https://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&feed=atom&action=historyTalk:Suburb - Revision history2024-03-29T06:39:26ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.37.1https://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428616&oldid=prevDragonshardz: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2024-03-15T19:39:35Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::::While I agree Matahashi is a troll and the wiki decision making is as broken as democratic politics can be, I don't agree with marking everything as very dangerous. There would need to be a significant survivor population. Maybe make a new color for moderately dangerous but in zombie control? [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::::While I agree Matahashi is a troll and the wiki decision making is as broken as democratic politics can be, I don't agree with marking everything as very dangerous. There would need to be a significant survivor population. Maybe make a new color for moderately dangerous but in zombie control? [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::I'd just give it a number system, with pretty little icons and color coding. Scale of 0-10 for each statistic - 0/0/0 is a blacked-out ruin devoid of movement, 0/0/10 is all pretty but uninhabited (which is what most of the map is, let's be real), 10/10/0 is where there's active fighting. --{{User:Dragonshardz/dragonshardz}} {{Goonsig|Dragonshardz}} 19:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::I'd just give it a number system, with pretty little icons and color coding. Scale of 0-10 for each statistic - 0/0/0 is a blacked-out ruin devoid of movement, 0/0/10 is all pretty but uninhabited (which is what most of the map is, let's be real), 10/10/0 is where there's active fighting. --{{User:Dragonshardz/dragonshardz}} {{Goonsig|Dragonshardz}} 19:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::::I actually quite like [[User:Zombie_Lord/sandbox1 the icons here]] as something to work with, maybe expand the color scheme to include blue (completely safe, fully intact, mostly inhabited by survivors) and gray (dangerous, wrecked, nothing but zombies) --{{User:Dragonshardz/dragonshardz}} {{Goonsig|Dragonshardz}} 19:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td></tr>
</table>Dragonshardzhttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428615&oldid=prevDragonshardz: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2024-03-15T19:28:40Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 19:28, 15 March 2024</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{unsigned|MrMap|18:28, 26 November 2023}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{unsigned|MrMap|18:28, 26 November 2023}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The danger levels have been an on-off hot topic over the decades. I'm not sure that adding more danger levels in addition to what is already present would be useful, like splitting hairs. But there could be an argument for simplifying to an "Active" (there's action happening here) vs. "Inactive" (nothing much going on), although you'd lose the ruined/intact info. There's some historic interest in making the danger levels not survivor-centric (i.e., not dangerous or safe from the perspective of a survivor). So that's often a discussion that's been had when any changes to the danger levels have been made or discussed. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The danger levels have been an on-off hot topic over the decades. I'm not sure that adding more danger levels in addition to what is already present would be useful, like splitting hairs. But there could be an argument for simplifying to an "Active" (there's action happening here) vs. "Inactive" (nothing much going on), although you'd lose the ruined/intact info. There's some historic interest in making the danger levels not survivor-centric (i.e., not dangerous or safe from the perspective of a survivor). So that's often a discussion that's been had when any changes to the danger levels have been made or discussed. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::The previous danger level discussions have all been abandoned or implemented already and the vast majority here should be archived to another page as its mostly clutter at this point. The changes that made it through where incremetal changes, like adding intact, and so this is following in the footsteps of what has worked. The idea is differentiating active burbs that are either in zombie control or survivor control. They both could be argued as very dangerous, or moderately dangerous, but the burbs are in completely different situations, and we have no way to indicate that. Instead ghost towns have been used for zombie occupied dangerous, and survivor occupied range from safe to very dangereous with no decernable way to choose one. If the wiki is not able to provide understandable accurate information, what is the point?{{unsigned}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::The previous danger level discussions have all been abandoned or implemented already and the vast majority here should be archived to another page as its mostly clutter at this point. The changes that made it through where incremetal changes, like adding intact, and so this is following in the footsteps of what has worked. The idea is differentiating active burbs that are either in zombie control or survivor control. They both could be argued as very dangerous, or moderately dangerous, but the burbs are in completely different situations, and we have no way to indicate that. Instead ghost towns have been used for zombie occupied dangerous, and survivor occupied range from safe to very dangereous with no decernable way to choose one. If the wiki is not able to provide understandable accurate information, what is the point?