View source for Talk:Caiger Mall

==Ruins of Caiger Mall Section==
A lot of the more recent ruins/repairs of caiger should probably be removed since it happens relatively frequently for some time now in either direction and the count is grossly inaccurate. --[[User:Johnny Bass|Papa Johnny]] 15:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
:Personally, I'd leave them. The Mall does change hands very frequently, but most of the ruins/sieges here indicate singular events that aren't typical of the day-to-day activity you and I are talking about. I was there for the "fifth ruin," and it was being held continually for several months, then went through about a few weeks or a month of decent (by today's standards) siege before falling. Sure, it wasn't as glorious as the earlier sieges and ruins, but it was definitely an event that was built up to and had a climax that impacted the nearby suburbs for the better part of a month or two. And it wasn't typical of the the regular mall activity either, which makes it worthy of note, in my opinion.

:Plus, I've already seen various pages around the wiki linking directly to some of those sections. If we removed them now, it'd be awkward to still have references to the "fifth" ruin if there are only three listed, for instance. {{User:Aichon/Signature}} 08:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

==Old news==
The August 2006 siege was not 'recently', it was forever ago in Urban Dead terms, and Caiger has changed hands I don't know how many times since then. I don't know when it was written that 'survivors have recently taken Caiger back from the unorganized ferals', but it's been there for awhile. It's accurate now (except for the 'unorganized ferals' part, probably) but it looked a little dumb when it was ransacked just a few weeks ago. I'm going to clean up the first paragraph, but I also would propose not putting news at the top, that's what the 'recent news' section is for. [[User:Karaburma|Karaburma]] 21:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

==Possible Alliance?==
I am a member of the [[Medics of Malton]]. We woul like to have an alliance with the Citizens of Caier Mall, and the surrounding areas. We are a nomadic healing group, and would like to be on par with all of the Major groups. Send us a message if you accept. {{User:Doc Crook/Sig}} 13:39, 26 September 2007 (BST)

==Tidy Up==
So, since the page has been pretty much untouched since the mall fell again in February I've gave both the main page and this page a clean. {{User:Pillsy/Sig}} 09:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyone intersested in talking the mall back get to Latrobe to the right of the mall and help barricade and dump bodies in the mall. We have a contingent there already.

:I agree with the recent take back of Ciager by human hands this needs some major updating.  Barricading policy, revive points, and pro-survivor flavor text. I rather have someone like CMS or a local group do it since I am just a transient helping retake the mall from the zeds.  --[[User:Kinnison|Kinnison]] 16:13, 5 May 2007 (BST)

Moved someone's entry on the timeline
''So, is Red Rum a Death Cultist group, now? I need to know for my friendly contacts list. -- [[User:Mordac the Refuser|Mordac the Refuser]] 22:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)''
to Red Rum's page to keep things 'on topic'. --<sup>[[RR]]</sup>[[User:Ashley Valentine|Ashley Valentine]] 22:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Corrected the 'Second Ruin of Caiger Mall'.

On November 30/December 1-3 2007, several zombie groups, as wells as a couple of Pker groups devastated all four corners of Caiger Mall (which are now in ruin!) as well as most of [[Chudleyton]] and [[Darvall Heights]]. We were there.--[[User:Death Valley Driver|Death Valley Driver]] 23:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Officially, the Eastonwood Ferals were the only zombie group there, and 'the couple of PKer groups' were the infamous Red Rum and Pathetic Bill. --<sup>[[RR]]</sup>[[User:Ashley Valentine|Ashley Valentine]] 17:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible for someone to link the Second Ruin of caiger mall to the following page: {{main|Red_Rum/Siege_of_Jerusalem}}, remember to remove the Red_Rum from the beginning. I'd do it myself, but I dont know how to remove red rum >.< --<sup>[[RR]]</sup>[[User:Ashley Valentine|Ashley Valentine]] 01:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

== Archives ==

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== On the subject of LUE ==

Chill out. Seriously. [[Extinction]] and the [[CRF]] are right around the corner, [[Red Rum]] massacred 40 people in a night, and apparently all you can do is keep track of [[LUE]], although often not even that. LUE may very well attack Caiger at some point, but if the survivors in Caiger keep looking out for them at the expense of everyone else, there may not be a mall left for LUE to sack.--[[User:Insomniac By Choice|Insomniac By Choice]] 21:11, 8 August 2007 (BST)
:Seriously, come on. [[LUE]] is heading West apparently, but they haven't even crossed the boundry into West Malton, there are something like 4 malls between you, at least two of them directly between [[LUE]] and [[Caiger Mall|Caiger]]. Be paranoid when they are a suburb away, not 5, try to keep the news about what is happening at Caiger and the discussion about [[LUE]] to the talk page.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 22:24, 8 August 2007 (BST)

== Concerning LUE... ==

It's scary...but LUE isn't just "heading west" anymore.

