View source for Talk:Honor Among Thieves Policy

==Hat Policy==
(AKA: "we want to play war, so let's not play war with each other... let's only play war with people who don't want to play war" so in other words this is a great way to cause a loss of interest in the game for new players and cause seasoned veterans to just quit. Congrats you found a way to get people to stop playing. Bra-vo. With that kind of attitude the game will be dead within a few years if not sooner.) {{unsigned|Jean Alec Keen|18:52, January 8, 2007}}

:Aw....did someone get their feelings hurt? --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 11:20, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

::I expected such a childish response. I have not been PK'd, however it isn't fair to go out and kill new players, they'll get frustrated and quit. Also...do the math. the number of revive syringes, while unlimited, cannot be made to keep up with the increased demand, with both zombies and PKers killing survivors we are effectively giving zombies the edge and allowing them to take over because no one will be able to revive anyone else. In addition you're cheating the zombies of their kills, which is the only way they can gain XP.

::So by PKing all over the map, you are robbing players of their fun of avoiding zombies, and cheating the zombies of the only way they can earn XP. Effectively this will make the game less fun for everyone. Some friends of mine are organizing a group and may go on strike if a compromise isn't reached. Keep your eyes open for a new wiki about this topic. My friend will be opening a new topic to offer solutions. --Jean Alec Keen

:::I never PKed someone with less than 12 levels... at least not that i can remember of. --{{User:Hagnat/sig}} 06:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

::: how does their level make it harder to kill them? Other than one more shotgun hit if they have bodybuilding, level is no defense against your cowardly attack. --[[User:Cman yall|Cman yall]] 05:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

::::Perhaps not, but you cannot speak for every PKer and I am certain they have killed someone with less than 12 --Jean Alec Keen

:::::''"I have not been PK'd"'' Shut up and play the game.  Come back and B'ch when you've actually had to suffer.  Until then, I'll keep listening to the people who've gotten our love. --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 04:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

:::::: "Come back and B'ch when you've actually had to suffer." Congrats and thank you for proving my point. --Jean Alec Keen

::::::: Dear, I was introduced to meta gaming by a young man who goes by the name "Burn Valentine".  He PKed my survivor while she was pulling generator watch on a phone mast almost a year ago.  Since then, not only have I greatly enjoyed this aspect of the game (First as a ''bounty hunter'', and then as a PKer), I have been thanked by pro-survivor groups for providing entertainment while the zombies were off on the other side of the map.
::::::: PKing is the direct result of the absence of measures designed to stop it. I don't know what point of yours I've some how proved by telling you to shut up, but I'm pretty sure it's a lame point that no one really cares about. --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 13:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

::::::::I agree that it is a result of the lack of effort to stop it. You seem to have misread what I have actually quoted there. Allow me to spell it out: "SUFFER". Plain and simple. It pisses people off and you admitted it by saying that.

::::::::I'm sure that my point would be considered by quite a few people:

::::::::"A flare was fired 7 blocks to the west and 13 blocks to the north. (22 hours and 54 minutes ago)
::::::::28.37 MHz: "I love PKing ive got an axe any PKer groups in Houldenbank" (19 hours and 46 minutes ago)
::::::::28.37 MHz: "what about that PKer alliance what a bunch of retards" (14 hours and 3 minutes ago)
::::::::28.37 MHz: "what are they going to do kill me" (14 hours and 2 minutes ago)
::::::::28.37 MHz: "the people of malton need not be afraid of sensless jerks" (14 hours and 1 minute ago)
::::::::28.37 MHz: "any PKer come up to me and id put my axe through his skull" (exactly 14 hours ago)
::::::::28.37 MHz: "those PKers think they are so tough killing innocents" (13 hours and 58 minutes ago)
::::::::28.37 MHz: "if i saw any PKer and id PKer him" (13 hours and 57 minutes ago)
::::::::28.37 MHz: "Since thats all we have for tonight PKer morons good night" (13 hours and 54 minutes ago)"

::::::::Now I'll admit that that person's grammar.....is a tad awful, but the point is in the message, not the grammar. Not everyone likes being PK'd, despite your 'thanks':"I have been thanked by pro-survivor groups for providing entertainment". If there were sections of the map in which PKing was off-limits and sections where everyone who enters is fair game....SURE! I'd be all for that, but treating everyone as fair game when a lot of us just want to kill zombies and avoid being killed ourselves is sure to just anger more and more players as it happens to them. -Jean Alec Keen

:::::::::Then suggest it on the Wiki. --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 16:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

==More shots from the peanut gallery==


I've played PvP in other games before, and for me a close-fought fight was fun, even if I lost. A cakewalk, on the other hand, is not much fun for either side. I'm not opposed to the idea of PvP - my zeds tear into survivors with relish, when they can find them, and my breathers enjoy nothing more than chopping up zombies with a fireaxe.

