Talk:Suggestions/2nd-Oct-2006

Fallback

Timestamp:	20:13, 1 October 2006 (BST)
Type:	New Suburbs
Scope:	Malton.
Description:	The cordon around the city has always been precarious, with frequent zombie and survivor breakouts. The military have decided to pull back to a purpose built security wall, beyond the south-eastern industrial zone and the north-western green belt. NecroTech scientists applaud the decision, keen to observe zombie behaviour in various urban and rural landscapes. Key Addition: 44 New "Suburbs", expanding evenly on all sides of the current map. These suburbs represent the heavily industrialised zone of south-east Malton, and the north-west green belt, made up of fields, farms and a few outlying villages and hamlets. Additionally, remains of the original military cordon include watch-towers, bunker complexes and NecroTech facilities. Many buildings in the green belt would distinctly not be connected to the Malton Free Running network, although they may be part of their own, smaller networks. Current Locations: Industrial Zone Of the existing locations, only the following could exist in the industrial zone: power station, wasteland, auto repair shop, arms, fire station, junkyard, police department, railway station, warehouse, factory, carpark, street, fort/armoury (ie there could be a third), building (representing offices), NecroTech building, monument, hospital. Additionally, both both the 2-square power station and mall (that currently exist on the eastern border of Malton) may be expanded to 4 squares. Current Locations: Green Belt Of the existing locations, only the following could exist in the green belt: mansion, arms, bank, church, fire station, hospital, police department, school, carpark, cemetery, monument, park, street. Illustrative New Industrial Zone Locations Cordoned Street: Max VS 'cades. Anyone can attack through the 'cades in either direction, with any weapon type (n% reduced chance to hit), non-powerable, no items, no door. Represents anti-pedestrian military construction: concrete blocks, barbed wire etc. Prisons, as per the Peer Reviewed suggestion. (I know one shouldn't link suggestions, but in this case I think an exception is reasonable.) Malton Airport: Terminal: large building acts as Mall, but does not have a Gun Store or a Hardware Store, and the Tech Store does not have a radio transmitter. Control Tower: single building; allows binocular use; items: radio transmitter, portable generator, binoculars, flare gun. Runway: open location Illustrative New Green Belt Locations Field: acts as street / park Reservoir: Survivors with Body Building and Zombies with Lurching Gait can enter this square at a cost of 4AP. (Combat, revives, DNA extraction, healing and so on: presumed to happen on shoreline, small island, whatever.) Idea that a map could create a reservoir either as a movement barrier, or with an island in the middle - as a prestige location. Observation Tower: Max. VS 'cades; binocular use; door; max. internal pop. 5 (+5 zombies); tall building (suicide); items: Flare Gun, Binoculars, Radio. (You can't 'cade a tower much, and there's not much room in it: you'd get a message - can't enter - overcrowded.) Water Tower: Max. VS 'cades; binocular use; door; max. internal pop. 10 (+10 zombies). (You can't 'cade a tower much, and there's not much room in it.) Military Compound: No doors; initially padlocked shut (wirecutters to open); items: Pistol, Flare Gun, Pistol Clips, Flak Jacket, Fuel Can, Portable Generator, Radio, Radio Transmitter. NecroTech Compound: No doors; initially padlocked shut (wirecutters to open); items: DNA Extractor, First Aid Kit, GPS Unit, NecroTech Revivification Syringe; no NecroNet, but has syringe manufacture and revivication of a brain rot zombie if powered. Farm: Beer, Wine, Book, Wirecutters, Crowbar, Length of Pipe, Kitchen Knife, Shotgun, Shotgun Shells, Fuel Can, Portable Generator. Suburban Housing: Book, Newspaper, Baseball Bat, Kitchen Knife, Mobile Phone. (All booze taken during military occupation.) Bunker Complex: Allows firing through 'cades if at VSB or less (n% reduced chance to hit, must be a firearm); always shows population outside building (viewports: this square only); always surrounded on eight sides by open locations; items: Pistol, Shotgun, Shotgun Shells, Pistol Clips. Malton University (tbc). Gameplay Issues GPS co-ordinates would have a new range from (-10,-10) to (109,109). In other words, (0,0) would not move and would still be in the top left square of Dakerstown. That is the start of Malton proper, with the green-belt to the north and west. (The alternative is to re-write loads of pages on the wiki - not a nice prospect.) Roleplay: Set yourself up in the countryside, running a local shop for local zombies. Expand your mind at Malton University, or try to get a flight out of this hellhole at Malton airport. Naming issues: it doesn't make much sense to name fields, so some of the landscape might be a little monotonous. Meta-Roleplay: it's been suggested that an implementation of the The Underworld could explain how zombies and survivors had broken through the cordon (via the sewers and subway tunnels) and forced an organised military retreat and regroup, but hey, you wouldn't catch me linking suggestions (much). Concept Art The grey line indicates the industrial zone, an expansion of the city of Malton. The green line indicates the green belt of the city of Malton. Author Credits: Funt Solo, Gene Splicer (with thanks to Marie & Xoid). Disclaimer: Please consider the finer details (the new buildings and exactly how they work) as illustrative ideas, rather than a concrete part of the suggestion. It's clear that on the slim chance this is ever implemented that [he whose name must not be spaketh] would pick and choose the groovy from the nerf-worthy.