It's heartening to see Caiger Mall once again joining under one banner. This brings back memories of the good ol' days, guys. Don't stop. Especially now...you can't afford any more internal bickering. Rumors have been flying about [[LUE]], which could either be a quick splash or potentially the largest threat to Caiger Mall since [[Shacknews]], and possibly even greater. Now LUE might not be close, but ever since [[Santlerville]] they've been carving a path ''directly east''. This leads them ''straight'' to Caiger. They're on a warpath, burning a straight path towards Caiger, stopping only to eat and sleep. At this rate you have a couple weeks at most.

I'm calling out to you brave souls in Caiger Mall. You stand as a beacon of hope for survivors across Malton. Abandon your grudges and get yourself into order. Because gentlemen, either we'll go down in history as the survivors of the greatest siege yet -- or the victims of the most disappointing anticlimax in the history of Malton. It's our own choice to make. --[[User:MSTK|MSTK]] 02:47, 9 August 2007 (BST)
:{{Directions}}
:No one cares about Caiger but the people already there, disappointment is expected because the mall has always been disappointing. Also stop assuming LUE is coming to Caiger, they dance to their own tune and it isn't the one that has a warpath straight towards Caiger.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 21:18, 9 August 2007 (BST)
::Sorry to say this, but Caiger ''isn't'' the center of the survivor universe. Caiger got ownt in the 3rd seige, effectively ending the whole "bastion of humanity" idea. Find a new place to sheep it out at.--{{User:Suicidalangel/Sig}} 21:30, 9 August 2007 (BST)
:::Mark my words -- LUE ''is'' coming to Caiger.  There isn't much doubt, look at the signs...ever since Santlerville they've been heading straight East.  I'm willing to put money on it.  It's just foolish to deny.  And, at this rate, it seems, it '''will''' be an anticlimax. --[[User:MSTK|MSTK]] 21:54, 9 August 2007 (BST)
::::You see the image above, click it. It's been a day, '''one single day''' since LUE left Santlerville, in that one day they moved straight to Stickling. That is not heading straight East, it's heading to the mall with all the survivors that happens to be close enough to reach in a day, which, by the way, is '''''west''''' of where they were. Caiger is further to the '''''west'''''. Last time LUE were "on the warpath to Caiger" they made it as far as no where close and instead took the SSZ for a second time. Stickling is as close to Caiger as Nichols mall, which is to say probably more than a day away. You'll know when LUE are coming to Caiger, they will let you know.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 22:55, 9 August 2007 (BST)
::::Well I feel pretty stupid now for messing up my directions. (east should be west in my pervious posts >_> )In any case, all LUE is doing now is island hopping from survivor gathering to survivor gathering.  But at this rate, once they abandon Stickling (in a couple of days, I'd give it), they'll likely be heading in the same direction...straight west. I'll back off for now, but if LUE heads into the Brooke Hills area next, then you'll know what's coming. --[[User:MSTK|MSTK]] 23:25, 9 August 2007 (BST)
:::::Funny thing is, he claimed to be a LUEser when he first made his user page. What happened there?--{{User:Suicidalangel/Sig}} 23:21, 9 August 2007 (BST)
:::::That is a good question SA, let's sweep it under the rug and ignore it. Actually MSTK, heading directly west would take them to Bale, and then Calvert is closer than Caiger. Odds are they will probably hit both of those before Caiger, which is vaugely in south west of where LUE is. Probably be good if they went straight west and ran into the wall.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 02:07, 10 August 2007 (BST)
::::::Of course, they're going to stop on the way for fuel.  They only pause at suburbs to restock and magically pump up their average levels up a notch or two.  That's just...''moving'', for them.  I've seen it before.  They move from major target to major target...and ransack places along the way just for brainz, as a pit stop of sorts.  These "stops" are hardly destinations, but resting spots.  I guess the real trick is to figure out where LUE is island hopping ''towards''.  Just don't let a temporary resting point fool you into thinking that that was their ultimate destination. --[[User:MSTK|MSTK]] 02:16, 10 August 2007 (BST)
:From what I've read, LUE is in Wykewood.  Bale is firmly in their hands.  Now what stands between them and us now?  I don't mean to be fear-mongering here.  But every passing day seems to bring them closer to Caiger.  --[[User:MSTK|MSTK]] 09:05, 15 August 2007 (BST)
::Fear monger all you want on the talk pages, it's just not really news worthy until they are in the suburb. If you really are worried try going to groups you have relations with and talking with them. Don't, however, do what someone else did and spam the same message on 20+ groups talk pages as that is considered vandalism.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 09:14, 15 August 2007 (BST)
Aaaaaand now it's time to fear monger.--[[User:Insomniac By Choice|Insomniac By Choice]] 03:09, 16 August 2007 (BST)
:Don't say I didn't tell you so.  It was just too obvious to deny.  They headed straight here after Santlerville. --[[User:MSTK|MSTK]] 09:05, 16 August 2007 (BST)
::No, they headed straight to Stickling after Santlerville.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 11:11, 16 August 2007 (BST)
:::They stayed in Stickling for two days at most.  It was only a rest stop to gain a couple of levels.  They left it behind quickly.  But like Typhlosion says...there's not much use arguing now. --[[User:MSTK|MSTK]] 18:38, 16 August 2007 (BST)
We're here now, no use arguing about it. [[User:TyphlosionIsMe|TyphlosionIsMe]] 12:41, 16 August 2007 (BST)<br>
HAI GUISE, did somebody order some fear-mongering?<br>

