User:Aichon/Archive 2013

Aichon:Talk Archive 2013

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Aichon

ˈīˌkän :Talk Archive 2013

Announcement: I'm no longer active. My talk page is still your best bet to get in touch. —Aichon— 04:39, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

This is an archive. Don't post here.

If you have anything you'd like to add to one of these conversations, then go to my talk page, reference the relevant conversation from here, and post your comments there. This page should not be edited by others. These are all messages I've filed away. They shouldn't be changed or added to, since the contexts of the situations have been lost, forgotten, or could simply be remembered differently by the involved parties. I'd prefer to start any of these conversations fresh, if they must come up again.

Archives: 2018 | 2017 | 2016 | 2015 | 2014 | 2013 | 2012 | 2011 | 2010 | 2009 | To do

Self bans

Never recorded them before. think we should go back and add them all? --Rosslessness 23:45, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I was going off of Matthewfarenheit's and SA's, both of which are recorded on A/VD. What others are there? I'm not even aware of any off the top of my head. If it's not too much work, then yeah, I would go back and record them, that way no one assumes something incorrect later. —Aichon— 23:49, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Me, several times, grims, technically I think as part of the coup, a handful of sysops. It's not a lot, I have a sneaking suspicion a couple of demotions came with such requests. There's not a lot, it's digging them up. Can we make bob do it? --Rosslessness 23:58, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm...well, I don't know about temporary self-requested bans, such as the ones I know you've requested in the past. I was more thinking of permabans that have been requested. The temporary variety will handle themselves after awhile, whereas the perma ones needs some sort of action to take place in order for them to be overturned, so having a paper trail helps. And Bob can't exactly do it unless he has access to A/VD, which he doesn't want for another few months. —Aichon— 00:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Your wish is my command. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 02:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Mine wasn't a self ban, I was banned due to misconduct you sillies.--SA 00:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Didn't you delete everything? --Rosslessness 00:05, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

You also requested a permaban. The misconduct thing was only a six-month ban. Your old account was actually unblocked back in March 2011 after you apparently requested to come back to DDR or one of the other sysops. —Aichon— 00:10, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I requested a perma as my misconduct punishment. Its called context, silly! You guys settled on the six month thing. :| I was able to start editing again because I moved and therefor had a new IP address to fuck about with, I never requested to be unbanned. It just happened like that :D --SA 00:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't around for it, but see this. Block log confirms you were unblocked that day. As for punishment, there's a policy against sysops enforcing their own punishment, so your request had no bearing on the decision for what punishment to enact. We just figured you didn't want to deal with the wiki any more. :P —Aichon— 00:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, lol, that you created your SA account and then told someone you wanted to come back is the reason why your old one was unbanned. You even commented on it at the time. —Aichon— 00:32, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Yep. I never requested a self ban, I requested a perma ban as my punishment. You guys settled on a sixer+self ban though. And I, as stated, got mad at Thad and decided to edit again. Not my fault you guys left an opening!--SA 00:39, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's anyone's fault that you did something we were hoping you'd do. :D —Aichon— 00:46, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, I'm pretty sure DDR just unblocked everything since I said I was back. I dunno. Important thing is I still maintain that the "self ban" was actually a misconduct ban!--SA 00:50, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Pfft, whatever. That's not a valid request, so it could only be treated as a self-request. Obvious. Wikilaw 101 stuff. —Aichon— 03:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Before he was talking about having forgotten the password. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 05:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

A bunch of the cases I found are ambiguous. From the demotions archive all I could find was this which you guys mentioned above, and a discussion of a possible ban with this request by Ross. Is this equivalent to a self-ban? And I'm assuming we're not counting Generaloberst repeatedly reporting himself to A/VB as an attempted self-ban.

Here are the (largely) unambiguous ones I've got from A/VB: Thad, Axe, Poodle, TripleU, Axe, Poodle, more Poodle, Ross, WanYao, Janus Abernathy, DDR, Thekooks.

Also, I never realized how totally crazy some of the A/VB archives are. Personal favorite. And how inconsistent the formatting is. Why did we switch from having the navbar at the top to the bottom in January 2010? And that we only started using {{v}} in December of 2009. Looking through ones before that was a hundred times more difficult. I'm only as far back as January 2008, since the lists get longer and longer and more and more disheveled as you go back in time. Will get to the rest later tonight. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 02:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The VB archives are some of the funnest times in the wiki's history, along with A/M. You will enjoy reading some of those cases :D --SA 02:43, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Bob, if you keep this up, your name will become a verb synonymous with "being way too thorough". Then again, I suppose I've been accused of that in the past as well...

And yeah, the archives are kinda insane to go through, but if you think they're bad, try to make sense of A/VD records from the early days. That's why my ongoing project of linkifying A/VD is such a start-and-stop affair that manages to hit a snag every time I go through more than about a dozen users. And I'm even outright staying away from some of them for the time being, since they're so convoluted. —Aichon— 03:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Remainder: Hagnat and Hagnat again. Brizth. Gold Blade's case is weird. DarkStar2374383 and Wanker are both self-reporters. Also, maybe this? Hard to discern. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 05:46, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Wathe is an alt of the 3pwv(3 page wiki vandal) who was a prolific vandal back in the day and liked to point out and claim credit for his actions. He was reporting himself for his ego but had actually committed tons of vandal edits, per normal. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 09:01, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Haha, wasn't hagnat a/m'd for those? A ZOMBIE ANT 03:12, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

yip

unpromote him immediately --Rosslessness 10:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Mis

We should really do something about his bid. --Rosslessness 19:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I literally hit the + on your talk page to post something when I saw my talk page had been edited. Whad'ya have in mind? —Aichon— 19:22, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe an old, old wooden ship from the civil war era? --Rosslessness 19:25, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused. Which civil war are we talking about? American? Spanish? Something else? —Aichon— 19:27, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I was giving the situation the level of seriousness I thought it deserved. American. --Rosslessness 19:30, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, contrary to what you may think, Americans don't all keep Civil War era ships in their backyard, so I do not have one I can provide for this situation. —Aichon— 19:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. There's only so far you can go in urban dead without turning up Ron Burgundy --Rosslessness 19:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't a fan of the movie, and the player predates me, so I miss a lot of references. —Aichon— 20:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