Keep Votes

1. Hmmmm - I like this. I think it would be a good change but I have a few problems with it- barricade limits, espically seeing as they are under VS+2. There shouldn't be barricade limits and max lightly is too unfair. The bunker- nice idea that its like an armoury only easier for me to spell, but the reduction of percentages is too much and unfair but other than that I love this suggestion. It would be great if put into the game :) --Marie^{The Grove} 21:09, 1 October 2006 (BST)

   Tweaked - Barricade limits on towers because I figured you can't 'cade a tower much, but upped now to VS, and the bunker % reduction for firing through the 'cades changed to undefined. --Funt Solo 22:26, 1 October 2006 (BST)

2. Keeps! - We need more of these Location Alteration suggestions!--Canuhearmenow ^Hunt! 21:15, 1 October 2006 (BST)
3. Keeps! - I was going to suggest something very similar a while back, and with the same flavour (Military pull back due to increase in zombie numbers). The main problem I see is that the top- and left-most suburbs would hit negative numbers. Renaming the coords to give the new upper left 0,0 would kind of mess with current records. I still think it's a good idea, but wanted to resolve those issues first. I don't see that it needs to be a green belt though... A better option might be having the upper left be a kind of farmland while extending the lower right out into more city. I have put a lot of thought into this for my own suggestion, maybe we could compare notes? --Gene Splicer 12:46, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   I like the idea that it's not uniform - with maybe farm on one side and more city on the other - makes it less square, kind of thing. Please feel free to add signed notes to the suggestion, that way we can keep track of changes to the text. The re-setting of (0,0) is a problem - not so much in-game, as it's just re-setting the array - but outside the game - you've got maps, this wiki - all co-ords being re-written would be a pain. Perhaps the military only pull back on the east and south - and maybe by two suburbs (20 squares), instead of what I've got right now. That way - (0,0) stays right where it is. --Funt Solo 13:12, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   Mind you, the current occupiers of the centre 4 'burbs might not like that they won't be the centre anymore.--Funt Solo 13:14, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   Hurts the flavour though. The best resolution I could come up with was to take the unprecedented step of notifying people of the update a week or two in advance giving them time to update to the "new currency". This would be by news update along the lines of "Worried by the continuing growth of the zombie population, the Military have notified survivors that they will be expanding the quarantine zone. Survivors have been advised via radio communication that the pullback is scheduled for (date), and that the GPS system is to be updated accordingly". This could be accompanied by actual radio messages on restricted bands of increasingly frantic miltary personal detailing the fall of the quarantine edges. --Gene Splicer 13:35, 2 October 2006 (BST) And aye, the RRF would throw a fit if we only expanded one side--Gene Splicer 13:42, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   Let me know what you think so far, Gene - anything to add / alter? --Funt Solo 18:18, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   I'd be absolutely fine with that and negative numbers, it's nitpicking voters I'm worried about :P We could possibly justify it by making the green sides be the north west, and say that 0,0 is the nothwesternmost point of "Malton Proper" --Gene Splicer 18:31, 2 October 2006 (BST) Also, what do you think of below? --Gene Splicer 18:32, 2 October 2006 (BST)