But what do you call it when you can stroll into a mall, see who's got the lowest HP (with diagnosis skill), finish them off in perhaps 10 AP, maybe as much as 30, and spend the rest of your AP getting away? Remembering that during this time, the victim can do absolutely nothing. Is that a glorious battle between two noble warriors? Or is it a wretched worthless whiny weasel move by someone who has no morals or honour? 

The only possible defense against PKers in Urban Dead is to be there when they attack and notice it before you die. '''There is a very slim chance of a battle being a contest at all, let alone a fair contest.'''

Thus I formed the opinion that Urban Dead PKers are a form of scum lower even than high-level noob killers in MMORPGs such as WoW or NWN. Or at least, that was my opinion. Now a lower form is added, as I find out that some of you pathetic stains on the underwear of humanity recognise how lame PKing is in this kind of game, and want to set up this protection scheme among yourselves.

Expressing what I really think of you people would probably get me vandal banned from the Wiki, and in some jurisdictions, thrown in jail.

--[[User:Cman yall|Cman yall]] 05:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

:Assumptions make you look like an arse, but I really don't feel like explaining just how very wrong you are.  Thought you should know. --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 06:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

::Don't feel like? Or can't? Remember, defending PKing is not sufficient here... what you need to defend is this OMFG pathetic whiny little "it's okay for us to PK everyone else, but we shouldn't get PKed ever, cause we're special" policy.
::As for me looking like an arse, well, wouldn't be the first time *shrug*. But I would still rather look like an arse, than like a probable 733t-haxxor, possible school-shooter-wannabe, who somehow feels like a winner when they kill someone who can't fight back - but will cry if they get killed. --[[User:Cman yall|Cman yall]] 07:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

:::Obviously, I can only speak for myself with this, but here goes. I started playing Sirens because I wanted to try something new. I'd already tried the pro-survivor route. All three main bits too: defender, healer, bounty hunter. Then I went the zombie route. So, you see, I actually tried the other two sides of the game, and to this day, still run a Dedicated Healer/Reviver and a Zombie alt, and encourage other PKers to do the same. In fact, I have an award that I hand out to PKers who play all three sides. See the last award on [http://redrum.soul-fantasy.net/site.php?reqpage=awards.html this page].	
:::As for the challenge, there is nothing more or less challenging about playing a PKer beyond the fact that people will hate and hunt you on all sides. Killing a fellow survivor is just as easy as walking out on the street and killing a zombie. Sure, some could say that a Survivor has to find an entry point, but we have to save AP for an escape route. It works out to about the same.
:::That said, I certainly hope you're not speaking of challenges, and at the same time, playing a pro-survivor alt. Survivors in this game have no challenge left unless they're sleeping with very few other survivors in a zombie infested suburb, like Ridleybank used to be. (Been there, done that.)
:::All that aside, I play a PKer because it is the one thing left to do that hasn't gotten old. Whether there is some actual dynamic or challenge there, I don't know, but I certainly haven't gotten tired of it. Maybe it's the constant influx of new people ready to pick a fight with me, automatically assuming I'm some low life piece of scum because of the way I choose to play a game.
:::Who knows? --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 07:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
::::I play both zombies and survivors, and it is true that things are easier for survivors, from what I've seen so far. Although my zombies are getting plenty of kills, my survivors don't die much, and when they do, they are usually revived within 24 hours (usually without even having time to look for a revive point). Still, judging by what just happened at Caiger Mall, I don't think you can fairly claim that there's no challenge at all for survivors. And even if there were no challenge left, that hardly defends PKing the defenseless to "make things more interesting". I'm sorry, but if playing the game the way you do makes people think you are low-life scum, then you might have to consider the possibility that in-game, you are acting like low-life scum.
::::But forget all that, let me quote myself...
::::'''Remember, defending PKing is not sufficient here... what you need to defend is this OMFG pathetic whiny little "it's okay for us to PK everyone else, but we shouldn't get PKed ever, cause we're special" policy.'''
::::--[[User:Cman yall|Cman yall]] 07:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::.....
:::::I had just noticed the edit you made and ended up with a few edit conflicts when you replied and then edited your reply. All I really need to do is say this: This policy isn't an "OMG DUN KILL US!" policy as you seem to think it is. It's an agreement among PKers to focus our attention on others rather than each other. It's an agreement to make sure Bounty Hunter's jobs aren't made any easier. Basically, it's here to make us more efficient. --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 08:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