So, seriously, what are your thoughts? —Aichon— 20:27, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Fails the important criteria of level of contribution. Cute, but not that cute. --Rosslessness 20:31, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, despite the overwhelming levels of support he's receiving (most of which is either joking or clearly assuming that his bid is a joke), as well as the check that he assures me is in the mail, I'm leaning towards a "no" on this one. He's actually not too far off on his activity, but I'd want to see it up a bit higher. If his activity picked up a bit more, or he was clearly serious about it and had had increased activity recently, or even if this was just a re-eval after one of his terms, that would be different, but this is none of those. —Aichon— 20:41, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

An excellent summary. --Rosslessness 20:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, can you explain how you define his activity as "not too far off"? Because I think it's terrible? --Rosslessness 21:09, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

He has around 250 edits in the last six months, which is about halfway there. I'm willing to give a bit of extra leeway to former sysops who have a good record and left on good terms. —Aichon— 21:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, fair enough, I frame the question "How long has he taken to make 500 edits?", which gives the slightly more concerning answer of "Summer 2011". --Rosslessness 21:21, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that as well, but he's had increased activity in the last year, though not enough to get to a point where I'd be okay with a promotion. —Aichon— 21:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Twice this week I've found unexpected interpretations of udwiki criteria. I'm obviously too set in my ways. --Rosslessness 22:37, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Meh, the deletions thing was a brainfart by me. Should've made more sense to me at the time. You're not too old just yet. <3 --Shortround }.{ My Contributions 22:43, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

And the contributions thing is just different ways of viewing it. Whereas you view it as, "How far back do I have to go to see 500 contributions?", I view it as, "How many contributions did they have in the last six months?" Both are valid, but I think my way is less susceptible to weirdness that can occur when someone comes back from inactivity. As for the deletions thing, that tallying you did made things a breeze to double-check. It's easy to understand why you did that as you did, and I certainly don't blame you for it, since I'm pretty sure I have seen people do it that way in the past. Nonetheless, it's one of those things where even if it might be standard operating procedure, it needs to be fixed (and I'm not saying it is SOP, just that that wouldn't be an excuse to keep it as it is). —Aichon— 22:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

hate you guys :( 23:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

<3 u —Aichon— 23:45, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Question

You know when you got all demoted and stuff? Do you think you did more useful wiki stuff without buttons? --Rosslessness 19:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, no, but I'd say that was more a factor of my inactivity and lack of interest than my lack of buttons, especially so since my inactivity and lack of interest were the reasons I requested a demotion in the first place. We should also consider my contributions in 2012 both before and after I was re-promoted, but whether I had the buttons or not, I'm hard-pressed to come up with much useful wiki stuff that I've actually done. I chip in on discussions here or there, but I don't feel like I can point to anything and say, "I was a major part in making that happen." If anything, I feel like I've been getting in the way of actual progress in a few different places by some of the newcomers, which is not something I want to be doing.

I will say that I think it's easier to keep yourself occupied with busywork if you have the buttons, just because there are a few extra jobs available to you. Whether that means cleaning up bots or sorting out stuff on A/VD, there's always something to do as a sysop. That said, very little of it is actually necessary on a day-to-day basis. Most of the day-to-day tasks we have can be accomplished in under 2 minutes by just one member of the team. —Aichon— 21:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, busy work is the issue I think. The thing is I feel it is a responsibility of the badge. Damn. There's so much I want to get on with here. --Rosslessness 22:17, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Its like Aichon said, there's not much going on that require buttons. You could pretty much ignore all of whatever comes up and just go on with projects you would rather be doing. Grunt work will still get done. Just use the buttons when they are needed. That's pretty much how I handled things prior to my demotion. The demotion itself didn't really do much to motivate me. Whatever motivation I had for doing things came on its own and was actually rather short lived. I worked on Project Timeline but as you can see, its a long way from complete. ~ _{23:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)}

The hurry the fuck up and finish it >:I --SA 13:29, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

3 days to go! As a confirmation I won't seek re-election. --Rosslessness 22:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. like bummer man.--User:Sexualharrison23:57, 18 January 2013

Why do you hate me...? :( --Shortround }.{ My Contributions 00:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, lol. Consider yourself lucky. I copy/pasted that entire list from the A/M archives. It was never intended to be comprehensive. Your lack of a presence there is a very good thing for you. :P —Aichon— 00:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

2013 SA section

—Aichon— 22:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

la boule courte

The community review looks clear-cut. The large activity gap in October/November is something to be wary of, but I'd still be in favour of chaining him for 8 more months. -- Spiderzed█ 17:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Make it so. —Aichon— 18:07, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

my own damn section!

hey aich, i'm about to move to another city and will be with out of interwebs for a bit. do you know of any good "away from wiki" templates?--User:Sexualharrison18:44, 7 February 2013

Afraid I'm not aware of any. Hey, all of you WikiJaguars, you guys got anything? —Aichon— 19:06, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I know only of this one: Template:LessActive. There are also Template:Inactive and Template:SysopHiatus, but they are of any use for ops only. -- Spiderzed█ 19:18, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

I knew about the sysop ones, but I did not know about {{LessActive}}. Good call. —Aichon— 19:27, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

There are other templates you can find on Project Sleep. --Labla 20:02, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Hah

Now there you are, concerned about I might not disagree enough with you on administrative stuff -- Spiderzed█ 18:50, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Sure, we disagree on some things as regular users, such as how we should vote on policies, but when we're acting as sysops, such as in the A/VB and A/M cases, we were in total agreement. Only Karek suggested some disagreement in the A/VB case. ;) —Aichon— 19:05, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

UDWiki:Administration/Sysop_Archives/Vista/2006-07-01_Bureaucrat_Promotion

Lots of strikethrough? --Rosslessness 22:56, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it was there to begin with. I thought about trying to figure out where it was supposed to end, but then I got fed up and decided that I'll just leave it archived as it is. —Aichon— 22:57, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of archives, you gonna dive in with this stuff at some point? —Aichon— 23:04, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Once I work it out. Think ive fixed it. --Rosslessness 23:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Mmm...I don't think so. Both of those first two comments are by Cyberbob, and he did strikeouts and different signatures on his other Vouches/Againsts as well. Reverting for now since I'm fairly confident he didn't vote twice under one heading. As for the A/M cases you linked, that looks right. You just need to move the existing pages to those locations and add the breadcrumb template at the top (see other examples of A/M cases I've done already), and in the case of the 2010 one, split it into two pages, one for each case. —Aichon— 02:13, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The Herd

