View source for UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/AegisTyra vs Dhavid Grohl

[[Category:Arbitration Cases]]

==[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]] versus [[Team Zombie Hardcore]] in general, and [[User:Duke_cage|Duke Cage]] and [[User:Dhavid_Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] in particular.==
The page [[Team_Zombie_Hardcore/MOST_SUCK_Page]] contains several slurs against myself, Violet Begonia, the Philosophe Knights, and Amber Waves of Pain. It makes several entirely unfounded accusations against myself of zerging, several attacks on the personal level, and an entirely unfounded accusation that I am pursuing a one-man war against TZH, and have been doing so since I first started playing Urban Dead. I request that all such deliberately inflammatory content be removed from the Team Zombie Hardcore page, and subpages, and an immediate apology. {{unsigned|A11an0n}}
:Do you specify anyone in particular you would like to arbitrate? --{{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sigcode|red|black}}-- 14:52, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
::Someone who has had as little interaction with myself and TZH as possible, preferably. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]] 15:01, 18 November 2009 (GMT)
:::This is a completely open and shut case, accordingly I'll volunteer to arbitrate. -- {{User:Iscariot/Signature}} 15:23, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
::::I have no problems with Iscariot arbitrating. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]] 15:25, 18 November 2009 (GMT)
:::::Other users should continue to volunteer to arbitrate in case the TZH representatives do not agree to me. Has anyone informed the named members of TZH of the existence of this case? -- {{User:Iscariot/Signature}} 15:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::I am willing to arbitrate as well, for as long as I still have the chance, before his great magnificence takes my right to arby away.--[[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]][[User:MisterGame|<span style= "color: maroon; background-color: white">'''''Thadeous Oakley''''']][[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]]</span> 15:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Kidding of course. --[[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]][[User:MisterGame|<span style= "color: maroon; background-color: white">'''''Thadeous Oakley''''']][[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]]</span> 15:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Duke Cage and Dhavid Grohl have been informed. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]] 15:43, 18 November 2009 (GMT)
:[http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Dead_Bunnies#UBCS.2C_We_Hardley_Knew_Ye.21 Suck it up.] --{{User:Haliman111/sig}} 03:26, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
As a user who Thad suggests should be less sheep like, I'm willing to arbie. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 19:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
:Lawl.--[[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]][[User:MisterGame|<span style= "color: maroon; background-color: white">'''''Thadeous Oakley''''']][[Image:Umbrella-White.png|14px]]</span> 19:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't care who does it as long as its not the first person that Aegis jumped all over (Iscariot).  That just reeks of a set up.  You could have at least waited more than 2 minutes to respond to him AT, you dope.  This whole thing is complete bullshit.  We have the right to put whatever we want on our own wiki pages.  The page is about our enemies.  Aegis Tyra is an enemy, mainly because he's an impotent fool who whines constantly about everything, especially us and his tiny little... well you get the idea.  That Aegis has even done this is hilarious.  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 19:44, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
:(This is what arbies are for: Working out issues between users that are not handled by explicit rules.) --'''[[User:BobBoberton|<span style="color: #FF4500">Bob Boberton</span>]] <sup>[[The_Fortress|<span style="color: #6B8E23">TF</span>]] / [[The_Fortress/Dark_Watch|<span style="color: #778899 ">DW</span>]]</sup>''' [[Image:Littlemudkipsig.gif]] 19:50, 18 November 2009 (BST)
::This is covered by explicit rules, the Specific Page Editing Guidelines. Fair enough, never expected to be accused of a conspiracy. I'd recommend you select Rosslessness then TZH. -- {{User:Iscariot/Signature}} 19:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

