View source for MediaWiki talk:Sidebar

so, because there is little thing happening ingame a page dedicated to it should be removed ? bullshit!! game events should remain in the page even if it is kept two years without an update! People should be encoraged to use it, rather than making it harder for them to edit it --[[User:Hagnat|People's Commissar Hagnat]] <sup>[[User_talk:Hagnat|[talk]]] [[wcdz|[wcdz]]]</sup> 19:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
:I think I might be a little lost. {{User:Misanthropy/Sig}} 19:48, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

:Oh, my(!) Should we cycle old things that have no use in order to keep the wiki current? It's not like we do it for suggestions, groups, admin cases, suburb news and er... everything else on this fucking wiki.

:Stop being butthurt and go cry to some people that give a shit. If anything, the user hub and the community portal should both come off it as well because they're both pointless now and the news section should be changed to the game's news url given it's in the game section (the map is an obvious exception as the game doesn't have a full one). -- {{User:Iscariot/Signature}} 20:01, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
::I was thinking of removing CP too, but with UHub I like to think that it may still be of ''some'' use even though I don't personally use it. I like the idea of changing news tbh. --{{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig3}} 22:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
:Hagnat, call me naive and reactionary, but seriously, weren't you the guy who pushed most of current events when it was in its prime? I'm hoping I'm wrong, because that would mean that once again you're only trying to save something I am purging simply because you made it, regardless of the merits of its removal. --{{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig3}} 22:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
::I only used to update it during mall tours (the first two), and did a really poor job there. And looking at the page you'll notice that they look like only a footnote there. I did asked goebi to make a nice layout for it when he was creating all those fancy pages in his [[:Category:Style Up!|Style Up! Project]], but other than that i had little involvment in that page. So, yeah, you are wrong about it. And you not only removed it from the sidebar, but you forgot to add it somewhere on the main page where people could access it. I had a hard time finding somewhere that had a link to it. Like i said, you are making it harder for people to use a page that should be used more. --[[User:Hagnat|People's Commissar Hagnat]] <sup>[[User_talk:Hagnat|[talk]]] [[wcdz|[wcdz]]]</sup> 23:45, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
:::''Should'' be used more, but ''isn't''. Notice A/A. Nice little battle just occurred with plenty of work in the wiki page, yet nothing added onto the Current Events page. Same goes for several events and users chose to overlook Current Events in the last few years. Pretty sure its usefulness is long dead. --{{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig3}} 02:20, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
::::So, because a wiki centric page is edited far more often than a game centric page, the second should be removed ? Shees. Last time i checked, this was supposed to be a game's tool of information... and i fully expect the horde of trolls yelling that the game is dead --[[User:Hagnat|People's Commissar Hagnat]] <sup>[[User_talk:Hagnat|[talk]]] [[wcdz|[wcdz]]]</sup> 03:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::Funnily enough, all of this isn't because the game is dead. It's cause that page is. Death is natural hagmeister, don't fight it... --{{User:DanceDanceRevolution/sig3}} 09:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

==reboot==
Added [[skills]], hoping no one objects to it. The idea came, ironically, from local retard [[Talk:Main_Page#Skills_link|Zombieman]]. If anyone ''does'' have a problem, I'm more than happy to discuss here (which is what I probably should have done in the first place but it isn't really hurting anyone like this). If anyone has any other ideas of important pages to add, feel free? -- {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/l}} 10:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
:I Think the order should go News, Map, Skills Personally. --{{User:Rosslessness/Sig}} 11:24, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
::Yeah. I didn't wanna move anything around, cause I figured the users would be used to them being in the specific order they've been in for the last year (especially maps, which I imagine is used more than most) but I'm up for changing them if you think there's a better order. -- {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/l}} 12:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
:::I'm fine with it. I thought the idea was good at first but after sleeping on it realized that [[Skills]] is not the most high traffic or even important pages around. Its kind of one of those things that after you see it, commit it to memory, you rarely go back to it. I did however read it A LOT when I started and do still go back to it as reference so I have no problem with it being on the sidebar. {{User:Vapor/sig}} 15:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