{{unsigned<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|MrMap|00:19, 2 December 2023</ins>}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::I like the idea on the new colors, not sold on the descriptions. Dead is Safe for Zombies (Easy to stand back up and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Survivors (Assuming they repair a building). Active is Safe for Survivors (Easy to get a revive and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Zombies (Assuming they break into a building). -- [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::I like the idea on the new colors, not sold on the descriptions. Dead is Safe for Zombies (Easy to stand back up and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Survivors (Assuming they repair a building). Active is Safe for Survivors (Easy to get a revive and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Zombies (Assuming they break into a building). -- [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Theres 0 reason to add new danger levels to the map other than you just wanting a special tag for you and your group to throw around. Dunnel Hills is indeed a ghost town until you decide to log in your inactive alts because someone did something major. -[[User:Matahashi|Matahashi]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Theres 0 reason to add new danger levels to the map other than you just wanting a special tag for you and your group to throw around. Dunnel Hills is indeed a ghost town until you decide to log in your inactive alts because someone did something major. -[[User:Matahashi|Matahashi]]</div></td></tr>
</table>Dragonshardzhttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428614&oldid=prevDragonshardz: fixing indents, and an unsigned comment2024-03-15T19:27:14Z<p>fixing indents, and an unsigned comment</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 19:27, 15 March 2024</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l99">Line 99:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{unsigned|MrMap|18:28, 26 November 2023}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{unsigned|MrMap|18:28, 26 November 2023}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The danger levels have been an on-off hot topic over the decades. I'm not sure that adding more danger levels in addition to what is already present would be useful, like splitting hairs. But there could be an argument for simplifying to an "Active" (there's action happening here) vs. "Inactive" (nothing much going on), although you'd lose the ruined/intact info. There's some historic interest in making the danger levels not survivor-centric (i.e., not dangerous or safe from the perspective of a survivor). So that's often a discussion that's been had when any changes to the danger levels have been made or discussed. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:The danger levels have been an on-off hot topic over the decades. I'm not sure that adding more danger levels in addition to what is already present would be useful, like splitting hairs. But there could be an argument for simplifying to an "Active" (there's action happening here) vs. "Inactive" (nothing much going on), although you'd lose the ruined/intact info. There's some historic interest in making the danger levels not survivor-centric (i.e., not dangerous or safe from the perspective of a survivor). So that's often a discussion that's been had when any changes to the danger levels have been made or discussed. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::The previous danger level discussions have all been abandoned or implemented already and the vast majority here should be archived to another page as its mostly clutter at this point. The changes that made it through where incremetal changes, like adding intact, and so this is following in the footsteps of what has worked. The idea is differentiating active burbs that are either in zombie control or survivor control. They both could be argued as very dangerous, or moderately dangerous, but the burbs are in completely different situations, and we have no way to indicate that. Instead ghost towns have been used for zombie occupied dangerous, and survivor occupied range from safe to very dangereous with no decernable way to choose one. If the wiki is not able to provide understandable accurate information, what is the point?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::The previous danger level discussions have all been abandoned or implemented already and the vast majority here should be archived to another page as its mostly clutter at this point. The changes that made it through where incremetal changes, like adding intact, and so this is following in the footsteps of what has worked. The idea is differentiating active burbs that are either in zombie control or survivor control. They both could be argued as very dangerous, or moderately dangerous, but the burbs are in completely different situations, and we have no way to indicate that. Instead ghost towns have been used for zombie occupied dangerous, and survivor occupied range from safe to very dangereous with no decernable way to choose one. If the wiki is not able to provide understandable accurate information, what is the point?<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{unsigned}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::I like the idea on the new colors, not sold on the descriptions. Dead is Safe for Zombies (Easy to stand back up and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Survivors (Assuming they repair a building). Active is Safe for Survivors (Easy to get a revive and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Zombies (Assuming they break into a building). -- [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::I like the idea on the new colors, not sold on the descriptions. Dead is Safe for Zombies (Easy to stand back up and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Survivors (Assuming they repair a building). Active is Safe for Survivors (Easy to get a revive and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Zombies (Assuming they break into a building). -- [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Theres 0 reason to add new danger levels to the map other than you just wanting a special tag for you and your group to throw around. Dunnel Hills is indeed a ghost town until you decide to log in your inactive alts because someone did something major. -[[User:Matahashi|Matahashi]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Theres 0 reason to add new danger levels to the map other than you just wanting a special tag for you and your group to throw around. Dunnel Hills is indeed a ghost town until you decide