::This ain't my first rodeo Bob.  We have won arbitration before.  About this issue in fact.  The TZH page is a group page, and doesn't have to be NPOV.  It is subjective, clearly.  We claim that our members can fly, and make it rain BBQ ribs.  We are allowed to make enemy pages, and on those pages we can make whatever accusations we want, we can describe our enemies in any way we please.  Worse treatment has been given to TZH for over 4 years now by every group who has decided to jump on the hate bandwagon.  AT isn't the first, and he dang well won't be the last.  All that said, I have changed my mind.  I will not accept any member of a PKer group to arbitrate this case, if they have a member in the Philosophe Knights, the Spartans, the CGR, the RRF, or any random PKer group like those bullshit zerg gentlmen's club and beaver hunt they don't get to arbitrate for us.  I would also like to point out that Aegis has demanded that we apologize, which we won't regardless of what happens here because we have done nothing wrong.  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 19:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Well lets see if anyone else volunteers. Which arbies case are you talking about?, because I can only find the one where the ruling was overturned due to (Um) Nalikill overstepping the boundaries of arbitration. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 20:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
::::I'll volunteer and I promise to rule impartially.  However I'll require that both sides make their case to me as though I'm totally clueless about the specifics of their conflict, as in fact I'm totally clueless about the specifics.--{{User:Giles Sednik/sig}} 21:21, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
::::I will also volunteer to arbie. If it pleases TZH, I don't have any PKer alts; if it pleases AT, I have had no contact with TZH in-game or out of game. --{{User:Maverick Farrant/sig}} 22:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I volunteer! I don't even play anymore so I don't care about in-game or meta-game hatred stuff.--[[User_talk:Suicidalangel|<span style="color: DarkMagenta"> SA</span>]] 22:24, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no issues with any arbitrators who have come forward. I leave the decision to you, TZH. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]]

I have some confusion, since it has been years since I was in arbitration for anything, do we even have to accept?  I would rather not give this tool anymore legitimacy than I have to.  AT is a bottom feeder, someone who has become increasingly beneath my notice.  If we don't have to accept, then I don't accept.  If we have to, I would like to see Giles and Maverick to the arbitration.  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 15:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
:You don't have to accept. But they can keep the case going until you accept it.--{{User:Yonnua Koponen/signature‎}} 15:57, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
::Minor (and possibly purely semantic) correction: they can start the case ''in spite'' of him not accepting it. {{User:Cyberbob240/Sig}} 17:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

:I want a link to the "clear cut rules" someone mentioned earlier before I accept.  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 17:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
::There aren't really any rules for the arbitrated, but [[UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration_Guidelines|this]] page has the rest of the arbies guidelines. Reminding you of my offer to arbitrate.--[[User_talk:Suicidalangel|<span style="color: DarkMagenta"> SA</span>]] 18:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Jesus H. Christ. I will offer to represent TZH. I have a Philosophe Knight and a death cultist and could win this case entirely in TZH's favour in five minutes. -- {{User:Iscariot/Signature}} 17:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Well I like the sound of that.  Maybe this PK ain't so bad after all.  I'll take Iscariot, or Rosslessness at his recommendation.  Or any one of the other guys that mentioned it earlier.  Can I file a counter suit that says AT has to suck my balls, you know, ala South Park with Cartman and Kyle?  I feel that his butthurt rant here, and everywhere else, and his attempt to get all legal on my ass and then trying to make me apologize fits that kind of punishment.  AND, that episode of South Park was hilarious, this from a guy who doesn't even really like that show.  Oh, and BALLS TO THE WHALLS!  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 20:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
:Dhavid, you have to make what you say completely stupid-proof on this page so there can be no doubt as to what you mean. I can't really arbitrate any more given I've made a statement showing a leaning towards one side in this. I would recommend you take Rosslessness as arbitrator, if you want me to represent you you'll have to state that and get Duke Cage to agree. As far as counter cases go, you can create one just like AT did, but you're on your own with that. -- {{User:Iscariot/Signature}} 20:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

:I will give Duke a text message and see if he can get on.  In the meantime, I officially accept Rosslessness, but again, of anyone else I have mentioned would be fine as well.  You people need to learn to have some freakin' fun.  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 20:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
::I accept Rosslessness as an arbitrator also. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]] 23:01, 19 November 2009 (GMT)

