UDWiki talk:Administration/Policy Discussion/Permaban Appeal Revisions

This is the space for discussing the proposed Permaban Appeal Account Creation policy. Specific questions I have include:

1. Should the account be able to create the appeal or only comment once it has been initiated by another user? I have it as the former, but I can see arguments for the latter.
2. Should the account be able to comment on the talk page, or only on the Appeal vote itself? Do I need to clarify archive versus main A/DE pages?
3. Is the mention of the lack of other privileges and/or banning the account after the vote is over clear enough?
4. Anything else you may want to discuss.

Have at it, y'all. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 16:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Seems workable to me. 17:29, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

A Different Proposal

So I think the Permaban Apeals policy could use some rephrasing, but I don't think it needs to be this. Users are banned, for the most part because they ignored or were unaware of some rules. Adding new rules about how they can use alternate accounts would cause problems, I would think. The existing vandalism policy regarding vandal alts is almost as old as the wiki itself, so it would be better to reinforce that.
I'd suggest adding something like Permabanned users may not comment on their own appeal. Use of alternate accounts during an appeal may be dealt with according to the Vandalism Policy and may result in the appeal being withdrawn.
I think we should then set up some sort of method for permabanned users to choose a representative for them if they choose. It could be similar to Arbitration; a list of users available to speak on the behalf of a permabanned user during an appeal. ~ _{17:32, 23 February 2013 (UTC)}

Are there others out there who share this preference? I'm personally of the opinion that people should be able to comment on matters that directly concern them, like their own unbanning. I also think that the behavior of such a user during the deperma vote process can be illustrative and help those voting to come to a decision, especially if they'd otherwise be voting on things which occurred entirely before they arrived on the wiki (as with myself in Izumi's case). Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 18:08, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

In addition to my reasons above, I feel that by giving banned users access to only the A/DE page, you'd be restricting them from fully discussing the terms of their appeal. Discussion may take place on other parts of the wiki (talk pages, A/VB, Misconduct and now Policy Discussion to use the Izumi example). A representative would be able to openly discuss the appeal outside of A/DE if necessary.

Having said that, I would accept that, under some circumstances, a represntative may request that a banned user be temporarily unbanned on an as-needed basis (such as to provide some information not easily conveyed by a representative). At that point, certain editing restrictions could be defined by the sysop administering the temporary unban. ~ _{20:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)}

I kinda disagree. Giving banned users access to only the DE page has little bearing on whether or not other users can choose to advocate on that same page or elsewhere. You and I, right now, could advocate for Izumi on any talk page or related-page. We could go all super-saiyan or whatever and pull-out all the stops in convincing people that choosing not to unban Izumi is not only an affront to humanity, but also threatens the very fabric of society. There is no formal list of wiki-Matlocks on the arbitration page for representing (not arbitrating but representing) and yet people volunteer all the time to represent a side, presumably because they see merit in the case. Why is there a need to formalize that process? -MHSstaff 21:12, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

The examples you've given aren't directly related to whether or not the appeal goes through, however, which is all that the banned user should care about. I can see an argument for allowing them to comment on A/VB in cases where they're about to receive a fresh escalation, since that would affect the success of their appeal, but A/M is unrelated to the success of their case, even if it may be related to the case itself, A/PD would never affect them unless they started an appeal while a policy was in mid-vote (and even then, I feel that that is out of their control and that they have no right to comment), and, at least in this case, talk pages outside of the UDWiki namespace would have had no relation if Izumi hadn't posted on them first. I'm fine with allowing them to comment on admin talk pages that are related to their case, but certainly not user talk pages. All-in-all, most of what I said can be condensed into a simple phrasing I posted below, though I'll need to consider the A/VB issue. —Aichon— 21:15, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Let me also clarify some other things. My proposal is also something I put forward to help prevent abuse while still giving banned users a voice. Let me run through a couple of scenarios.

1. A banned user is being appealed. The community is split on its decision and is being hotly debated. The banned user is keeping comments on the A/DE page but another line of discussion is taking place in a user's talk page. Despite there being a policy which prevents the banned user from commenting ouside of A/DE, the user adds to the discussion. This violates policy and therefore the appeal is shut down entirely for six months or longer.
2. A user has been banned for harrassment and is later put up for appeal. The user is allowed to comment on their appeal and uses the oppurtunity further the harrassment. Or perhaps they see that their appeal clearly has no support and they go on a harassment spree.

