View source for Template talk:BarricadePlan

==General==
Looking to start some discussion on ways to either improve the template or to include on a new template.  Obviously we would want something that is both easy to read at a glance, but also informative.  Some things that I think can be easily changed:
*Remove monuments as a separate color, since aside from tagging purposes they are no different from any other empty block.
*Remove the unique color for Auto Repair Shops since they have been deemed non-essential by UBP since the update.
*Maybe add a new color to represent [[dark]] buildings on plans?

Again I'm looking for input on changes, and current plan templates that people like that we could use as a starting point for a template that can be used for all suburbs. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 09:55, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:I'm not sure about the Auto-repair change. They are still the best place to get fuel, and as such are important in keeping a suburb running. They may be less important to low-level users, but to a team trying to operate a mall or an NT, more so.--{{User:Grungni/sig}} 11:10, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::That's kind of the point though. Since schools and fire stations are labeled as non-TRP building to keep at VSB for low-level characters, there isn't really a need for ARS to be kept at VSB other than location. Better to keep them protected so higher-level folks can get fuel without worrying as much about getting eaten overnight. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 11:44, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:::I see. But in combination of my suggestion below, a seperate colour would remain valuable even for EHB buildings, hence the misunderstanding. --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 11:48, 20 October 2009 (BST)

Really, I don't think that there was any need for a change, and was surprised that anyone would wanted it changed. I think that it's fine just the way it is. If anyone is interested, I could create an alternitive template made with suggestions as they come up, just to see what we have as it goes along.... -[[User:Poodle of doom|Poodle of doom]] 13:38, 20 October 2009 (BST)

:I say go for it, the more examples the easier to see how best to improve it. {{User:The_Rooster/Sig}} 16:11, 20 October 2009 (BST)

::Noted. See my latest comments below.

I'd like to see this template receive some attention to make it more readable where possible, and maybe look nicer. You might need to phase over plans to a new template though, as it sounds like some of the changes being discussed would break the current usage. I'd like to put in my two cents into the template itself once you settle on a new scheme.

To address your points:
*Yeah that makes sense.
*Fuck the UBP, it's just one methodology for creating cade plans. It shouldn't have a bearing on a template intended for any cade plan. Instead you should go by TRPs. ARS's are important, and schools are not (I mean seriously UBP, schools are ''essential''?!? pff)
*A reasonable idea, though it should be reasonably subtle.
{{User:The_Rooster/Sig}} 16:11, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::I figured that we would probably have to create a new template once we get it nailed down what everyone wants to see as far as changes. I would like to go by TRPs, but then we have to come to a consensus as to which buildings are TRPs. I think everyone agrees that PDs and hospitals are, but what about ARS? Factories? Fire Stations? --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 20:01, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:::Check [[Tactical Resource Point|the article]]. On the other hand, if a certain scheme wants to highlight building type X I guess they should be able to. So it makes sense to include whatever is needed. Let's see what people want from the template first though, otherwise we're speculating on the design based on speculation about the specification. That wouldn't end well :) {{User:The_Rooster/Sig}} 20:12, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::::The problem I have with the current UBP, is that it goes against the meaning of [[Tactical Resource Point]]. Tactical means just that: Tactically important. If it's important, it is NOT the place to have your weakest defences. I understand the need for easily accessible point to facilitate those without free running, but a newbie won't have much understanding of the wiki and BP's in the first place, so won't expect anything. The people who use and enforce BPs are generally the groups that keep a suburb in order. For that, having to replace the [[generator]] in your hospital every two days isn't a very efficient strategy, especially if the same goes for your factory. In suburbs with multiple versions of TRPs, leaving several at low cades might be nice to new users, but if not, keep it high. People who can't get in will automatically migrate to another suburb. (I'll post this rant in the UBP discussion as well, as it belongs there) --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 09:53, 21 October 2009 (BST)