Right. if you both accept me, please confirm below, and Ill get this case started on Monday. Please take the weekend to look at previous arbitration cases, to see how we normally set things out, and the information I'm likely to request. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 08:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
:I hereby confirm that I accept Rosslessness as arbitrator of this case. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]] 01:07, 21 November 2009 (GMT)

Rosslessness is acceptable.  So I accept.  But, of course, with the note that this whole thing is under protest, since AT started it. --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 16:32, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

: I have not bothered to read the epic wall of text above. I was just asked to post a clarification: Aegis was no way forced or asked to leave the Spartans. He had a hard time getting a revived, and got to like the zombie side of the game sieging Ackland Mall.  He is still rostered, and soon as he grows tired of barhah we will welcome him back to the Spartan ranks in a heart beat. I hope this helps with the arbitration. --{{User:Gus_Thomas/Sig|Magnar, King of Spartans}} 02:40, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

==Arbitration Introduction==

Right, just to say, that I'm almost ready and will be asking for your opening statements in a few hours. Your opening statements are there to put your argument across, not argue with the other parties, you'll have an opportunity to discuss their comments later.  Bear in mind that if you make a claim, or want to refer to anything please provide some sort of evidence to back it up. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 12:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

==AegisTyra Opening Statement==

My reason for arbitration is simple - TZH and my old group (I am now a Gore Corps member, just haven't gotten around to editing my userpage to reflect this), Spartans, have a long history of warfare - founded on the Spartan's hatred of their text-abusing, zerging ways that bring shame to PKers everywhere, and has resulted in many of their characters being ignore-listed or zerg-listed. When TZH returned to Brainstock, and announced it in [http://s1.zetaboards.com/brainstock/topic/2162773/1/], I publicly took issue with their claims to be pro-survivor, and innocent of their crimes, and made my views clear in the linked thread. I also have a personal grievance with TZH, as when I first joined UrbanDead (under the name A11an0n), I did so in North Blythville. This was before I was aware of the metagaming community, so understandably, I was more than a little surprised to be repeatedly killed by TZH characters and text-abused. TZH claim that the characters involved (Horny Horny Hippo - currently tagged as a member of the "Whalberg River Patrol" and Horny Polar Bear) are not affiliated with TZH, but this [http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=Team_Zombie_Hardcore/The_Dhestroyers&oldid=1236714] would appear to show otherwise. Note, if you will, the date of TZH's return to Brainstock, and the date of the edit to remove Polar Bear from the Dhestroyer's wiki page.
TZH have made several claims on [[Team_Zombie_Hardcore/MOST_SUCK_Page]] that I am: A zerger (untrue, no proof whatsoever provided); A text raper (untrue, no proof whatsoever AGAIN); A new character belonging to "Steeeeeve" (Untrue, no proof provided); AND a new character belonging to "April Ivy" who apparently wore fake TZH tags (untrue, no proof provided)

They have also made personal insults against myself, the Philosophe Knights, Violet Begonia, and Amber Waves of Pain.

I would like TZH to remove the MOST SUCK PAGE, publicly apologize for the gross misconduct it represents towards myself, the Philosophe Knights, Violet, and Amber Waves. While I am all for the idea of Group pages being exempt from *most* content restrictions, this kind of graphical abuse and utterly untrue claims of zerging should NOT be allowed.

==Dhavid Grohl Opening Statement==
''Likewise a place for Dhavid Grohl to explain why he has come to arbitration and what he wants from the process''

Ladies and Gentlemen of the court, first, let me thank you for your presence here today, and your open minds.  Is it true that TZH relentlessly assualts Aegis Tyra and his zerg armies?  Yes, it is true.  Is it true that we have written great works profiling him for the rest of Malton to see on our "Most Suck" page?  Yes, this is also true.  But let me point out some things for your consideration today.

1)  This is a wiki issue, hence the wiki arbitration.  So, Aegis Tyra's many useless and impotent referrals to other sites, lists, and whatever is pointless and inconsequential to this argument.  It is at best an ad-hominem attack against myself and TZH to impune our character, in an effort to get you fine folks to side with him.

