View source for Talk:Dulston Defense Death Squad Controversy


== Controversy Concerning Dulston Defense Death Squad and Drunken Dead ==

'''Zombie Spies'''

Zogor, who you have as a zombie spy to be killed on sight, is not, in fact a Zombie spy. He is merely a Zombie, who got revived, started gathering FAK's from Anne General Hospital, then went about healing people for exp in the hopes of getting a level or two of human skills, starting with Diagnosis and then a firearms skill to shoot a few Zombies. Zogor is a roleplaying character, not a dedicated zombie.

He was initially revived in Dulston at the Beale Building, a Necrotech building, and stayed there for a while, managing to convince the locals not to shoot him. He healed a few people and got a bit of experience, but very few people were there and I was wasting ap's using FAK's on those who were unharmed, so i stopped off in then hospotal to stock up, and then moved on to Oake Walk Police Dept.

It was there that he was convicted in a kangaroo court of being a Zombie spy simply because he had 13 zombie skills and no human skills. He was summararily executed, and as a result put out a call on the UD forums for any Zombie interested in destroying the suburb, and a few days later, with thier help, he sacked Oake Walk PD in retaliation.

Zogor was never given a chance to defend himself, and was killed. I accuse the Dulston Defense Death Squad of being Pkers and supporting PKing in thier area.

I invite you to check the forum and see my opinions of Zombie spying. I invited people to do so in game, but they refused and shot me. I will continue getting revived and i will continue entering the PDs at the north of the suburb, getting screenies of the attacks and adding them to the bounty list until such time as a formalm apology is made for your slanderous allegations and Zogor is removed fro the kill on sight list. Your group is already branded a pking group simply by haveing many of your members on the bounty list for what you have done.

For the record i view it as a cheap and pathetic tactic, and if you review all 2000 or so posts of mine you will not once see a post of the contents of a safehouse i did not break into as a zombie.

Also Doogiehowjer and Lord Lucan PKed a bounty hunter (Hank Wimbleton) who came after Doogiehowjer. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 14:01, 6 Nov 2005 (GMT)
: Mr Grim, as founder of Dulston Defense Death Squad, I would point out you don't have to "accuse" us  of being PKers, it is clearly listed in our principles and we list ourselves proudly in the PKers group.  We kill other survivors, (Those ones who happen to be a [[Zombie sympathizer]] or [[Death cultist]] ).  My character, Matthew Stewart, in game asked Zogor if he was a zombie sympathizer and he '''bragged''' that he had helped zombies kill people who had "PKed" him or his friends and in fact had organized a zombie raid on near-by hospital.  We are a hard-line organization, helping or cooperating zombies in anyway while a survivor is justification for being permanently put among their ranks, it is not a forgiving policy but it is a safe policy.  Note that we also endorse killing survivors just for zombie-like names, so admission of actual wrong doing is a few steps beyond that.  It is the D.D.D.S. goal that death cultists or radicals who want to cause trouble  won't get revived within Dulston, and that groups in near-by suburbs take a similar policy.  I view using zombies to get revenge as a cheap tactic, but of course that is just a personal opinion.  Also I would suggest that you edit your entry, perhaps with a spell/grammar checker --[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 14:53, 6 Nov 2005 (GMT)

