UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/Hagnat vs Suicidalangel and Cyberbob240

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hagnat vs suicidalangel and cyberbob240

simple dispute in Urban Dead IRC Channels. #udwiki used to be the official channel for urban dead wiki discussions, but with the creation of #urbandeadwiki this title is now being disputed. Originally, #urbandeadwiki was listed as the alternative chanel, but today suicidal edited the page so that #udwiki was the alternative. I reverted his edit, but cyberbob reverted it back, starting a revert war (shame on u bob, ur a sysop, u should know better).

I would like to settle this dispute quickly: no channel is the official nor the alternate, both channels are simply listed as "channel for urban dead wiki discussion", as proposed by J3D. --People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 15:10, 8 July 2009 (BST)

DDR's still in the process of deciding what the 'pre edit war' state is. I think the way link had it is probably the best.--xoxo 15:12, 8 July 2009 (BST)
except that link's edit linked both channels to the same location. I am fine with this, but i liked yours better (each channel on its own line) --People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 15:16, 8 July 2009 (BST)
I nominate DDR as arbitrator. --Cyberbob 15:14, 8 July 2009 (BST)
i am fine with him --People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 15:16, 8 July 2009 (BST)

I accept DDR. Case commences now.--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 17:00, 8 July 2009 (BST)

Round 1

Alright, let's get started. This will be Round 1, each side gets an argument (SA and Bob getting both chances to make a statement, of course), and there will be a small gap before Round 2, before a finishing round for summaries and conclusions. Let's keep this simple, if either side wants further rounds to be included to extend the length of the arbies case, I may grant it if I deem it necessary, but for now, lets keep this simple.

I would like all issues to be addressed, I have knowledge of the case, but I expect both parties to bring all they have into their arguments. DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 00:27, 9 July 2009 (BST)


Unlike suicidal and bob below, i have nothing to add to this case that i hadnt asked in its opening. Saying no channel is the official or the alternative is the neutral ground, and the one i feel would best serve the interest of the entire community. If we are going with link's or j3d's format, i leave to DDR to decide. --People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 05:48, 9 July 2009 (BST)


There's nothing really to it. Hagnat is pathologically incapable of sticking to one argument; first it was "durp you can't make sysops guaranteed ops in the channel because without kevan saying its official", then it became "hurr #udwiki is official cos it was there first" and now it's "omg NEITHER channel can be official!!1". While it is true that Kevan has said nothing on this matter, the fact remains that one channel is controlled by sysops/crats and the other is pretty much a vehicle for AS' ego and for Sonny's little powertrips and spazz-outs when something isn't going his way on the wiki itself.

Until Kevan weighs in either way the de facto choice for "official" wiki channel must by definition be the one controlled by the people who run the place. I'm sorry that Hagnat feels so desperate to grab at any measure of validity he can for the channel he created but the fact remains that he passed control of it over to a pack of twats that literally have nothing to do with anything. --Cyberbob 04:50, 9 July 2009 (BST)

Oh, and labelling neither official is unacceptable simply because it places the two channels on the same level - which they simply aren't. --Cyberbob 04:52, 9 July 2009 (BST)


Let me ask a question. Pretty simple one really. If a new user comes in to the wiki and looks at the irc page to find a channel he can get help in, he'll see Urbandead, a channel that is for all intents and purposes dead. He'll also see UDwiki and Urbandeadwiki. Now, if he's looking for help, which one should he pick? The one that in no way is controlled by trusted users, or the one that is controlled by a set of users that were proven by community review and vote to be trusted in their positions?

Udwiki, while fun, is a joke of a channel, and it's shameful to try and say it's about wiki discussions. Serious discussions are generally tossed to the side in favor of "teh fun stuff", or when you can keep a serious topic floating, it's generally spammed in the process. Whether it be the Animebot that tends to be perma-there (and perma "on") because of AnimeSucks (Which can be fun, just not when you're trying to talk seriously and you get the auto-responses left and right), or Sonny who has a new vendetta or "thing" every other week, the place can't really be called "official" itself anymore, nor can it be considered the main udwiki channel.