2)  We have done nothing to break wiki rules.  Our pages, subreferenced under our own master group page is for TZH use to design and maintain as we see fit.  Nothing there violates the user policies of the wiki.  No rules have been broken.  Group pages, as well as sub-pages are POV, and what you will find on the "Most Suck" page is indeed, our point of view.

3)  The great hypocrisy of what Aegis Tyra has done here.  On the one hand he maligns us for posting things about him that he considers fiction.  And then, in the next breath he maligns TZH, here, in arbitration no less, for things that we consider fiction.  He claims that TZH'ers text rape.  This is false.  No member of TZH has ever text raped, there have been dirty, mocking text attacks, but none of them were either explicit, or maliciously sexual in nature.  As well, he has accused TZH members of zerging.  And yet none of us have zerged.  He has no proof of this, only consequential evidence that wouldn't hold up in any court.  Just because TZH has been added to "lists" on other sites is meaningless, these sights do not represent the majority opinion here or in Malton.  In fact, they represent nothing but the biased judgements of the groups which run these boards and make up the moderator elite.  These "lists" are a tool by those who would seek to destroy the second oldest group in Malton (TZH), perhaps because of jealousy, or because they suck.

4)  I would also like to point out Aegis Tyra's track record here on the wiki.  He has A)  Failed to have this page speedy deleted, something he tried before,  B)  Impersonated me here on the wiki, multiple times (for which he was warned) and  C)  Has never once attempted to contact TZH for any sort of diplomacy.  As well, he lies to you about his character A11an0n.  No one in TZH has ever heard of this character.  I have inquried to all active members of TZH, and some inactive members I keep in touch with and not only has no one heard of him, but he was not found on a single contacts list.  

5)  Aegis Tyra is a liar, and a whiney fool.  He would seek to use the wiki to his ends of destroying our group, something he has been openly attempting to do for almost a year now.  How sad.  His mad quest cost him his relationship with the Spartans, a group that we have little issue with now that they have gotten rid of the chaff.

6)  Consider the implications of what he has said.  He admits that he endorses freedom for "most" content under user pages.  Which seems reasonable, afterall, somethings have to be restricted (sexually explicit content for example).  But what Aegis is proposing is censorship!  Thats right, he would have you censor me, beyond the bounds of the already well established wiki law.  Would you have this great place be degraded into the likes of one of the sad and pathetic forums where people are "blacklisted" and censored constantly?  What comes next then?  Would he have us burn books?  Or perhaps he would see people banned simply for taking issue against him!  What AT proposes is tyranny, and I say that we maximize freedom, not stifle it as he admits to desiring here.  

7)  Also, I challenge you to visit the [http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Team_Zombie_Hardcore/MOST_SUCK_Page MOST SUCK] page and to not have a pretty fun time.  Its totally awesome, in every way.  And hilarious.  And in a universe where beauty is truth, and humor is beautiful, isn't what you read there really the truth?  Think about it.  Mmm?

In conclusion ladies and gentlemen, do what is obviously right.  Find Aegis Tyra's request to be exactly what it is, stupid and pointless.  Heck, find him in contempt or something else.  To my accuser I have one message:  Get Bent.  To the rest of you, good day.  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 18:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

==Pointless Middle header==
''Middle header, I'll ask you each to offer a rebuttle to the others opening statement and ask a few of my own questions below.''

==AegisTyra's Rebuttal==

 "Is it true that TZH relentlessly assualts Aegis Tyra and his zerg armies? Yes, it is true. 
 Is it true that we have written great works profiling him for the rest of Malton to see on our "Most Suck" page?
 Yes, this is also true."

You have NO proof of this blatant falsehood whatsoever. I maintain ONE character, AegisTyra. If I wish to play a different style, then I move that character to a different group - hence my joining the Gore Corps recently. I have NO alts. I have never zerged.