::Note that he claims to have done these things whilst a zombie, unless I'm mistaken, which would qualify as RP and not traitorous.--[[User:SA-TA-EK-Rumisiel|'STER]] 14:55, 6 Nov 2005 (GMT)
:::Mr 'Ster, well if he was a zombie that would qualify as role play, however so is getting shot for bragging about it while you are a survivor sitting in a PD being asked if you were a [[Zombie sympathizer]].  If that is the case it is unfortunate OOC that he chose his words so poorly.  What he said in game was in essence he was glad a bunch of zombies killed fellow survivors and that he was glad he helped them, the context of whether he was alive or not at the time was assumed to be the worst case scenario (a survivor helping zombies) because what he said was openly hostile and threatening that he'd happily do it again.  This is good role play, though it is too bad it isn't beneficial for his character.  It might be rectifiable; he could convince other that he doesn't support zombies but I suspect he might be a little too bitter for that (and the fact to prove he is sincere would be difficult in itself).  On the bright side he could move where the D.D.D.S. DEATH LIST doesn't mean anything, it isn't like we put him on some Malton wide zombie-spy list.  Maybe he'll learn to be more eloquent.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 15:28, 6 Nov 2005 (GMT)
::::Zogor is a role played character that is very angry at the DCG. When he is Zombie, he eats brains. When he is human, he heals humans until he dies, then he eats brains. As a Human he is more than willing to PK the DCG members (Which would be Bounty hunting). He only got bodybuilding and a flak jacket to spite the DCG, i was originally planning on Diagnosis as my first human skill, however idiots interrupted that plan. While a human i would happily blast zombies were i able, unfortunately the clip and two shells i have dont fire themselves. I was merely giving you an OOC answer with a Character that is normally RP. I will report the locations of the DCG members, but in the PK sightings threads, not the zombie threads. Thats perfectly legitimate. Also, it is perfectly acceptable as a human to wish other humans dead, especially if they have shot you before. Would you not agree? --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 16:42, 6 Nov 2005 (GMT)
::::: I would note that is THE very image of [[Death cultist]] character design, if you wanted to convince people Zogor isn't a death cultist perhaps you should seek to be a reviver/DNA extractor or contruction/tagger as Zogor seems a bit of a non-combat survivor (though i see as a healer that diagonis is a logical skill it is one of the cross class skills and useful as a zombie for picking easy meals).  I am adding not holding grudges against people who have reasonable suspicion that you're a [[death cultist]] or [[zombie sympathizer]] to the standard procedure.  If your character gets on the route on being a full-time survivor (look less like a death cultist, stop letting yourself die) I'll gladly remove him from the DEATH LIST.  The DEATH LIST isn't meant as a punishment rather a segregation tool to keep people who work for zombies labeled as "A zombie" themselves.  When we get this all resolved and Zogor is off the list I intend to replace this discussion with a summery of the issues discussed.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 00:47, 7 Nov 2005 (GMT)

'''War'''

Its a Horde, not a "hive mind"... Lose the redundant terminology. There is no such thing as a non metagaming horde because we cannot communicate in game.

Oh, and you posting our list as a subset of your kill list is a declaration of war. We outnumber you, and we dont need to shamble off for a revive when dead. Those of us who get revived are free to shoot you dead under the gang war exception to the bounty and pking lists.

In accordance with your decision to declare war on us by posting our list on your death list, i will need a complete copy of a list of your groups members. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 19:03, 17 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:There are such things as hordes of [[feral zombie]]s. Second, I do not HAVE a member list as we have open membership, nor would I give you a list if such a list existed as that would be counter to basic security and good policy. However, the memberships of [[Drunken Dead]] should be less worried for being killed for being  [[PKer]]s should that happen and more concerned with being killed for being [[death cultist]]s. I will note on the page that death cultists should be labeled as death cultists not PKers.  To answer your question posted on the Drunken Dead page letting low level death cultists gain xp from using [[FAK]]s '''IS''' dangerous because it leads to them becoming more potent zombies.  Our policy is not to hold buildings but to evacuate and use hit-and-run tactics to xp starve undead.  About your threat to clog the revive points with zombies who have Brain Rot most revive points have that problem at some point which is why the revive point isn't exempt from head shots or cleansing raids.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 17:53, 18 Nov 2005 (GMT)

::Not all of us are "death cultists". We're only members of the Drunken Dead while we're dead. Spying and the like go against horde policy. There's no uniform agenda as to what to do while we're survivors, so we pretty much do our own thing till we get killed again. The hivemind charge is valid, but it's also common practice for most of the groups out there.--[[User:Dread Lime|Dread Lime]]