Thanks for giving me the chance to fix my recruitment advert. Does it look better now?--BeatMyAces 21:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Yup, looks good! I went ahead and moved TheHerd/Recruit to The Herd/Recruit so that it's underneath your main The Herd page. And you're very welcome. :) —Aichon— 21:30, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Link underline color

You may have noticed that I recently created a recruitment ad for my group, the MTT. I've figured out (thanks to some spying on other group ads, including the SoC) how to do most things, but I was wondering if there was a way to change the underline color on hovered links, which appear blue, or purple for visited pages, whatever the color of the linked text. I'm trying to get my whole ad to be black and white, but the little purple lines appear, so I decided to come to you as one of the more code-savvy wikizens. Thanks so much! Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 06:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Quickfix: Just underline the links, as I did on the Cobra page. The underline in the default link color depending on browser settings won't appear then. -- Spiderzed█ 06:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, Spider's way is better and way more obvious. I must be tired. —Aichon— 06:30, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmm...there's not exactly a great way to do it, but in putzing around a bit, it looks like setting a span to have a display property of inline-block with a border on the bottom seems to do the trick, at least inasmuch as it hides the usual underline and allows you to specify your own, though the line is always visible and is offset a bit further than the usual one is. —Aichon— 06:28, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you! I'll try underlining and see if that satisfies me ;) Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 10:08, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Demo14

that`s one nice table you got there...

it would be a shame if something...

happened...

to it :3 --hagnat 00:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Eh, it was like an hour and a half's work, only a third of which was spent making the table itself, since I was using a text editor and a lot of copy/paste + find/replace. Makes the work go quickly. Also, if you know anything about those early 'ops, I'd love to hear anything you have, since tracking down the sysops that were promoted before A/PM was in place is a task I don't know how to handle. —Aichon— 01:24, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

You should be able to check their individual user rights logs, if I'm not mistaken (purges may have made that a pipe dream though, fucking Stalin Kevan). Checking the old moderator pages should throw up enough names to work with. 01:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

In most cases the user rights logs seem to work and are intact all the way back to 2005, but at least with Katthew, it's showing a promotion, but no later demotion, yet her rights are clearly set to that of a regular user. Also, I suspect I'm simply unaware of many of the early sysops, which means I can't check for them since I don't know who I'd be checking for. For instance, I'd have never thought to look for Katthew if I hadn't heard mention of her being a sysop at one point. —Aichon— 01:33, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Add a star in every month i got a misconbitration :D --hagnat 02:02, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Log files don't get purged, Kevan intentionally leaves them. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 04:31, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it looks like some must've been purged, since there's no record of Katthew being demoted in the user rights logs. —Aichon— 06:07, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I made a fairly comprehensive list for the Grimmies a couple of years ago. I think you're only missing LeakyBocks, though I didn't do a thorough comparison.

Your table starts in Aug '05 but the wiki didn't go live until that September. Is that because there are logs predating September 7th? BTW, LeakyBocks was apparently the first promoted user, before even Kevan or Urbandead. It was suggested he was tech support and probably Kevan's friend that help him set up the wiki. No idea when he was demoted. Probably when that Truly Inactive Sysops policy passed. ~ _{05:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)}

Honestly, I just copy/pasted a few cells for 2005 and didn't count them until later, so it was laziness on my part that it starts in August. As for LeakyBlocks, his promotion was on the 6th of September, so that pushes things a day ahead of where you thought, and he was promoted by Urbandead about 2 hours before Kevan was. He was demoted in May 2008 by Kevan, presumably because everyone else had forgotten about him and he didn't need his powers any longer. —Aichon— 06:07, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

You might find some discussion about katthe promotion in the talk:Main Page history from the earlier days of the wiki... good luck on the dig hunt :) --hagnat 01:10, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, since I'm guessing Gnome is lurking, thanks for pointing out the error. After staring at numbers for so long, they all kinda run together sometimes. —Aichon— 06:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

IRC

I saw your edit summary. I actually don't know how IRC works - whenever I try to go to the website everyone mentions (irc.nexuswar.com) I only see a black screen with a jagged green circle on it. Can you explain it to me? Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 15:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Sure. To start from the very beginning, you need an IRC client if you want to connect to an IRC server. There's a browser-based client called Mibbit that's rather popular around here. If you want a native client for Mac or Windows, I can strongly recommend Colloquy for Mac, and I can halfheartedly recommend IceChat for Windows.

Once you're logged onto the server, you'll need to join a channel (i.e. basically a chat room) on that server by either typing in "/join #channelname" or using your client to join it some other way. Wiki stuff is in the #udwiki channel these days (though historically #urbandeadwiki was the "official" channel for awhile), and you should be able to find channels for pretty much any major group in the game (e.g. #soc, #mob, #rrf, #philosophe, etc., though #philosophe is password protected).

When you're in a channel, you should be able to see everyone else who has also joined that channel and is currently in it. Unfortunately, at least with UD, it's likely that many of them will not be at their computers at that time, since most of us leave our clients logged in 24/7, even when we're away. As a result, the channels aren't exactly hotbeds of conversation where people are talking all the time. Instead, people tend to just sit in there until a conversation starts, at which point they'll join in.

If you need to talk to someone, you can either PM them via IRC (usually just click, double-click, or right-click on their name, depending on your client) to engage in a one-on-one discussion with them, or you can simply say their name in a channel they're in. Saying someone's screenname will "ping" that person, generally by either flashing the window or making a sound on their end. As such, it's common courtesy to only ping them once then to stay online for a few hours to give them a chance to respond. Leaving a small message so that they know what it's related to is also a nice thing to do.