to log in your inactive alts because someone did something major. -[[User:Matahashi|Matahashi]]</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::Do you have a specific counter proposal other then going to a binary active/inactive, which you seem to also be against due to the loss of info? Incremental changes seem to be the only thing that works here, we have ruined/caded while devoid of players, but we don't have ruined/caded with active combat. As you say, its all survivor point of view with no indication of cade status. What do we need to arrive at consensus? When bob made the proposal for intact on April 11th, he waited until the 14th when he bumped discussion and one person responded. Then on the 18th he made the changes. Currently we have an "I'm not sure" a "Yes" and a "No" vote from someone whose sole contribution to the wiki is to revert other people's updates. I'd argue that vote is not in good faith, that they are not actually evaluating the merits of the proposal, and are jumping to conclusions based on bias, but whatever. We have a vote from The Dead (ZPatriot) and we have a vote from Soldiers of Crossman (Matahashi), so I think we should consider them team representatives, instead of getting into some pissing contest to see who can recruit the most members of their team to dog pile the vote. As the only other person engaging in the discussion, it seems like you have the tie breaking vote. Or maybe we need to get bob in here to give it an eval/pov? {{unsigned|MrMap|21:42, 15 December 2023}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::Do you have a specific counter proposal other then going to a binary active/inactive, which you seem to also be against due to the loss of info? Incremental changes seem to be the only thing that works here, we have ruined/caded while devoid of players, but we don't have ruined/caded with active combat. As you say, its all survivor point of view with no indication of cade status. What do we need to arrive at consensus? When bob made the proposal for intact on April 11th, he waited until the 14th when he bumped discussion and one person responded. Then on the 18th he made the changes. Currently we have an "I'm not sure" a "Yes" and a "No" vote from someone whose sole contribution to the wiki is to revert other people's updates. I'd argue that vote is not in good faith, that they are not actually evaluating the merits of the proposal, and are jumping to conclusions based on bias, but whatever. We have a vote from The Dead (ZPatriot) and we have a vote from Soldiers of Crossman (Matahashi), so I think we should consider them team representatives, instead of getting into some pissing contest to see who can recruit the most members of their team to dog pile the vote. As the only other person engaging in the discussion, it seems like you have the tie breaking vote. Or maybe we need to get bob in here to give it an eval/pov? {{unsigned|MrMap|21:42, 15 December 2023}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::There was apparently discussion on Discord on the "Intact" level in addition to what was written on the wiki. A good way to test whether there is consensus after discussion is to implement the changes and see what happens. In Bob's case, the changes did not provoke dissent and many members of the wiki have used the Intact level in the following years. In your case, changes have been reverted within the day, so it does not appear that the changes have consensus. It could be that people are not interested in changing the system at all, or they just don't agree with these specific proposed changes. Personally, my preferred system is something that captures three things in an unbiased way: (1) survivor numbers, (2) zombie numbers, and (3) infrastructure (i.e., 'cades, ruins, lighting). But the main issue to overcome in implementing this is finding a way to retain the at-a-glance simplicity with the current design. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 03:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::There was apparently discussion on Discord on the "Intact" level in addition to what was written on the wiki. A good way to test whether there is consensus after discussion is to implement the changes and see what happens. In Bob's case, the changes did not provoke dissent and many members of the wiki have used the Intact level in the following years. In your case, changes have been reverted within the day, so it does not appear that the changes have consensus. It could be that people are not interested in changing the system at all, or they just don't agree with these specific proposed changes. Personally, my preferred system is something that captures three things in an unbiased way: (1) survivor numbers, (2) zombie numbers, and (3) infrastructure (i.e., 'cades, ruins, lighting). But the main issue to overcome in implementing this is finding a way to retain the at-a-glance simplicity with the current design. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 03:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::The revert was made out of ignorance and then spite. If your requirement is unanimity, certainly we should not include the voice whose only contribution to the wiki is to harass other people. While I am happy to explore and try to solidify a proposal that meets your desires, it is clear that a full revamp will be much harder to reach consensus on, so I'd like to focus on what can be tweaked in this proposal to make it more agreeable. Dead and Active do in fact communicate some of the info you are looking for, particularly low cades with sizable zombie population and high cades with sizeable zombie population, neither of which we can currently communicate. Best current options are very dangerous for no cades zombie controlled and dangerous for mostly caded survivor controlled.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</ins>::::::::The revert was made out of ignorance and then spite. If your requirement is unanimity, certainly we should not include the voice whose only contribution to the wiki is to harass other people. While I am happy to explore and try to solidify a proposal that meets your desires, it is clear that a full revamp will be much harder to reach consensus on, so I'd like to focus on what can be tweaked in this proposal to make it more agreeable. Dead and Active do in fact communicate some of the info you are looking for, particularly low cades with sizable zombie population and high cades with sizeable zombie population, neither of which we can currently communicate. Best current options are very dangerous for no cades zombie controlled and dangerous for mostly caded survivor controlled.