:::Out of character you seem very reasonable and well spoken, but I point out that IC Drunken Deads group goals are mutually exclusive of the D.D.D.S. policy.  Having organized zombie hordes within Dulston is a threat to all survivors within Dulston. If certain survivors consistently rejoin the hive mind when killed and then participate in brutal and effective raids those survivors are too dangerous to tolerate. They are obviously 'allied' with the zombie horde and a threat.  Leaving living members of a zombie horde alive is like letting a 'sleeper terrorist cell' unchecked.  Also it '''IS''' your groups practice to use survivor knowledge in your raids as proved in the admission of reprisal raids when your characters are killed as survivors. I hope everyone involved OOC with this conflict will enjoy themselves and have fun regardless of the out come, but I expect  gore and bloody IC conflict.(which is the point of zombie games)--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 19:19, 18 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:::: I absolutely agree, the goals of the Drunken dead and DDDS are completely at odds. It's also understood that this is purely an in-game fued, and has no bearing on out of game interaction. One of the pleasures of the game is matching wits with a highly organised and intellegent opponant.  Our reprisal raids are just that, an act of retribution for a wrong committed against a horde member. Rather than bothering with the PK list, we cut out the middleman and respond directly. If you need an in-game justification, a zed would remember where it was killed and if there was food there, and it would alert to horde to its presence.  As for the similarity between revived zeds and terrorist cells, concider that such characters, (specificly nonactive members of the Drunken Dead) are at worst passive threats with the potential to become active high level threats if killed. If anything, a weak potential threat that you can keep under observation is more acceptable than a powerful threat which is more difficult to track. Having a group of stewed ex-zeds mooching off a hospital probably is better than having them hammering at the barricades.--[[User:Dread Lime|Dread Lime]] 16:33, 22 Nov 2005 (GMT)

----

As posted in the wiki article in response to the allegations that we use spies.

Normally i would not edit anothers wiki to make a point, but this is an outright lie. Some members of the [[Drunken Dead]] roleplay, the rest hop out windows or get eaten when they are revived. As you may have noticed we have a strict no spy policy, however we will report WHERE we are pked (Which is not spying, its just an event that happens to our characters). Many of our members are high level and a good many have brain rot. I would appreciate if you could remove these libellious claims from your wiki. Those of us who get revived and have gun skills will PK you in self defense, as ''you'' have declared your intent to kill them on sight. This situation would not have come about but for this list that you stole from our thread on the forums (The only spying that has been done thus far by either group). I ask you to delete that list as well. I am also placing this in your discussion page, but libel needs to be fought out in the open as soon as it is spotted. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 06:30, 19 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Please rectify this situation at once, or i will remove the offending material from your wiki myself--[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 06:33, 19 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:I think posting this spy information when there is no real proof is just silly. My zombie isn't apart of this group, but she is over there and was revived. She is now helping the humans and NOT spying. I know groups like the Drunken Dead and RRF have strict policies on spying; they just don't support it and to be honest and frank there is no need to spy. --[[User:Jacquie|Jacquie]] 06:45, 19 Nov 2005 (GMT)

::I am not saying you are [[zombie spy|zombie spies]] I am saying you are either [[death cultist]]s and/or  zombies part of a dangerous [[hive mind]], however I clarified my word usage concerning  "get enough information" into "gaining enough provocation" which is  a more accurate and fair assessment.  I have not declared "war", I have merely identified your group, as you yourselves have done, and noted you are a threat to all within Dulston('''which is true''').  In what way do you claim this is inaccurate?  From what I understand the [[Drunken Dead]] have killed innocent people within [[Hospital]]s and [[Police department]]s, have posted threatening warnings on their page about clogging [[revivification points]] with brain rotters, then saying they intend to kill the organized defenders regardless of whether the Drunken Dead members are zombies or survivors (which ironically proves the whole point of you being death cultists).  You seem to be personally upset OOC, for that I do apologize. I admit that everything that Drunken Dead are doing (that I am aware of) are fair tactics for a zombie horde.  From what I know you all are good people OOC, you should realize however that doesn't make your characters any less dangerous to Dulston, even the sleeper agents gaining XP from FAK and going about normal survivor business are threats to public safety because they can spend XP gained as a survivor to gain zombies skills when the horde decides to bolster its numbers by reclaiming its sleeper agents (you can't starve a horde into leaving if you let it gain XP while survivors).  I have no reports of your group [[zerging]], which seems to indicate that you have integrity and morals as players, you seem to assume that being on the DEATH LIST means you have done something wrong, which is incorrect.  When you are on the DEATH LIST because you are a member of a horde you are doing something ''right''.  The Drunken Dead have proved themselves dangerous.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 12:31, 19 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:::Your change is insufficient because it still fails to admit that the change in policy (wasting you people as humans) came '''as a direct result of you posting our member list on your kill on sight list'''. When a human kills another human, it is a bounty offense. A human can react in order to defend themselves. 

