Suggestion:20080604 Barricade Bash: Version 2

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	This suggestion has finished voting and has been moved to Peer Reviewed.

20080604 Barricade Bash: Version 2

Cheese 20:32, 4 June 2008 (BST)

Suggestion type
Slight balance change

Suggestion scope
Zombies

Suggestion description
This is a reworking of my previous idea. Rather than introducing a skill to double a zombies attack rate against barricades (as it was originally), this suggestion will increase the base rate of barricade attacks for all zombies by 7.5%.

The justification behind this is that when a player attacks a barricade, the accuracy of the attack they are making halves (except in the case of a crowbar), so for example using a maxed out fire axe would have an accuracy of 20% as opposed to 40% and a maxed out claw would be 25% as opposed to 50%.

Here's the number stuff (Higher Maths don't fail me now!). AP figures have been rounded up:

• Current rate of barricade attack for zombie without Vigor Mortis (i.e newly dead survivor): 12.5%
  • AP to destroy EHB+2 Barricade: 152AP
  • AP to destroy VSB+2 Barricade: 80AP
• Current rate of barricade attack for zombie with Vigor Mortis: 17.5%
  • AP to destroy EHB+2 Barricade: 109AP
  • AP to destroy VSB+2 Barricade: 58AP
• Current rate of barricade attack for zombie with Death Grip + Vigor Mortis: 25%
  • AP to destroy EHB+2 Barricade: 76AP
  • AP to destroy VSB+2 Barricade: 40AP

As you can see, brand new zombies that have just joined the hordes have no hope in hell of breaking down a barricade with these measly rates. Let's have a look at the beefed up versions.

• Revised rate of barricade attack for zombie without Vigor Mortis: 20%
  • AP to destroy EHB+2 Barricade: 95AP
  • AP to destroy VSB+2 Barricade: 50AP
• Revised rate of barricade attack for zombie with Vigor Mortis: 25%
  • AP to destroy EHB+2 Barricade: 76AP
  • AP to destroy VSB+2 Barricade: 40AP
• Revised rate of barricade attack for zombie with Death Grip + Vigor Mortis: 32.5%
  • AP to destroy EHB+2 Barricade: 59AP
  • AP to destroy VSB+2 Barricade: 31AP

As you can see, this gives a pretty good boost to new zombies hit rates as well as making things a bit easier for seasoned zombies. This in turn will encourage more players to play as zombies, therefore making the game much more fun as a result and fixing that huge balance issue that lies between survivors and zombies.

Note: If you would like to know more about the current barricade destruction rates, check out this page, which contains data for all barricade levels up to EHB+4.

Voting Section

Voting Rules

Votes must be numbered, justified, signed, and timestamped. # justification ~~~~ Votes that do not conform to the above may be struck by any user.

The only valid votes are Keep, Kill, Spam or Dupe. If you wish to abstain from voting, do not vote.

Keep Votes

1. Author Keep - The numbers actually worked out better than I thought. -- Cheese 20:49, 4 June 2008 (BST)
2. Keep - With my level 42 zombie, I have spent 50ap attacking a VSB+0 building and only brought it to LOB. -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 20:54, 4 June 2008 (BST)
3. Keep - This is a very good suggestion. --The Hierophant 21:21, 4 June 2008 (BST)
4. Keep - Kinda iffy on it myself, but I like the basic idea. --Specialist290 ♠♥♣♦ 23:21, 4 June 2008 (BST)
5. Keep - Its not a big change however it would be for the better. --Takiel 18:28 (EST), 4 June 2008
6. Keep - A rare keep vote. Wow, I really wanted to vote spam on this suggestion, but this is far more reasonable than the last one.  Billy Club Thorton  T!  RR  23:33, 4 June 2008 (BST)
7. Keep - I like the new numbers. --Aeon17x 23:36, 4 June 2008 (BST)
8. Keep - I like it. --Jamie Cantwel3 ^TalkAll glory to the Hypnotoad! 23:45, 4 June 2008 (BST)
9. Keep - Really good, especially for low level zeds.-- 
   •  Nevin McAvoy 
   •  (talk) 
   23:54, 4 June 2008 (BST)
10. Keep - Nice. Well thought out. - W 23:57, 4 June 2008 (BST)
11. Keep - Numbers look alright, might be a tad bit high on the VS+2 for unskilled zombies, but whatever. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 23:59, 4 June 2008 (BST)
12. Keep - I like it. Not a huge change, but it would be a step in the right direction. -- - Crypto ^LOL 00:05, 5 June 2008 (BST)
13. Keep - As The Hierophant. -- T^HEL^ORDG^UNS^LINGER 02:14, 5 June 2008 (BST)
14. Keep - Wow -- yes. The numbers may not be perfect, but the increase seems just enough to give zombies a fighting (if difficult) chance. Best barricade solution I've seen so far. --Jen 02:41, 5 June 2008 (BST)
15. Keep - The new numbers make a lot more sense than the current ones. For example, even with the buff, no grownup zambah would usually be able to get inside an EHB++ building on his own. He could get inside a VSB++, but couldn't really kill anyone, just maybe infect some folk, groan a bit, whatever. Anyone who has ever played a lonely feral will know that this needs to pass. And... All you whinging survivors who'll scream that this is overpowered.... You have all the advantages AP-wise in UD! You just don't use them, you play like rank n00bs. Standing around cluster farked in TRPs, playing "Stand and die!" Killing and not dumping zombies, instead of fixing breaches and healing the injured. Not using real time strikes or even X:00 coordination like zambahz do. Need I go on? If you played smart, even this buff would not be a significant problem. --WanYao 11:39, 5 June 2008 (BST)
16. Keep - I have never said this about any suggestion before, but this is perfect. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 16:01, 5 June 2008 (BST)
17. Keep - A wonderful suggestion that should have been a long time coming. When barricades can't be breached without metagaming ones ass off, a problem exists. --#19 - DrPain ^TMG 16:24, 5 June 2008 (BST)
18. Keep - It's not a massive buff but definitely a needed one. Rotting TRex 17:29, 5 June 2008 (BST)