== Clean and Sexy ==

Ignoring the ridiculous header, Are there any objections to [http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php?title=MediaWiki%3ASidebar&action=historysubmit&diff=2032188&oldid=2007854 this]. At current almost all of that content is duplicated on the main page which is the page the game itself links anyway. The whole The Game section basically is preventing the sidebar from seeing more reasonable navigational use for things not already, or that shouldn't be, on the main page. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 03:26, 9 October 2012 (BST)
:Also as a note, before we added Map, Skills, and News those were the most accessed pages anyway so there wasn't a particular navigational need for making them more prominent. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 03:28, 9 October 2012 (BST)
===Maps and Random ===
::Map should stay at least because it's something frequently updated, which means there's a reason to come back to it frequently (so make it more accessible). --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 03:52, 9 October 2012 (BST)
:::I also like having the map linked in nav as well as stats. I use those links all the time. Personally I could care less about recruitment but that's probably just me. I am in full support of removing random page (pain in my ass when using touch screen and trying to click recent changes) but am against putting the link to the game right next to RC (for the same reason). Administration services is a nice addition. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>04:32, 9 October 2012 (UTC)</sub>
::::I like the link to administration services, but I'm going to counter that having a "random page" in the sidebar is a part of almost every wiki I've ever seen, and is a fun way that new users often get a "feel" for what a wiki's content is. If I were new to this wiki, having used several others, a lack of "Random Page" would be a flag to me that the people running the wiki have something to hide. That said, I'm all for moving it somewhere less obtrusive (like below "Help"). {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 04:37, 9 October 2012 (BST)


::I can agree with Map, I removed it because it's always been through the Main page but I can agree with the justification of it wasting time. Stats not so much, stats are only useful in a few situations, like Random Page, it's a niche user thing. I like Random Page, I like Stats, I used them frequently in suggestions and Search Odds but they don't have much relevance as a top level resource for most people. Random page is still in the Special pages area, Stats should probably be linked prominently on the pages it can be useful for. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 05:30, 9 October 2012 (BST)
:::Random page has actually been used to vandalize easier, when they go on sprees, if anyone can remember. So, that one should probably go. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 15:04, 9 October 2012 (BST)

===Play Urbandead===
::::Play Urbandead is where it is because it's a primary resource, like Main Page and Recent Changes. It's theoretically the most important link on the wiki as it's urbandead.com core navigation, it's our Leave The Wiki resource. Is the objection because of a penchant to use Recent Changes(and accidentally hit other links) or because of more appropriate placement? --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 05:30, 9 October 2012 (BST)
:::::iirc using the link to the game from wiki is problematic. Something about contacts added to incorrect character profiles I think. I stopped using that link after problems long ago so I don't remeber the exact problem. Honestly it doesn't matter what link goes beneath RC, my fat finger is gonna mash it. I'd prefer an inner-wiki link than a link to somewhere offsite. I guess even Random Page has its merits. Just the other day I found a C1 by accidentally clicking Random Page. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>00:01, 10 October 2012 (UTC)</sub>
::::::The game doesn't redirect to a single subdomain or have universal cookies which is the issue with the www or no www. We can always make it just use the server magic words. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 03:53, 10 October 2012 (BST)
===Stats===
Map and stats are the only ones I'd fight for. --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  22:50, 9 October 2012 (BST)
:don't get rid of maps. No discussion. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 00:03, 10 October 2012 (BST)
::Maps is already back in. Stats I'm personally against. 90% of no one needs stats and I've yet to see an actual argument for why it should be kept when it's such a niche link. The way I currently see it it's like having PKer Groups on the list. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 03:53, 10 October 2012 (BST)
::::Okay sorry I was quick on time and on mobile. Yeah I wouldn't miss stats all too much myself. It's a nice handy little thing to have but the least missed out of all of them {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 07:30, 10 October 2012 (BST)

Right. You want a justification? Here we go. Stats is the best thing in the world. I click the link at least once a day. Why? Because it's the closest thing we have to fact on this pony express. In a single page it gives indicators of the city itself, (ratio, mobile coverage etc), lists all active large groups, (and links them back to the wiki), allowing for new players to find the existing meta and importantly flags up suspicious new groups. You know the ones, 70 members, spring up overnight, generally having something to do with the Reich. It's never more than 59 minutes out of date, and it also information not available on the wiki at all. You could argue groups can be found here, but not with the ease of this one simple external page. 