Now, with all of that out of the way, if you want to keep things super simple, the easy way to get you started is to have you simply follow this link to Mibbit, choose a username, and log in (that link will automatically log you onto the nexuswar server in the #udwiki channel). BAM! Done. —Aichon— 16:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm on IRC via Mibbit, but I'm not sure how to change my profile info? You can answer here or there if you're on. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 17:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

I tend to be on in the evening to late evening for U.S. Central, unless someone says something here that prompts me to get on during the workday (or if there's some drama exploding, in which case I'll hop on to get real-time updates and coordinate with others to handle it). As for profile info, if you're using Mibbit, I'm not sure that you can change it, but it shouldn't be important anyway, so long as folks know who you are based on your screen name. Most of the regulars on there also register their screen names so that they're locked to them, though I don't remember the syntax of the commands for doing so off the top of my head (I believe the relevant commands are "register" and "identify" when you're talking with the Nickserv user, though you can PM Nickserv and type "help" to get more info on the commands). —Aichon— 17:27, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok cool. I will try to be online for as much of today/this evening as I can. Thanks! Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 17:45, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding 'crats and nominations

So, folks on IRC mentioned that it looks bad for a 'crat to nominate someone, and it's something I've been mulling over for a few hours now (after being a teaching assistant for three semesters on a senior-level engineering ethics class that had 650+ students a semester, these sorts of questions get stuck in my head). And because it's a topic that's worth discussing with others and is relevant to stuff happening here, I'd like to go through my after-the-fact thoughts and see if anyone has something to add.

To start with the necessary context, the choice I'm questioning was whether or not I should have posted the nomination for Bob. Clearly, I chose to do so, and I think the main complaints against what I did are as follows:

1. It's a conflict of interest for me to process a nomination that I created.
2. It's bad for appearances if I undermine my facade of impartiality by stating my opinion.

I think we can all understand those easily enough, and I also think we can likely agree that they're true. Yes, it is a conflict of interest, and yes, I did destroy any chance I had at appearing impartial in this matter. From there, the main questions I see are "what's expected of me?", "will I be able to fulfill it?", and "assuming my choice was morally right, was it the best choice?". Put differently, "did I act ethically?" and "did I make the best choice?"

As a 'crat, I have a responsibility to rule fairly on each nomination, but clearly no 'crat is entirely devoid of thought or opinion (despite signs to the contrary :P), and the community is aware of this fact. What we, the community, do is choose the people who we think are most capable of putting aside their personal opinions and judging fairly when the time comes. As such, the measure of impartiality is not that I am devoid of opinion, but rather that I am capable of separating myself from my opinions to the degree expected of me when the time comes. The danger that conflicts of interest pose is that they can make it more difficult to find that separation.

Related to that, one of the first things they'll teach you in any ethics class is that conflicts of interest, in and of themselves, are not unethical. What makes them a problem is a failure to disclose them to the people in charge, particularly when you stand to gain something. But when we look at this case, we can see that I stand to gain absolutely nothing from having posted the nomination myself. As such, I'm under no pressure to judge any differently than I would have if someone else had posted the nomination, nor should it make it any more difficult for me to separate myself from my personal opinions later, which was the concern voiced in the last paragraph.

That said, we still have the issue of disclosing my conflict of interest to a person in charge. The reason that's important is because other people may perceive deceit or wrongdoing where none exists if full disclosure does not take place, and so a person in charge needs to have a chance to relieve you of duty in cases where the conflict is problematic. While I effectively engaged in full disclosure when I signed the nomination, we don't have anyone in a position of authority over the 'crats, other than the community itself (which is incapable of taking immediate and effective action), which means that it can still taste a bit like something is wrong. Even so, the fact that my judgment is not being impacted renders that point mostly moot, though clearly it would be better if there were someone higher up who could choose to either relieve me of duty or leave me on as a result of my having posted the nomination.

In some ways, it's ironic that while both being open or remaining silent will not impact a 'crat's judgment, being open about their opinions would create an appearance of wrongdoing, where remaining silent on the matter would not.

Anyway, in this case, I think it's safe to say that my judgment will not be impacted by my having posted the nomination, nor will have I have any problems meeting the expectations that have been set before me as a result of posting it. As such, I think we can say that it was an ethically permissible choice that I made. Of course, that doesn't mean it was the best choice, which was the last of those questions above.

But that's a whole other essay (no, really, it is...I had some of it typed up, but this was already ridiculous enough). —Aichon— 05:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

If a crat nominates someone, it's down to the other crat to make the call. Simple, tidy and not-a-brick-of-words. 05:56, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Not a good idea. Sysop nominations work with vetoes. By removing me, you're eliminating one of the vetoes, which throws things pretty far in Bob's favor. That's definitely not a fair way to handle things. —Aichon— 07:38, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

The way I see it, if one crat nominates someone they're throwing the ball to the other crat to say "I'm in favour, either veto this or don't", which is basically how it works already, only this way the intention of one crat is known that little bit sooner. It's really not a new issue that needs explaining. 21:25, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with that, though the question is whether or not the public nature of throwing the ball to the other 'crat changes things at all. It's an appearances issue, basically. —Aichon— 21:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Which is why the wiki needed 3 crats, to break ties and avoid conflicts of interest with one member. But it doesn't really matter now since only 20 people care about the wiki and half of them are running it.--THE Godfather of Яesensitized, Anime Sucks ^{Yalk | W! U! WMM| CC CPFOAS LOE ZHU | Яezzens} 08:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

If anything, a third 'crat would make things worse without solving a single problem you've cited. Again, 'crats function with vetoes, not votes, so as long as a single 'crat objects, the promotion doesn't take place. As such, there's no such thing as a tie, and if one 'crat has a conflict of interest that causes him to favor a candidate, the other 'crat is still just as capable as ever of vetoing the promotion. Similarly, if a 'crat has a grudge against a candidate, adding a third 'crat won't help avoid that problem in the slightest. All that adding a third 'crat does is add more delay since more people would need to be consulted. —Aichon— 15:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I think if a third 'crat were added, it would have to go with a provision that two 'crats can overrule the third, moving it from a veto to a vote system. (I personally don't support that, as I think the sysop team as a whole is the one which should be concerned with voting situations.) Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 15:39, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Dude, you're never going to veto somebody you nominated anyway, so it's completely irrelevant. All you nominating somebody does is say that you're content that they're a good enough candidate and aren't going to veto them. If you change your mind in the process of the bid then the fact that you originally nominated them is completely irrelevant. If you were never going to change your mind anyway then it doesn't matter because you wouldn't have vetoed anyway. This is in no way a big deal and crats should feel free to do whatever they want.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 20:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm with you on the irrelevancy topic, which was more or less what I concluded in the wall of text above. The followup topic is whether or not nominating is the best choice to take. I.e. Is the fact that it's known by many to be irrelevant sufficient to outweigh the concerns that the 'crat will appear more partial by having stated their opinion so publicly? —Aichon— 21:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm still processing most of that, but I think I'm of the belief that full disclosure occurred when you posted the nomination, because that indicated that you had a biased stance. To take a counterpoint example, in Peralta's bid last year, you revealed after the bid had been withdrawn that you were in favor of Peralta's elevation to sysophood (in the post "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly"). While I don't doubt that your personal opinion in that case had no bearing on how you would have processed it had the nomination not been withdrawn, I think it could be argued that by not revealing your personal preference you were not giving the community full disclosure. So I guess I'm saying that I think you did the right thing in nominating me, because if you hadn't, your strong bias would have gone undiscovered until the end (or not at all). I don't know; it's really late at night.