Seriously, though ... what is ''with'' the volume of whiny, crying, bitching, moaning, wailing, teeth-gnashing blubbering sand-packed vaginas you guys have residing in Caiger?  I've been called an asshole, a dick, a retard, and a half-dozen other unsavory things in the past couple hours.  I wanted to come to Caiger because I wanted to see a great, epic battle that everybody could enjoy and ruminate on.  You know, something everyone could be proud of.<br>

Now, I'm not going to comment on the quality of the defense - I think the facts speak volumes by themselves - but Caiger wails like a bunch of 14-year-old Thai hookers being broken in for the first time.  Jesus H. Christ, what is *wrong* with Caiger Mall?<br>
:What's wrong with Caiger Mall?  It's filled with survivors who so desperately want to relive the glory of the first siege that they care for nothing else and haven't realized that the mall has long since lost its' symbolic status. --[[User:Adrian Steiner]] 10:23, 16 August 2007

Disappointing.  So very disappointing.  I'm sorry, I don't mean to be down on you guys, but damn, if Caiger could fight half as well as it could talk shit, we'd all be back outside by now. --[[User:Vito Mortis|Vito Mortis]] 04:14, 17 August 2007

Your all a bunch of schizos, thats whats wrong. --{{User:A Helpful Little Gnome/Sig}} 04:49, 17 August 2007 (BST)

This is no longer Caiger Mall it's now Barhah Bazaar. --[[User:SomaJaust|SomaJaust]] 05:15, 17 August 2007 (BST)

The way I see it, the mall had been calling for help. This whole mess could have been averted if people had come to its aid back when the Latrobe Building had been under attack. The mall lost its symbolic status because we ''allowed'' it to. If we could put up a well-done defense there instead of insulting them, then we could have our glorious symbol back and go back to being able to say that we ''can'' in fact win.
--[[User:dualshock71|dualshock71]] 04:31, 17 August 2007 (EST)
:Hindsight is always 20/20. --[[User:SomaJaust|SomaJaust]] 10:29, 17 August 2007 (BST)