:::A such, my order to kill you all on sight, even if human, is a form of aggressive self defense. It is hardly being a death cultist. Do characters like my brothers Cosimodo get branded as "death cultists" for pking nine innocent people?

:::Your adding of our member list only allows people to target us as humans, when we are harmless to you all and mean no harm, thus victimising us, which is also not on, and is ''precisely'' the reason why i instructed the members to kill you all on sight.

:::When alive, they are harmless humans or get eaten quickly, when dead they are members of the horde. Is that so difficult for you to get into your skull?

:::Our member list MUST be removed from your site. You have about seven hours to comply before i take it down for you. Your only other option is to provide me with a ''complete and up to date'' listing of your groups members, as is procedure for gang wars (At the moment it is horribly one sided, you have two options, remove the list or make it a gang war). 

:::We have threatened to clog revive points '''if they are moved''', which is pretty mild as a threat goes. Leave them where they are and no Drunken Dead brain rotters will appear.

:::Your ludicrous allegation of spying (And that was exactly what it was) reflects back on '''ME''' ''personally'', as the hordes leader. Of course i would be pissed off, how could possibly i not be? You are directly calling into question my integrity, which i simply will not allow.

:::and we do not gain exp as a human for zombie skills, many of us are having an easier time gaining exp as zombies. Zogor has bought all four of his human skill with exp from being a zombie. We dont need stinking human exp to do what we want, and we wont. We are hardly posing as anything, we live as humans when revived and live as zombies when you die.

:::Your choices are clear.--[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 14:26, 19 Nov 2005 (GMT)

::::I have contacted a moderator, and if I am in the wrong I will do everything they suggest to rectify the situation.  If I am not found in the wrong I would ask that you stop posting unpleasant messages here.  I believe this is a reasonable and civil solution as we could not come to an understanding.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 15:10, 19 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:::::A reasonable solution would be you to remove your kill list from your wiki. Not only is it unsightly, but it is ''deliberately and intentionally'' there to encourage the '''griefing''' of people who have joined the horde i am running. Needless to say, i am furious about this. I am giving 12 extra hours for this moderator to have a look, and after that i will personally remove the offensive content.--[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 21:30, 19 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:::::I gave you another half hour, and still the grief list had not been removed. I removed the offensive content from the wiki myself. Next time ''think'' before you grab a list of innocent names out of a thread and threaten to grief them. Also, your slander has been removed.--[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 10:55, 20 Nov 2005 (GMT)

::::::You don't need a moderator's opinion to enforce anything - the Wiki's maintained by everyone, the admin are just there to delete unwanted pages and ban vandals, they aren't meant to be a respected, judgment-casting elite. But I can't see a problem with a group page having a list of characters it considers itself at odds with, for whatever reason, personally. It's no different to circulating the list through a forum or email; if anything you're helping the victims by publicly warning them. --[[User:Spiro|Spiro]] 11:03, 20 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:::::::Its a kill list Spiro, and there are those of the group that he posted up that play human when human, and zombie when dead. I am one of those people. In essence he is asking everyone in that group to pk me because he doesnt like me playing zombie when dead. Also contained in there were unwarranted allegations of spying and "death cultist" behaviour. Some of us, when we get revived against our wills, find a building or just stand up and get eaten. That is not "death cultist" behavior. Nor is ordering the horde to kill DDDS members on sight as a result of posting the member list on the kill list (Aggressive self defense).

:::::::All that list did was spread lies about my little horde and put out an order to grief them when they get revived. I was well within my rights to delete it. Matthew Stewart can either accept that as a fact or try and validate his choice to post it considering what has been explained here. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 12:00, 20 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Congratulations dickhead. Enjoy being pked over and over and over again. I remove content i found to be offensive and you just throw it back up, well. Its gone again. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 08:59, 22 Nov 2005 (GMT)

-

Hey Matt, couldn't you please see this from our POV? That's not a list of "Death Cultist, Griefer, Member of a Hivemind, Serial Pker, Zerging, Zombie Spy"'s it's more or less just our horde roster... And we were really adamant on not playing our revived selves as part of "the drunken dead" In fact, our members often tear us a new one with the shotty when revived. This list has however just made things feel ...shitty. If we're accused of everything, we could as well do it, see? This won't end in smiles and hugs if we can't reach some kind of compromise... everyone will loose. I don't have the answer for how we're gonna solve this, but ask yourself: 
Would you rather fight a Horde of 30+ Zombies or a Horde of 30+ PK's/Death Cultists, Griefers, Zombie Spies etc.? I would really like for us to fall into the first category, a fun group of people making life in Dulston a bit more interesting... But as things are going, we're practically forced into the other category!

