View source for Suggestion talk:20090208 Nightvision (zombie skill)

===Developing Suggestions entry===
{{suggestionNew
|suggest_time=[[User:Devon lobham|Devon lobham]] 04:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
|suggest_type=Skill
|suggest_scope=Zombies
|suggest_description=Basically it enables zombies to see in unpowered dark buildings. They can see the complete room description and their attack rates aren't halved.

Currently the dark building feature actually makes zombies <i>benefit from a generator</i> and puts them at <i>a loss in the absence of it</i>. This is a paradox since it's humans who should be needing this sophisticated item anyway, not walking corpses. Implementing this skill will once again encourage zombies (or at least the ones who's purchased this skill) to destroy generators.

Also, while survivors can immediately address a dark building problem by placing a fueled generator, zombies can't do such.

Roleplay-wise, it can be said that zombies have spent so much time out in darkened streets that their visual senses become fine-tuned to darkness.

This skill can be expanded to include other effects, but the one above is the only thing currently in my mind.

EDIT - balancing details - [[User:Devon lobham|Devon lobham]] 16:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

To balance the amount of effort a survivor needs to find a generator and its fuel then install it in a dark building, zombies with this skill don't see in darkness immediately. Instead, they have to use an action, probably called "Adapt Vision" which costs around 2-5 AP. It's implied ingame that zombies have to take time to adjust their pupils, the way <i>your</i> pupils gradually adapt to tolerable darkness.

This skill also won't provide full attack rate loss compensation. Something around 20% should be fine I guess.

|discussion=|}}
====Discussion (Nightvision)====
Firstly, thanks for taking this to Developing Suggestions first, instead of to voting.

This could be seen as a Frequently Suggested thing ([[Frequently_Suggested#Portable_Light_Sources|Portable light sources]].) It could be seen as a dupe of [[Suggestion:20081205_In_The_Dark|this]] (although it's a long shot, admittedly.) I can't find any other dupes. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 04:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 
Portable light sources affect survivors, I believe. And they can't have it because they already have the option of generators. Also, excuse me for asking here but, is there a "current situation" (as said in the suggestion article above) against this kind of suggestion?[[User:Devon lobham|Devon lobham]] 04:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:It's a bit stupid to vote against a suggestion because of the "current situation". The game moves in cycles-a few months ago [[S.O.S|there where complaints]] about the game being overly pro-zombie. [http://www.urbandead.com/stats.html Now], the stats overwhelmingly favor survivors. So, no, there is really no "current situation". Dark buildings are a zombie nerf, and I'm not against them being changed a little. However, portable generators are "expensive" (rare and valuable,) and dark buildings are often left ruined for [[:Image:LTW-Suicide_Repair(Before).PNG|months at a time]]. Giving zombies a nightvision skill is a bit unfair when survivors have to use a generator+fuel (at least 10, more likely 20 AP, only searching,) for ''each building'' they want to have good hit/search rates in, or want repaired is a tad unfair. If it gave a ''small'' boost to hit rates, then I would be fine with it. Full hit rates are unbalanced. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 04:46, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem with this suggestion is that it allows "life cultists" to gather to much info about the insides of dark buildings, and to act as a "forwards team" that kills any zombies holding it (although a survivor with a generator & fuel is still needed to dump the bodies and reclaim it).  The current situation in dark buildings is actually rather good for zombies, in terms of long-term holding power, and giving away more info would likely reduce that.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 04:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:Agreed. As I said above, in ghost towns or red suburbs, zombies can have dark buildings ruined for months. {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 04:46, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::The only real gameplay advantage zombies get is hit rate. They can't search for items so no advantage in that. Room descriptions are cosmetic as they are and don't affect the opposing side (except for numbers of corpses, though, but if this is called spying then "Scent Death" can be labeled as a spy skill too). But anyhow, I'm gonna edit the suggestion a bit.[[User:Devon lobham|Devon lobham]] 16:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Edited. Please discuss again. Thanks. [[User:Devon lobham|Devon lobham]] 16:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
----