That aside, I do think I would prefer if SZ processed the bid, to avoid a kerfuffle among the community. I would still expect you to add your input, as I think you can still make a good judgement call about which way the community is pointing, if not necessarily about how you yourself are pointing. I guess that's what I vote for when I vote for a bureaucrat; someone who can be a successful barometer of the community, while minimizing the influences of his own biases. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 06:58, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, disclosure was unnecessary there since there was no reason for there to be a perception of wrongdoing on my part (i.e. no conflicts of interest). Unless you want to make an argument that transparency is always necessary, disclosure for its own sake is not always desirable. Besides which, even if you do think that disclosure is good for its own sake, I could have done it in a different way that didn't lead to a conflict of interest, such as by letting someone else nominate you and then merely vouch for you afterwards. That would have meant no conflict of interest while still having full disclosure. Would that have been a better way to handle things? I think so, though I don't (yet) regret having done what I did. —Aichon— 07:38, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Mayhaps. I am the kind of person who thinks transparency is pretty much always necessary. That's because I think that everyone is always biased, and it's better if everyone knows everyone's biases to the best extent possible, unless there's a specific reason to conceal them. Maybe creating an atmosphere of impartiality around the bureaucrats is worth that, I don't know. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 07:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

And that's exactly the question I was getting at. I don't share your belief that transparency is always necessary, particularly when it comes to personal opinions, but I am a regular user who wants to be able to express his opinions freely. It may be selfish of me to seek to do so if it comes at the cost of maintaining the appropriate atmosphere around the 'crats, but that's precisely what I wanted to explore as a topic. —Aichon— 15:27, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

And second to my first comment, you get more transparency when crats can propose them, because either: (1) The crat is willing to change their mind based on community opinion in which case it doesn't matter because they'll go against their initial support if the candidate is bad or (2) The crat isn't. If this is the case then it's much better to know that (i.e. you get more transparency) than if somebody else nominates the candidate, the crat is secretly biased, was always going to support them and you just never find that out. More transparency if crats can do more. Simples.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 20:45, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Quite true. I suppose that begs the question of whether or not the transparency is worth sacrificing the appearance of impartiality. —Aichon— 21:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

shut the fuck up it's fine. only morons and trolls would question your intentions.--User:Sexualharrison21:13, 19 March 2013

lol, this wasn't a defense. This was me thinking through the moral ramifications of my choice and then suggesting that it may not have been the best choice to make. —Aichon— 21:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Right. To throw in my thoughts, I generally agree with Aichon, but on a personal level I never would nominate as a sitting crat. I'd go to their talk page and discuss the idea and try and steer opinion, but I prefer self nomination. That's why I love Thad. --Rosslessness 21:22, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

You're the only one I know who prefers self-nomination. Everyone else either doesn't care or prefers that others nominate. And I definitely can respect choosing to not nominate as a personal choice. —Aichon— 21:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

For me it shows two things; firstly that you're thick skinned enough to put yourself to public vote, and secondly that you've got a real desire to do the job. Also, without self nomination we would never have had xela's bid. It's my favourite by miles. --Rosslessness 21:39, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, regarding Bob, you'll be happy to know that he planned to self-nominate, and only didn't because I asked if I could do it instead. :P —Aichon— 21:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

That's true. I also think I'm slightly in favor of self-nomination as well, if only because it allows a user to time things so they fit best with his/her life outside UDWiki (I know, some people have those, right?) But I'm cool with whatever - since a significant part of the community disagrees with self-noms, I agreed to have Aichon nominate me instead. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 23:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

As a quick note to everyone, this was simply a thought experiment that I thought was worth some discussion. I'm not trying to offer a defense for what I did, nor am I attempting to justify it. I'm simply attempting to work through what it means, and have invited all of you along for roller coaster in my brain. :P —Aichon— 21:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

What the fuck is this? Crats make their decisions based on their assessment of the community feedback. Someone in support of a sysop candidate can still veto a bid and vice versa. What a dumb thing to say. I didn't read anything from the above, but of the 2 and a half sentences I did, I think it's the most ridiculous conversation I've ever heard. Harrison is right. Now stop brooding everyone for god's sake A ZOMBIE ANT 22:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm tl:dr'ing that, so apologies if this is already said. By voice your opinion, you are actually giving your justification for the decision prior to the voting (vetoing) allowing disagreeing users to specifically address your reasoning. In this case, I don't see that being an issue, but in others it could actually assist the community if there are strong feelings against the candidate or if the community feels you are unduly giving credit. I'd rather the crats give their opinion before making it a final decision every time rather than the secret discussion that can ignore votes. --_K 22:47, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Had never thought of that, good point. transparency = good A ZOMBIE ANT 07:12, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Brooding? Not really. When I'm brooding, I'm not having fun. I started this conversation because it was a fun one for me to think through, and I wanted to open it up to others. —Aichon— 15:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Vote or Comment in Suggestion 20130325?