Check out my highly artistic concept art for the south-east argument. --Funt Solo 13:46, 2 October 2006 (BST)

I put the building zone in the north-west, because if it is an industrial zone (and I like that idea), then that's where it would be in the UK (prevailing winds and all that). Oh, that's in the second of my highly artistic maps. --Funt Solo 14:00, 2 October 2006 (BST)

Worth mentioning: This would also make it much easier to implement the well-received Prison idea and my (currently under development) Malton University suggestion. Instead of having to eat other squares, they could be implemented into the new suburbs with a minimum of fuss.

Additionally, if the Underworld suggestion was implemented, this could be implemented afterwards, with the Underworld appearance being the catalyst for the fallback (zombies and survivors discover sewers, military discovers shortly afterwards that their old quarantine zone is suddenly full of holes) --Gene Splicer 18:12, 2 October 2006 (BST)

I'm sure [he who cannot be named] will just love our "months to implement" suggestions. ;) --Funt Solo 18:30, 2 October 2006 (BST)

1. Undecided - Though I like it, it seems a big change! I would maybe suggest it without the building type rules, and if it makes it to Peer Reviewed suggest them seperately? --Karloth vois ^RR 16:06, 2 October 2006 (BST)
2. Stop using HTML - Before I disembowel you all. Now, onto the suggestion; it's good. There is no need for a server reset, only a slight bit of downtime. I do have to ask though, what is the problem with having -10,-10 as being possible coordinates? It would be a simple matter to code, I've done it dozens of times before, so why bother "renaming" existing coordinates thus necessitating that damn near every page and resource be rewritten? –Xoid ^S•T•FU! 17:58, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   Because it looks ugly :P If people are ok with it, hooray, but it at least needed to be thought about. --Gene Splicer 18:06, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   Re - I just figured there would be strong resistance to negative co-ordinates on roleplay / understanding terms. I know they'd be easy (easier) to code in, and I'd understand them no problem in-game. Am I underestimating the average UD player? (What's wrong with using HTML? Genuine question.) --Funt Solo 18:08, 2 October 2006 (BST)

You're not supposed to cater to people who type with their face, we're supposed to cater to the average person. If they can understand [0,0] and [1,1], surely they can understand [-1,-1]. Sure there are going to be some who are so confused by this that their head explodes, but they're the sort that are confused by any sentence consisting of more than four words. I don't see this as being an issue.

WikiML. Use the builtin syntax, it's much easier, and less annoying. There are rare occasions when HTML is necessary, but obviously I'll overlook those. –Xoid ^S•T•FU! 21:02, 2 October 2006 (BST)

I'll go with the negatives, see how it flies. And WikiML...I'll learn it as I go, although god only knows what it's doing to the DOM - and where did CSS go? (I digress.) --Funt Solo 21:07, 2 October 2006 (BST)

MediaWiki:Common.css. I can't remember if it's protected or not, but if you want some classes or other modifications, feel free to request them. BTW, DOM? I'm not familiar with that acronym. Care to enlighten me? –Xoid ^S•T•FU! 21:14, 2 October 2006 (BST)

DOM - Document Object Model - what the browser creates that you may then manipulate with (external, you'd hope) JavaScript. If you're interested, then the book DOM Scripting (Keith, 2005) is a modern, progressive approach to (whisper it's name) DHTML. --Funt Solo 21:19, 2 October 2006 (BST)

Oh - I'm an idiot - the DOM is intact - it's all just converted into HTML by the browser anyway. Still, that's a good book. --Funt Solo 21:34, 2 October 2006 (BST)