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{unsigned|MrMap|00:07, 17 December 2023}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::While I agree Matahashi is a troll and the wiki decision making is as broken as democratic politics can be, I don't agree with marking everything as very dangerous. There would need to be a significant survivor population. Maybe make a new color for moderately dangerous but in zombie control? [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</ins>:::::::::While I agree Matahashi is a troll and the wiki decision making is as broken as democratic politics can be, I don't agree with marking everything as very dangerous. There would need to be a significant survivor population. Maybe make a new color for moderately dangerous but in zombie control? [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::I'd just give it a number system, with pretty little icons and color coding. Scale of 0-10 for each statistic - 0/0/0 is a blacked-out ruin devoid of movement, 0/0/10 is all pretty but uninhabited (which is what most of the map is, let's be real), 10/10/0 is where there's active fighting. --{{User:Dragonshardz/dragonshardz}} {{Goonsig|Dragonshardz}} 19:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::I'd just give it a number system, with pretty little icons and color coding. Scale of 0-10 for each statistic - 0/0/0 is a blacked-out ruin devoid of movement, 0/0/10 is all pretty but uninhabited (which is what most of the map is, let's be real), 10/10/0 is where there's active fighting. --{{User:Dragonshardz/dragonshardz}} {{Goonsig|Dragonshardz}} 19:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
</table>Dragonshardzhttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428613&oldid=prevDragonshardz: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2024-03-15T19:24:59Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 19:24, 15 March 2024</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l108">Line 108:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 108:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::The revert was made out of ignorance and then spite. If your requirement is unanimity, certainly we should not include the voice whose only contribution to the wiki is to harass other people. While I am happy to explore and try to solidify a proposal that meets your desires, it is clear that a full revamp will be much harder to reach consensus on, so I'd like to focus on what can be tweaked in this proposal to make it more agreeable. Dead and Active do in fact communicate some of the info you are looking for, particularly low cades with sizable zombie population and high cades with sizeable zombie population, neither of which we can currently communicate. Best current options are very dangerous for no cades zombie controlled and dangerous for mostly caded survivor controlled.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::The revert was made out of ignorance and then spite. If your requirement is unanimity, certainly we should not include the voice whose only contribution to the wiki is to harass other people. While I am happy to explore and try to solidify a proposal that meets your desires, it is clear that a full revamp will be much harder to reach consensus on, so I'd like to focus on what can be tweaked in this proposal to make it more agreeable. Dead and Active do in fact communicate some of the info you are looking for, particularly low cades with sizable zombie population and high cades with sizeable zombie population, neither of which we can currently communicate. Best current options are very dangerous for no cades zombie controlled and dangerous for mostly caded survivor controlled.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::While I agree Matahashi is a troll and the wiki decision making is as broken as democratic politics can be, I don't agree with marking everything as very dangerous. There would need to be a significant survivor population. Maybe make a new color for moderately dangerous but in zombie control? [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::::While I agree Matahashi is a troll and the wiki decision making is as broken as democratic politics can be, I don't agree with marking everything as very dangerous. There would need to be a significant survivor population. Maybe make a new color for moderately dangerous but in zombie control? [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::::I'd just give it a number system, with pretty little icons and color coding. Scale of 0-10 for each statistic - 0/0/0 is a blacked-out ruin devoid of movement, 0/0/10 is all pretty but uninhabited (which is what most of the map is, let's be real), 10/10/0 is where there's active fighting. --{{User:Dragonshardz/dragonshardz}} {{Goonsig|Dragonshardz}} 19:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td></tr>
</table>Dragonshardzhttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428117&oldid=prevZPatriot: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2023-12-18T21:47:53Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 21:47, 18 December 2023</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l107">Line 107:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 107:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::There was apparently discussion on Discord on the "Intact" level in addition to what was written on the wiki. A good way to test whether there is consensus after discussion is to implement the changes and see what happens. In Bob's case, the changes did not provoke dissent and many members of the wiki have used the Intact level in the following years. In your case, changes have been reverted within the day, so it does not appear that the changes have consensus. It could be that people are not interested in changing the system at all, or they just don't agree with these specific proposed changes. Personally, my preferred system is something that captures three things in an unbiased way: (1) survivor numbers, (2) zombie numbers, and (3) infrastructure (i.e., 'cades, ruins, lighting). But the main issue to overcome in implementing this is finding a way to retain the at-a-glance simplicity with the current design. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 03:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::There was apparently discussion on Discord on the "Intact" level in addition to what was written on the wiki. A good way to test whether there is consensus after discussion is to implement the changes and see what happens. In Bob's case, the changes did not provoke dissent and many members of the wiki have used the Intact level in the following years. In your case, changes have been reverted within the day, so it does not appear that the changes have consensus. It could be that people are not interested in changing the system at all, or they just don't agree with these specific proposed changes. Personally, my preferred system is something that captures three things in an unbiased way: (1) survivor numbers, (2) zombie numbers, and (3) infrastructure (i.e., 'cades, ruins, lighting). But the main issue to overcome in implementing this is finding a way to retain the at-a-glance simplicity with the current design. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 03:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::The revert was made out of ignorance and then spite. If your requirement is unanimity, certainly we should not include the voice whose only contribution to the wiki is to harass other people. While I am happy to explore and try to solidify a proposal that meets your desires, it is clear that a full revamp will be much harder to reach consensus on, so I'd like to focus on what can be tweaked in this proposal to make it more agreeable. Dead and Active do in fact communicate some of the info you are looking for, particularly low cades with sizable zombie population and high cades with sizeable zombie population, neither of which we can currently communicate. Best current options are very dangerous for no cades zombie controlled and dangerous for mostly caded survivor controlled.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::The revert was made out of ignorance and then spite. If your requirement is unanimity, certainly we should not include the voice whose only contribution to the wiki is to harass other people. While I am happy to explore and try to solidify a proposal that meets your desires, it is clear that a full revamp will be much harder to reach consensus on, so I'd like to focus on what can be tweaked in this proposal to make it more agreeable. Dead and Active do in fact communicate some of the info you are looking for, particularly low cades with sizable zombie population and high cades with sizeable zombie population, neither of which we can currently communicate. Best current options are very dangerous for no cades zombie controlled and dangerous for mostly caded survivor controlled.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::::While I agree Matahashi is a troll and the wiki decision making is as broken as democratic politics can be, I don't agree with marking everything as very dangerous. There would need to be a significant survivor population. Maybe make a new color for moderately dangerous but in zombie control? [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td></tr>
</table>ZPatriothttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428100&oldid=prevMrMap: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2023-12-17T07:07:08Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<col class="diff-marker" />
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 07:07, 17 December 2023</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l106">Line 106:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 106:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::Do you have a specific counter proposal other then going to a binary active/inactive, which you seem to also be against due to the loss of info? Incremental changes seem to be the only thing that works here, we have ruined/caded while devoid of players, but we don't have ruined/caded with active combat. As you say, its all survivor point of view with no indication of cade status. What do we need to arrive at consensus? When bob made the proposal for intact on April 11th, he waited until the 14th when he bumped discussion and one person responded. Then on the 18th he made the changes. Currently we have an "I'm not sure" a "Yes" and a "No" vote from someone whose sole contribution to the wiki is to revert other people's updates. I'd argue that vote is not in good faith, that they are not actually evaluating the merits of the proposal, and are jumping to conclusions based on bias, but whatever. We have a vote from The Dead (ZPatriot) and we have a vote from Soldiers of Crossman (Matahashi), so I think we should consider them team representatives, instead of getting into some pissing contest to see who can recruit the most members of their team to dog pile the vote. As the only other person engaging in the discussion, it seems like you have the tie breaking vote. Or maybe we need to get bob in here to give it an eval/pov? {{unsigned|MrMap|21:42, 15 December 2023}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::Do you have a specific counter proposal other then going to a binary active/inactive, which you seem to also be against due to the loss of info? Incremental changes seem to be the only thing that works here, we have ruined/caded while devoid of players, but we don't have ruined/caded with active combat. As you say, its all survivor point of view with no indication of cade status. What do we need to arrive at consensus? When bob made the proposal for intact on April 11th, he waited until the 14th when he bumped discussion and one person responded. Then on the 18th he made the changes. Currently we have an "I'm not sure" a "Yes" and a "No" vote from someone whose sole contribution to the wiki is to revert other people's updates. I'd argue that vote is not in good faith, that they are not actually evaluating the merits of the proposal, and are jumping to conclusions based on bias, but