Suggestion talk:20070620 Foreman

Kill - This isn't balanced. A survivor would only need to buy one skill to get this, a zombie would need to be revived and buy two skills. That means that many more survivors will have this skill than zombies. It's already very easy for a survivor to free-run and check barricade levels, and 'cade where needed. This saves them even MORE AP (making this a survivor buff, when it comes to the survivor:zombie barricade-AP-war). The zombies that do eventually get this skill can potentially find they are griefed by survivors who 'cade to loosely on all buildings to make them all look barricaded. I'm not against griefing per se, it's just that it means that the zombies won't have as much as advantage from this skill that you think it will. Also, should a building only barricades to 'loosely' be detectable from far away? I'm not sure it should. armareum 02:55, 22 June 2007 (BST)

1) I never said it was balanced, merely that zombies could also use it. Correct me if i'm wrong but a suggestion does not have to be balanced to be good! Zombies and survivors play very different games so it'd actualy be very hard to design a perfecly balanced skill, so I don't see why I should try. If you want a good Zombie skill added, go ahead and suggest one. 2) Using the old excuse of "it encourages greifing" is getting a little tiring, most of the game mechanics could be argued to encourage greifing. 3) Even a loosely barricaded building would presumably show some signs of barricading, and in fact, if you think about it having survivors unable to tell how strongly a building has been barricaded actualy makes it harder for them, as they are not sure which buildings can be entered.--Seventythree 12:54, 22 June 2007 (BST)

Hard to tell who you are Reing, so I'm assuming all of us. Yeah balanced isn't necessary but when a skill is this broken it is needed. I would have said Spam if I thought it would get any other spam votes but obviously people want to break the game in survivors favor. --karek 10:26, 23 June 2007 (BST)

I'll reply to your points one by one.
1) No, you didn't say it was balanced, and a suggestion isn't required to be balanced either. However zombies and survivors and zombies should be balanced overall, and if you are going to change that balance, you really need to explain what and why you are changing the balance of the game. It isn't balanced because it's a serious buff to one side, and not the other. What I write after my vote is the reason for why I have voted that way! It's not for me to balance your suggestions by suggesting a zombie skill.
2) I didn't just bring out the "it encourages griefing", it was part of my explanation for why this skill would not be a benefit for zombies - and hence not balanced by allowing zombies to have it also. (On the developing suggestion page it was said that you'd have to let the skill cross over, to make it balanced. However I disagree that doing so actually balances the skill. As I said, I'm not against griefing per se (I actually use some griefing tactics myself), I was trying to point out how a certain survivor tactic would easily nerf zombies with the skill. I was trying to think about ALL the angles and applications.
3) My point about being able/not being able to detect a loosely barricaded building from far away was just a realism issue question - but that's a point for debate. To reduce the buff of the skill, you'd probably have to make it able to detect even loosely barricaded buildings. However, you are wrong about it being harder for a survivor if they don't know which building is enter-able - that's the situation we have at the moment. If they can tell which buildings are barricaded, it makes it easier to see/find a building with zero barricades, which makes it slightly easier. armareum 12:55, 23 June 2007 (BST)

Ok. I can see that It's going to be hard to change your mind! So I will respond to your points one by one also. 1) I wanted to make a little bit of a survivor boost, and just that. It will be usefull for zombies too, as they will be able to detect barricaded buildings. Essentialy this skill allows for everybody, regardless of vital status to detect wether a building is barricaded. Also, this is just one suggetion that will (if passed) join a myriad of suggestions, both zombie and survivor. You are voting on this suggestion Only, on it's benifits alone, not in regards to anyone elses suggestions. Personaly, I agree that the game is a little biased at the moment for survivors, however, This was the Idea that i thought up, If i had drempt up a good zombie suggestion, I would have posted that.

Thankyou for considering the Idea from all angles, It is people like you who hone and develop suggestions, as much as I hate criticism that is negative, yours is not. Constructive criticism like yours I can deal with. And yes, you have a point, this sugestion would not help zombies as much as survivors.

In conclusion, I have to disagree with you that the skill would hurt zombies, and I have to add that you are voting on the suggestion on its merit alone, therefore the entire debate on whether I should be suggesting a skill that helps zombies as opposed to survivors is null.

However, you are right that this is not such a powerfull zombie boost as people think it is. Thankyou for your well thought out, constructive and above all polite argument! --Seventythree 23:52, 23 June 2007 (BST)

Absolutely no problem, Seventythree. I try to be polite and constructive as much as possible, and make an effort not to come across as an ass (as easy as that can be on the internet). I'm glad you appreciate that! I've seen you give some really good stuff on the suggestions on this UD wiki (thanks for your contribution to the one I have on the suggestions development page, btw), however I think this one is biased towards survivors. And when it comes to Survivors vs Zeds, it's pretty well acknowledged that survivors have the edge already - I don't want to see the balance go further in the survivors direction.
Beyond that we'll just have agree to disagree. :) armareum 00:21, 24 June 2007 (BST)

Yup. Way I see it, suggestion is taken on it's merit alone, regardless of which side is winning, way you see it we need more zombie suggestions, and this suggestion needs to be more balanced. Who knows, maybe we are both right? and yeah, thanks for your help and everyhting.--Seventythree 00:38, 24 June 2007 (BST)

Sorry, I just read what I wrote and I want to clear something up. I meant to say: "...however I think this one is biased towards survivors. And when it comes to the issue of barricades it's pretty well acknowledged that survivors have the edge already - I don't want to see the balance go further in the survivors direction."
So on that basis, I have evaluated your suggestion on it's merit alone. Which is what I try to do for all suggestions. Sorry if I was misleading at all. armareum 01:33, 24 June 2007 (BST)

Nah, It's cool, and yes, you do have a point. Like you said, agree to disagree and all.--Seventythree 02:39, 24 June 2007 (BST)

I actually just got an idea of how this could be made a little less broken. Doors, see if the door is open or not, not if the building is barricaded. Because both zombies and survivors have the ability to close doors it would make it a far less significant survivor buff, especially when zombie close doors to stump strafers who are just watching doors.--karek 12:07, 27 June 2007 (BST)

My version of this, I even submitted it, but it got roundly canned, so I withdrew it to work on... and never got around to it. Looks like times have changed a little :) -- boxy ^{T L ZS Nuts2U DA} 13:40, 27 June 2007 (BST)