==Building type colours for EHB buildings==
One thing lacking in the current template is the ability to distinguish between building types for buildings marked unenterable, these are all yellow. I think the designation between enterable/unenterable should be seperate from the type designation. Maybe something like a dashed border for an enterable building and a solid border for an unenterable building, with the colours of the cell the same regardless of barricade level? --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 11:10, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:That is a good point. Or perhaps something along the lines of an 'X' in the block for EHB and blank for VSB. Definitely something that would help. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 11:42, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::An example of what I have in mind:
::{| cellpadding=3 border=2 style="background:#646464; text-align:center" 
| style="border:2px solid #0000FF; color: #000000; background-color: #DDDDFF;" title="{{{text00}}}" | EHB PD
| style="border:2px dashed #0000FF; color: #000000; background-color: #DDDDFF;" title="{{{text00}}}" | VSB PD
|-
| style="border:2px solid #FF9999; color: #000000; background-color: #FF9999;" title="{{{text00}}}" | EHB H
| style="border:2px dashed #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: #FF9999;" title="{{{text00}}}" | VSB H
|} --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 11:47, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:::The solid/dashed line is a great idea.  It works better with a dark color as the border instead of a white line.  Also, the barricade plan is currently cluttered with colors.  I feel that only PDs, Hospital, NTs and Malls should have a distinct color.  Maybe blue, red, purple and green?  And I agree there should be some way to designate in the barricade plan that a building should be left barricaded and dark.--{{User:Giles Sednik/sig}} 14:45, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::::Another option is to dispense with the current two-colour schemes for PD's and fire stations altogether, and have a single border colour denominating the barricade level: absent for none, dashed for VSB and solid for EHB. The colours can be drawn from the [[Uniform Color Policy]] (and I have preference for the 'Prettier by Name' versions). It would look something like this:
::::{| cellpadding=3 border=2 style="background:#646464; text-align:center" 
| style="border:2px solid #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: LightSkyBlue;" title="Unenterable Police department" | EHB PD
| style="border:2px dashed #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: LightSkyBlue;" title="Enterable Police department" | VSB PD
| style="color: #000000; background-color: LightSkyBlue;" title="Open Police department" | Open PD
|-
| style="border:2px solid #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: Pink;" title="Unenterable Hospital" | EHB H
| style="border:2px dashed #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: Pink;" title="Enterable Hospital" | VSB H
| style="color: #000000; background-color: Pink;" title="Open Hospital" | Open H
|-
| style="border:2px solid #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: Tomato;" title="Unenterable Fire department" | EHB FD
| style="border:2px dashed #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: Tomato;" title="Enterable Fire department" | VSB FD
| style="color: #000000; background-color: Tomato;" title="Open Fire department" | Open FD
|-
| style="border:2px solid #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: Plum;" title="Unenterable NecroTech" | EHB NT
| style="border:2px dashed #FFFFFF; color: #000000; background-color: Plum;" title="Enterable NecroTech" | VSB NT
| style="color: #000000; background-color: Plum;" title="Open NecroTech" | Open NT
|}
::::We may have to play with the border-colour a bit for optimum visibility, but you get my idea I think. 

::::Dark buildings can be done by using a gray colour for the text instead of black maybe? --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 15:36, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:::::Grungi, check out some examples I put together in my [[User:Giles_Sednik/Sandbox3|Sandbox]].  If you want to play around with the colors a little bit you can copy/paste and leave examples on the same page.  I kinda like the two-color scheme for buildings and the dashed line idea.  Let me know what you think.--{{User:Giles Sednik/sig}} 15:52, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::::::After thinking about it, the dashed line is really growing on me. Easy to understand at a glance. Great thinking guys. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 20:05, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:::::::I tentatively agree, but I'd prefer to see a full example plan first to be sure. {{User:The_Rooster/Sig}} 20:13, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::::::::Righto.  When I'm farting around tomorrow I'll put together a Foulkes Village example.  I'll base it on the assumption that people prefer to see a yellow background for EHB and that firestations are antiquated.  Perhaps I'll go with a lighter shade of yellow for VBS non TRC buildings.  And it seems factories and auto repair shops should at least be designated by letters, thanks for pointing out the article rooster.--{{User:Giles Sednik/sig}} 20:36, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:::::::::Personally, I'd avoid yellow and would go for something more neutral since the color of a block is now being used to denote the utility/type of the building, rather than the barricade level. While people may be used to yellow at this point, intuitively, I think it conveys the idea of designating something specific, whereas we're looking for a color that can be used to blanket characterize any non-TRPs. Something not as strong as yellow seems to be in order, otherwise people might wonder what the yellow buildings are, only to find out it's just the generic color assigned to buildings with low utility. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 00:11, 21 October 2009 (BST)
::::::::::Ok, just to illustrate what something ''might'' look like, here's a quick test case I rigged up for [[Darvall Heights#Darvall Heights Barricade Plan|Darvall Heights]]. If you check my [[User:Aichon/Sandbox#Barricade_Template_Test|Sandbox]] I also have a larger version with all of the building names, since someone earlier mentioned that idea and I kinda liked it (EDIT: I rigged this one up to display building names on mouseover). Darvall's barricade plan includes quite a few buildings that deviate from the [[UBP]], so it makes for a decent non-conforming test case. I made factories brown and ARS orange. I made the Mall white to match the suburb map. All of those are obviously subject to change. Also, when you give hospitals borders, they look like FD, so it's probably for the best that we don't have FD on the map.{{User:Aichon/Signature}} 01:58, 21 October 2009 (BST)
:::::::::::I've removed the map from here since my later tweaking caused it to take up way too much space on this page. Please see my [[User:Aichon/Sandbox#Barricade_Template_Test|Sandbox]] instead, since it's still over there. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 08:26, 21 October 2009 (BST)
:::I like the color variation, but the white borders bother me. It almost makes the empty blocks easier to read.  I don't see any distiction between EHB and VSB though.  Then again I'm at work right now and this computer is all kinds of funky. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 06:36, 21 October 2009 (BST)
::::Just checked out the larger version in your sandbox. Love it. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 06:38, 21 October 2009 (BST)
:::::I agree, especially the full-map version (last on the page) is very clear. Doing away with seperate colours for FDs is counter-intuitive, but pretty logical, and solves a lot of the problems I was having :-) --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 11:04, 21 October 2009 (BST)