To paraphrase, it's current, accurate, not available anywhere else, and a useful tool for both experienced and new users. Of course we should keep it. --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  12:53, 10 October 2012 (BST)

Yeah relating to my posts above, I was medicated and half asleep, thought it was the Wiki [[Statistics]] page. Now I realise that it's the UD stats page, I'd say definitely keep it. Like you said elsewhere karek, "Play Urban Dead" is the quick way out of this wiki eo the game etc etc. I think that sort of applies to the stats page. I'd be for keeping it for sure. Again as I said above (or below, cant remember) I don't really see the issue with the current layout and selection of links on the sidebar, particularly in culling map and stats. Random article? ''maybe'', I wouldn't miss it. But the others are ways to information that would make things very easy for those who use them {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 14:18, 10 October 2012 (BST)

===misc===
I've been awol and only saw this today, I'll put my opinion down on the table and say I don't ''really'' mind how it's done now, though I do think 'recruitment' could do with being changed to 'groups'. Obviously I'm a bit biased because I played a bit part in how it currently looks. I'm not against changes in any way but I think it's simple enough now and I just don't see adding links to admin protections, vandalism etc. as an important essence in improving the user experience. my two cents for the record. {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 07:38, 10 October 2012 (BST)

== Ugh... ==

Common needs of users... maps, recruitment, page protection... the hell. --[[Image:Kirsty_Cotton_Header.png|60px|Open the Box|link=User:Kirsty_cotton]] <sub>[[Organization_XIII|<span style="color: grey">Org XIII</span>]]</sub> <sup>[[User:Kirsty_cotton/alts|<span style="color: blue">Alts</span>]]</sup> 22:50, 19 October 2012 (BST)
:What pages would you suggest instead? For regular wiki users, the only pages that most of them visit often are admin ones, so for regular wiki users, there's not much we can reasonably link up there. For newbie users, they need maps, recruitment, etc., and we can link those since there aren't many of those pages. Hence how things ended up. If you have a good suggestion though... ;) {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 23:22, 19 October 2012 (BST)
::It's obviously far easier to complain about the work of others than do it yourself.  As for specific pages, I'm not sure.  I don't really need that many.  I'd like to see something like: naviagation, game resources and wiki resources; for the major categories.  In navigation: main page, play UD, recent changes, ??? (basic pages that just about anyone might want).  Game resources: the new map link, the old map link, recruitment, guides, possibly tactics if there is main page for those other than just linking the category, ???.  Wiki resources: help, editting information, a welcome page (that might have to be made, think welcomenewbie but self-service and maybe a list of users willing to help newbies with wiki matters), direct link to bot reporting, admin link, templates link (seriously I still can't find templates for shit), ???.  But, that said, I don't really know.  Keep trying and I'll complain until someone just reads my mind. :P --[[Image:Kirsty_Cotton_Header.png|60px|Open the Box|link=User:Kirsty_cotton]] <sub>[[Organization_XIII|<span style="color: grey">Org XIII</span>]]</sub> <sup>[[User:Kirsty_cotton/alts|<span style="color: blue">Alts</span>]]</sup> 05:30, 20 October 2012 (BST)
:::So...your complaint is not that this version in particular sucks, but that it has ''always'' sucked because it has always lacked the links you're talking about? If so, I'm certainly open to discussing tweaks and changes as we get a feel for what's missing or going unused with this new version. That said, I'd let it settle in for a few days, that way we don't overreact simply because it's something new and different. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 06:37, 20 October 2012 (BST)

It looks a little... fat. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 00:40, 20 October 2012 (BST)
::Theoretically we could remove Main Page as that's linked from every page anyway but that may be pushing it considering most people wouldn't be expected to realize the image is a link. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 03:59, 20 October 2012 (BST)

<br>Lost two of the three links I personally used the most, Suburb and Stats. The current Maps page has way too many different maps for niche purposes, whereas the simple Suburb page has all the suburb links, the Danger Map ''and'' links to all the other maps that you may want and need at the bottom. Can we have a suburb link back in place of the Game Maps page, please? --{{User:RenegadeRomero/Sig}} 00:50, 20 October 2012 (BST)
:As Bosch. Suburb and stats back please. I think everyone agreed on maps during the discussion above, even Karek so why was it removed? ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>03:11, 20 October 2012 (UTC)</sub>
::Clearly you must be seeing things, check again. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 03:57, 20 October 2012 (BST)
:::Also Stats was agreed to be largely unnecessary. The only argument even provided for it was Ross arguing that the wiki doesn't contain factual information. Everyone else left it at yeah, I'm good without stats. So no, stats is gone you had a ridiculous amount of time to provide a reason to keep it and chose not to so I'm finding it a little hard to take this as much more than a fit for the sake of being upset. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 06:37, 20 October 2012 (BST)
::::I never agreed that stats was uneccessary. Perhaps when you broke the discussion up into different headers you missed the part where I said I use the stats link all the time and wanted it kept. Even so, by your own admission, a legitimate argument  (Ross')  for keeping stats was brought up and you chose to ignore it when you implemented. ~[[Image:Vsig.png|link=User:Vapor]] <sub>16:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)</sub>
:::::What Karek has done is assume that if no one commented, they must support him. Likewise, if I decide to add it back in, anyone who doesn't specifically protest against it must support its reinclusion. --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  18:28, 20 October 2012 (BST)