whatever. We have a vote from The Dead (ZPatriot) and we have a vote from Soldiers of Crossman (Matahashi), so I think we should consider them team representatives, instead of getting into some pissing contest to see who can recruit the most members of their team to dog pile the vote. As the only other person engaging in the discussion, it seems like you have the tie breaking vote. Or maybe we need to get bob in here to give it an eval/pov? {{unsigned|MrMap|21:42, 15 December 2023}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::There was apparently discussion on Discord on the "Intact" level in addition to what was written on the wiki. A good way to test whether there is consensus after discussion is to implement the changes and see what happens. In Bob's case, the changes did not provoke dissent and many members of the wiki have used the Intact level in the following years. In your case, changes have been reverted within the day, so it does not appear that the changes have consensus. It could be that people are not interested in changing the system at all, or they just don't agree with these specific proposed changes. Personally, my preferred system is something that captures three things in an unbiased way: (1) survivor numbers, (2) zombie numbers, and (3) infrastructure (i.e., 'cades, ruins, lighting). But the main issue to overcome in implementing this is finding a way to retain the at-a-glance simplicity with the current design. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 03:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::::There was apparently discussion on Discord on the "Intact" level in addition to what was written on the wiki. A good way to test whether there is consensus after discussion is to implement the changes and see what happens. In Bob's case, the changes did not provoke dissent and many members of the wiki have used the Intact level in the following years. In your case, changes have been reverted within the day, so it does not appear that the changes have consensus. It could be that people are not interested in changing the system at all, or they just don't agree with these specific proposed changes. Personally, my preferred system is something that captures three things in an unbiased way: (1) survivor numbers, (2) zombie numbers, and (3) infrastructure (i.e., 'cades, ruins, lighting). But the main issue to overcome in implementing this is finding a way to retain the at-a-glance simplicity with the current design. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 03:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::::::The revert was made out of ignorance and then spite. If your requirement is unanimity, certainly we should not include the voice whose only contribution to the wiki is to harass other people. While I am happy to explore and try to solidify a proposal that meets your desires, it is clear that a full revamp will be much harder to reach consensus on, so I'd like to focus on what can be tweaked in this proposal to make it more agreeable. Dead and Active do in fact communicate some of the info you are looking for, particularly low cades with sizable zombie population and high cades with sizeable zombie population, neither of which we can currently communicate. Best current options are very dangerous for no cades zombie controlled and dangerous for mostly caded survivor controlled.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td></tr>
</table>MrMaphttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428091&oldid=prevA Helpful Little Gnome: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2023-12-16T03:42:15Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 03:42, 16 December 2023</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l104">Line 104:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 104:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::How about you contribute something constructive? I spent a long time writing up a comprehensive proposal explaining why these new colors are needed. The current colors do not properly communicate the situation on the ground. A ghost town is empty, but there are several suburbs that are ruined but not empty. Safe typically has minimal to no break ins, but there are several suburbs that are clearly in survivor control but have an active tug of war. Your conspiracy theories and animosity are not valid arguments nor productive discussion. {{unsigned|MrMap|18:09, 14 December 2023}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::How about you contribute something constructive? I spent a long time writing up a comprehensive proposal explaining why these new colors are needed. The current colors do not properly communicate the situation on the ground. A ghost town is empty, but there are several suburbs that are ruined but not empty. Safe typically has minimal to no break ins, but there are several suburbs that are clearly in survivor control but have an active tug of war. Your conspiracy theories and animosity are not valid arguments nor productive discussion. {{unsigned|MrMap|18:09, 14 December 2023}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::Hello. There is no consensus to change the Suburb danger scheme, so don't input your own version of the danger statuses. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::Hello. There is no consensus to change the Suburb danger scheme, so don't input your own version of the danger statuses. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::Do you have a specific counter proposal other then going to a binary active/inactive, which you seem to also be against due to the loss of info? Incremental changes seem to be the only thing that works here, we have ruined/caded while devoid of players, but we don't have ruined/caded with active combat. As you say, its all survivor point of view with no indication of cade status. What do we need to arrive at consensus? When bob made the proposal for intact on April 11th, he waited until the 14th when he bumped discussion and one person responded. Then on the 18th he made the changes. Currently we have an "I'm not sure" a "Yes" and a "No" vote from someone whose sole contribution to the wiki is to revert other people's updates. I'd argue that vote is not in good faith, that they are not actually evaluating the merits of the proposal, and are jumping to conclusions based on bias, but whatever. We have a vote from The Dead (ZPatriot) and we have a vote from Soldiers of Crossman (Matahashi), so I think we should consider them team representatives, instead of getting into some pissing contest to see who can recruit the most members of their team to dog pile the vote. As the only other person engaging in the discussion, it seems like you have the tie breaking vote. Or maybe we need to get bob in here to give it an eval/pov?