And c'mon, your guys oughta have us all in their contact lists by now... Can't we just put an end to this? --[[User:BobS|BobS]] 03:25, 23 Nov 2005 (GMT)

By the way, feel free to remove this, but atleast give it a thought, eh? --[[User:BobS|BobS]] 03:31, 23 Nov 2005 (GMT)

I know, not exactly Ninja edits, I'm just learning this Wiki-thingy, but I'm trying to keep things civilized. --[[User:BobS|BobS]] 03:39, 23 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:Actually Bob, I will archive this with the rest of the discussion.  You speak well for your group, much better than your leader. I have nothing personal against your group, however you are a hive mind working within Dulston, which is challenging for survivors.  Letting hive mind members gain XP as survivors (so they can "power up" as zombies) does little to help the goal of being able to starve a zombie horde into leaving.  Permitting members of an organized zombie team get revived for �nefarious purposes� (quote from Drunken Dead Wiki06:19, 23 Nov 2005 (GMT)), and behind the barricades to gain xp in complete safety is bad strategy in game. I really understand your point of view, I totally understand if your group buckles down and redoubles their efforts.  While I can see why it might be a reason for hard feelings, I point out it doesn't have to be and it can be approached as a challenge and competition, after all this is a ''game''.
:As a zombie horde your group can have all kinds of fun, we as survivors can have fun too.  We are not taking away your ability to play as a horde, this list just takes away the ability to have your people behind our barricades.  Just because we are on different teams doesn't mean we can't enjoy the game together.  Identifying your group is a public service so survivors can properly organize against you and not waste syringes so people who will become a member of dangerous horde when they die can gain XP safely.  This is about conservation of resources, as well as promoting constructive use of in-genre paranoia.  Griefers just try to make the game frustrating for others without benefit to themselves, taking away safe opportunities zombie characters to gain Xp ''does'' provide strategic benefit  for survivors.  I hope you understand that this does not reflect poorly upon you or your group. Warmest regards--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 06:19, 23 Nov 2005 (GMT)


I added the Member list of the [[Ridleybank Resistance Front]] to your kill list. They are what you call a Hive Mind, and thus have a place on your list. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 09:10, 23 Nov 2005 (GMT)

I see my new zombie character on the list, Ale. I request that you put the reason why she is on the list, beside her name, since she is not a spy, zerger, death cultis, etc, and specify that she will not be killed as a human. If you touch her as a human she will add those PKers to various bounty lists. This should also apply to other people on your list, otherwise this is a PK list and thus, that is not acceptable. Hey it isn't my fault that you people keep reviving me. She doesn't kill her own kind. :) --[[User:Jacquie|Jacquie]] 09:34, 23 Nov 2005 (GMT)

I am deeply offended that my zombie character is not on your list.  I have been slaving night and day for the past 2 weeks to tear down your barricades and eat/claw as many of your group members as I can.  He is also a card carrying member of the Drunken Dead; I complained to the national office about the lack of benefits I was recieving and they directed me here.  I demand recognition.  Here is his profile: [http://www.urbandead.com/profile.cgi?id=183624 APWZ]
By The Way, your spelling sucks.
--[[User:APW|APW]] 03:30, 24 Nov 2005 (GMT)


Just a question about your Death list: Why am i classed as a griefer, when i feel it is you who is the griefer with your list? 
Also, why am i down as a death cultist, when i merely defended myself from a person who has directly stated that he will kill me if he sees me? --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 03:44, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:You are classified as a griefer for the repeated vandalism of the Dulston Defense Death Squad Wiki which is meant to be a public resource for all the players of Dulston.  Hunting down and killing people because they may harm you in the future isn't 'defense', that's 'offense'. Now they say a good defense is a good offense but if you hunted down muggers in the street and shot them to death before they could even make a show of force I doubt very much you could claim "defense".  You were acting directly to further the aims of your group, which is a zombie group, you did this while a survivor which by definition makes you a death cultist.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 04:17, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Excuse me Matthew Stewart, but i asked you a question! Here it is again:

Just a question about your Death list: Why am i classed as a griefer, when i feel it is you who is the griefer with your list? 	 

