UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/Finis Valorum vs Saromu

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Finis Valorum vs. Saromu

This is something simple: an edit conflict on the The Northeastern War page. Saromu insists on listing me (a single player) as a separate faction in a war I was never involved in.--Luke Skywalker 14:35, 31 May 2008 (BST)

I'll accept only AnimeSucks as Arbitatortot if you truly want to take this to Arby's, FaIco. --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 14:37, 31 May 2008 (BST)

AnimeSucks is unacceptable.--Luke Skywalker 14:48, 31 May 2008 (BST)

Then I refuse any other Arbitatortots. So according to the previous case, this is closed. Thank you. --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 14:57, 31 May 2008 (BST)

That's fine with me. I rejected AnimeSucks because he's biased and his past arbitration experience is far from encouraging. As long as that page is unprotected I will be undoing your edits myself without further arbitration requests.--Luke Skywalker 15:07, 31 May 2008 (BST)

No, it remains protected until something is settled on. You refused to settle it when I offered AnimeSucks. You are being stubborn. I offered to help you understand why you are involved but you decided to blank it. Several times actually. As the Defendent I can have this case thrown out if I do not accept any other Arbitatortot. You have a choice, throw out your case and have the page protected forever (or until the unprotect it when I ask and then have you brought up on vandalism because you refused Arby's to settle it) OR you can accept AnimeSucks, someone who is a witness and saw this action firsthand. Take your pick, buddy. --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 15:18, 31 May 2008 (BST)

Actually, you're the stubborn one limiting all your "Arbitatortot" options to a single one.--Luke Skywalker

If sonny is willing to lift his no peoples allowed, id offer to arbitrate in my spare time. Given my well known stance on doing the right thing (Despite numerous slanders) and my very vocal opposition to the abuse of arbitration powers, i think id be an ideal choice to examine the case based on the facts and not based on biases. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 15:37, 31 May 2008 (BST)

You're fine with me.--Luke Skywalker 15:47, 31 May 2008 (BST)

Fine. Let's get this thing on. --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 16:45, 31 May 2008 (BST)

Opening statements

Statement from the arbitrator

Ground rules. Im going to be ruling this based on evidence and the strength of the arguments you make. Please try to avoid fallacious reasoning.

Feel free to insult your opponent but dont try to do name calling as support for an argument, or as an argument in itself. I will not be judging based on who flames best or most. That said, flaming does decrease the signal to noise ratio in your postings and should be avoided if possible.

You will each be given an opportunity to respond to the points made by each other, and i will let it go on until such time as i am convinced there is nothing more to be said, so there is really no benefit in being the last to post.

Ill say this right out now. Since this dispute concerns the content of this page, there will be absolutely no restrictions on personal interaction between the two of you, and the result will only determine what goes on the page.

Please do attempt to be thorough in your arguments and explainations. The little details do matter --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 17:05, 31 May 2008 (BST)

Finis Valorum

As I've already said, this is quite a simple case. In portraying the conflict, Saromu lists me as a separate faction leading a separate war. My arguments:

• Placing single players in infobox group sections is simply preposterous. If Saromu thinks I played a significant role in the conflict, the appropriate place to list me would've been the commanders section.
• I was not involved in the mentioned Northeastern War. According to Saromu, the war also involved a "Finis vs Anti-Zergs" phase. AFAIK, this has to do with the fact that I've killed Anime, Saromu's buddy, several times in a row in-game. Anime consequently got butthurt and organized a so-called zerg hunt. I just laughed and continued to kill him. He was the only "anti-zerg force" I engaged during this "war", hardly a large scale conflict. Saromu attempts to justify his edits in the following confusing manner: You're included in the war because ZHU and the Dribbling Beavers are in the war hunting you and only you. So for him war is merely a matter of intent, regardless of reification. Not to mention war against one individual is in the very least an amusing notion.
• Of course, the main reasoning behind Saromu's edits is the false assumption that I somehow use a large number of alts (assumption spawned from a slander directed against me by a hostile group and that was scattered through questionable metagaming environments such as Brainstock or Resensitized). But, essentially, it's completely erroneous premise.--Luke Skywalker 12:49, 1 June 2008 (BST)

Saromu

This case is simple. There is no opinion, there is no side. There's only the truth. The Northeast War was created to encompass the three part war going on in the NE. The PKers vs. Survivors, Gibsonton people vs. Gibsonton Nationals, and the Zerg Hunt vs. Finis and his many accused zergs. I'm not going to argue that Finis is a zerg because I don't know and I don't care. I do know that there is a hunt going after him in the NE as seen here. Finis may not want to be part of the war but he is. I'm sure Belgium didn't want to be part of WWII but it did so it got attacked. Finis may very well be innocent of zerg charges, I'm not here to argue that, but he is involved in this war because he's being targetted, named, and killed. It doesn't matter how many people he killed, actually it does because it bolsters the fact that he's involved, what does matter is his involvement. Finis argues he's not involved and thus should not be listed on the page but admits right now that he is fighting. There is no argument over who won or who's at fault. We're arguing if Finis is involved and he is.

I'm sorry that there is not a lot of evidence here but you do not need any to prove this point. He's involved, plai nand simple. But for al lshits and giggles here's links to where he is involved:

• Zerg Hunt I.5: Gamewide Teabag Finis Operation
• zerg thread
• zerg list again
• According to Saromu, the war also involved a "Finis vs Anti-Zergs" phase. AFAIK, this has to do with the fact that I've killed Anime, Saromu's buddy, several times in a row in-game. Anime consequently got butthurt and organized a so-called zerg hunt. - from above where he admits to being hunted.