:It lost it's symbolism back when it came under control of a bunch of sheepy fools that like to run around with katanas. Not because we allowed it, no, it was taken by the very same people that defend it today. You want people to come and help more often? Show it. Drop the Uzis, the MP5s, the black leather coats, forget them. They're not needed now, and they'll never be needed.
:Don't harp about LUE coming a month in advance. I stopped there with an alt back around July 17th, and in the 5 hours I was there, I heard 7 times "LUE is coming, we need reinforcements!". Not to mention how many times I heard it during the thrashing of all the other malls. After hearing that for a month, you really think anyone is going to care when  they ''do'' show up?
:And in my opinion, who cares if it falls? There is ''19 more'' of them. The only reason it is special is because it lasted two siege. Both times Survivors out numbered zombies. Not only that, but the first siege zombies had to deal with a 70:30 split in  population, upped needle rates, and the first version of headshot. In the second, the survivors out numbered the sieging zombies by over a thousand. It's pretty hard to win against a force that has a large advantage in the ap:damage ratio, that also happens to outnumber you 3:1. At least things have evened out a little bit for both sides since those times.
:In short, forget it. Caiger is nothing but a failing, decrepit legend. Hopefully this sacking is going to teach you guys something.--{{User:Suicidalangel/Sig}} 10:30, 17 August 2007 (BST)
::::In response to the unsigned thing above SAs addition. There are ''no'' malls that are(strategically and statistically) easier to defend than Caiger, the failure is completely on the players, not the location.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 12:40, 17 August 2007 (BST)
:::::Actually, that entire block of text is mine. And I forgot to remove that part.''' :D'''. I wrote it as soon as I woke up, so I was a bit groggy. I'm changing it now. Sorry for the confusion.--{{User:Suicidalangel/Sig}} 12:54, 17 August 2007 (BST)

:::::'''My view'''. Caiger was doomed from the start. I went up from Ackland several WEEKS ago and surveyed the defenses, then projected on the AMS forums that Caiger would collapse within hours of the beginning of the attack. I had seen the work of LUE at Ackland and again at Hildebrand. Caiger had fallen far from the glory days when a thousand survivors stood ready behind the barricades to defend...what remained were several hundred people who did not appear to understand the sheer horror of what was descending on them. I went up with the Ackland Strike Team nevertheless, even though I knew in my heart that defeat was a certainty. If you want my opinion, I think the game is broken. Survivors are now essentially defenseless against the horde. With the combat-revive nerfed by the AP10 cost, the large building rules change, the ransack and the ruin, Kevan has fundamentally altered the dynamics of this game. The horde can attack whenever and wherever it pleases, and there is no way to survive it or repel it...the only hope is in anticipating where the horde will strike next and fleeing before it arrives. Even this is not necessarily successful...I know for a fact that LUE caught several malls completely off-guard, so swift was their advance. I think either new tools have to be devised or old rules revisited...but survivors need to have some type of fighting chance to survive or repel an attack. I do not know what that is, yet. But right now, zombies rule Malton regardless of the 55-45 divide.  --{{User:Tarumigan}} 12:54, 18 August 2007 (BST)

:::::'''Response to My view'''. You say UD is broken, well I for me it depends on whether you look at it from an in-game or meta-game perspective. In-game, survivors rule and always have. Life for a non meta-gaming zombie is a very isolated almost non-interactive experience. No social network apart from garbled non-speech, even VS cades are a problem cos they waste 50AP just breaking in. What drives the UD zombie game is the NECESSITY of meta-gaming coordination to get any enjoyment from UD at all. And what's happened at Caiger Mall is not just an assault by the coordinated strike horde LUE, but LUE as the spearhead along with RRF and Extinction and Eastonwood Ferals and CRF and Minions and whoever else is around, all working together (where's Feral Undead?). The zombie meta-game has continued to evolve and gone up another level to meta-group coordination while the survivors at Caiger were still stuck with their in-game Mall chat rooms and seemingly little knowledge of or motivation for serious meta-game coordination. It's a systemic player culture problem and survivors are now so far behind in developing the meta-gaming skills needed to combat the zombie menace that in a meta-game sense I perhaps would agree that yes, the game is breaking unless they lift their meta-game like they did at [[The_Battle_of_Santlerville|Santlerville]] against the RRF. Maybe once LUE retires and the zombie meta-group coordination breaks down we'll return to UD business as usual ... otherwise Malton's living may very well be facing a Zombie Apocalypse. --[[User:Zeug|Zeug]] 10:10, 18 August 2007 (BST)