Now I remember! Damnit, I've been so overloaded with acronyms recently that I'm forgetting the ones I don't reference often. –Xoid ^S•T•FU! 12:24, 3 October 2006 (BST)

God we're nerds --Gene Splicer 12:38, 5 October 2006 (BST)

1. Keeptacular!!!- I was thinking of something like this, but I was never going to submit it. Suffice to say I like it.--Grigori 21:23, 2 October 2006 (BST)
   

Kill Votes
Would you mind if I worked a little with the bunkers? I have some ideas for them. --Gold Blade^{Vote Abstain!} 22:27, 1 October 2006 (BST)

If by that you mean post your alteration suggestions here, then knock yourself out. --Funt Solo 22:33, 1 October 2006 (BST)

Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Author-Actually, I think it's a bit silly. What do other folk think? --Funt Solo 20:21, 1 October 2006 (BST)

   I'm confused. (It doesn't take much) Is this your suggestion? :? --Marie^{The Grove} 21:11, 1 October 2006 (BST)

   Oh, yes - that should be an Author-Actually - I'll change it. More silliness. --Funt Solo 22:11, 1 October 2006 (BST)

I think what we could use here is a section for suggestions that would obviously (or most likely) require a reset (or UD to get out of beta).

As for the suggestion, I don't think it adds much to the game. I liked the idea for the river through the city and I like the idea of "spicing" up the city with new building types and such, but I don't really see adding more suburbs OUTSIDE the city. And the new locations don't work too well.-Pesatyel 03:29, 2 October 2006 (BST)

I don't really like this idea myself. However, adding things to the game doesn't require a server reset, or a move from Beta. I don't know how you arrived at those conclusions. --Funt Solo 08:43, 2 October 2006 (BST) [programmer by trade]

I DID say "most likely." This is a pretty significant change to the game requiring the addition of a LOT of information (4400 new map squares, connections to the main city, etc.) to the server, not to mention all the "new" stuff. This IS the kind of suggestion that would best be included with a server reset or a move out of beta.-Pesatyel 09:21, 2 October 2006 (BST)

Well, we could argue that point back and forth all day. I'm not sure what you mean by reset, actually. If you mean "all current information would require to be destroyed - including all players' character info.", then you're just wrong, plain and simple. If you mean that the server software would need a lot of additions made to it, then I agree with you - but I'm not sure why that's being put up as a negative. It has information added to it every day. --Funt Solo 10:04, 2 October 2006 (BST)

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Final Grab

Timestamp:	08:26, 2 October 2006 (BST)
Type:	New Attack
Scope:	Zombies
Description:	Requires Ankle Grab. Costs 3 AP. Bonus +5% (for surprise) to hit. When a zombie is killed, they can make 1 Claw attack, against anyone that attacked them. The person must stay in the square after attacking the zombie and be present when the zombie dies in order for the zombie to attack them. The person that killed the zombie is always the first available target for Final Grab. EDIT: When the zombie dies, the ATTACK [target] with [Final Grab (x%, y dam)] would appear next to the STAND button until the zombie uses the attack or the page is refreshed and all viable targets have left the square. Example: Tom, Dick and Harry are in a square with a zombie. Tom and Dick attack the zombie while Harry heals himself. Tom kills the zombie. The zombie can then make a Final Grab against Tom OR Dick, but not Harry. If either or both leave before the zombie can attack (even if they return), the zombie cannot make use of the skill against them. Alternately, if Dick attacks the zombie then leaves and returns as Tom kills the zombie, the zombie cannot attack Dick. EDIT: If the zombie doesn't have AP, they obviously can't use the skill. Just like everything else that requires AP.

Keep Votes

1. Nope- No auto-attacks. Just no. They aren't fair. With the edits I like it.--Grigori 00:41, 3 October 2006 (BST)

   Please explain how this is an "auto-attack."--Pesatyel 04:45, 3 October 2006 (BST)

   I apologize. It isn't an auto attack any more. I'll change my vote my vote. Errr... how do you cross out something?--Grigori 01:39, 4 October 2006 (BST)

   Use this <s> before the line and this </s> after.
   