==Insert derogatory heading here==
I'm sorry, Mia, I don't accept your explanation for why this policy is needed: "''It's an agreement among PKers to focus our attention on others rather than each other. It's an agreement to make sure Bounty Hunter's jobs aren't made any easier.''"  As a rule, PKers don't target each other; when they do, they're bounty hunters, yes?  Bounty hunters, by definition, will not adhere to this policy, else who would they hunt?  So this policy changes what, exactly?

But by its terms, as the posters above pointed out, it does appear that this policy is designed to provide PKers with immunity from PK -- immunity from the very thing they wantonly inflict on those you term "innocents".  That seems patently unfair to those of us who aren't PKers.  I don't know why you don't seem to see that.  And though you say there's something we're missing, something we don't understand that makes this policy not only fair but a good idea, you haven't yet explained to us what it is.

I can respect people who play the game the way you do.  Most PKers don't; we've had this conversation before.  They're not looking for a challenge, and they don't stay alive long enough to be hunted in any meaningful way, unless a bounty hunter happens upon them while they're scrounging for bullets.  Why do they deserve special treatment from you? -- {{User:Atticus Rex/Sig}} 11:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

:See, the problem is that this policy does NOT protect us from PKs.  Those of us who have signed it are working together, just like any Zombie or Survivor alliance.  That doesn't mean ALL PKers support it.  There are still plenty of PKing groups that ignore this policy, and kill everyone indiscriminately.  So there. --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 16:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
:P.S.  I never said this policy was needed.  Believe me, we were doing this kind of stuff long before I ever made this page.  In fact, if I remember correctly, the sole purpose of this page was to see who would freak out over it :P --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 16:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
::OK, I didn't realize that was the purpose of this policy.  If that was the missing piece of the puzzle, I guess I walked right into it.  It's a fair cop. :P
::Your response in the section below makes sense, even echoes some things I've said myself elsewhere.  Of course, I don't need to be PKed to prompt me to join a survivor group; all of my characters are in good groups already -- in fact, I believe that most of the time the shiny DEM or DHPD badge is the reason I get PKed.  It's also likely no coincidence that we have these discussions on the days that I get multiple-PKed (my DHPD alt was murdered three times yesterday, once ''during'' a zambah break-in); my frustration level is likely what prompts me to air my bitches.
::I'm glad we had this discussion.  I don't think I will go so far as to say that I like the drama of being PKed, but I have been doing some thinking about whether PKs add something to the game.  If I ever get a break from being murdered, I might well find the game kinda boring. -- {{User:Atticus Rex/Sig}} 19:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
:::There's something I never quite understood.  See, when I find myself down, I wait until my AP hits 50 again (after someone needles me) before I stand back up.  As you might imagine, I don't get how a person can get PKed more than once a day. :P --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 19:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
::::By way of explanation, let's say I log in at 10am with 50AP and find myself PKed.  Stand up, lurch one block to the RP, one click to get inside -- I'm at 47.  Wait 30 minutes for a revive, stand up again, free run one block to the hospital for a heal -- I'm at 46.  Log in two hours later at 12:30 and find myself dead again -- I'm at 50.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Assuming I log in frequently on the weekends (and I do) and stay up very late (which I did last night), I could conceivably have been PKed at 10am, 12:30, 3pm, 5:30, 8pm, 10:30, 1am, and 3:30am without ever going below 45AP.  No infections to cure, a fast revive point, lots of newbie survivors inside my complex so I let them heal me for XP, lurch+ankle grab, and when you get PKed as often as this character does, you don't have time to do any of the usual survivor stuff like find ammo or shoot zambahs or heal or cade or revive.  I haven't had more than a dozen bullets in my inventory for two weeks, and I rarely have time to find more than one FAK or syringe at a time.  If I have strong feelings about PKs, it's because this character has been completely neutralized by frequent griefing.  I still get enjoyment from playing him, but that's only because of the meta and the cool folks I hang with in the DHPD.  Otherwise I would have let him idle out before the New Year. -- {{User:Atticus Rex/Sig}} 21:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::Ah, I see.  I'm more apt to stand up, blow all my AP doing one thing or another, and then hang out in a building somewhere. --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 22:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::Different characters have different styles.  I log in and check on my dudes frequently, but I tend to make one 45-50AP run per day with my DEMs, unless shit happens or I'm swarming.  With my other characters, I may use 5 or 15 or 45AP when I log in, depends on what needs doing, or I may do nothing and save it up.  I have also discovered that I like working in the top half of my AP tank rather than the bottom half, because sometimes shit happens. -- {{User:Atticus Rex/Sig}} 22:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