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::::Do you have a specific counter proposal other then going to a binary active/inactive, which you seem to also be against due to the loss of info? Incremental changes seem to be the only thing that works here, we have ruined/caded while devoid of players, but we don't have ruined/caded with active combat. As you say, its all survivor point of view with no indication of cade status. What do we need to arrive at consensus? When bob made the proposal for intact on April 11th, he waited until the 14th when he bumped discussion and one person responded. Then on the 18th he made the changes. Currently we have an "I'm not sure" a "Yes" and a "No" vote from someone whose sole contribution to the wiki is to revert other people's updates. I'd argue that vote is not in good faith, that they are not actually evaluating the merits of the proposal, and are jumping to conclusions based on bias, but whatever. We have a vote from The Dead (ZPatriot) and we have a vote from Soldiers of Crossman (Matahashi), so I think we should consider them team representatives, instead of getting into some pissing contest to see who can recruit the most members of their team to dog pile the vote. As the only other person engaging in the discussion, it seems like you have the tie breaking vote. Or maybe we need to get bob in here to give it an eval/pov? <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{unsigned|MrMap|21:42, 15 December 2023}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::::::There was apparently discussion on Discord on the "Intact" level in addition to what was written on the wiki. A good way to test whether there is consensus after discussion is to implement the changes and see what happens. In Bob's case, the changes did not provoke dissent and many members of the wiki have used the Intact level in the following years. In your case, changes have been reverted within the day, so it does not appear that the changes have consensus. It could be that people are not interested in changing the system at all, or they just don't agree with these specific proposed changes. Personally, my preferred system is something that captures three things in an unbiased way: (1) survivor numbers, (2) zombie numbers, and (3) infrastructure (i.e., 'cades, ruins, lighting). But the main issue to overcome in implementing this is finding a way to retain the at-a-glance simplicity with the current design. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 03:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td></tr>
</table>A Helpful Little Gnomehttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428090&oldid=prevMrMap: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2023-12-15T21:42:16Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 21:42, 15 December 2023</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l104">Line 104:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 104:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::How about you contribute something constructive? I spent a long time writing up a comprehensive proposal explaining why these new colors are needed. The current colors do not properly communicate the situation on the ground. A ghost town is empty, but there are several suburbs that are ruined but not empty. Safe typically has minimal to no break ins, but there are several suburbs that are clearly in survivor control but have an active tug of war. Your conspiracy theories and animosity are not valid arguments nor productive discussion. {{unsigned|MrMap|18:09, 14 December 2023}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::How about you contribute something constructive? I spent a long time writing up a comprehensive proposal explaining why these new colors are needed. The current colors do not properly communicate the situation on the ground. A ghost town is empty, but there are several suburbs that are ruined but not empty. Safe typically has minimal to no break ins, but there are several suburbs that are clearly in survivor control but have an active tug of war. Your conspiracy theories and animosity are not valid arguments nor productive discussion. {{unsigned|MrMap|18:09, 14 December 2023}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::Hello. There is no consensus to change the Suburb danger scheme, so don't input your own version of the danger statuses. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::::Hello. There is no consensus to change the Suburb danger scheme, so don't input your own version of the danger statuses. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::::Do you have a specific counter proposal other then going to a binary active/inactive, which you seem to also be against due to the loss of info? Incremental changes seem to be the only thing that works here, we have ruined/caded while devoid of players, but we don't have ruined/caded with active combat. As you say, its all survivor point of view with no indication of cade status. What do we need to arrive at consensus? When bob made the proposal for intact on April 11th, he waited until the 14th when he bumped discussion and one person responded. Then on the 18th he made the changes. Currently we have an "I'm not sure" a "Yes" and a "No" vote from someone whose sole contribution to the wiki is to revert other people's updates. I'd argue that vote is not in good faith, that they are not actually evaluating the merits of the proposal, and are jumping to conclusions based on bias, but whatever. We have a vote from The Dead (ZPatriot) and we have a vote from Soldiers of Crossman (Matahashi), so I think we should consider them team representatives, instead of getting into some pissing contest to see who can recruit the most members of their team to dog pile the vote. As the only other person engaging in the discussion, it seems like you have the tie breaking vote. Or maybe we need to get bob in here to give it an eval/pov?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td></tr>