Kill Votes
Against Votes here
Spam/Dupe Votes

1. Spam It's an auto-attack. I don't like those. Plus, you're effectively (potentially) gifting the zombie a free (albeit one-off) 3AP, which breaks the 50AP per day rule. Survivors can't defend themselves whilst sleeping (and you'd think that they'd wake up whilst being bitten) - but that's the game mechanics. It's turn-based. Both sides have to live with that. --Funt Solo 08:49, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   How is it an auto attack if it costs 3 AP and the zombie has to CHOOSE to do it? The only difference is that it happens AFTER the zombie dies but BEFORE they stand up again. The zombie has to attack just like any other attack. If the zombie doesn't have the AP, they can't attack. I kinda figured that went without saying. But I SHOULD remind you that if you have 1 AP, you CAN use multi-AP costing skills (you just go into negative). As for the rest, I read it as not liking the hit bonus, but you didn't say as such so I can't really tell.--Pesatyel 09:14, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   You sound angry - am I imagining that? Anyway - I misunderstood it, which you should take as positive feedback - if one person misunderstands there's a good chance several will. Okay, so it's not an auto-attack. However, the reward for killing a zombie is that they can't attack you until they stand up, and this breaks that. You have placed some conditions on it, though - so I'm not sure how I'd vote if this came up. I'd probably abstain until I'd seen other voters' reasoning, then come down off the fence. --Funt Solo 09:58, 2 October 2006 (BST)

   Heh, sorry a tad "angry." The main problem is that nobody really helps discuss the suggestions here on the discussion page, instead waiting until it goes up to vote. Thanks for the feedback. I agree, it IS a little hard to see how the limitations will affect it (goes back to the "feedback" the discussion page doesn't give) to see how things could be adjusted. I don't believe there is a "specfic" rule about zombies NOT being able to attack while prone (especially if you consider the limitations I imposed). It could be "author bias," but I think the limitations are strict enough that it could work. What about making it ONLY useable against the person that killed the zombie? A lesser hit %?-Pesatyel 04:45, 3 October 2006 (BST)

   I think people are jumping to the conclusion that it's an auto-attack because you say "when the zombie is killed". Normally, a dead zombie gets no actions - but you're suggestion gives them one possible action. You need to make that clear. And yes, it should only be against the person who killed them - not all the attackers. Even then - people are going to Kill/Spam this (in my opinion) - because the reward for killing a zombie is being played with here. As for feedback on the discussion page - I think it's a matter of time - people don't have that much to waste - and a lot of people use the suggestions page to get their feedback before a revision. I know it's frustrating, but if that's the way the community wants to behave - there's not a lot you can do about it - if you can't beat 'em, and all that jazz. --Funt Solo 10:53, 3 October 2006 (BST)

Thanks for the help Funt. I guess it WASN'T clear enough since Grigori thought the same thing (about the auto-attack). And, yeah I was thinking it should just be against the killer (too complicated otherwise). On the bright side is that a LOT of Peer Rejected things have been added to the game already (Ankle Grab, for example). My main concern is that this is similar to the "Play Dead" type of suggestions that used to pop up frequently. Those would allow a zombie to voluntarily lie down and stand up at their leisure and thus be immune to attack when offline. I was hopping all the limitations would have canceled that. The basic idea for this skill is the surprise advantage. The zombie could just as easily stand up and attack using 2 AP instead of the 3 I proposed in the suggestion. I got the idea from playing Resident Evil lately. When you kill a zombie and he drops, but isn't dead yet. So you walk up and grabs you and starts biting your leg until you stomp on his head. The main difference is that the surivor wouldn't be able to defend himself from the attack (as in RE), but then UD doesn't allow that anyway. I'll probably let this sit here, in discussion, for a little while to see if I can get any more feedback.--Pesatyel 03:11, 4 October 2006 (BST)

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