 "Aegis Tyra's many useless and impotent referrals to other sites, lists, and whatever is pointless and inconsequential to this argument. 
 It is at best an ad-hominem attack against myself and TZH to impune our character, 
 in an effort to get you fine folks to side with him."

It is not an "ad-hominem" attack. It is an illustration of the character of TZH.

 " We have done nothing to break wiki rules. Our pages, subreferenced under our own master group page is for TZH use
 to design and maintain as we see fit. Nothing there violates the user policies of the wiki.
 No rules have been broken.  Group pages, as well as sub-pages are POV, and what you will find on the "Most Suck" page
 is indeed, our point of view." 

It may be from your point of view. But there has come a point on that page where "POV" crosses into "blatant lies and insults".

 " On the one hand he maligns us for posting things about him that he considers fiction.
 And then, in the next breath he maligns TZH, here, in arbitration no less, for things that we consider fiction.
 He claims that TZH'ers text rape. This is false. No member of TZH has ever text raped, there have been dirty, mocking text attacks, 
 but none of them were either explicit, or maliciously sexual in nature. 
 As well, he has accused TZH members of zerging. And yet none of us have zerged. He has no proof of this, 
 only consequential evidence that wouldn't hold up in any court. 
 Just because TZH has been added to "lists" on other sites is meaningless, 
 these sights do not represent the majority opinion here or in Malton."

I did not claim you text raped. I claimed, and the Ignore List backs me up, that you text abuse. And yes, I claim you zerg. The Zerg List will back me up here. And amongst the metagaming community, the community that this wiki supports, the majority of people DO know of the Zerg List and Rogue's Gallery. This isn't a court. This is a game.

 " I would also like to point out Aegis Tyra's track record here on the wiki.
 He has A) Failed to have this page speedy deleted, something he tried before,
 B) Impersonated me here on the wiki, multiple times (for which he was warned) 
 and C) Has never once attempted to contact TZH for any sort of diplomacy." 

Yes, I did indeed try to have the page deleted. I was told to bring it to Arbitration. And here I am. Is not being fully aware of proper wiki process a reason to reject my case? No. I changed ONE post of yours, on my talk page, and then after the warn, proceeded to delete all TZH posts to that date on my talk page, as they were nothing but vile insults and accusations. I freely admit to editing the MOST SUCK PAGE once, to remove certain insults on it. The only other warn on my talk page is from nearly 2 years ago, and has nothing to do with TZH, and everything to do with the fact that it was on my birthday, while drunk, and I apologised to the Philosophe Knights, which they accepted. And no, I didn't try and contact you for diplomacy. I have no wish to do so.
 
 " Aegis Tyra is a liar, and a whiney fool. He would seek to use the wiki to his ends of destroying our group,
 something he has been openly attempting to do for almost a year now. How sad.
 His mad quest cost him his relationship with the Spartans, a group that we have little issue with now that they have gotten rid of the chaff."  

Ad-hom, ad-hom, ad-hom. And, although I cannot link you directly to the page, as it is password-protected: an excerpt from the Spartan Kill List on their forum:
# Declared War:
## Persians - Persian slaves in their many forms
## Team Zombie Hardcore - although a bit slow at the moment, anyone that insults a Spartan insults us all. TZH has ran a aggressive campaign against Brother AegisTyra and have thus declared war on us.

 " Consider the implications of what he has said. He admits that he endorses freedom for "most" content under user pages.
  Which seems reasonable, afterall, somethings have to be restricted (sexually explicit content for example).
 But what Aegis is proposing is censorship! Thats right, he would have you censor me,
 beyond the bounds of the already well established wiki law. Would you have this great place
 be degraded into the likes of one of the sad and pathetic forums where people are "blacklisted" and censored constantly?
 What comes next then? Would he have us burn books? Or perhaps he would see people banned simply for taking issue against him!
 What AT proposes is tyranny, and I say that we maximize freedom, not stifle it as he admits to desiring here.

I do not wish to "limit freedom" or censor you. And wiki law, as the changes that have been made to it over the years show, is by no means perfect.
I simply believe that, while POV on user pages is all well and good, there is posting a page in POV, and then there is outright lies, unfounded accusations (which your own page contradicts itself on) and petty insults.