Also, why am i down as a death cultist, when i merely defended myself from a person who has directly stated that he will kill me if he sees me? --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 03:44, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:I have already answered you question (as you can see from the history), however you may not notice this is all the same topic and is relocated here so I informed you on your Talk page.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 18:19, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)



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'''ACTIVE DISCUSSIONS DO NOT TAKE PLACE IN ARCHIVES! ARCHIVES ARE FOR STORING OLD, COMPLETED DISCUSSIONS, NOT FOR KEEPING POTENTIALLY DAMAGING QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSIONS OUT OF PUBLIC VIEW. ANSWER THE QUESTION HERE. I WILL NOT GO INTO THE ARCHIVES LOOKING FOR IT.'''
----

Excuse me Matthew Stewart, but i asked you a question! Here it is again:	 

Just a question about your Death list: Why am i classed as a griefer, when i feel it is you who is the griefer with your list? 	 
 
Also, why am i down as a death cultist, when i merely defended myself from a person who has directly stated that he will kill me if he sees me? --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 03:44, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:The reason I keep put this in the archive is because it is a dead topic and your posting to it is just the continuation of your policy to spam and otherwise attempt to grief our Wiki.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 04:02, 27 Nov 2005 (GMT)


----
''ACTIVE DISCUSSIONS DO NOT TAKE PLACE IN ARCHIVES! ARCHIVES ARE FOR STORING OLD, COMPLETED DISCUSSIONS, NOT FOR KEEPING POTENTIALLY DAMAGING QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSIONS OUT OF PUBLIC VIEW. ANSWER THE QUESTION HERE. I WILL NOT GO INTO THE ARCHIVES LOOKING FOR IT.'''
----
Excuse me Matthew Stewart, but i asked you a question! Here it is again:

Just a question about your Death list: Why am i classed as a griefer, when i feel it is you who is the griefer with your list? 	+	
	
Also, why am i down as a death cultist, when i merely defended myself from a person who has directly stated that he will kill me if he sees me? --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 03:44, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)

REPLY TO Grim s, the player of Zogor, leader of Drunken Dead:
You are classified as a griefer for the repeated vandalism of the Dulston Defense Death Squad Wiki which is meant to be a public resource for all the players of Dulston. Hunting down and killing people because they may harm you in the future isn't 'defense', that's 'offense'. Now they say a good defense is a good offense but if you hunted down muggers in the street and shot them to death before they could even make a show of force I doubt very much you could claim "defense". You were acting directly to further the aims of your group, which is a zombie group, you did this while a survivor which by definition makes you a death cultist.--Matthew-Stewart 04:17, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)

The reason I keep put this in the archive is because it is a dead topic and your posting to it is just the continuation of your policy to spam and otherwise attempt to grief our Wiki.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 04:24, 27 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:I have no such policy. Also, it is not a dead topic, it is a question regarding you topic. The tag "griefer" only applies in game. If you consider out of game activity to be griefing then every single person in the game (Including you, if it didnt already apply to you that is...) is a griefer.

:I was not acting to further the aims of my group. When i am a human i play a human, it is you who has decided that i should not be allowed to play how i want to play (Both sides) and placed me on a kill on sight list. As such, any action i take, be it shooting you in the head, or torturing you to death with a knife, i classified as self defence, as i have clear reason to believe that you would do the same to me given the chance. If i were acting to further the aims of my group i would spend three or four days gathering ammunition in the mall, then walk into the Whitlock building and kill all the people with lab Experience. I have the skills to make that a viable option, should i choose to do that. I could also march into that building at the time of a scheduled attack and use my crowbar to take down the barricade, yet i do not. On no fewer than two occasions i have also blown the brains out of zombified members of the [[Drunken Dead]], and i have killed at least one zombified member of the [[Bela Lugosi Fan Klub]] as well. I guess killing them furthers the goals of my group, doesnt it? ''*rolls eyes*''

:There is a distinct difference between a mugger, and a person who has stated, quite publicly, that they want to kill not only you, but all your friends. A Mugger is a potential and random threat, a person such as yourself who has done the above is a certain threat, and i am well within my rights to shoot you dead whenever i encounter you, the same as i am perfectly justified in shooting any members of your organisation (Guilt by association, they are part of your group, and that kill list is your groups kill list).