I made a draft version for Shackleville (in hindsight, not the best choice because of its low number of TRPs, but whatever), check it out in my [[User:Grungni/Sandbox1|sandbox]]. I'm not yet happy about the colour scheme, but you get the general idea I think. --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 11:02, 21 October 2009 (BST)

== POV ==

I couldn't care less what colours survivors use on their cade plans so long as it's legible to the colour-blind in the same way that the scents were.

Given that any barricade plan is POV they have no business being on suburb pages at all, hopefully we'll be removing them at some point in the near future. -- {{User:Iscariot/Signature}} 16:00, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:Colour-blind is a good point, though the current version isn't very accessibly either in that regard. The dashed-border idea will actually improve on that, I think. The POV thing is valid, though one could argue that it's easy for zombies to know where there's the least wood to gnaw through before you get to the tasty BRAAAAAINS! --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 16:05, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::POV or not, it would good to improve the template.  And even if they are removed from displaying in the suburb page there will always be a link to it there and people will continue to use barricade plans.--{{User:Giles Sednik/sig}} 16:11, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:I would like to get the plans taken off the suburb pages as well and just leave a link. Or, create zombie barricade plans as has been done in suburbs like [[Ridleybank]]. The colour-blind argument is a good one though. Let us know how some of the various shades work and which ones need changing. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 20:08, 20 October 2009 (BST)

==stoopid question==

Probably cos its late but, does this allow for identifying building type '''and''' desired cade level as separate entities? There are a lot of reasons why 2 PD's (for example) might be wanting different cade levels and it would be important for a universal template to recognize this and be easy to implement for Tech idiots like me! --[[User:Honestmistake|Honestmistake]] 22:56, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:That is one of the issues being addressed above, yes. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 06:31, 21 October 2009 (BST)

==Template Creation (to view progress on the new template.....)==
At this point, Rooster agrees that building the template as suggetions are accepted by the community. If anyone disagrees with this let me know above, where I suggested this. I will personally head this up. Now, what does everyone think to maybe making the template use the suburb map, with the boarder of each square being various colors to represent how they should be barricaded? -[[User:Poodle of doom|Poodle of doom]] 23:33, 20 October 2009 (BST)
:Personally, I'm in favor of the dashed line suggestion that Grungni has been talking about above since it seems much more intuitive. I'd start with that and then go from there. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 23:48, 20 October 2009 (BST)
::Sounds like a good place to start. I will see what I can't do to implement this. It's a little late where I am now, and templates are a bitch for me, and take a while to code.... I will start on it tomorrow after I get out of work.... Maybe we'll acquire a few more suggestions in addition to this. Thanks! -[[User:Poodle of doom|Poodle of doom]] 02:22, 21 October 2009 (BST)
:::I tossed something together up above, incidentally. It's not perfect, but hopefully you can look at it and get some ideas for what you want to improve, instead of having to start with a blank slate. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 02:35, 21 October 2009 (BST)
::I'm all for more templates put up initially so that we can look at them and decide what we like and what we don't. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 06:42, 21 October 2009 (BST)
::::Aichon's template example is the best one so far.  Dude, that is fucking fantastic!!!  It conveys more useful information more effectively and it is easier to look at.  And the small example doesn't clutter a suburb page.  I have two tiny tiny improvement suggestions.  Include buildings left intentionally dark in the legend.  You could use [[User:Giles_Sednik/Sandbox3#Buildings_intentionally_left_dark|this color scheme]].  Also, I'd like the NT's to look a little more purple, like [[User:Giles_Sednik/Sandbox3#Necrotech|this]].  Other than that it's perfect.--{{User:Giles Sednik/sig}} 12:04, 21 October 2009 (BST)