    Keep - I like it. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 17:38, 5 June 2008 (BST) Changed my vote. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 20:41, 11 June 2008 (BST)

19. Keep - Time for a legitimate improvement. --Eizenfaust 17:59, 5 June 2008 (BST)
20. Keep - Well thought out. Suggestions this good are very rare.--– Nubis ^NWO 18:12, 5 June 2008 (BST)
21. Keep - Agreed! Without metagaming and timed coordination, it is difficult for even a few zombies to open up a building and THEN have enough energy left to enjoy the food. Only after you've gathered about 10-20 ferals can it be managed under the current percentages. --Ginormous 18:59, 5 June 2008 (BST)
22. Keep - It takes far too much AP to take down barricades considering how easy it is to put them up, so this is good.--drawde ^{Porn!RR•RRF} 20:57, 5 June 2008 (BST)
23. Keep - A world of yes. This is exactly what we need. As someone who's just burnt out all 50 AP to barely dent a VSB++ building? Yes. This would be magnificent and go, if not a long way, then some distance, toward making "non meta-gaming zombie" as viable as "non meta-gaming survivor" as a choice that is both fun and effective. Jerith 21:02, 5 June 2008 (BST)
24. Keep - As a zombie in an almost always zombieless area, it sucks. I support this. --Druuuuu ^OcTRR 23:24, 5 June 2008 (BST)
25. Keep - Wow. This actually seems to be going over well. But yeah, barricades have always been way overpowered. This will actually give lone ferals a chance. -- Murray Jay Suskind 01:28, 6 June 2008 (BST)
26. Keep - I'm a bit worried about it being too powerful, but for the love of feral zombies, yes please. --Jasonjason 02:26, 6 June 2008 (BST)
27. Keep - Attacking barricades as it currently stands is the most boring part about being a zombie and makes it easier to kill as a human. --Drplump 02:44, 6 June 2008 (BST)
28. Keep - As above --Janis petke 12:06, 6 June 2008 (BST)
29. Keep - I'm a fan of making lower level zombies have more parity so they don't quit the game in frustration; a minor boost to this could enable more new survivor mechanics in the game without making zombies an endangered species. This is the best way I've seen to de-overpower the barricade mechanics somewhat. --Riseabove 20:41, 6 June 2008 (BST)
30. Keep - As Grim and Riseabove, and as a note, Kevan has shown he has skill with flavor, as long as the idea is good enough he can find a way to explain it.--Karek^maps?! 20:53, 6 June 2008 (BST)
31. Keep - Private Human? What, so you're a public zombie? --BoboTalkClown 22:09, 6 June 2008 (BST)
32. Keep - Balance is good. --Colbear 12:38, 7 June 2008 (BST)
33. Keep - Addresses the game's imbalance towards zombies, I am all for it. --カシュー, ザ ゾンビ クィーン (ビープ ビープ) @ 21:11, 7 June 2008 (BST)
34. Keep - Harrah --Sir Bob Fortune ^RR 14:37, 8 June 2008 (BST)
35. Keep - Above. --•▬ ▬••▬ • •••• •▬ ▬•▬• ▬•▬ ^{#nerftemplatedsigs} 15:07, 8 June 2008 (BST)
36. Keep - I would have preferred a 5-point increase, but no matter - this works just as well. ~Ariedartin • Talk • A KS J abt all 17:22, 8 June 2008 (BST)