The new place is run by System Operators. Not regular users who barely even contribute to the wiki anymore. Not people who scream "DEMOTE BOXY BECUZ I WAS OFFENDED WHEN HE REMOVED MAH GROUPS". Not people who ban anyone who disagrees simply for the hell of it. It's run by trusted users, and I don't mean that in the way Izzy alwayys tried to say. I like Sonny and AS, but they are not people to be in a position of power for the UD wiki's irc channel.

I say we should call the new one the official channel and the old one should be slapped with a descriptor showing how laid back and non-serious it is. We can have an official channel--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 04:13, 9 July 2009 (BST)

Round 2

It's been pretty simple so far, so I don't see the need for an intermission/break for either party, or myself, so I wouldn't mind if we just kept this ball rolling. However, if either Hagnat, SA or Bob would like to wait a day or two before adding their input to this round, I won't mind.



norhinf to add, carry on --People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 06:01, 9 July 2009 (BST)


Hagnat didn't say anything in his opening comment that I didn't already deal with in mine, so I don't have anything else to add. I would just like to note with amusement how badly he's playing the "gonna compliment the arbitrator as much as possible while appearing as modest and humble as possible" card. --Cyberbob 05:59, 9 July 2009 (BST)


"Saying no channel is the official or the alternative is the neutral ground, and the one i feel would best serve the interest of the entire community.--People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 05:48, 9 July 2009 (BST)"

My bold. Hagnat is shooting for the "neutral" ground here, which is fine and dandy in theory. But when the neutral ground partially encourages users to go to a channel that is filled with spam and trolling, it's not okay. There's one channel that is friendly, beneficial, and able to be controlled for the rest of the wiki's existence, that's the official one, not this shitty "original one".--Mr. Angel, Help needed? 06:01, 9 July 2009 (BST)


Given that there has been little discussion or argument in the second round, I am going to end this without a section for conclusions or summaries, and will come to my decision shortly.

If any of you three users disagree with this and would like your chance to offer a conclusive statement, feel free to add your say below, as formatted above. DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 06:07, 9 July 2009 (BST)

NexusNet IRCop Sidenote

I'm the chief boss-dude head IRCop on NexusNet and it's totally up to you guys and outside of my purview to switch owners around or anything in this instance. I don't want to get involved in politics and this is up to you, not the network administrators, to figure out. Only reason I'm posting this is because I was asked to resolve this and I want to set things clear that this is not in my court. luf u~~ --Maggah

Fuck's sake, I told those morons you guys wouldn't get involved. --Cyberbob 02:10, 10 July 2009 (BST)
wait, you guys tried to grab hold of #udwiki using the ircops ? sheesh. And yo, lucero, long time no see --People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 04:13, 10 July 2009 (BST)
Not "you guys", one person (don't know who) after I made it pretty clear that they weren't going to get involved. --Cyberbob 04:14, 10 July 2009 (BST)


Since I've had all 3 of you confirm the exclusion of a summarised round 3 via IRC, I will get onto the ruling.

First I'd like to comment on all the participants of this case and thank them for being so time-efficient and co-operative in getting through this case. However, Hagnat, I found your lack of argument worrying, and it makes me question the seriousness of your approach to this. Going into arbitration so hastily over an IRC channel which you rarely even visit, about a wiki you hardly contribute to, raises questions. The possibility that maybe you are just blindly fighting this because you are #udwiki's creator certainly has raised doubts to even the least perceptive of us, and these are claims you refused to disprove. You can't enter an arbitration in this manor and expect the arbitrator to support your demands for that long, especially when your initial demands were so self-contradictory in the first place.

Essentially, my ruling is this. #urbandeadwiki and #udwiki are to both be recognised as wiki-related channels, as is the case now. However, #urbandeadwiki is to be recognised as the official channel for wiki discussion, as that is its proved purpose, and #udwiki as an alternate channel for Urban Dead Wiki discussions. I didn't hope it would have to come to an arbitration case for something like this to happen, but in an official sense, #udwiki is definitely not fit to hold equal status in the community as #urbandeadwiki. As per the issues raised by Suicidalangel and Cyberbob above, the community is being done a disservice when these two channels are being portrayed in the same light. I am well aware of the age of #urbandeadwiki and #udwiki alike, but age doesn't come into play when the latter has been in its empty state since Grim's departure. And for the record, Cyberbob was not a sysop when he requested that sysops be given owner privileges of #udwiki, hence rendering Animesuck's and Sonny's off-the-record defence as a fallacy.

