UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/Cheveyo vs Rosslessness

Initial Discussion

Rosslessness is personally attacking me because he claims I called him a zerger in game which I never did. Now he has created a user page, user:rosslessness/Hmm, to personally attack me. It seems that he is on a witch hunt and that this is not going to stop. I would like to have the page deleted as this is personal. I believe that he has crossed the line and he keeps asking questions about my personal life. This is starting to head towards not only arbitration, but something legal. This is uncalled for and needs to stop. I have gave him an explanation and he can believe it or not. But he needs to move on. I am tired of this. And this is not conduct of someone that is needed here. If it continues, I would suggest banning him permanently. Because he is creating more problems than this is worth. --Cheveyo 09:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I accept this case. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 09:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

'This is starting to head towards not only arbitration, but something legal.' Is that an implied threat to sue there? Fucking hilarious. As for banning him permanently, if that's the extent of your understanding of wiki procedure then you're going to spend much of this case getting reamed just as hard as you did when Rosslessness posted his case. My advice, as both a wiki user and the Zerg List Moderator who judged your case, is to drop this, separate your alts and get on with playing the game fairly. --Papa Moloch 09:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Any particular arbiter you'd like? --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 09:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I offer to arbitrate. I believe it's an interesting case, one I wouldn't mind to participate in. --Thadeous Oakley 10:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

As the case in point, relates to a page that lists evidence that said person is zerging. I do not feel the arbitrator himself should be zerg listed (no offense Thad, this isn't anything against you, its the issue at hand) -- 

•   Timmah!  

•   Talk  

10:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Fwa, that shitty zerg case Hali made against me is so old. Besides, this case actually isn't about whether Cheveyo zergs or not, this is about whether Ross can accuse him of it. This because Chev is merely asking for the page deletion. --Thadeous Oakley 10:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Regardless by default of your listing your more inclined to vote for Cheveyo's side of said things. In fact did you not request User:Haliman delete that page he had up on UBCS's series of pages. It was done, as this most likely will too, but regardless your more inclined (or at least we must assume you are) to side of User:Cheveyo -- 

•   Timmah!  

•   Talk  

00:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I also offer to arbitrate. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 10:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Offering to arbitrate.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 12:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll let Chev offer his thoughts on who arbitrates. In the meantime, as the page is in dispute, does someone want to protect its talk page? As theres a lot of discussion there. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 13:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that common sense dictates it shouldn't need protection. The rule is that you preserve it in the case of a contested edit, but in this case, it’s the existence of the page itself that's in dispute, so it doesn't matter what state it's preserved in (within reason, I should think). —Aichon— 14:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I also offer to arbitrate this case. -- Adward  16:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I try and stay away from wiki-drama (except for DS, which I feel responsible for, for some reason), barely know Rosslessness, and am familiar with the page in question. I also happen to consider myself a bastion of impartiality, but that's a personal belief. I volunteer. Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 22:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Any arbitrater would be fine with me. I can handle an educated discussion. WHat I cannot take is someone who is on a personal vendetta. Someone who uses profanity. And someone who has pushed this matter farther than it ever needed to go. He could of made his point and I could have made mine. That would have been fine. But he has crossed the line. And he just wants to push and push. Members of his group are asking where I live and what I do. They are invading my personal real life. I never asked him where he lives and what he does. All I am asking is for the page to be deleted. That is all. It is a personal attack. And Rosslessness should be looked at for his behaviour on this user page as it is not proper. It is one thing to have an argument. It is another to attack someone personally.--Cheveyo 02:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not a personal attack. It's a page that details the reasons and evidence as to why Ross thinks you're a zerg. It's Ross's page, stating Ross's opinion and doesn't reveal any personal details. Suck it up -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 08:21 22 January 2010 (BST)

As Boxy. User pages are the "property" of the user, and barring stuff that goes against the TOU, they can post whatever the hell they want there. As Boxy has said, change your ways, or suck it up. Linkthewindow  Talk  13:15, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe The Colonel would be a fair arbitrater that both sides could agree on.--Cheveyo 02:10, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

So do I. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 08:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

A-R-B-I-T-R-A-T-O-R. I'm tired of people slaughtering this word. >:/ --ZsL 20:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it arbiter? 18:26, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

That works too. Arbiter and arbitrator are mostly the same thing. --ZsL 16:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Wait...wut?. Slow your roles now! That was not me posting to say I'd arby, that was me suggesting Thad not be it due to past history with pages like that. ps. Chevy you don't wanna know my personal opinion on said matter because I find Ross went through a lot of hard work to compile that stuff and as such, I would have him keep it, thus why I didn't offer, nor am I......HELL NO! -- 

•   Timmah!  