    Re - When I worked it all out, a 5% increase wasn't quite high enough and a 10% increase was hugely more than what I thought. So I went for 7.5% and it seemed a pretty much perfect number. Not too low so that it wouldn't really affect much, and not too high that it would break the game. With 10%, zombies would have been inside a VSB+2 building in about 25AP. -- Cheese 11:30, 17 June 2008 (BST)

37. Keep - This isn't that big of a change, you know. It's only a few AP. Hardly gamebreaking. --UCFSD 15:31, 9 June 2008 (BST)
38. Keep - Time for a fair go for the lone feral. --Godzman 12:33, 10 June 2008 (BST)
39. Keep - Very good suggestion.--KOOKY 17:50, 10 June 2008 (BST)
40. Clinton - She's still in the race, damnit! Never give up! --Karloth Vois TALK ^RR 17:28, 10 June 2008 (BST)
41. Keep - It's needed. Zeds are burning AP gesturing at barricades instead of taking them down because they know they can't get them down, get inside and attack harmans within 50 AP. Nobody wants to blow a day's worth of AP taking down a barricade, but they'd be more likely to try if they knew they had a reasonable shot at getting it down instead of just 3-4 XP to make a minor dent. --Shigogouhou 00:13, 11 June 2008 (BST)
42. Keep/Change - Zombies w/o Vigor Mortis should not be able to take out a VSB+2 entire building with 50 AP. I recommend a revise to somewhere around 16 percent instead. If you do have Vigor Mortis, then it should be at about 21.5 percent. With VM and Death Grip, percentage should hit around 29 percent. Zombies rely on group efforts, and this was no mistake. Kevan clearly thought that out. So a lone zombie should not be able to attack a building and kill more than survivor inside in one login. Good thinking, but it's just too overpowering for a lone zombie. Imagine this during a siege! --L33t 0wn3r 00:24, 11 June 2008 (BST)
43. Keep - Barricades bounce back too quickly at the moment. --Capt Schwartz 00:56, 11 June 2008 (BST)
44. Keep - Also, it should not be possible to free run from ruins. - Grant (talk) 10:31, 11 June 2008 (BST)
45. Keep - Cading is so easy it's ridiculous. How quickly can people wrestle a soda machine into place? This suggestion would help the severe survivor/zombah effectiveness imbalance. Zombahs often can't find a big horde, so the usual building attacker is a high-level zed trying to find harmanz to groan and attract the neighbors. Taking the time to destroy an EHB cade just makes for sitting targets, so VSB entry points get attacked. This leaves survivor newbies trapped outside. All bad, all the time. Changing the hit percentages would kill off the problem at its source. --Ghills 20:31, 11 June 2008 (BST)
46. Keep- Ja, nein grund zu nerf zombies.--BKM 20:11, 12 June 2008 (BST)
47. Keep Because as a commited survivor I want a challenge. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 20:19, 12 June 2008 (BST)
48. Keep Awesome, it's way to hard to break down cades. --Super Nweb 20:49, 12 June 2008 (BST)

    Keep - Due to trenchy delusions below. -- . . <== DDR Approved Editor 21:43, 18 June 2008 (BST) Past voting time. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 10:14, 19 June 2008 (BST)

Kill Votes

1. kill Zombies really don't need a buff, in a good sized horde, like my charrie zom-fu is in right now, most of the time, 5-10 zombies bring cades down faster then one zombie could ever. And in zombie movies, unless their uber-zombies, one tearing down a cade other then a chair behind the door is rare. Padfu-Zomfu 12:13, 5 June 2008 (BST)
2. Weak kill/change - Toned down compared with the previous version, but now the accuracy shown in the drop-down box will be even more confusing than they are at present. As I said last time I'd prefer occasional "critical hits" that happen rarely (0.5% or less) and do huge damage to cades (3-5HP). --Explodey 00:14, 5 June 2008 (BST)
3. How do you get half a percent? The RNG doesn't do decimals, so far as I know.--Pesatyel 04:06, 5 June 2008 (BST)

   Look again. Yes it does. --WanYao 11:43, 5 June 2008 (BST) - Non-author RE struck

   Have another read of the first paragraph. From what we can gather the barricade attack accuracies are half of the regular attacks. A base zombie attack is 25%, half of that is 12.5%. Therefore, it should be reasonably possible to do. I'm not a programmer but I assume that it should work with decimals. -- Cheese 17:59, 5 June 2008 (BST)

   Further discussion on the talk page. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 23:14, 5 June 2008 (BST)

