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| =Purpose=
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| The goal of this discussion is to gather ideas on how to change [[UDWiki:NPOV|NPoV]] best to make the wiki an interactive news source while still allowing users to post competing PoV and such in news posts on [[suburbs]] and location blocks. Newer additions from editing standard upgrades like the [[LSG|Location Style Guide]] have significantly changed the use of these affected pages as they've simultaneously made the need for accuracy in reports less prevalent through changes like the [[User:DangerReport]] system and [[Suburbs|interactive]] [[SIM|danger]] [[Mall Status Map|maps]] which provide a inherently Neutral point of view information source.
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| In addition to these changes to the standard homes of NPoV disputes group and event pages have grown away from the standards put in place 4-5 years ago putting in place editing guidelines calling for NPoV header sections and lead in for groups in all but the most extreme cases while event pages have steadily become increasingly PoV, often with one side not even being allowed to be involved in the event page's development before it goes to [[:Category:Historical Events|Historical Voting]] or gets [[A/PT|permanently locked]].
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| While it's understood not all of these issues are likely to be settled over the course of this discussion it is at least worthwhile to try and make the attempt to find a new set of standards for editing guidelines and PoV in these various problem areas. All comments are welcomed and as consensus become clear they will be added to the [[{{SUBJECTPAGENAME}}|Project Page]] so as this can become a fuller accounting of editing expectations throughout the wiki.
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| ==Discussion==
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| ===Group NPOV Sections===
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| Do you have any examples of old groups with a NPOV section on them, just to give an indication of how it's meant to work?--[[User:Yonnua Koponen|<span style="color: DarkOrange">Yonnua Koponen</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Yonnua Koponen| <span style="color:Gold">T</span>]][[DvB| <span style="color: Goldenrod">G</span>]]</sup><sup><span class="stealthexternallink">[http://www.urbandead.com/profile.cgi?id=840689 <span style="color: DarkGoldenrod"> P</span>] </span></sup> [[User:Yonnua Koponen/Sandbox|<span style="color: Red">^</span>]][[Discosaurs|<span style="color: Red">^</span>]][[{{TALKPAGENAME}}#Donkey|<span style="color: Red">^</span>]] 23:52, 17 April 2011 (BST)
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| :[[Crossman_Defense_Force#NPOV]], [[Malton_DEA]], pretty sure the [[DHPD]] currently has one. It usually represented as an [[NPOV]] [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Lead_section|Lead Section]]. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 00:42, 18 April 2011 (BST)
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| ::That Crossman Defense Force page is a perfect example of the problem. Oh hey there's controversy, oh hey this leader was controversial. The NPOV section can't talk about what people found objectionable without leaving NPOV, but the group-maintained part of the article isn't going to talk about anything bad, so who the fuck knows what the controversy was about if you're just going by the page. As long as the page owners give a shit (which the Malton DEA clearly didn't), they'll argue the NPOV into a flat description and pump themselves up with the rest. My suggestion: let the page owners say what they want with page-owner POV, and have an Outsider POV section near the top where people that aren't part of Dicksucking Tour 2011 can offer some alternative perspective on the page. Actual balance instead of bureaucracy and page protections. [[User:I WARNED YOU ABOUT TEMPLATES BRO|I WARNED YOU ABOUT TEMPLATES BRO]] 01:18, 18 April 2011 (BST)
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| :::Which is actually part of the reason why this discussion is being started. Obviously people don't want it, or it's considered particularly necessary. At least not for groups, and at least not until the groups get involved in some stupid drama. Honestly, for owned pages it should probably be completely dropped except when added due to an arbitration case which should be the extremely rare exception. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 01:35, 18 April 2011 (BST)
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| ::::Yeah, the NPOV on group pages is a pretty lame idea, honestly. The [[SoC]] does it, but that's mostly because we want to head off any issues later, should they arise. Ditching it except in cases of arbies (which would, at most, require that a notice be at the top which says something like, "The content of this page is owned by X group, and can say whatever they want, however they want, so long as no wiki rules are broken") seems like the best idea. Anything more than that and it's being used to bully groups around. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 03:42, 18 April 2011 (BST)
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| :::::Dropping all objective commentary is not a solution; it makes every group page completely irrelevant. Just take a look at the page for [[The Fortress]]. It's incoherent shit and impossible to decipher anything meaningful from. I'm sure someone had hours of fun tightening up the graphics on that turd, but it serves no functional purpose for anyone else using the wiki because it provides no useful information. Letting people create Outsider POV sections would still let people have a ball with their wannabe Geocities pages, but it would make room for objective summaries or criticisms of group activity. [[User:I WARNED YOU ABOUT TEMPLATES BRO|I WARNED YOU ABOUT TEMPLATES BRO]] 05:52, 18 April 2011 (BST)
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| While I believe that there should be some sort of option to insert an impartial, explainitary section on some group pages, perhaps we should limit it's use a bit, and be a bit flexible about where it is placed. If a group page is shown to be deliberately misleading about the nature of the group, for example overestimating their size (by a large margin, including alt abuse issues) or misrepresenting their orientation (survivor/zombie/PKer/dual nature), then a NPOV section on the main page would be appropriate. In other cases, where a group is controvertial, or influential in the game, and an impartial statement on their nature/impact could be placed on a sub page (which wouldn't, however, be a group owned page).<br />I think the biggest problem we have with NPOV sections at the moment, is that they are usually only fought over by involved parties, and impartial input is only done to try to put a stop to the drama <small>-- <span style="text-shadow: #bbb 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em">[[User:Boxy|<span style="color: Red">boxy</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Boxy|<span style="color: Red">talk</span>]] • [[The Rules|teh rulz]]</sup> 06:36 18 April 2011 (BST)</span></small>
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| ===Suburb POV Sections===
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| I don't know how this would be done, and still keep the suburb pages information orientated rather than filled with propoganda (to an even greater degree than now) <small>-- <span style="text-shadow: #bbb 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em">[[User:Boxy|<span style="color: Red">boxy</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Boxy|<span style="color: Red">talk</span>]] • [[The Rules|teh rulz]]</sup> 06:36 18 April 2011 (BST)</span></small>
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| :Well, we already have methods to provide the information needed. Primarily the news section is less actively updated than the various Danger Reports templates on those same pages. [[Bale Mall]] is a particularly good example of that. In addition to that the notoriety of those templates, and the fact that they're an inherently neutral update system along with the fact that we can always retain NPOV rules for ''those'' should make the need for information still present and primary(it's easier to see). Other than that, has there really been anything but drama generated from the removal of propaganda on the older news sections? I know my history with it was such that even with fairly straight forward removals of PoV there was always someone willing to fight for their signed comment and they probably really shouldn't have to. --<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev#Buildings_Update_Danger_Maps|maps 2.0?!]]</font></sup></small> 07:22, 18 April 2011 (BST)
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