Seriously Karek this change is really bad. Surely when something has no real support you're supposed to ''not'' implement it not wait 2 weeks and do it anyway {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 04:59, 20 October 2012 (BST)

:What discussion have you been reading? Clearly it wasn't this one. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 06:23, 20 October 2012 (BST)
::Nice try 3/10 try harder next exam {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 14:58, 20 October 2012 (BST)

New lineup looks fugly. Enough said. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 06:33, 20 October 2012 (BST)

:So did the old one but this one is actually usable and readable. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 06:39, 20 October 2012 (BST)
:No, that is not enough. This is a wiki. If you're not going to voice complaints until after the change is made, at least offer something constructive. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 06:52, 20 October 2012 (BST)
::OK, well, you want my opinion? There's too many links, I think. For the Administration stuff, if we're to keep it there in the sidebar, why not just link to [[UDWiki:Administration]] instead (more specifically, the section title, "Page Maintenance Requests")? Heck, linking it to the Administration NavBar works fine too. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 06:59, 20 October 2012 (BST)
:::I second the motion to re-compress the Admin links into a single link. Probably along with splitting the "navigation" box above it into two (possibly along the lines with Kirsty's suggestion above, although I'm up for whatever). In regards to the whole "stats" discussion, I don't ever use it, but I'm tempted to throw my support behind the "add-it-back" group because I prefer happy wikizens. I also want to say, that despite the vitriol that is currently flying around this page, I do think it was a good idea to get the process moving by making changes, as long as further adjustments are made as we go. {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 16:52, 20 October 2012 (BST)

Seriously. What is this. In the specific discussion on stats alone, both me and ddr supported its inclusion, with only Karek arguing against it. Unless anyone else comes up with an actual argument I will be putting it back in. --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  12:33, 20 October 2012 (BST)
:Oh, I also note Vapor and Bosch agree with me. --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  12:33, 20 October 2012 (BST)
::Misconduct much {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 14:59, 20 October 2012 (BST)

Honestly what the FUCK? How many people need to complain before a sysop with balls reverts this and a proper system of improvement actually happens? {{User:DanceDanceRevolution/a}} 14:58, 20 October 2012 (BST)
:You have that backwards. It takes balls to ''not'' make a hasty decision when people start shouting. Reacting to pressure from the crowd is easy. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 16:44, 20 October 2012 (BST)

== Main Page ==

On an unrelated note, why do we need Main Page? There's a link to main page directly above it anyway. --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  15:56, 20 October 2012 (BST)

== Wordage ==

Another issue is this. Its wordy beyond use. The last three links in its current form should be simply Groups, Maps (Although Id prefer Suburbs) and Help. --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  16:00, 20 October 2012 (BST)
:I second this. Although I do understand that there could be a counterargument that having the lines line up looks more aesthetically pleasing. But right now, "Request Page Protection" is bumping down onto a second line, which definitely needs changed. {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 16:55, 20 October 2012 (BST)

== Consolidating complaints ==

I'm a bit disappointed that (with one or two exceptions) the specific complaints I'm hearing were not brought up prior to the change being made. Where were these complaints in the week-and-a-half that things were being discussed? That said, though the complaints are late, it's obvious that there are quite a few, and people have finally stopped shouting and starting reasoning, which means that we can work together to make some forward progress.

Towards that, here are the complaints I'm hearing:
#The individual links are too wordy.
#The links could be grouped/ordered better.
#The stats page should ''not'' have been removed.
#The main page link ''should'' have been removed.
#There are too many admin links now.
#X link from my wishlist didn't get added.
Does that about sum up what everyone is complaining about? Let's start with that, then focus on solutions. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 16:54, 20 October 2012 (BST)

:That looks right. Should we reorganize this talk page into that format? {{User:Bob Moncrief/Sig}} 16:55, 20 October 2012 (BST)

Aichon, my complaint was neither late, shouted, or without reasoning. I raised my points, I stated my actions. Karek did not discuss them, he ignored them. I can't have a discussion on my own, now can I? --[[User talk:Rosslessness|Ross Less Ness]] <sup>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERLLUoZn0mM Enter Stranger...]</sup>  18:18, 20 October 2012 (BST)