View source for Suggestion:20070810 Demolition (knives & crowbars vs. barricades)

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===20070810 Demolition (knives & crowbars vs. barricades)===

<sub>[[NT Status Map|&Delta;]]</sub><sup>[http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Swiers &zwnj;]</sup><sub>[[Signature Race|&Delta;]]</sub>&nbsp;[[User:Swiers|Swiers]]&nbsp;[[Image:BigEYEwitnessLOGOgrey.png|60px]] 04:50, 10 August 2007 (BST)

'''Suggestion type'''<br />
item adjustment, new skill

'''Suggestion scope'''<br />
survivors, knives, crowbars, barricades

'''Suggestion description'''<br />
''introduction'':  
:Survivors sometimes need to attack [[barricades]].  The game allows this, but the mechanics for it are currently a bit odd.<br>Some weapons ([[guns]]) have zero effect on barricades.  Most [[melee weapons]] can be used, but hit only half as often as normal.  The [[crowbar]] is unique in that it hits at its full normal rate.  And all of that makes sense.<br>However, the [[knife]], in the hands of a skilled user, has a 50% chance to hit most targets, and thus has a 25% chance of breaking down a barricade.  Meanwhile, the best chance you ever get to hit with a crowbar is 20%- meaning it is ultimately an inferior tool to the knife when it comes to de-barricading.  This suggestion aims to fix that situation.

''mechanics'':  
*Knives would have no effect on barricades.  Zombie bites don't hurt barricades.  Guns (including shotgun blasts) do not hurt barricades.  Why should a knife be any more use?
*There would be a new civilian skill called "Demolition".  "Construction" would be a pre-requisite to buy this skill.  "Demolition" would give a +10% to hit when using a crowbar.  This could be used in combat with a zombie (or survivor) but is mostly intended to boost the hit rate of a crowbar to 30% so that it can be used (given the right skill) against barricades with better effect than a fire axe.

''effects:''
:Although the crowbar would be better against barricades than the knife currently is, it also is heavier and not nearly as useful in general combat.  Those seeking a weapon that is also a tool would most likely fall back on the Fire Ax, which (with full skills) reaches a 20% chance of barricade demolition, and is an even more formidable weapon than the knife.  The knife would retain its niche as a newbie / fallback weapon, but the [[crowbar]] would take back the useful and unique roll that the [[knife]] currently usurps.

'''Note: knifes no effect on 'cades part implemented without official announcement about 24th of August 2007'''
====Voting Section====
{{SugVoteBox}}