4. Kill - too big a buff, in my opinion. However, [He Who Shalt Not Be Named] will see this, and if he doesn't already tweak the values, the idea to do so is now out there. Job done. --Funt Solo ^QT 09:43, 5 June 2008 (BST)
5. kill - I've played both zombies and survivors. The current rate of debarricading for zombies seems about right. THis isn't needed. The Mad Axeman 11:05, 5 June 2008 (BST)
6. Kill - Uninteresting idea based almost entirely on balance shift. Yawn. --Pgunn 13:13, 5 June 2008 (BST)
7. Kill - As Pvt Human, but being nicer about it. And one of my characters is a zombie currently in a siege. People keep saying there are two things which survivors have which protect them - barracades and mobility. So why keep trying to take those two things away - if zombies want to break down barracades more easily, do it with a group. Zombies are powerful against barracades when in large numbers. And to WanYao, survivors can't do X:00 strategy because in a siege, zombies decide the timetable for attacks on cades, not survivors.--Tselita 21:30, 5 June 2008 (BST)
8. kill- It should never be that easy for a zombie to break down a barricade and beggining zombies are suppose to have trouble breaking down barricades, thats why there are beggining players, who dont know how to get in a building and just sleep outsideSchizoidgull 21:36, 5 June 2008 (BST)
9. kill - Hell no! The zeds can already jam cades, now you want a lone zombie to be able to break into my safehouse? No way. Ioncannon11 02:43, 6 June 2008 (BST)
10. Jaysus - and how will this flow in with the plot? "Zombies learn how to bash barricades better?" If you're going to suggest a zombie buff, which I now agree is necessary, at least try to be creative with it. --Vandurn 13:39, 6 June 2008 (BST)
11. Kill / Change - Everyone is saying that this is a nice minor buff, but to me it doesn't look minor at all; once you multiply by a billion the net AP savings for zombies are staggering. Imagine what something like this would do for the next megahorde that gets started. I wouldn't mind new zombies (perhaps levels 5 and below) getting a small increase against cades, however...something to make early zombie play a bit less frustrating.--Jiangyingzi 02:19, 7 June 2008 (BST)
12. kill - not needed --Scotw 20:48, 7 June 2008 (BST)
13. Kill/Change - I think a better solution would be to nerf survivors' cading ability. --Midianian^{|T|T:S|C:RCS|} 20:41, 11 June 2008 (BST)
14. kill - sieges are already difficult now and by making it easier for hordes to take down cades the game will become almost impossible.--Lt.G Deathnut ^freelance 06:36, 13 June 2008 (BST)
15. kill - In my admittedly limited experience, nothing stops zombies from getting in right now. This would just make it worse. - Fred Fredfredson 05:06, 14 June 2008 (BST)
16. Kill - would give zeds too much of an ede- would seriously unbalance the game. --Irounds 13:57, 15 June 2008 (BST)
17. Kill - I must admit I do like it however I feel zombies should work in hordes, if they can take down barricades on their own it encourages ferals and reduces the hordes. --Kamikazie-Bunny 12:43, 18 June 2008 (BST)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam - 1 zombie should NEVER be able to take down a barricade by themself easily, this suggestion is bullshit. --Pvt human 13:51, 5 June 2008 (BST)

   I expected a spam vote from one or two trenchy type people. Try playing a zombie, then you'll see how easy survivors have it. -- Cheese 17:51, 5 June 2008 (BST)

   Before I joined a group I played a duel nature character, If something was too difficult to break in, I move to a easier target, just because other players are too dumb to realise this dosent mean they should be buffed. --Pvt human 23:05, 5 June 2008 (BST)

   You mean you were able to take down strong barricades in one go, and get inside? Damn, wish I had the luck you have.--drawde ^{Porn!•RR•RRF} 19:56, 10 June 2008 (BST) Non-author RE struck. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 20:24, 10 June 2008 (BST)

2. Dupe - and original was much more balanced. Leon Clinton 20:38, 7 June 2008 (BST)

   Not a dupe. That one is a skill. This one is a straight up buff for all zombies. The mechanics of mine are different in the fact that there is no penalty depending on the number of zombies. Try reading next time you try to dupe something. -- Cheese 21:17, 7 June 2008 (BST)

   Your concept of dupe is rather flexible. (Sorry, couldn't resist :p ). Speaking seriously, I think that something in between would be a better solution - such that helps new zombies, but doesn't shift all game balance dramatically. Zombie mobs seems strong as they are - look what they just did to Caiger. Leon Clinton 23:19, 7 June 2008 (BST)

3. as Pvt human. --Officer Dick Trickle 19:14, 11 June 2008 (BST)