:So, to recap: I am not a griefer (Unless you want to call everyone a griefer in which case the term loses all meaning, and should be removed), and as i have shown i am not a Death Cultist (Unless you want to claim that all people who play the zombie side when dead are Death Cultists).

:I have restored the deleted material, as you are being a "griefer" by deleting it (But you already are a griefer by perpetuating violence against innocents in game despite out of game protests to have thier names removed). One has to wonder why you consider the internet, and the game by extention to be such SERIOUS BUSINESS, so as to warrant the targetted griefing of a few individuals whos only wish is to play the game and have fun.

:Also, i am working on a dispute page which i will link to in your groups NPOV section (Perfectly allowed, i asked [http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/User_talk:LibrarianBrent LibrarianBrent], a wiki mod, about it) where i will be publicly mocking you and showing you to be the petty coward you are. if you dont like us being human, take us out yourself, dont get others to do your dirty work for you. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 13:16, 27 Nov 2005 (GMT

You are classified as a griefer for the repeated vandalism of the Dulston Defense Death Squad Wiki which is meant to be a public resource for all the players of Dulston. Hunting down and killing people because they may harm you in the future isn't 'defense', that's 'offense'. Now they say a good defense is a good offense but if you hunted down muggers in the street and shot them to death before they could even make a show of force I doubt very much you could claim "defense". You were acting directly to further the aims of your group, which is a zombie group, you did this while a survivor which by definition makes you a death cultist.--Matthew-Stewart 04:17, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)
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''ACTIVE DISCUSSIONS DO NOT TAKE PLACE IN ARCHIVES! ARCHIVES ARE FOR STORING OLD, COMPLETED DISCUSSIONS, NOT FOR KEEPING POTENTIALLY DAMAGING QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSIONS OUT OF PUBLIC VIEW. ANSWER THE QUESTION HERE. I WILL NOT GO INTO THE ARCHIVES LOOKING FOR IT.'''
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Excuse me Matthew Stewart, but i asked you a question! Here it is again:

Just a question about your Death list: Why am i classed as a griefer, when i feel it is you who is the griefer with your list? 	+	
	
Also, why am i down as a death cultist, when i merely defended myself from a person who has directly stated that he will kill me if he sees me? --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 03:44, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)

REPLY TO Grim s, the player of Zogor, leader of Drunken Dead:
You are classified as a griefer for the repeated vandalism of the Dulston Defense Death Squad Wiki which is meant to be a public resource for all the players of Dulston. Hunting down and killing people because they may harm you in the future isn't 'defense', that's 'offense'. Now they say a good defense is a good offense but if you hunted down muggers in the street and shot them to death before they could even make a show of force I doubt very much you could claim "defense". You were acting directly to further the aims of your group, which is a zombie group, you did this while a survivor which by definition makes you a death cultist.--Matthew-Stewart 04:17, 26 Nov 2005 (GMT)

The reason I keep put this in the archive is because it is a dead topic and your posting to it is just the continuation of your policy to spam and otherwise attempt to grief our Wiki.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 04:24, 27 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:I have no such policy. Also, it is not a dead topic, it is a question regarding you topic. The tag "griefer" only applies in game. If you consider out of game activity to be griefing then every single person in the game (Including you, if it didnt already apply to you that is...) is a griefer.