==Time to Come Clean==

Why PK?. It's fun.  It's a lot of fun.  Through PKing, I've met more enjoyable players than I ever did via playing a Pro-survivor or a Zombie, and I've made a much larger impact on the game than I ever could have done as a Survivor. And then there's this:
Look at you, you so called "survivors".  You take the game so seriously, it's amazing.  Between going to war with each other because someone called another a "cum load", or completely failing to understand just how you survive in a Zombie Apocalypse Scenario, it's a wonder any of you play anymore.  Day in and day out, I see people whining and b'tching and moaning about something someone else did.
Then I figured it out.  You '''like''' drama!  It's the only logical conclusion.  If you didn't like it, you would have quit by now, right?  And it's not just you.  The zombies are this way too.<br/>
And that's why we're here, and if you don't like it, you can do one of two things.  The first of them is quit.<br/>
The second is this: get your act in order.  Stop fighting with each other, stop whining and b'tching and moaning to us (cause we're only amused by it). Stop complaining that the other side is getting all the buffs.  Find the survivor groups, regardless of their policies and interests, who are against Zombies and PKers, and ally yourselves with them.  Share information.  Become more united. Become more efficient...<br/>
...Because that's what we're doing, and I can tell you, we're having the time of our lives over here. --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 16:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

==Ok fine==

On reading all your argument, I can see what you mean. This is a good and wise policy - if you extend it to cover everyone in Malton. --[[User:Cman yall|Cman yall]] 04:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
:That would be against the very essence that is PKing :P --{{User:Mia Kristos/sig}} 11:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
::^He^ just doesn't get it, does he? --{{User:Dux Ducis/sig}} 00:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
::: No, I don't get it. Why you do it, and why you should be immune to it... I don't get either. But it'd be a boring world if we were all the same, I guess. --[[User:Cman yall|Cman yall]] 21:12, 27 March 2007 (BST)


==Information==
<u>All</u> people supporting the Honor Among Thieves Policy are muslim terrorists and have no sense of humour nor the Viennese snide humour. --{{User:Wasted wallaby/sig}} 13:45, 26 July 2008 (BST)
:This is true. The Philosophe Knights will never honor this policy. People with no sense of humor nor the sense of Viennese snide humor must be killed. But we did have a muslim ex-terrorist amongst us, so I'll not comment on that point. --{{User:DT/Signature}} 15:23, 26 July 2008 (BST)
:Actually, you know what? Reading the arguments that were held on this page is hilarious. Atticus Rex's argument, for example, is so badly informed I want to reply to it, and it's over a year old. More reason to believe that this is a policy without humor. --{{User:DT/Signature}} 15:27, 26 July 2008 (BST)
::Atticus is indeed quite the buffoon.....involuntarily. See Sir DT I have, long ago created some rather proletarian Template on that topic.
{{NPP}} --{{User:Wasted wallaby/sig}} 18:51, 26 July 2008 (BST)
:::May I make a point here? The way I see it, the Player Killers are another 'side' or Urban Dead. The pro-survivor groups don't kill each other, the zombies rarely do, and for them it's no big deal as it stands...so unless you're playing the psychotic killer as a RP choice, I see no issue with choosing to support this policy. Then again, I see no problem with not supporting this policy either. So why has there been such a discussion? -- {{User:Sage Carr/sig}} 21:31, 4 August 2008 (BST)
::::Exactly my opinion. I believe that there is a lot that speaks against it and I can see many, many things that speak for it....in my opinion. [[User:Wasted wallaby|Joe Random]] -- ரு:సుഎന്ന, 12th of Never 56849 (GTFO)

Though you know, Red Rum doesn't really support Honor Among Thieves, I dont know why their group name is listed. I was killed by one of their members and they didn't care. I even mentioned this and they said they dont go by it. You can check out their message boards. So Im not sure why their group name is listed?? --[[User:Anastasia DeCobray|Anastasia DeCobray]] 20:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)