'''Keep Votes'''
#'''keep''' i like it and it makes sense.--{{User:Blood Panther/Sig}} 06:06, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Attacking barricades with a knife is just silly. Not to sure about the demolition skill (may be seen as a griefing skill by trency types), but the crowbar does need a boost, at least against the 'cades <small>The preceding signed comment was added by [[User:Boxy|boxy]] ([[User talk:Boxy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Boxy|contribs]]) at 06:14 10 August 2007 (BST)</small>
#'''Keep''' - The zombie part is especially nice, but one point. Do zombies get the HtH bonus for Crowbar accuracy or not? Cause if not then it's kinda a worthless change that only helps survivors.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 06:22, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#:It should probably be consistent with other normal zombie weapon use.  I'd personally prefer if zombies were not benefiting, because zombies shouldn't be using tools, both for flavor reason and game balance- claws already can take down barricades at 25% anyhow.  Game balance wise, what ELSE does a zombie need in their inventory?  Its not like they have to worry about encumbracne.  But that 4% on an item you very rarely use can be rather annoying to a survivor.  <sub>[[NT Status Map|&Delta;]]</sub><sup>[http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Swiers &zwnj;]</sup><sub>[[Signature Race|&Delta;]]</sub>&nbsp;[[User:Swiers|Swiers]]&nbsp;[[Image:BigEYEwitnessLOGOgrey.png|60px]] 08:59, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#::Ah, but see that brings up a bit of an issue, survivors don't need an easier time on Barricades, zombies do, survivors already have a better hit rate on barricades and it may be possible part of the change to barricades for indoor removal may have worked in a way that the crowbar is actually better than the knife for it. You must remember that the new barricade destruction stats actually haven't been calculated, we don't even know exactly what the change was beyond they are easier to tear down inside than they are outside.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 00:49, 13 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - I like it, it'd make crowbars actually have a use later game. -- [[User:SgtBop|<font color="black"><b>SgtBop</b></font>]]<sup>[[User talk:SgtBop|<font color="black"><small>Talk</small></font>]]|[[Maris Viridis|<font color="black"><small>Maris Viridis</small></font>]]</sup> 06:45, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' --[[User:Saromu|Sonny Corleone]] <sup>[[ The Ridleybank Resistance Front|RRF]] [[Council of Leaders|CoL]] [[DORIS]] [[Caiger Resistance Front|CRF]] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91a8pHj7V9k pr0n]</sup> 07:03, 10 August 2007 (BST)
# I think a necessary addition.  Weaons need differentiation and the crowbar already HAS that, it's just useless relative to knives.  A "freshly" killed survivor would have only a 12.5% chance to hit a barricade.  15% with this skill.  And, to answer {{User:Karek/sig}}'s question, no HTH does not apply to zombies.  So the zombie would be limited to 15% to hit.--[[User:Pesatyel|Pesatyel]] 07:13, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep/Change''' Good idea. Instead of a new skill, though, maybe you could just change the way crowbars work. Instead of double the chance of hitting a barricade that normal weapons have, make it 2.5X or 3X better. --[[User:Steakfish|Steakfish]] 07:30, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - <s>Leave the money in the provided attache case under the bridge.</s> I've wondered about this for a while.--[[User:Labine50|Labine50]] <sup>[[Malton Hospitals Group|MHG]]|[[Malton Emergency Medical Service|MEMS]]</sup> 08:00, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''keep''' but the bonus (or at least half of it) should also apply to axes, pipes and unarmed combat! Arguably zeds with MoL could gain the bonus too but unless it includes unarmed then it would be pointless coding it. --[[User:Honestmistake|Honestmistake]] 08:01, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - i din't notice before that attacking cades with knife is more effective. Also all the staff about halved percentages is quite hidden from publicity and should be more flaunted --[[User:Duke Garland|<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]]<sub>[[User talk:Duke Garland|T]]</sub><sup>[[LCD|']][[Signature Race|']][[SSZ|']]</sup> 08:31, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep/Change''' - As per my suggestion on the Discussion Page regarding this, I would propose that the +10% only apply towards attacks against Barricades and not attacks against Survivors/Zombies. Also that Demolition would effect Crowbar(Max 30%), Fire Axe(Max 25%), and Length of Pipe(Max 17.5%), and that all other HTH weapons lose their ability to effect Barricades just as the Knife would. I think this is more consistent with the internal logic of the game as Demolition is not really a Combat Skill (which is the domain of the Military Skills) but more a general knowledge of how to bring down structures.--[[User:Sara M|Sara M]] 10:55, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - I could have sworn I already put my vote in...--{{User:Suicidalangel/Sig}} 10:57, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep/Change''' - As Sara M. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]] 12:34, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' Go with it. --[[User:Seventythree|Seventythree]] 15:06, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Death cultist says 'YAY!' --[[User:The Hierophant|The Hierophant]] 16:32, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#:I suspect death cultists say "meh".  The people who have to clear the entry points that death cultists over barricade, on the other hand, will be pretty happy.  <sub>[[NT Status Map|&Delta;]]</sub><sup>[http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Swiers &zwnj;]</sup><sub>[[Signature Race|&Delta;]]</sub>&nbsp;[[User:Swiers|Swiers]]&nbsp;[[Image:BigEYEwitnessLOGOgrey.png|60px]] 17:04, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep.''' - Overall I like. I don't like how this would be used by Death Cultists and CR'd zombies, but that's neither here nor there. It's a good idea that makes sense from a real-world perspective. {{User:Sushiknight/sig}} 16:35, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Beep''' - Ok I totally didn't read this. ''Is this a good suggestion?'' --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 17:08, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep/Change''' - Change as per Sara M. Personally, I'd rather see crowbars themselves get a change to make them more effective in this manner, but this is also pretty good. ----[[User:Doctor Venom|Doctor Venom]] 17:33, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' I like it, 1. it has a new skill, those are good. 2. it's balancing, this is good too... --[[User:Lord Evans|Lord Evans]] 19:04, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' Useful and interesting. [[User:Srekto|Srekto]] 19:34, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' Death cultist friendly and survivor friendly.--[[User:Wooty|Wooty]] 20:43, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep/Change''' _ I like it but it could be seen as a possible griefing tool.[[User:Chill|Chill]] 21:29, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Trenchcoaters won't like this. Good. --[[User:Pavluk|Pavluk]] 22:55, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep/Change''' - I would say keep the other weapons the way they are and only give this new skill for crowbars. I usually think of the knife as a rather large knife and as such it would be quiet useful for prying things apart and taking down cades. I like this mostly because it makes the crowbar useful but doesnt actually change much number wise. +~2 hits scored against cades a day isn't something to be worried about griefing wise. --[[User:Dipcup|Dipcup]] 23:02, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Yes. --[[User:Druuuuu|Druuuuu]] 00:25, 11 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' We needed a new skill this is a good one. --{{User:Evildemon989/Sig}} 01:21, 11 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' Makes perfect sense and doesn't break the game. --[[User:JohnRubin|JohnRubin]] 09:37, 11 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' Perne want that. --[[User:Perne|Perne]] 10:29, 11 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep/Change''' - I'd rather the demolition skill apply to just affecting barricades and not all attacks. I could also see it applying the 10% for a fire axe than a crowbar, because its main purpose is to chop through doors and move rubble for firemen. --[[User:Akule|Akule]] <sup>School's in session. </sup> 17:00, 11 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep/Change''' - Knives shouldn't do anything to barricades, definitely.  I don't see the need for a specific de-cading skill, though.--[[User:Jiangyingzi|Jiangyingzi]] 01:45, 12 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' -  Makes sense. I can't see myself prying a vending machine to one side with with a knife. A crowbar, on the other hand, would shift it no problem. If the bonus is made to apply to axes as others have suggested, it should be to a lesser degree, since Axe Proficiency already exists for those who want to use them on barricades, and the crowbar should still be more useful in this regard, if for no other reason that to make them worth bothering with. --[[User:Pestilent Bob|Pestilent Bob]] 15:14, 12 August 2007 (BST) 
#'''Keep''' - I believe Axe Hack said it best.  It's good for zombies and PKers, bad for legit survivors.  I use legit survivors, and they only die when the whole town does.  It's too easy.  PKers  could make it all more interesting.  Just make sure it doesn't give the people inside EXP to take the barricades down and they'll only use it if they really need to. --[[User:Howard Bentley|Howard Bentley]] 20:33, 12 August 2007 (BST)
#:Zombies are the only ones who get XP for destroying barricades.  Survivors do not, whether inside or out.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 23:33, 12 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Hell yeah! --{{User:Dux Ducis/sig}} 01:38, 13 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Not that you need more votes, but I always thought the maxed-out knife = better than crowbar was a little silly. --[[User:Animi|Animi]] 19:50, 15 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - It really quite logical. -- [[User:BigJD|JD]] 06:08, 16 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Like it. That's what the crowbar is meant to be.--{{User:PsychoLychee/Sig}} 15:46, 20 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Balanced. --[[User:Brainz|Brainz]] 15:54, 20 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - A-ok.--[[User:Macampos|Private Mark]] 21:10, 23 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Great''' - It's an awesome suggestion, but i don't like the "Knives have no effect" bit. Perhaps "Knives have only quarter accuracy". I'm still voting keep though. [[User:BoboTalkClown|BoboTalkClown]] 16:42, 24 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep, but Change''' - I like it, but there is one thing. Wouldn't decading be easier with the ''hands'' rather than whaking it with something? I mean, removing peices of the barricades... I might have to suggest something along that line... Anyway, Change that from +10% to Crowbar Acc, to +10% vs 'Cades with Improvised (maybe Fist, too), and we're in business! --[[User:Driaquer|Driaquer]] 01:09, 27 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' I was considering proposing something like this, however, this removes any importance of knives, and the +10% in battle doesn't strike me well. Leave knives alone, and make it against cades only, and we're good.--[[User:Afterdeath|Afterdeath]] 21:56, 31 August 2007 (BST)
#:Knives are already a done deal.  As of Aug 24 or so, knives no longer can affect barricades in any way.  You get the message "The Barricade has nothing to cut away" or some such.  (Knives are otherwise un-changed, but it does invalidate the knife section of this.  I have yet to test my crowbar on some barricades, but it wouldn't shock me if they got a boost to make them better than a fire ax in that situation.    {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 00:35, 1 September 2007 (BST)