You have not written "Keep" in front of your comment in the keep section of the Voice Recognition/Radio suggestion. Were you voting or were you just commenting? Lpha 21:29, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I was voting. You don't actually need to write "Keep", "Kill", "Spam", or "Dupe", so long as you place your vote in the appropriate section and provide some form of justification (and even the justification thing isn't ever enforced). —Aichon— 21:43, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, don't forget to add your signature to your vote. —Aichon— 21:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Borrowed Several of your Templates

Sorry, but i borrowed several of the templates you were using. Lpha 21:41, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

You're very welcome to borrow them, though you may want to borrow the originals, rather than the custom ones I made to match my page. ;)

For reference, here are the originals for the ones you borrowed:

• {{American}}
• {{Grammar}}
• {{Zerg}}

The colors are a bit different, but they use less code, which is rather nice when you need to edit your page. —Aichon— 21:47, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

I changed what was written on them. Lpha 21:51, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, that you did. Disregard my suggestion then. :) —Aichon— 22:03, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

MOB locator

I'm about to try to update this (the suburb). I will probably break it. So, forewarning. --_K 21:43, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

If I broke it, I didn't break it bad. Though I now notice the suburb map doesn't have 'the update this if you have more current information', so maybe I shouldn't have done that. --_K 21:52, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

What's missing? I don't see anything broken, though you should also add an announcement about our new location. ;) —Aichon— 22:01, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, to keep the theme up I need to steal the coloring for your MOB sig and make a pete sig... and learn how to do a sig other than with the button. --_K 22:05, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I just copy/paste mine, or else type it in manually each time, since that's almost the only place I ever use that sig. —Aichon— 22:09, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I just stole your code and added in my name/user page. Figured out the 'just time' thing after a couple of tries. Thanks. --_K 22:16, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

The five tildes? Sorry, didn't realize you were looking for that, otherwise I would've told you. —Aichon— 22:42, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, stealing my code for that is very fine. I stole mine from an old version that FLZombie used and then modified it a tiny bit to match the exact MOB color when we redid the locator a few months back. —Aichon— 22:44, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Not a problem, I had never used anything other than the button, so copying your work made it much easier, that was just the only trial and error part. As for your code, I figured you wouldn't mind and I wanted to preserve the page style. I'll probably pester you about something else before too long. --_K 01:40, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Nothing to do with the locator... But the strike teams section on the MOB main page still says four teams. I'm not completely sure that was unintentional, but thought it might have been. I'll defer making the change in case there is a reason I don't know. --_K 15:34, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to change it. I'm sure it was an oversight from when BLF was removed. —Aichon— 05:31, 31 March 2013 (BST)

(:

No problems at all. I thought about joining Philosophe Knights at one point. Too much thinking for me to RP such a title, as I tend to over think things anyway and getting into philosophy constantly would give me a headache. Anyways, no hard feelings. I'm always open to ideas from your group if you wanted to collaborate something. CyberOpposition 04:11, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Anticlimax

Watching Special:Statistics after a sig change isn't as exciting as you made it seem. I want my $7 back. ~ _{01:57, 1 April 2013 (UTC)}

Wait wait are the sig image size rules gone? 04:06, 1 April 2013 (BST)

Not last I checked. I reverted his change, since I can only assume it was an accident. —Aichon— 04:17, 1 April 2013 (BST)

Damn. Was gonna go buck daft there. 04:29, 1 April 2013 (BST)

Hmm. That's weird. Looks fine on my end. Let me try again. ~ _{04:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)}

The issue is that the new image was huge, so it made your sig take up something like 400px. Fix that and it'll be fine, but I don't need to be seeing gigantic images for sigs all over pages. :P —Aichon— 04:32, 1 April 2013 (BST)

Annnnd, still doing it. Change your sig if you want to use that image, maybe? Enforce a size limit on it. —Aichon— 04:33, 1 April 2013 (BST)

Try clearing your cache, maybe? ~ _{04:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)}

Huge rabbit is huge still. It's not a cache issue, since it should be showing up that large, given that the image itself is that large and you aren't setting it to show up smaller anywhere. —Aichon— 04:36, 1 April 2013 (BST)

No I'm pretty sure its a chaching issue. ~ _{04:40, 1 April 2013 (UTC)}

You're right. When I closed out my browser completely, I'm unable to see the images at all (I just see my desktop image on my computer!). Must be a caching issue. —Aichon— 04:42, 1 April 2013 (BST)

It looks like a tiny bunny to me, well within sig limits. Are you sure it is not on your end? -MHSstaff 04:49, 1 April 2013 (BST)

I think you broke it Aichon. Now it is like a million pixels large or something. -MHSstaff 04:55, 1 April 2013 (BST)

I'm sure it's me. After all, I reverted everything to how it was a few hours ago, and it's been broken for years... ¬_¬ —Aichon— 04:59, 1 April 2013 (BST)

I think I finally fixed it. How's this? 05:00, 1 April 2013 (BST)

*sigh* —Aichon— 05:02, 1 April 2013 (BST)

Looks fine on my end. The large images were messing everything up. Thanks for fixing it. -MHSstaff 05:04, 1 April 2013 (BST)

I'd like your opinion...

I'm putting this on your page because I'd love your opinion. I'm daring to do this publicly because I'd like to see what other folks think too - but I'm hoping for thoughtful, non-dismissive answers. I tend to see the official channels as rife with that brand of contribution.

So, something Kirsty said on her SysOp 'application' made me think about how well the wiki is tied to the game, and it made me remember that for a decent period of time way back when I first started that I didn't get it at all, what was here, how the meta game worked, and even that there was more than "What the percentage likelihood to find a genny in a mall hardware store is..."

That, and as I came back last fall, I was amazed at how balkanized everything had become. How in order to figure out what's going on at the moment, I visit 10 or so group forums every day, FAR AWAY from what is really supposed to be the centralized resource for information about the game.

It occurs to me that maybe the front page is due for a revision? Something that has a slightly more sexy and comprehensible GUI? go HERE for group information, go HERE for guides of all kinds, go HERE for gameplay information, a what's happening that actually corresponds to shit happening in the game? "The MOB's eating West Grayside. The Philosophe Knights continue to hunt Team Zombie Hardcore. The Late Night TV Crue are killing all the SysOps they can find... Axe Hack is making another obvious alt and trying to get into groups undetected... etc.?

That - and I'm not sure this is even possible now that Kevan's ditched - but maybe the log-in screen of the game itself needs a box touting the wiki a bit more, rather than just a button saying 'wiki'? "HEY YOU! There's another whole component of this game that goes way beyond what you see when you log your guy in! Go to the wiki to find a group, to read about coordinated stuff people are doing, yadda yadda?" Something that drives traffic here, where they'll find something simple and comprehensible, and then get sucked in the way I was to the human side of this and at just how amazingly clever people can be in this game?"

Further, then maybe there needs to be a campaign that asks active groups to at least update their pages with some kind of 'recent activity' once a month? So it's not necessary to go to all those forums?