:::::'''Response to the Response to My view''' It's true that zombies are leading in the metagame. I tend to agree with Vito Mortis...zombies have developed a superior metagame because they HAD to. They've never had the type of communications systems that the survivors have had. Communication or no, however, this game is geared in such a way as to favor attackers. The attacker chooses when and where to bring the horde online...survivors can't anticipate which of the 24 hours in every day the zombies will choose to strike on, and we can't stick around constantly waiting for the attack. If a force like LUE, Extinction, or RRF comes knocking on the door, they can and will overwhelm any defenses in the safehouse...when LUE kicked in the door at Caiger, they slaughtered everyone in the NW Quadrant in a matter of minutes, then began to fan out to the others. ''In a few minutes'', Caiger lost approximately 25% (or more) of its' entire population and suffered the fatal ransack. Many of the fatalities were first-responders who were trying to re-establish the barricades. I myself was almost killed by LUE zombies as I attempted to rebuild those barricades. Once the barricades come down, zombie faces survivor in a direct matchup...and despite the survivor's access to firearms, the zombie easily wins the AP battle. It's best to think of Malton as two worlds...the Outer World, out on the streets. The zombies have always ruled out here, since day one. Then there's the Inner World, the interiors of buildings and the networks of free-running lanes...survivors have dominated here traditionally. The barricade was the one thing dividing the two. Without an effective barricade, the Inner World '''becomes''' the Outer World. The abilities that Kevan has gifted to the zombies combined with their increasingly effective metagaming have nullified the barricade. When fifty or a hundred zombies all pound on the barricade all at once, it fails immediately, and after that the survivors get to spend a day or so looking for a revive. I bet you a lot of the Caiger defenders are STILL looking for revives because in addition to purging Caiger Mall, the horde also took out every nearby Necrotech facility during the course of 24-48 hours, also without difficulty. As a dedicated survivor, I'd like some way to fortify -myself- inside of buildings. I'd like to be able to scrounge for materials or be forced to use some skill-related ability that makes me harder to dig out of a building. I just don't know what that is yet.  --{{User:Tarumigan}} 12:54, 18 August 2007 (BST)

:::::'''Another Thought''' It seems to me that there is another issue that separates the survivors from the zombies - griefers. In a sense the fall of Ciager owes as much to 'survivors' acting on behalf of the zombies as it does to the actions of the zombies themselves.  As it stands there are multiple ways to grief defenders and no credible way of doing so to zombie hordes. I would suggest that one way to address the balance of the game would be to make griefing zombies an easier thing to do.  For example, remove the restriction on groaning such that you can do it at any time.  This would allow higher level zombies (at least those who aren't happy about the current situation) the ability to issue 'decoy' groans that would siphon of a few zombie APs at a time as nearby zeds wander over to empty areas.  

:::::Consider also that there are many 'survivors' who fight for zombie-dom more than their fellow survivors and it seems that UD shouldn't treat the zombie/survivor divide as an absolute any more.  Perhaps its time to lift the anonymity that zombies hold?  This would make it as easy to engage in inter-zombie warfare in the future as inter-survivor warfare is today.  That alone would go far in limiting the overwhelming superiority that zombies currently hold. [[User:JonMonster|JonMonster]] 08:38, 19 August 2007 (BST)


:::::'''A Prediction''' In two months, LUE will get tired of playing zombies, and the horde will switch to playing humans, probably with new characters.  With the amount of coordination they have, they'll easily clear out Ridleybank, and keep clearing it out twice a week until they get tired of it or the zombies get tired of trying to hold it.  If they have any trouble at all doing this, then I'll concede the game is unbalanced.  (Note I said 'keep clearing it out', not 'keep it clear'.  I agree defense is impossible in UD.) [[User:Smiley|Smiley]] 10:09, 19 August 2007 (BST)

== real quick ==

can anyone change the "safe" status to "under attack"?

== The August 2007 attack on Caiger ==

Just glancing at the entry for Aug 16 it's easy to see this is going to get messy and quick. Any guidelines for removing spam updates, and what's the kosher way to reformat/edit someone else's comments to be grammatically proper?--[[User:Insomniac By Choice|Insomniac By Choice]] 22:57, 16 August 2007 (BST)
:In situations like this, I'd suggest "Just the facts, ma'am" be the guide.--[[User:Jorm|Jorm]] 23:01, 16 August 2007 (BST)
::Having read this, I'm unsure where to even begin cleaning up this crap.--[[User:Jorm|Jorm]] 23:20, 16 August 2007 (BST)

== Neutrality ==

I've removed the section titled "The First Ruin of Caiger". It's called neutrality, people.--[[User:EvilCartman|EvilCartman]] 05:25, 18 August 2007 (BST)
:Neutrality on Caiger? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! --[[User:Saromu|Sonny Corleone]] <sup>[[ The Ridleybank Resistance Front|RRF]] [[Council of Leaders|CoL]] [[DORIS]] [[Caiger Resistance Front|CRF]] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91a8pHj7V9k pr0n]</sup> 05:28, 18 August 2007 (BST)
::...but what about the Sieges of Caiger? Those are allowed, but because we're LUE we're not recognized? --[[User:TheNeoianOne|TheNeoianOne]] 05:47, 18 August 2007 (BST)
:::I think a certain mall is pissed because it was taken down within a day...''' :P'''.--{{User:Suicidalangel/Sig}} 05:51, 18 August 2007 (BST)