'''Kill Votes'''
#Something for the PKers to help the zombies.  Good for zombies, bad for survivors.  No. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 13:29, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Very logical, but I can see this being very useful for death cultists and PKers. Maybe if the increase in the crowbar's chance to hit only applied until barricades got down to VSB - that way, it would be useful for people trying to get in, without providing such an advantage to PKers, griefers, and other unsavory characters. --[[User:Saluton|Saluton]] 18:02, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#:It is a 5% boost over the current knife ability.  That means a dedicated death cultist with a crowbar would at most (if they were inclined to spend 50 AP attacking barricades, rather than killing people and wrecking genrators) score 2.5 total extra hits a day on barricades under this system vs the current one.  Not really much of a boost, eh?  In exchange, they have to haul around a more encumbering tool (4% for crowbar vs 2% for knife) which is very poor for general combat, and also far from optimal for destroying generators and radios.  Which means they also likely have to carry a knife or an axe, which means they can't carry as much ammo...<br>Smart death cultists leave the barricade bashing to zombies (which they do very well, and get experience for) and instead they OVER-barricade entry points so that people die when they go outside.  Shouldn't survivors be worried about defending against THAT?  <sub>[[NT Status Map|&Delta;]]</sub><sup>[http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?Swiers &zwnj;]</sup><sub>[[Signature Race|&Delta;]]</sub>&nbsp;[[User:Swiers|Swiers]]&nbsp;[[Image:BigEYEwitnessLOGOgrey.png|60px]] 20:00, 10 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Change''' -Scrap the knife bit, the crowbar bit rocks though.--[[User:AlexanderRM|AlexanderRM]] 03:13, 13 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Change''' - Yes to the knife part, but no to the part that makes survivors better at hitting barricades than zombies. --&nbsp;[[User:Toejam|<small><span style="border:solid #000000 1px; background-color: #FFFFFF; color: black">&nbsp;T&nbsp;</span></small>]]&nbsp; 11:27, 13 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Change''' I love my knife! Boo! Hiss! Keep the Demolition part. --[[User:Secruss|Secruss]] 04:21, 16 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' I do not like the new skill at all. New skills without very good rationale are bad and IMO the rationale for this is too weak. Also, it's totally logical that a knife could damage a barricade: I've used knives to pry many a thing open in my day. All that's needed is a simple buff to crowbar vs. barricades, somehow... --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 01:05, 25 August 2007 (BST)


'''Spam/Dupe Votes'''