The situations in which this ruling will be declared void are labelled as follows:

  • Kevan himself intervenes and specifies his own decision on the official status of each channel.
  • The current owner of #urbandeadwiki (DanceDanceRevolution), either:
    • Unregisters the channel.
    • Hands over ownership to another user (by hand or through inactivity).
    • Becomes demoted on the Urban Dead Wiki (hence rendering his rights as owner of an official channel illegitimate).

The only exception to the above is if DanceDanceRevolution actively hands on ownership to a sysop of the UDWiki. If he does so through inactivity, the ruling will become void as above.

It is not necessary for all these points to be fulfilled, just one of the above points that are labelled. Otherwise, this ruling will be in place indefinitely.

As per the above ruling, the related Urban Dead IRC Channels section is to be changed to the following:

    • #urbandeadwiki - Official channel for Urban Dead Wiki discussions.
    • #udwiki - Alternate channel for Urban Dead Wiki discussions.

Messing with these two points while this ruling is still in place will of course be a violation of an arbitration ruling.

Questions about this ruling by involved users can of course be made here. Otherwise, questions or comments taken to this cases talk page. DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 03:40, 10 July 2009 (BST)

meh. it seems i made a fool out of meself here, heh? i trusted you to go by with a neutral decision and you picked the one which satisfies only one side of this story. i dont like this ruling, and would love not to accept it, but it seems my lack of activity in the community means i am able not to care about it. --People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 04:11, 10 July 2009 (BST)
Not every ruling has to satisfy both parties fyi. Just because it went against you doesn't mean it's biased, it means you're wrong. --Cyberbob 04:12, 10 July 2009 (BST)
You don't know the full story yourself. You don't attend either channel regularly, nor the wiki. And your last sentence proves my relevant points regarding you in my ruling. DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 04:23, 10 July 2009 (BST)

Note that I have also added a small addition to the above ruling: The only exception to the above is if DanceDanceRevolution actively hands on ownership to a sysop of the UDWiki. If he does so through inactivity, the ruling will become void as above. I forgot to add it into the original ruling (it is not fair that I assume that I am the only user that can be trusted with the channel in the future, etc). DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS)

More discussion moved to talk page - DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 04:03, 11 July 2009 (BST)

I am now refusing to accept this arbitration ruling, as it does privilege only one side of this arbitration case. I had few arguments to present, but my arguments atleast were neutral towards both porties while SA and bob's simply said their channel was the official because they had the most sysops on while ours had AnimeSucks and Sonny (both long term urbandead players). #udwiki was the official channel for more than two or three years, and one cant simply create a new channel and a month later unilaterally name it the official one --People's Commissar Hagnat [talk] [wcdz] 15:00, 11 July 2009 (BST)

You may actively refuse to accept this ruling, but this is what you get. All you can physically do to refuse this ruling is to actually go and change Urban Dead IRC Channels back to before, in which I will subsequently send you to vandal banning. I do not believe the ruling is in any way unreasonable towards your requests because said requests were not backed up with any sort of argument, information or evidence. This unbreaking trust towards me you repeatedly spoke of was no more worthy of holding an argument than your position in the entire affair. You haven't seen my decision making skills as a sysop or otherwise. In the past 6 months that I've been here working on this wiki, you've been inactive. You even vouched for me under the notion that I was a completely different user, one that probably never existed in the first place. You're decision to accept me as an arbitrator and then use your ignorance towards my potential bias and blind faith towards the notion that I would be completely impartial (which I absolutely had the intention of doing) as the only argument in the entire case is just preposterous. I had every intention of hearing your word, and reasoning, towards why you think both channels should be held in the same light. Unfortunately, you brought none, and the fact you rushed into this with no knowledge of the case at hand is just a joke. The onus was on you, Hagnat, to convince me that what SA and Cyberbob were arguing was wrong, as their onus was doing the same to whatever you had to say. DANCEDANCEREVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 15:18, 11 July 2009 (BST)
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