:I was not acting to further the aims of my group. When i am a human i play a human, it is you who has decided that i should not be allowed to play how i want to play (Both sides) and placed me on a kill on sight list. As such, any action i take, be it shooting you in the head, or torturing you to death with a knife, i classified as self defence, as i have clear reason to believe that you would do the same to me given the chance. If i were acting to further the aims of my group i would spend three or four days gathering ammunition in the mall, then walk into the Whitlock building and kill all the people with lab Experience. I have the skills to make that a viable option, should i choose to do that. I could also march into that building at the time of a scheduled attack and use my crowbar to take down the barricade, yet i do not. On no fewer than two occasions i have also blown the brains out of zombified members of the [[Drunken Dead]], and i have killed at least one zombified member of the [[Bela Lugosi Fan Klub]] as well. I guess killing them furthers the goals of my group, doesnt it? ''*rolls eyes*''

:There is a distinct difference between a mugger, and a person who has stated, quite publicly, that they want to kill not only you, but all your friends. A Mugger is a potential and random threat, a person such as yourself who has done the above is a certain threat, and i am well within my rights to shoot you dead whenever i encounter you, the same as i am perfectly justified in shooting any members of your organisation (Guilt by association, they are part of your group, and that kill list is your groups kill list).

:So, to recap: I am not a griefer (Unless you want to call everyone a griefer in which case the term loses all meaning, and should be removed), and as i have shown i am not a Death Cultist (Unless you want to claim that all people who play the zombie side when dead are Death Cultists).

:I have restored the deleted material, as you are being a "griefer" by deleting it (But you already are a griefer by perpetuating violence against innocents in game despite out of game protests to have thier names removed). One has to wonder why you consider the internet, and the game by extention to be such SERIOUS BUSINESS, so as to warrant the targetted griefing of a few individuals whos only wish is to play the game and have fun.

:Also, i am working on a dispute page which i will link to in your groups NPOV section (Perfectly allowed, i asked [http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/User_talk:LibrarianBrent LibrarianBrent], a wiki mod, about it) where i will be publicly mocking you and showing you to be the petty coward you are. if you dont like us being human, take us out yourself, dont get others to do your dirty work for you. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 13:16, 27 Nov 2005 (GMT)

::About Zombie Group Memebers being put on the DEATH LIST, I make no statement that this is a empathetic, merciful or forgiving policy, I only note it is the best and most effective policy to keep survivors safe in the long run.  Allowing Zombie Groups to gain safe XP while survivors is directly counter to the only current method to convince zombie hordes to move on; which is to remove their sense of success and convince them other pastures are greener.  As zombie we can use [[Distributed Defense]] to frustrate their XP gaining activity, as survivors nothing can stop them from gaining xp they can use as zombies except making them zombies. --[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 04:24, 27 Nov 2005 (GMT)

:::That exp gained as a human will be used on human skills, unless, of course, you drop by and shoot them dead, in which case they find themselves as very pissed off zombies with a whole pile of exp. The Drunken Dead will not leave Dulston, so griefing them to get them to go away is doomed from the start (As you may have noticed, some individuals have instead taken to killing you and members of your organisation instead, utilising a loophole in the bounty rules which allows us to report your members for being pkers, but allows us to freely kill you, the ultimate goal, of course, being to show you that your death list is far more trouble than it is worth. As such i will contnue to relay to you the consequences of your death list, as you deserve to know.

:::Also, your stated means of handling zombies in your last response make it clear that your group is a Pking group, i ask you to adjust your classification appropriately. Griefing is never a valid option. We are here for fun at the moment, but we are also very stubborn and vengeful. Continue to hassle us at your own peril. Do not delete this again, or i will contact a moderator about your insistance on deleting active discussions. --[[User:Grim s|Grim s]] 01:22, 28 Nov 2005 (GMT)
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:::: Fair enough. Also when this page was first created we were listed as a PKer group (as is any group that doesn't tolerate all survivors). Other people have shown they don't consider our policies to classified "murder".  However I am happy to rectify the change.  We promote the killing of zombie spies, death cultists, griefers, and those who threaten Dulston (which includes zombie horde members) which is not an unreasonable standard.  While you don't like our policies (and I can't blame you, they directly hamper your stated goal to destroy Dulston) that doesn't mean they are wrong. As you can see the actual discussion is rather sprawling, and I propose we move it to a third site (perhaps a page dedicated to the topic specifically) or on both Drunken Deads Discussion Page and DDDS discussion pages. --[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 06:07, 28 Nov 2005 (GMT)

Since this hasn't been added to the drunken dead page I will move it to its own page.--[[User:Matthew-Stewart|Matthew-Stewart]] 19:41, 30 Nov 2005 (GMT)