 " Also, I challenge you to visit the MOST SUCK page and to not have a pretty fun time.
 Its totally awesome, in every way. And hilarious. And in a universe where beauty is truth, and humor is beautiful,
 isn't what you read there really the truth? Think about it. Mmm?"

John Keats would roll in his grave. Some humour may well be beautiful, but the kind espoused by your ilk wouldn't be considered beautiful even by fans of *spits* Date Movie.

His concluding statement says it all. He speaks to you with a honeyed tongue, then throws insults at me. Sophistry, even now. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]]

== Dhavid Grohl's Re"butt"al (haha, I said butt) ==

Well, I don't know how to quote on the wiki, like Aegis does.  But his quotes made the writing too small anyway, so who cares?  Not me.

You say I have no proof of your zerging... well do you have any proof of mine?  You have a liste, from a 3rd party site, run by people who openly attack and hate our group, and have done so long before they invented the "proof" of our zerging.  They decided they were going to place us on the list, so they did.  And, even if we do zerg, it doesn't matter because that has nothing to do with this argument.  That you would even make that accusation is stupid.  You are attempting to attack our character, because our position is unassailable.  We have broken no rules, violated no policies, and are well within our rights.

You say that you are not using ad-hominem attacks.  Yet that is exactly what you have done.  You have attacked our character despite that our character has no place in this argument to attempt to bias the judge(s) against us in their ruling.  You do this because there is no reasonable way we could be found guilty of violating any policy, because there are no written policies that we have violated.  You don't even have examples of when we have broken wiki law, unlike the examples we gave of your violations (editing another groups page and impersonation).  Heck, I'll even give you the impersonation, because I did it after you did, mainly because once you got away with it I figured it was cool.  But you knew it was illegal to edit our wiki page.  You were told multiple times that was the case.  And unlike your ad-hominem attacks this IS pertinent, because it represents a pattern of behavior of attempting to USE the wiki in malicious ways against our group because of an in-game grudge.  Not only use (attempting speedy deletion and arbitration) but MISUSE (vandalizing pages).  What is happening here is consistent with your behavior in the past.

You claim that our POV is in violation of some unwritten standard, yet you posit that your POV is beyond reproach?  So what now AT, only your POV should be legal?  Only what you decide is decent should be allowed?  That sir, is censorship.  You know who else was big on censorship?  Hitler.  Thats right, I said it :)

You claim that the majority of people here know the Zerg Liste and RG.  Yet you have no proof.  And more importantly it doesn't matter.  This isn't the ZL or the RG.  Those lists are run by other sites, private sites, sites that are run by people who have no responsibility to Kevan.  Sites that can lie, cheat, steal, victimize, and marginalize the opposition all they want.  And while I understand you are used to having your way with the TZH hate bandwagon there, this is a different place.  This is a place of reason, of logic, and of rules that are enforced without bias.  As I said before, referencing those sites has no purpose, and no merit here.  What the biased moderators there have decided consitutes proof is without value or consequence.  Not only here, but in Malton too.  Otherwise all those zerg-listed characters you claim zerged (but don't) would be erased, all the characters you claim text-assaulted (but didn't) would be silenced.  But you know what, they aren't.  You're not Kevan, get over it.

You then admitted your many violations.  You also admitted that you never attempted to contact TZH, you know, like a reasonable person would.  Why even I, the great villain Dhavid Grohl, contacted the Spartans.  TZH even warned you ourselves when you violated wiki policy and vandalized our pages to let you know you should stop before we reported you.  You know why?  Because we are reasonable people, who prefer diplomacy.  Of course, when that fails, there is always our POV to share.

You quote the Spartans, and their "defense" of you.  And yet, was this not the chain of events?  You attack TZH.  We attack you.  Spartans attack TZH.  We offer Spartans peace if they ditch you.  You leave the Spartans.  Now, considering we were wholesale slaughtering you, your alts, and the Spartans thats a pretty coincidental chain of events not to be causal.  Now sure, maybe you're trying to save yourself face, maybe they are trying to save face.  No one wants to cave to the pressure of another group.  So sure, you go ahead and keep telling everyone what "really" happened.