I'm probably dreaming, and my specific ideas might suck for a host of great reasons - but overall, aren't there things we might try to reverse the slow decline here?

Thanks for listening.-- 15:54, 5 April 2013 (BST)

I definitely agree that the main page needs a redesign, and focusing around the sort of stuff that you're talking about would be a great idea. It's actually a topic that we've talked about quite a bit and that pretty much everyone agrees is necessary. Unfortunately, no one has put together a mockup for a new design that A) we can all agree on, and B) that will actually function correctly. I put together something a few months back that we all pretty much agreed would be a step up from what we have now, but we discovered at the last minute that the menu bar across the top is broken for everyone using the default theme, ever since the last wiki software somehow broke the way that the CSS is included in themes.

As for the login screen, that's out of our control entirely, I'm afraid. And regarding having more in-game updates on the main page, I'm actually in agreement that stuff like that would be useful, but the problem is that it (as you might imagine) gets extremely sticky when you start to give preferential treatment to groups just because they're more well-known or whatever than other groups. With various groups being inactive and active, oftentimes from one week to the next, it's almost impossible to keep updated, and that's assuming that the groups even want their whereabouts on the front page at all. That said, I think that I'd actually be in favor of having a box with extremely short (<10 words, say) status updates from any groups that show up on the stats page and that get deleted automatically after a month or something. We need to get over ourselves and start doing what's best for the community-at-large that isn't a part of the wiki community, which is something we've had problems doing. —Aichon— 18:36, 5 April 2013 (BST)

A snapshot of stats to put on the main page would be pretty sweet. It could be bot updated or, lacking that gnome'd weekly or so. I'll make myself available for main page reboot discussion if it resurfaces. Not sure if we'll get the css/theme problems fixed. Has anyone ping'd Kevan about that? Maybe there's a testbed wiki somewhere that stuff can be worked out and give a step-by-step method of fixing those issues. ~ _{18:59, 5 April 2013 (UTC)}

Afraid not on that last point. Something outright broke, so without having a copy of this wiki that we could attempt to fix, I'm not sure how we'd be able to use a second wiki to help us here. And I'm not sure that anyone has pinged him, though I kinda doubt he'd respond even if we did on a topic like this. Anyway, I'm game for reopening these discussions as well with some ideas that are a bigger departure from what we currently have. One of the complaints with my design was that it didn't have something on the left side to visually balance out the right, but status updates from groups in a box down the left side could do just that for it. —Aichon— 19:09, 5 April 2013 (BST)

The discussions Aichon mentions are here and here, and the technical issues with Aichon's proposal are discussed here. They're an interesting read and give a good idea of why nothing happened last time this topic came up despite largely having consensus. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 19:09, 5 April 2013 (BST)

Perhaps a help group for new groups could be formed, similar to Project Welcome. Something to help the numerous Crit 2 group pages blossom into nice group pages and maybe an introduction to metagaming. Or just a collection of resources for new folks trying to form groups. I know there are some guides out there but it could be that they're being passed over/not seen. ~ _{19:45, 5 April 2013 (UTC)}

Wow! Of course you guys have worked on this. I want to read up on everything Bob posted, then I'll come back. Thanks!-- 21:59, 5 April 2013 (BST)

If you guys are worried about preferential group treatment for in-game updates on the wiki, you can always word it to be anonymous. "A mob of zombies ransacked Caiger Mall last night", or something like that. Little, quick, sentence-long news blurbs on the main page, so to speak. (People who really know what's going would probably still know what and who the updates pertain to, though.) It might also be worthwhile to have some sort of centralized active group page, if you wanting to quickly know what groups are up to. I don't know. Also, we could give the CP something to do. But I'm not sure that we'd ever use it much, without really needing to. And one more also... I do have ideas for another main page, although I don't have the time to create anything right now. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 00:25, 6 April 2013 (BST)

This is mostly what makes people not want to update or read these things. It's better to have flavor, just no recruiting or falsification. --Karek^{maps 2.0?!} 06:30, 6 April 2013 (BST)

Is there any chance we could have a "first day on the wiki" guide like the one for the game on the main page? Maybe divided into a sections for game information and wiki information, just make it links to useful information and brief descriptions of what you'll find. I don't know if that would help the main page, but it would help me. --_K 22:36, 6 April 2013 (BST)

Hmmmm... I'll see if I can mock something up. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 23:21, 6 April 2013 (BST)

If you do, I got some thoughts on content, just not sure how to go about making a public discussion type page or if it even should be on the front end... --_K 02:23, 7 April 2013 (BST)

Whip together some text. Even if you don't pretty it up, if you put down some ideas for the text that are useful, we can run with those. Coming up with useful stuff to put on the front page was a major problem before. —Aichon— 05:46, 7 April 2013 (BST)

There was a time not long ago where we tried to redesign the main page. All that happened was nothing got changed, except the community sections you seem to value (and I worked prettye hard to put on the main page) being pushed further down the screen where no one would read them. Merry Christmas A ZOMBIE ANT 14:01, 7 April 2013 (BST)

A Question

Is Sexualharrison allowed to vote kill on my suggestion because "fuck you"? Lpha 15:25, 6 April 2013 (BST)

Suggestion votes need only justification, and even that is often waived as justification is easy to produce. There is effectively no check for the validity of the justification, as a.) sys-ops are not moderators and b.) civility is no requirement on UDWiki (such a policy has been shot down). tl;dr: Yes, Harrison is allowed to. -- Spiderzed█ 16:17, 6 April 2013 (BST)

There's actually the inane/invalid vote clause, if you look under voting rules. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 17:10, 6 April 2013 (BST)

Yes, and it states: Votes that do not have reasoning behind them are invalid. You MUST justify your vote. "Because fuck you" may be poor form, but is some sort of reasoning/justification and thus formally sufficient. -- Spiderzed█ 17:19, 6 April 2013 (BST)

You have to look down a little further. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 17:35, 6 April 2013 (BST)

Is this regarding the "inane vote removed" example? Because, while possibly rude, Harrison's vote isn't "inane" - it was caused by a conversation on his talk page. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 20:17, 6 April 2013 (BST)

Am I mistaken or are suggestions at this point exercises in futility because Kevan's not updating the game?-- 21:25, 6 April 2013 (BST)