•   Talk  

08:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Just because you have an opinion, doesn't make you an unfit arbitrator -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:34 22 January 2010 (BST)

In fact, your reluctance to accept probably means you're one of the best choices that Chev could make, short of picking an obvious zeug lover -- boxy ^{talk • teh rulz} 09:39 22 January 2010 (BST)

Oh. Oops. Look like we both missed that. Looks like chev will have to choose again. Any other people want to volunteer?--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 09:13, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I will add a disclaimer to my offer to arbitrate. Any/all rulings made by me on this case (if selected, of course) will be based on whether or not this page constitutes a "personal attack" and whether or not it actually violates any rules here on the wiki. Any other content on the pages that falls outside of those two categories will be ignored. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 09:39, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Someone pick Maeverick and get this show on the road. --_GANG Giles Sednik _CAPD 11:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind Mav. if Chev confirms. --Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay Maverick, you're the one. I want to also say that if you feel that it is me that is zerging, I will disband the Blackhawk Nation and tell everyone to go their separate ways. If I did that, I would expect all the members in question to be dropped off the zerger list as well. They will all be told to go their separate ways and the BHN will close up shop. Let me know what you think. I am offering an easy resolution with no drama. I don't want to be known as a zerger and will do this if it is agreed on and the page in question is deleted as well.--Cheveyo 13:57, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The characters will not be removed from the Zerg List until either all the players prove that that are separate individuals, or you admit that you were zerging and provide documentary proof that you have separated the characters. --Papa Moloch 14:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

I am offering an easy solution. Yet, it is people like you who are negative and seem to have no common sense. Open your mind a little. --Cheveyo 14:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

The Zerg List has nothing to do with the wiki, is not beholden to its processes and has its own rules. Further, we do not require an easy solution, as we are not listed as cheats: You are and if you want to be removed from our list then you need to comply with our rules. --Papa Moloch 15:25, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

As an arbiter I have no control over the Zerge List--it isn't even a part of this wiki. However, I will get everything set up for this case within the next 24 hours. In the meantime I suggest both parties prepare your opening arguments, keeping my disclaimer in mind. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 14:47, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Trying to force Ross to take down information in his own userspace- be it true, untrue, and for the purpose of being informative or inflammatory, either/or, is a joke. What Ross has done so far related to this case is within his right on the wiki, but if Cheveyo needs such a ruling to happen for him to stop his retaliation to Ross' actions then let it be so. The only common ground I could see happening here between the two parties is ye olde restraining order, but let's see how things go. --

 

 

 

 

13:58, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, that's what I thought when i saw this case.-- Adward  18:44, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Case Proper

Summary

Rosslessness created a page in his user space outlining evidence for why he thinks Cheveyo is guilty of zerging. Discussion on the talk page contributed to what he sees as a personal attack. Both parties have agreed to arbitration and have mutually selected Maverick as arbitrator.

I am assuming you both know the drill, but just so we are clear: This case is solely based upon whether or not the page in question constitutes a personal attack on the defendant. Any allegations made there are beyond the scope of both Arbitration and this wiki. That being said, you may both post your opening arguments, and then we will move on. As usual, keep your comments in your own section and do not respond to the other party in your opening arguments. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 01:36, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Opening Arguments

Cheveyo

Ross is making a personal attack against me. And I don't really understand the reason as it seems quite obvious that he is a zerger himself. He claims that I tagged buildings saying he is a zerger. I can truthfully say that I did no such thing. But instead of asking me about it. He decided to launch a personal attack. It escalated to the point that profanity started to be used and threats were being thrown around. I have since lost the desire to run a group and I have disbanded the Blackhawk Nation. He has made playing the game a nuisance. I am tired of the personal attacks. I just want him to delete the page in question that is all.--Cheveyo 05:29, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Rosslessness

Hello Everyone.

I'd like to point out a few things about chevs statement, and then I'll discuss my own opening statement.

Firstly, the page in question isn't a personal attack. Its me writing that I believe that 11 members of the blackhawk nation are being controlled by the same person. You could call it an attack on the group. The only way its personal is if all the alts were controlled by chev.

"profanity started to be used and threats were being thrown around."

If you care to point me in the direction of any single comment I've made that counts as hostile, or a threat, Ill be glad to remove it. In fact the only claims I've made are that I suspect individuals of zerging.

This confuses me. The only thing I appear to have done is to call you a zerger. Is that what you think is the "personal attack"?

But that can't be right, because of this statement.

"And I don't really understand the reason as it seems quite obvious that he is a zerger himself."

Why do you feel its acceptable to call me a zerger, whilst at the same time attempting to remove a page in which I call you a zerger?

You also claim to have done nothing in game to suggest I zerg. Yet everyday, I see tagging with your ... three ... fullstop ... style, and today even heard about this.

As for the page itself, User:Rosslessness/Hmm. I have no intention of deleting it.

UDWiki:Specific Case Editing Guidelines state;

said:

It has been explicitly noted that User: and User talk: pages are the sole property of that particular user (so, User:Odd Starter and User talk:Odd Starter are both sole property of Odd Starter). As such, Users are free to do whatever they wish to their user pages, including complete wiping of any comments, removal of material they do not like, etc, though it is considered poor form to do this, and it is recommended that users create archive subpages in which to store dead conversation. Further, Users may request the deletion of their User and User talk pages, or any subpages therein.