== Non-author REs ==

'''Spam''' - Argo, this WAS on Developing Suggestions, he just didn't listen. Oh, and this isn't the solution we're looking for. --{{User:Blake Firedancer/sig}} 07:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
:I said that not only should he put it on there, but also listen to what the feedback was. As you can see, most people said that this was unbalanced and could be considered on the Do Not Suggest list.--{{User:SirArgo/Signature}} 08:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
::Flashlights, et al are already on the FS list. This should be added (or at least a clarifying note that similar skills for zombies should not be suggested.) {{User:Linkthewindow/Sig}} 08:39, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
::Fair enough. --{{User:Blake Firedancer/sig}} 09:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Ok, guys, I get the point. Was a little rushy with the development, my bad. I understand that we're better off without this suggestion, but the fact remains true that zombies can't fix dark buildings. [[User:Devon lobham|Devon lobham]] 14:12, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
::::Yeah. Zombies can't fix ANY buildings. Dark buildings are intended to be a disadvantage to both zombies and humans, so it's not right to suddenly give zombies a power to fix that while ignoring the survivors.--{{User:SirArgo/Signature}} 18:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
:::::I know that it's a nerf for both sides, what I'm trying to get across is that currently only survivors have a choice to address this problem (by installing generators), so it's actually unfair for zombies. Are you implying that zombies should mrh-getrevived-genny their way to fix a dark building? That'll be a problem to roleplaying. [[User:Devon lobham|Devon lobham]] 14:26, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
'''Kill''' - Unnecessary. Contrary to popular belief, the dark building update wasn't a survivor boost. It nerfed survivors almost as much as zombies. The only ones who really benefitted from dark buildings were PKers and [[HIPS]]ters. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small>
:Who are by definition [[survivors]], as opposed to [[zombies]]. Cunning survivors, to boot. {{User:Revenant/Sig}} 07:13, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
::They're only minorities. The majority of survivors were still nerfed by the update. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small> 07:19, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
:::And the benefit to HIPSters ''is'' [[HIPS#Groping_in_the_dark|somewhat dubious]]. You wouldn't call an update that was only beneficial to [[Life Cultist]]s a zombie boost, would you? --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small> 07:39, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
::::Got an example? I'm not seeing the correlation here. Effective life cultist zombies use blending in with other zombies as their major advantage, very similarly to the way death cultists blend in with survivors. {{User:Revenant/Sig}} 01:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
:::::The point is that it's a minority that doesn't share the goals (or tactics) of the majority, and attributing the boost to the whole group simply makes no sense when the majority doesn't benefit from it. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small> 12:35, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Because they don't play smart. It's not my fault if most survivors don't use the advantages they'e given with any degree of effectiveness. Surviving - as a PKer, to boot - in Monroeville, especially post-quarantine-2, proved conclusively to me the survival advantages of dark buildings. I'm just bummed I lost internet for 5 days and my second Monroevillain died, because he was really fun to play. (I idled the first because all my friends died to [[multi abuse|revenge alts]]. He's  alive and fully stocked.) {{User:Revenant/Sig}} 01:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
::::Monroeville (especially after the second quarantine) was very different from Malton. Even then, dark buildings aren't exactly a boost to HIPSters, they're more of a trade-off. You're more likely to be found if you sleep in a dark building, but less likely to be killed if found.
::::Dark buildings don't work well for non-PKers because of the the cost of maintaining one. You're only protected by the dark, but you need light to maintain the building. What if a zombie takes the barricades down to (for example) QSB? Either you have to spend a lot of AP barricading at half(?)-efficency, or find a genny and fuel. But then you'll have to destroy the genny after barricading because a powered dark building doesn't really offer any additional protection when compared to any other building. Either way, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the cost of rebarricading went over the cost of zombies tearing it back down.
::::Alternatively, you could keep the barricades lower (around VSB) so that it's cheaper to build them, but that carries the risk of break-ins (even a lone zombie can quite easily get inside a VSB building). Zombies are effectively immortal in an unpowered dark building, which is something everyone seems to forget. You have to get the building powered to dump the bodies.
::::Dark buildings either require more work while giving no additional protection (powered), or require an assload more work while giving some additional protection (unpowered). It works for PKers as they don't maintain them. It doesn't work for others. If everyone played as smart as the PKers here, there wouldn't '''be''' any unruined dark buildings. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]]<small><sup>&#124;[[User talk:Midianian|T]]&#124;[[Developing Suggestions|DS]]&#124;[[:Category:Recently Closed Suggestions|C:RCS]]&#124;</sup></small> 12:35, 11 February 2009 (UTC)