You then say that you don't want to limit our freedoms.  Well then go away forever.  You have griefed our group in game with zergs (you admit to at least two alts, a11an0n and AT, and we believe others).  You have vandalized our wiki page, and you have taken it upon yourself to do everything in your power to see us wiped off the map.  We have defended ourselves, and rested safe in the knowledge that just like every other douche who has tried just what you are trying now, you will eventually fail and go away.  If you valued freedom, you wouldn't be trying to censor us, as you are clearly doing.

I will say this though.  You have flattered me a bit.  Well, you've always been flattering what with your fanatic devotion to our group.  The publicity you have brought us has been awesome.  Keep it up!  But more recently with saying I have a honeyed tongue.  Thanks man, I appreciate the compliment.  Oh, and in summary, get bent.  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 00:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

==A further rebuttal by AegisTyra==
The characters A11an0n and AegisTyra were run entirely separately in time - A11an0n was run from early 2006-early 2007, AegisTyra from late 2007-current day. A11an0n is currently idled out, and as good as dead, as I have no idea what the password on that account was. I have had a sum total of ZERO other accounts. AegisTyra is the only account I still run AP on. I have never griefed you with zergs, and I challenge you to prove that accusation, or recant it - not that it has any bearing on this case, but you DO seem to like arguing semantics. I repeat - I left the Spartans BY CHOICE, for no reason other than that I helped take Ackland down as a Death Cultist, independent of current Spartan action, and decided to take a sojourn to further pursue trans-mortal antics. I am, as far as I am aware, welcome back in the Spartan ranks, if I should so choose, and I have asked Jack Byrnes to confirm this here at his earlier convenience, if that is acceptable with Rosslessness. Until then, I would like to point out that he contact Dhavid Grohl made did indeed happen, and can be seen on the Spartan group talk page - where it was refused by myself, and then Toothdecay, a Spartan King, no less. And this is by no means an ad-hominem line of argument - it is meant to both illustrate the character of TZH, in that they are recognised by a majority of the metagame community as text-abusers and zergers, and to illustrate that the claims that are so utterly un-supported on their MOST SUCK PAGE are base hypocrisy, and make their coarse insults a thousand times less bearable.

I do not at all argue that my POV is the only acceptable one - I would hope that a favourable verdict from Rosslessness here would, and should, set a precedent, that NO group, whatever side of whatever conflict they choose, should resort to such base lies and ignominous insults as TZH have done. Also - invoking Godwin's Law on Dhavid here. That was FAST. And when I say you have a honeyed tongue, it is by no means a compliment. You speak well enough to those who you want on your side, but those who oppose suffer such abuse as I thought I would never see outside of /b/. A honeyed tongue, yes, but a forked tongue also.

Oh, and for future reference, Dhavid, to quote on the wiki, indent the text one space on each line. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]]

== Closing Statement by Grohl, maybe ==

Do I get a closing statement?  I don't know.  Anyway, I motion for this fools crusade to be brought to a close.

 "it is meant to both illustrate the character of TZH,"

THAT IS AD HOMINEM!  Are you daft man?  Do you even know what Ad Hominem is?!  You attack our character because you cannot attack our actual actions or stance, and even your ad hominem is weak.  See below:

 " in that they are recognised by a majority of the metagame community as text-abusers and zergers,"

The majority?  What majority?  We are allies with easily 9/10 of the groups that surround us in the suburbs.  We are respected and well liked by all of our allies, and most of our enemies.  Brainstock and Resensitized are PKer dens, and frequented by the SAME people.  They spout the same crap, just at two different sites.  That you would quote them as a majority shows how ignorant you are.  Hilarious.  

And of course, my required insulting response:

 "A honeyed tongue, yes, but a forked tongue also."