In addition to this previous abitration rulings support the idea that we can write what we want about users on pages we own. The most recent example being the case AegisTyra vs Dhavid Grohl

Pages being created on the wiki to provide evidence of zerging is nothing new. this being the most comprehensive example.

However. I am more than willing to take some steps to reduce the publicity of the page.

I am more than happy to.

• Remove the link from my sig.
• Remove any suggestion that you are responsible for any graffiti from the page in question.
• Have both the page itself and its talk page protected, so no further comments be added.
• Refrain from commenting on both cheveyo's talk page and group page for any length of time.
• Add a section to the top of the page, mentioning that chev denies all claims and has taken me to arbitration as a result
• If chev backs up his claims that I am zerging with any Proof, I am willing to make a link to the page where he provides this proof part of my sig for an amount of time that Maverick Farrant deems neccessary.

Questions

Answer all questions directly and completely. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 21:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheveyo

What EXACTLY was the personal attack? You say there was a "personal attack" but you don't identify what exactly that was.--Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 21:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

You say profanity and threats were made against you. After looking at the page and its talk page I only see one user who used profanity (Billy Forks), and none of the replies by Rosslessness are threats (unless I missed something). Thus, has Rosslessness made any threats to your person? If yes, I want examples. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 21:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

It is true that Ross has never used profanity against me. But it feels like this is kind of a witch hunt. At the time this happened, I had never tagged anything anywhere about him when he assumed it was me. I had never accused him of being a zerger when he claims that is the reason he started this, even though it appears that many people do. It seems to me that he assumed it was me and immediately went after me without trying to find out who really did it. But that is beside the point. Ross is attacking my character and too many personal questions are being asked.

said:

Another Response Thanks Chev. You've been teaching the same children English for three years? Thats strange. Their English isn't good, so they copy the style of the leader? really. After three years of tutelage? Are you really telling me that your students were logging on, one after another between 8.46pm, and 9.35 pm On a sunday night ? Thats a pretty commited school you have there. --Massive Zerging? -Rosslessness -Wants a new city 11% 13:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I never said that I taught the same kids for three years in a row. That was an assumption on his part. My first year in Korea I taught at an institute where I had students from kindergarten to adult. Some of them were at the intermediate level and some would just stare at you when you said "hello." After that I spent one year in a boy's middle school in the countryside and the level of English was quite low. They basically just tried to copy the teacher. That didn't mean that they really understood anything. And the next three years I taught at a technical college. Students who go to a technical college do not have the best ability. Some of them cannot understand anything at all. And some of them are intermediate at best. I only taught each class for one semester and then I got new students for the next semester. So, I only taught them for a maximum of 5 months at a time with class only being one and a half hours a week. And the reason for them logging in one after another could possibly be due to the fact that they live in a dorm and share the same computer room. But once again assumptions were made.--Cheveyo 11:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You don't have to try and defend against the allegations here. As has been stated multiple times, (1)for purposes of this arbitration whether or not either of you zerg is irrelevant, and (2)you didn't answer the question.

What EXACTLY was the personal attack? Was it the insinuation that you are a zerg, or the insinuation that you are responsible for the graffiti? Or are the slightly personal questions (that you are certainly in no way obligated to answer) the attack? Also, since you didn't provide any evidence of threats made I will assume that there were none. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 11:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It is mainly the fact that he wanted personal information from me and the fact that he seems to think that I was the one who was doing the graffiti at that time. And the fact that he continued to come after me after making a point. I just believe he has made his point and it is time to move on. I already disbanded the BHN and everyone has been sent their separate ways. I don't know what else he wants from me.--Cheveyo 10:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Rosslessness

What was your initial impetus for creating the page? --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 21:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The pages creation was one of a series of steps. Initial discussions on the forum led to three separate topics on the blackhawk nation. Within these were several highlighted similarities in typing style, screen shots, and attack times. Some people focussed on the ingame stuff, others on the forum similarities.

As the case became increasingly complex and the sections longer, I felt it was sensible to create a central space where images, screenshots and links to forums could all be linked in one space. The wiki, with its image hosting and ability to show external links was the best choice. Also with both chev and the larger UD community using the site, it seems the best place to post allegations. This way I could publicly challenge chev, and let other people point out any flaws in the arguments.

Can I respond to chev's comments here? The question was asked, not because I wanted to know about the teaching itself, but to highlight a point I had made. The same characters had logged in regularly since the group was formed in 2008, yet the children you taught were different. The only way I could explain this without resorting to a zerging accusation was that the children, at the differing schools had all passed their passwords on to the new children, both in game and on the forum. I don't understand why they didn't create new log ins and characters.

as a point of clarification, I'd just like to add, the concessions I made in my opening statement were illustrative, I do not intend to do them as a matter of course, only if ordered to by Mav.

Thanks

--Rosslessness^{Want a Location Image?} 11:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Ruling

Within 24 hours pending Cheveyo's response to my follow-up question. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 09:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)