I am not arguing that Finis is a zerg, just that people say he is and that they are hunting him for it. He is involved in the Northeast War for two reasons:

1. He's being hunted
2. It's in the northeast

Take it how you want. I am not involved in the hunt at all, I am not even a member of either groups involved. I am only involved because I feel the NE at the time had a lot of campaigns going on at once and combining them into one page would be easier than having three seperate pages. (Invasion of Gibsonton, Zerg Hunt 1.5, and GIB). --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 16:17, 1 June 2008 (BST)

Rebuttals

Finis Valorum

First off, a few word about Saromu's evidence. The wiki page he mentioned is purely junk, a curious mix of POV gibberish, libellous allegations presented as truth, OOC and IC fantasies etc. all drawing their origin from several players' hurt ego. The Resensitized links show a user pointing out some players and claiming they are "Finis alts" (obviously, there's no Finis in their evidence). All of this illustrate a certain type of UrbanDead mentality. Some people have a thinking pattern set on "simple". Whenever they deal with an unexpected and complex situation, they cannot understand it unless they mentally simplify it. Thus, it's a whole lot easier for some players/groups to think their attackers or griefers zerg or are zergs. It's nothing new or notable for me.

But, of course, Saromu wants to prove my involvement and by these links he tries to emphasize certain players' intent to hunt me. I completely agree on this matter. It can be argued I'm being hunted. And I'm also in the Northeast. But these chriteria apply to dozens of other peoples in Northeast who had nothing do to with the Gibsonton conflicts, engaged in their own fights (GKers, random PKers, unaffiliated survivors etc). Does this really come down to documenting individual skirmishes, which happen on a daily basis practically anywhere in game? The Imperium must Die coalliton vs. Imperium and the GIB vs. Gibsonton Nationals were large scale conflicts (although I hardly ever heard of the latter) that stand out amongst the common tag games. In contrast to that, I would hardly qualify killing Anime and his butt buddies as a war. During the Rolt Heights War there was a guy, Tiggerman, who killed BAR and was hunted by them. That doesn't mean the Rolt Heights War was a two part war comprising of Tiggermann vs. BAR and Survivors vs. PKer Alliance.

Furthermore, to continue the WWII analogy, this whole deal seems like Germany is declaring its intentions to attack Belgium but attacks Holland instead and claims Holland is Belgium. Because, basically, that's this about. A bunch of people kill other peoples claiming they're me, for reasons I've already explained.--Luke Skywalker 17:09, 3 June 2008 (BST)

Saromu

Finis still wants you to believe that he is not a zerg and that he is not involved. Let him. Yes, let him think that. The Zerg Hunt is going on and it is going on in that area. I created the page for one reason, to combine all PKing conflicts in the area into one page. Finis likes to think that one person is not enough to constitute a war. He's right. This is why this isn't the Finis War, it is the Northeastern War which cosists of Gibsonton Invasion, Gibsonton Independence, and Zerg Hunt. All I did was add part of the Zerg Hunt page to mine. I never finished it, as you can clearly see.

I am sorry that Finis is so upset over it but it seems he's arguing this case because he'd like people to believe that he's not a zerg. I couldn't give a shit. He's the target of the zerg hunt and the zerg hunt is part of this larger war. I call this simple because Finis is blowing this out of proportion and giving it too much importance. If he wants to make an argument against AnimeSucks saying he's not a zerger then fine. This case however is not about me calling him a zerger, but the target of those calling him one.

I'd like to give one example here from real life. During Joe McCarthy's famous red scare he accused many people of being Communists. Finis would be arguing that he's not a Communist. I am not calling him a Communist, just saying that he is being called one by Joe McCarthy. There is a difference between saying someone is a communist and saying someone is being called a communist. Finis needs to learn the difference. --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 20:54, 3 June 2008 (BST)

Comment by the Arbitrator

I said at the start i would be making this decision based on facts, and not based on gut feelings. I am going to stick with this, even though it will mean this runs on longer than usual.

Its becoming increasingly clear that neither side is going to give me all the information i need to do my job (through ignorance, deciet, or whatever), so i am throwing open the floor, so to speak, to allow the leaders (And only them, or their designated spokesperson) of the involved groups in question to post quick summaries of the events that happened there. Since i dont know who these individuals actually are, ill be leaving this for a few days in which i shall be tracking them down and contacting them.

Do not bother referencing other peoples event summaries or calling them wrong.

Meanwhile, Im going to open up an unstructured argument section where Sonny and Finis can argue with each other, and perhaps add some more information to the pile in the same manner as the summaries i hope to obtain. --The Grimch ^{U! E! WAT!} 05:53, 5 June 2008 (BST)

Finis and Sonny

I wish to drop my side of the case. I no longer need the page as it was an alternative to the heavily biased Invasion of Gibsonton page. Since the other page is now unbiased I do not need this one. I will have it deleted once I get everything I want from this page onto the other, with the exception of Finis stuff. Thank you. --Sonny Corleone ^{DORIS MSD pr0n} 16:21, 18 June 2008 (BST)

Case dropped by Sonny

That is all. Apparently people need this pointed out to them in a header. --The Grimch ^{U! E!} 04:39, 20 August 2008 (BST)