At the moment, everybody seems to favour the borders for barricades model which makes setting the wanted level of cades nice whilst displaying key types of building easy. I'm all for that. Aichon's example is pretty awesome already, though I'd like to make the following suggestions/comments:
*The small version with the large dashed borders gives a crappy result since the boxes are so small, maybe reduce the width slightly, or change to a dotted border on the small version?
*The colour scheme is pretty good, but hospitals need to be more pink (EHB hospitals may as well be FS's at the moment) and I think factories could be differentiated more from generic buildings. NT's could probably be a shade purpler too.
*In general, do we like the relatively muted colours, or would we like a slightly more lush scheme like Giles'?
*Forts/Malls colour - I find it a bit boring personally, maybe a green or something.

And in general, there are still the following issues to address:
*Dark buildings, are we marking these? How would we in a way that doesn't interfere with the current setup?
*Non-TRPs that some cade policies care about (eg: FS's and schools), do we want to provide custom colours for those or not?
*Revive points. Are we marking these? If so, how? Just a textual footnote ("RP") or maybe marking them green in some fashion like some maps?
*Phone Masts, do we care enough to mark them in any way?

{{User:The_Rooster/Sig}} 13:56, 21 October 2009 (BST)
:Right, good points.  I copied Aichon's code and made a few changes.  Check it out [[User:Giles_Sednik/Sandbox2#Foulkes_Village_Barricade_Plan|here]].  Tried dots instead of dashes, made it a little bigger, added buildings intentionally left dark, (Darkened buildings aren't listed on the map unless intentionally left dark).and tweaked the colors a tiny bit.  In the small map, a phone mast could be designated with &#9742; as I've done in the example.  Similarly, buildings with the potential to be darkened could be denoted with something like &#9789;, also in the example.--{{User:Giles Sednik/sig}} 14:56, 21 October 2009 (BST)
::Not everyone can see those symbols. - [[User:Whitehouse]] 15:05, 21 October 2009 (BST)
:::Ah, good point.  Maybe we could find some very small icons which represent a phone tower and darkness, then include the images in the relevant buildings.--{{User:Giles Sednik/sig}} 15:25, 21 October 2009 (BST)
::::A more reliable way is a small image with a phonemast, the rest of the image transparent (png or gif), which is set as background-image for the cell, together with the background colour for the building-type. It will overlay the image on the backgroundcolour. That way, the type of building stays the same and recognisable, and text can be added without being hindered by the image. This is the same way it is done on the [http://map.aypok.co.uk/index.php map of malton]. --{{User:Grungni/sig}} 15:49, 21 October 2009 (BST)
:::::The setting of a background image is prevented. You could include the image with the cell's text at best. {{User:The_Rooster/Sig}} 16:06, 21 October 2009 (BST)
:Quickly going through all of The Rooster's points...
:*I'd suggest keeping the width of the border around 4px, since it provides good visibility. I like Giles' solution of using a dotted border instead of dashed, since it's more apparent which are which.
:*I agree with your stance on the hospital color. Making it pinker is fine by me, though recoloring the border might have a more profound effect since the color I have now is actually pinker than the current template's pink.
:*For the lush/muted idea, I'd meet in the middle with the color scheme. I think Giles' hospitals are too fuchsia, but his NT are spot-on, in my opinion.
:*For the Malls/Forts, I chose the white because that's how they show up in the suburb map, but I'm okay with changing it. I'll try a shade of green or green-yellow in my next version of the template.
:As for the issues that you mention need addressing...
:*None of the dark buildings are TRPs, so we could give them their own unique color (Giles' color is good, though I'll toy around with some others). The question then is if we want to do that, and I don't see a reason why not. It leaves more options open for alternative barricade plans.
:*For non-TRPs, aside from dark buildings, I don't think they should get colors. At that point, we'd have to provide colors for every single type of building, and that'd be a nightmare.
:*For RPs, we'd need an indicator other than the background color, otherwise we'd lose building type information. Giles and I used text, though I toyed with the idea of a bright green border as well. The problem with the green border is that many RPs are outside, and slapping a border on them indicates that they should be barricaded, which is inconsistent.
:*Regarding masts, I personally don't care, but I know that some do. Whatever designation we come up with for RPs should probably be shared for masts (i.e. use text/icons/etc. for both RPs and masts).
:I'll go ahead and post an updated version of my template with different colors and borders in a few minutes. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 17:39, 21 October 2009 (BST)