GMT) Keep - Best. Suggestion. Evar. --Bob_Zombie 04:01, 11 Nov 2005 (GMT) Keep - Good sugestion. no signature --FakeSuggester 07:39, 15 Nov 2005 (GMT) Kill Votes Kill - This is a terrible idea, but you can totally fix it up. --NegativeGal 06:01, 12 Nov 2005 (GMT) Re - Please be more specific about how to fix it on the discussion page. --MrSuggester 14:01, 12 Nov 2005 (GMT) Re - Sure, I have detailed my proposed fixes here. --NegativeGal 23:38, 12 Nov 2005 (GMT) Kill - You will eat my poopie and love it! --PooEater 11:12, 13 Nov 2005 (GMT) Note - Inane vote removed. Defend in discussion. --DaModerator 11:13, 13 Nov 2005 (GMT) Spam/Dupe Votes Spam - Kung Fu CB Mama on Wheels is an inappropriate Survivor Class. --NoFunAtAll 09:01, 12 Nov 2005 (GMT) Dupe - Duplicate Suggestion --AnotherSuggester 05:01, 14 Nov 2005 (GMT)