Did your girlfriend tell you that?  She swore she wasn't going to tell anyone about my tongue.  The operation was painful, but the ladies love it.  Just ask her, she'll tell you.  

In all seriousness, we have broken no rules.  This arbitration was unfounded at best, and dangerous at worst.  To set a precedent for censorship here would only weaken the wiki.  TZH rules, everyone else except OM, BQ, Drifters, 1111, TMS, BG, GSE, and KS can go get bent.  Long Live Whalberg!  Long Live Freedom!  BALLS TO THE WHALLS!  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 03:44, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

==Closing Statement (probably) by AegisTyra==

"illustrating the character" of your group is NOT ad hominem. Ad hominem is entirely unrelated insults. Illustrating the character of the accused happens frequently in courts of law - character witnesses are often called on both sides.

For instance, calling me ignorant? Ad hominem.

THe whole girlfriend thing? Irrelevant.

Arbitrator, if you sanction this kind of behaviour by TZH on their wiki pages, you sanction TZH as a whole - and open the door for further attacks of this kind, not just from them, but from any wannabe internet tough-guys, on any group or user. Every other group has POV pages that don't descend into vulgarities such as the MOST SUCK PAGE, and allowing such content on the wiki will only serve to further confuse newcomers to the wiki, whilst incorrectly portraying players such as myself in a poor light. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]]

==[[User:Duke cage|Duke Cage]] Does Not Know Where to Post This==
Being the author of the disputed page of awesome, is my participation needed? I really do not see anything that is needed from me. Grohl said it quite well, and Aegis just reinforced the reason why he got added to the list twice by posting on here. I honestly would use this chance to speak to just get
more of a rise out of the little guy. The fact that we are even here is hilarious. I apologize to the wiki arbitrator if this is not the correct place to post this comment. --[[User:Duke cage|Duke cage]] 03:41, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
:Also, I believe I originally added a disclaimer to THE MOST SUCK page. I think Aegis should be going to Stossel about this... --[[User:Duke cage|Duke cage]] 04:33, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

==Woh==
Step away from the computers, guys. Wait for Ross to direct this arbitration, please. Don't be in such a rush to type walls'o'text <small>-- [[User:Boxy|<span style="color: Red">boxy</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Boxy|<span style="color: Red">talk</span>]] • [[The Rules|teh rulz]]</sup> 03:56 25 November 2009 (BST)</small>
:Apologies. I saw Dhavid's post, and wished to respond. --[[User:A11an0n|AegisTyra]] 04:01, 25 November 2009 (GMT)

=="I'll ask you each to offer a rebuttle to the others opening statement and ask a few of my own questions below."==

Did I ask you to post? No. So stop for a minute. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 08:35, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

==Question for Dhavid Grohl==

''Grohl Please Respond below''

Is it fair to say that as a POV group page, MOSTSUCK contains a huge list of whatever you want to say about your enemies, regardless of proof, truthfulness and others opinion? --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 08:45, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

:No.  While it is IS a POV page, we don't just say "whatever we want".  Some of what we say is our opinion, other stuff contains objective fact.  It is meant to be informative.  While some claim to know the true nature of TZH, we in TZH have the right to claim to know the true nature of some of them as well.  The page is meant to be informative to our allies so that they are aware of who we consider an enemy, and why our opinions are as such.

:Proof is a tricky thing.  Truthfullness is a tricky thing.  Do we provide screenshots?  No.  But thats because screenshots can be faked, so there is no point.  Same thing for an iWitness pic.  We tried that long ago, and we were spammed with accusations of faking the pages. 

:You are certainly right that we post regardless of other's opinions.  If they have opinions, they are free to make their own pages to post them.  Every group who maintains a wiki page is entitled to their opinion, to be posted freely on their own page, without censorship (within the bounds of policy as currently written).  That, and TZH has never cared what anyone else thought.  They can get bent!  BALLS TO THE WHALLS!  --[[User:Dhavid Grohl|Dhavid Grohl]] 12:53, 25 November 2009 (UTC)