UDWiki talk:Administration/Policy Discussion/Promotion of Zerging should be considered vandalism

Clarification

Ross, are you saying that it should be considered bad faith or it should not? The amendment you made at the bottom seems to indicate it would not be considered bad faith, but I don't think that's what you meant. ~ _{23:09, 17 February 2015, The year of our lord (UTC)}

Doesn't make sense to me either:

“	Publicly encouraging Zerging. [...] actively supporting the breaking of the Urban Dead rules will not considered a bad faith edit.	”
—Policy draft

It states first that encouraging zerging should be considered to be vandalism, then thereafter states that vocal support for zerging isn't bad faith. Doesn't make sense to me. Either we declare a pro-zerging stance to be nasty enough to be vandalism, oder we just ignore it and declare it not to be bad faith. -- Spiderzed▋ 23:12, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Oops. scratch that not. --Rosslessness 00:13, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks good now. -- Spiderzed▋ 23:51, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Multi Abuse

What about things like Salt The Land Policy that encourages multi-abuse by running several alts towards a common goal (but not outright zerging by operating within a few blocks)? Should the policy cover it as well? -- Spiderzed▋ 23:12, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence of active encouragement of zerging on that page, or even multi-abuse. Unless you mean the implicit suggestion that ALL zombies should adopt this policy, regardless of the number of characters they use. That same logic could be applied to ANY tactic. But I see what you're getting at. There's often broad interpretation of Kevan's definition of multi-abuse. Most notably, at one time players unsing DEM's DEMON tool were considered multit-abusers. Metagaming itself is sometimes lumped into multi-abuse. I don't think that is what this policy means, but there is some potential for abuse I think however unlikely that may seem. ~ _{23:55, 17 February 2015, The year of our lord (UTC)}

What Vapes said. Its the public, blatant support for multi abuse I'm talking about. --Rosslessness 00:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

It seems that this guy isn't even a zerger, but someone pissed off by someone else's blatant zerging, and impersonating them to bring it to the attention of others. Please don't make a knee jerk policy just to deal with this isolated incident. It can already be dealt with by removal from informative pages, and by the use of the NPOV section of group pages -- boxy 09:56, 18 February 2015 (BST)

I don't believe that for a second. The number of IP's used to edit the wiki, his claims in edit histories that he is the leader of the group, the secondary account created etc. --Rosslessness 10:07, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sceptical, but it is plausible, and makes more sense to me, than the alternative, actually. The number of IP's isn't that high (check mine, for example), and the claims of leadership and secondary accounts (doing the same shit) is totally consistent with it being someone out to discredit a zerging group -- boxy 10:28, 18 February 2015 (BST)

You're clearly several people. Explains the longevity. Parody or not, some people won't get that, and I'd rather the wiki supports the game in this case.--Rosslessness 10:38, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Put the rule up front

So, the real problem is that we've allowed the wiki to be used as a weapon against the game. When we let a zerger use it as a platform for posting POV statements about activities of his that the game explicitly prohibits, we put the wiki and the game at odds with each other. That's in direct contradiction to our core mission of serving as a resource for the game.

Ross nailed this issue in his current version of the wording, but he hid it away in the back half of the sentence. Let's pull it up to the front and phrase it as, "Using the wiki in direct support of activities that break the game's rules". That way, if the rules ever get updated (unlikely as that may be), we're already covered, and it makes it clear that it isn't just "encouraging zerging" that's disallowed. For instance, we grant ownership privileges for group pages so that groups can post POV statements in support of their group. Those privileges should not allow zergers to brag about their exploits or post propaganda. An NPOV statement laying out the simplest of facts will suffice for information purposes, but nothing more. No advertisements to seek new members. No validation or legitimization by listing them alongside other groups. No using the wiki to claim a radio channel. Nothing.

Zerging is a fact of life in Malton, and so it should be reported as such, but it should not be treated a co-equal with other aspects of the game, let alone allowing it to be celebrated in POV terms. No one should be allowed to use the wiki as a weapon against the game. —Aichon— 02:49, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

No, I think it would be too open to interpretation the way you've worded it, which would be bad since we'd be amending a rule that basically says "There's never any reason that could justify good faith". We'd be lumping it in with spam, impersonation and blanking pages, which are basically automatic escalations. It would be better to be explicit in the definition. ~ _{04:58, 18 February 2015, The year of our lord (UTC)}

I agree with Vapor. If this rule were to be put in, you'd want it as foolproof as possible. A ZOMBIE ANT 23:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Deletions as an alternative

I'm a little confused as to what this policy is designed to do. If it's supposed to stop encouraging people to zerg, then I honestly think it's not going to do much.

Spiderzed said:

The game has measures against zerging. The wiki is a different beast, and we have tolerated blatant zergers like TZH, Zoomie or Thad for a long time. I wouldn't cry if Yocum went down, but a pro-zerging stance alone on a group page isn't sufficient for a ban.

This quote from that A/VB case was interesting because it highlights a big issue, that is, as long as the game fails to enforce career zergers, that is more effective in convincing people to zerg than a couple of groups that promote it on the wiki. The question of "what will this policy achieve?" is reason enough for me to think it's not worth putting into policy if it doesn't actually achieve much. Having to interact on a daily basis with Cornholioo, Finis, and others who are publicly known for zerging, as they go unpunished, is a bigger black eye for the fight against zerging than a couple of groups that promote it on the wiki. There's only so much we can do on this wiki when the game's enforcer's can't keep up.

Besides, the recent arbitration case proves to me that freedom of speech is still very much a valued part of UDWiki, as it's always been, so that's also an issue. I understand that this is a separate issue given it's a wiki for UD, though.

I'm not against making a new deletion candidate, or speedy deletion candidate. That way the community gets to decide on whether it fits the bill for zerging propaganda and whether it has to go or not. As for the apparently obvious ones (like the recent VB case, though I didn't get to see the offending page), well, he basically got banned for it anyway, didn't he? Just start ruling zerging propaganda as bad faith and we probably won't actually need this policy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DanceDanceRevolution (talk • contribs) 23:55, 25 February 2015.

Sorry I didn't sign. Damn I'm hopeless! A ZOMBIE ANT 00:55, 26 February 2015 (UTC)