</table>MrMaphttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428086&oldid=prevA Helpful Little Gnome: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2023-12-15T16:53:22Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:53, 15 December 2023</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l102">Line 102:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 102:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::I like the idea on the new colors, not sold on the descriptions. Dead is Safe for Zombies (Easy to stand back up and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Survivors (Assuming they repair a building). Active is Safe for Survivors (Easy to get a revive and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Zombies (Assuming they break into a building). -- [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::I like the idea on the new colors, not sold on the descriptions. Dead is Safe for Zombies (Easy to stand back up and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Survivors (Assuming they repair a building). Active is Safe for Survivors (Easy to get a revive and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Zombies (Assuming they break into a building). -- [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Theres 0 reason to add new danger levels to the map other than you just wanting a special tag for you and your group to throw around. Dunnel Hills is indeed a ghost town until you decide to log in your inactive alts because someone did something major. -[[User:Matahashi|Matahashi]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Theres 0 reason to add new danger levels to the map other than you just wanting a special tag for you and your group to throw around. Dunnel Hills is indeed a ghost town until you decide to log in your inactive alts because someone did something major. -[[User:Matahashi|Matahashi]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::How about you contribute something constructive? I spent a long time writing up a comprehensive proposal explaining why these new colors are needed. The current colors do not properly communicate the situation on the ground. A ghost town is empty, but there are several suburbs that are ruined but not empty. Safe typically has minimal to no break ins, but there are several suburbs that are clearly in survivor control but have an active tug of war. Your conspiracy theories and animosity are not valid arguments nor productive discussion.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::::How about you contribute something constructive? I spent a long time writing up a comprehensive proposal explaining why these new colors are needed. The current colors do not properly communicate the situation on the ground. A ghost town is empty, but there are several suburbs that are ruined but not empty. Safe typically has minimal to no break ins, but there are several suburbs that are clearly in survivor control but have an active tug of war. Your conspiracy theories and animosity are not valid arguments nor productive discussion. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{unsigned|MrMap|18:09, 14 December 2023}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::::::Hello. There is no consensus to change the Suburb danger scheme, so don't input your own version of the danger statuses. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 16:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td></tr>
</table>A Helpful Little Gnomehttps://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Talk:Suburb&diff=2428068&oldid=prevMrMap: /* Proposal for Active and Dead */2023-12-14T18:09:20Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proposal for Active and Dead</span></span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 18:09, 14 December 2023</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::I like the idea on the new colors, not sold on the descriptions. Dead is Safe for Zombies (Easy to stand back up and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Survivors (Assuming they repair a building). Active is Safe for Survivors (Easy to get a revive and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Zombies (Assuming they break into a building). -- [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:::I like the idea on the new colors, not sold on the descriptions. Dead is Safe for Zombies (Easy to stand back up and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Survivors (Assuming they repair a building). Active is Safe for Survivors (Easy to get a revive and reclaim buildings), Very Dangerous for Zombies (Assuming they break into a building). -- [[User:ZPatriot|ZPatriot]] ([[User talk:ZPatriot|talk]])</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Theres 0 reason to add new danger levels to the map other than you just wanting a special tag for you and your group to throw around. Dunnel Hills is indeed a ghost town until you decide to log in your inactive alts because someone did something major. -[[User:Matahashi|Matahashi]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::::Theres 0 reason to add new danger levels to the map other than you just wanting a special tag for you and your group to throw around. Dunnel Hills is indeed a ghost town until you decide to log in your inactive alts because someone did something major. -[[User:Matahashi|Matahashi]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:::::How about you contribute something constructive? I spent a long time writing up a comprehensive proposal explaining why these new colors are needed. The current colors do not properly communicate the situation on the ground. A ghost town is empty, but there are several suburbs that are ruined but not empty. Safe typically has minimal to no break ins, but there are several suburbs that are clearly in survivor control but have an active tug of war. Your conspiracy theories and animosity are not valid arguments nor productive discussion.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Other Maps==</div></td></tr>
</table>MrMap