You're not mistaken. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 22:22, 6 April 2013 (BST)

I kind of view the suggestions system as a mini-game or side quest or something. Its fun for some. Some take it way more seriously than they should and others (like me) completely just completely ignore it. ~ _{23:04, 6 April 2013 (UTC)}

finally some drama. and where is SA when I need him? i think i stole that one from him. --User:Sexualharrison00:56, 7 April 2013

Allowed to? Sure. Is it valid? Honestly, I don't know, and I wasn't planning to try and sort it out unless it would actually make a difference in the outcome of the vote. Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the troll vote clause in the Suggestions' rules, since that's a sysop power that applies in this case, and it allows sysops to act as moderators in situations such as these, which is extremely odd. Of course, that rule hasn't been used in years, and with good reason. —Aichon— 05:45, 7 April 2013 (BST)

Answer: No, he can't. But nothing will happen unless a sysop strikes it, which they most likely won't. (also: the rules say sysops can strike troll votes, the word inane isn't codified in the rules anywhere, only the suggestion). A ZOMBIE ANT 14:05, 7 April 2013 (BST)

You'd be suprised how unproblematic this was when I used it, or other sysops, even a Vista, even a direct precedent (if one cares about precedents here). I even got away with it on Iscariot (although I think there was an associated vandal case). You have people who don't care about their vote, who get their vote struck; thus they don't care and there wasn't any problem. (Exception, Iscariot. But Iscariot is Iscariot.) Any molehills here aren't mountains. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 14:32, 7 April 2013 (BST)

Yep, pretty much. Get some teeth, ops! A ZOMBIE ANT 08:28, 8 April 2013 (BST)

ah more arm chair syoping. too bad you have no say whatsoever anymore. aww.--User:Sexualharrison08:31, 8 April 2013

Just looking to watch more drama bud, as you wanted yourself. don't get all shitty with me busta A ZOMBIE ANT 15:11, 8 April 2013 (BST)

but I love pooping all over your years of hard work here on UDWIKI fucknuts.--User:Sexualharrison12:51, 9 April 2013

If you'll notice, he did give a justification in his original vote, to wit: "Meh", which translates to "this is a bland and uninspiring suggestion, and I could either vote keep or kill, so don't give me any shit about my vote, or it may change".
Or were those just the voices in my head? -- boxy 10:32, 8 April 2013 (BST)

which was my point exactly.--User:Sexualharrison15:01, 8 April 2013

--User:Sexualharrison16:24, 8 April 2013

In the end though, isn't the definition of "Troll" a society generated norm? A benchmark reliant on a moving target of zeitgeist? If I say that I find Sexualharrison's vote within bounds, appropriate and entertaining, am I not pulling the pole in the opposite direction of it being justifiably called a troll vote in our community? Assuming so, I found it within bounds, appropriate and entertaining.-- 20:18, 9 April 2013 (BST)

Wasn't talking to you

Was talking to the sysop team as an entity and anybody who backed both decisions i.e. Karek, Boxy, Rev, Spiderzed, Rosslessness, etc.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 03:27, 10 April 2013 (BST)

By the way, having looked at the list of current sysops, you are literally the only one who I actually trust to be reasonable. <3 --Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 03:31, 10 April 2013 (BST)

...

I hope you can understand why I thought you were talking to me, since I was the one that voiced the "sysops are not moderators" reasoning which you seemed to be responding to. Even with having thought that, however, you're still cool in my book. —Aichon— 03:39, 10 April 2013 (BST)

Yeah, sorry, those were separate statements, apologies for the confusion. What I was getting at is that sysops aren't obliged to never moderate or be political, they should do whatever helps the wiki run most efficiently. In some cases, that requires moderating content. (I.e. to be an effective administrator it is also sometimes necessary to be a moderator.)--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 04:15, 10 April 2013 (BST)

No problem, and I can agree with that. If the need arises, sysops have a higher responsibility to do what's best for the wiki, even if it means overstepping their bounds and being taken to A/M. But moderating other users should be reserved for extraordinary circumstances that warrant such an activity, and should instead be left to the users themselves on a regular basis, particularly in the case of personal disputes, which are best resolved through dialog between the involved parties. When Lpha placed "Keep" before our votes without our permission, that was rightly excused as the newbie mistake it was. But his deciding to press the issue with Harrison and disregard what we told him about it being unnecessary, just so that he could see the Keep votes neatly lined up, created a problem entirely of his own making. Of course, a normal person, newbie or not, would either shrug it off or seek to address it with the other party, either of which would be acceptable outcomes.

Instead, rather than shrugging it off or talking with Harrison to resolve the issue he had created, his first resort was to ask me whether or not Harrison was breaking any rules. Who does that? And when he found out that there was a rule Harrison might be breaking, he went to another sysop and asked him to deal with Harrison. Newbie or not, it's poor form to drag others into a personal disagreement so that they can beat up your opponent, rather than dealing with it yourself, and even more so if you later try to pit those people against each other by bringing in another when the first one doesn't go along with your plan.

So, not only is he trying to use a rule that I believe should be erased (I'm not assigning him any fault for that since he couldn't have known; I'm simply explaining my reluctance to use it), he's also made himself extremely unsympathetic by demonstrating poor form and doing anything but being willing to handle the problem himself. Thus, even if I did support the use of the rule, I'd be unlikely to exercise my discretion in using it here, since I believe that he created the justification that Harrison is using and now has a responsibility to handle it himself. That has nothing to do with him being a newbie or folks looking out for a clique of long-timers. It's because he didn't act like a decent person should have acted (neither did SH, for that matter, but I'm not making any moves to support SH either, instead just choosing to let them sort it out among themselves). —Aichon— 06:44, 10 April 2013 (BST)

Fair enough, sounds reasonable.--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 11:34, 10 April 2013 (BST)

I still can't believe all this crap over a meaningless suggestions vote. --User:Sexualharrison06:57, 10 April 2013

Would it be the wiki if it wasn't? Part of the charm of this place is its ability to crush souls under meaningless issues. —Aichon— 07:18, 10 April 2013 (BST)

really looking forward to what boxy has to say. think he will keep going down the line syops or get the hint?--User:Sexualharrison23:53, 10 April 2013

No clue at this point. He has quite awhile before the suggestion closes, so he could still go pretty far. —Aichon— 00:35, 11 April 2013 (BST)