Both of these situations could be avoided by simply leaving the user accounts banned. My proposal just gives them the option of a voice during the appeal.

To address MHStaff's comments, I am open to different ways in which representative can be presented. It could simply be a raise of hands during the appeal, a list of potential representatives like on A/A or something else entirely. Obviously, it would need to be someone that either feels strongly about the appeal (like the person making the appeal in the first place) or some other volunteer willing to act as the mouthpiece. ~ _{21:56, 23 February 2013 (UTC)}

Well, we effectively allow that already, so why regulate it? The person making the appeal can act as the representative. We don't need any special lists of users or the like, right? As for your cases, yes, those could happen, but in the case of the first I'd suggest that sidebar discussions aren't their business anyway, and in the case of the second, they'll only be able to do that once or twice before placing an appeal for that person will start to be considered a form of abuse of the system since the person placing the appeal would be aiding the act of harassment. It's not perfect, admittedly, but I think it's better than formalizing something like that. —Aichon— 21:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I didn't make it clear, but the banned user would need to choose the user to represent them. It's one thing to volunteer and to be accepted as a representative. Its another to do so without the approval of the banned user. I'm also fine with the status quo and have no official outside representaion, but I put it out there as a compromise. In any case, I think the potential for abuse or for technicalities causing the whole thing to be shut down should be enough not to allow banned users these limited editing permissions. ~ _{22:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)}

Common sense

I'm new to UD wiki politics, so I don't get why you're so trigger happy about inventing new policies. Secondary accounts or messangers? Here is my suggestion for something simpler (copied from Wikipedia):

In some cases, a banned editor may be unblocked for the purpose of filing an appeal. In such cases, editing of any unrelated page or other matter is grounds for immediate re-blocking.

Let them comment on A/DE, if they step outside that block again. With some rewording this could be used as a minor revision to existing laws. --Labla 18:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I support this. →Son of Sin← 18:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

That looks to be an ancillary rule to the normal appeal process on Wikipedia. They require that a banned user use their own talk page (Wikipedia allows banned users to edit their own talk page in most cases) or email and state their case an Arbitration commitee. Unbanning users so they can state their case looks to be a special priveledge give to people under certain circumstances after the appeal process is started. ~ _{20:09, 23 February 2013 (UTC)}

I rather like the idea of simply unbanning the main account with some stipulations in place, rather than having them create an additional account, since it makes things easier to track. —Aichon— 21:09, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Simple. Makes sense. Maybe give some leeway to sysops to deny this privilege if it banned users use it solely to flood/shit up the DE page. -MHSstaff 21:13, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Rework

Regarding the proposed text additions, I'd condense both pieces into something along these lines and place them where the first block of new text is located:

After an appeal has been filed, the banned user may request that their primary account be unbanned for the duration of the voting period so that they may comment on their case. The banned user is neither permitted to vote nor edit pages other than administration pages related to their appeal and its success. Using other accounts, editing pages other than those permitted, or engaging in any form of vandalism will result in the permaban being re-applied and the appeal being cycled immediately.

Allowing them to post their own appeal is a bad idea, since part of the original idea was that current users could be held accountable for any abuse of the system. Allowing self-appeals negates that. Also, as above, using their original account is a smart idea, since it means we have less to track and that they can use the name they're best known by. And with wording along these lines, we can condense both of the currently-proposed blocks of text into a single block that handles it all. —Aichon— 21:09, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Added the "and its success" in order to try and address issues like A/VB cases that might affect whether or not an appeal continues. —Aichon— 21:17, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

How do they request the ban lift? -MHSstaff 21:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I intentionally left that unspecified. Other than that they must make the request themselves, which was specified, I figure it's fine for them to make the request of a sysop on a forum, via IRC, e-mail, etc., and most of the sysops make an effort to be accessible in case of situations like these. The whole point is just to ensure that we're not automatically unbanning uninvolved people. —Aichon— 22:04, 23 February 2013 (UTC)