::There's nothing biased about calling it "The First Ruin of Caiger."  It is, in fact, the first ruining of Caiger.  You, cartman, are the one guilty of not being neutral - and while I do not intend to get into some editing pissing contest, I am going to make an issue of this. --[[User:McTrout|McTrout]] 05:55, 18 August 2007 (BST)

::I agree with McTrout....the neutrality police have repeatedly gone too far. While I do not mean to suggest that impartiality is unimportant, I feel that we need to bear in mind what this wiki is for and who reads it. --[[User:Tarumigan|Tarumigan]] 12:55, 18 August 2007 (BST)

::Ya, that isn't right. There was really nothing bias about that part of the article. It literally was the first ruin (since it was just added to game) of the Caiger Mall. Seriously sounds like after all the smack you talked, and the quick ownage, you just don't want to admit it. --[[User:Nickofearth|Nickofearth]] 06:06, 18 August 2007 (BST)

:::Fixed everything. --[[User:Saromu|Sonny Corleone]] <sup>[[ The Ridleybank Resistance Front|RRF]] [[Council of Leaders|CoL]] [[DORIS]] [[Caiger Resistance Front|CRF]] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91a8pHj7V9k pr0n]</sup> 06:11, 18 August 2007 (BST)

::::Thanks Sonny.  And before you get any ideas, EvilCartman, I've asked Hagnat to give us a ruling.  There is '''going''' to be a mention of the first ruining of Caiger Mall by [[LUE]] on the wiki.  You'd better get used to the idea.--[[User:McTrout|McTrout]] 06:20, 18 August 2007 (BST)
:::::Woot! Go Sonny! Doing what everyone else is too lazy to!''' :)'''.--{{User:Suicidalangel/Sig}} 06:24, 18 August 2007 (BST)
::::::Actually, I do find myself agreeing with Cartman. Not his reasoning, but the deletion of the article. Was this really an event? The zombies showed up and the mall fell, same thing that's happened what, two dozen other times this summer? Unless something changes over the next few days, what was significant about this other than the fact that it happened to a once great mall and involved a lot of inter-group cooperation? That's a bigger story to me than what happened to Caiger.--[[User:Insomniac By Choice|Insomniac By Choice]] 07:13, 18 August 2007 (BST)
::::::: I consider the term "The Fourth Siege of Caiger" will be more appropiate. The new "ruin" action did not bring any significant changes to this battle when compared with the previous ones. --[[User:MP7|MP7]] 08:48, 18 August 2007 (BST)
Uh huh, but a "siege" suggests something lasting longer than a day. Which this didn't. "The Caiger Mauling" might be more appropriate. But like I said, this wasn't significant or special except that literally, Caiger was ruined for the first time. It was firmly in survivor hands and "folded like a wet newspaper". What is there to write about beyond that (and zombies working together)? Really, there's not enough for an article. There's enough for a stub, but not enough for an article.--[[User:Insomniac By Choice|Insomniac By Choice]] 08:54, 18 August 2007 (BST)
:: I completely get your point, Insomniac, but if there is a "First Ruin of Caiger", people will then probably come up with names like "fall", "assault", "attack", and whatever new names, which are also appropiate at some point. LUE and other zombie groups probably planned to lay a relatively long attack (siege) on the mall but the mall just fell so easily. I think there should be an article recording the attack and the defense (close to none) of the mall and the word "ruin" will only attract attention to the fall of the mall without expressing significant meaning. --[[User:MP7|MP7]] 18:51, 18 August 2007 (BST)
::: Your keyword being 'probably'. However, the facts would tell you that this "siege" barely lasted over twelve hours -- other than the caders, the zeds didn't meet any significant resistance from the mall dwellers. When LUE started its frontal assault to the NW corner and felled it in 40 minutes, there was no longer effort made to take back the ground lost, or even do evacuation plans (only AMS did, and they barely escaped with their lives).
::: And should we remind you that history is often molded from the point of view of the victors? Face it: you lost, and your dream of it becoming anything near to what you can reasonably call a "siege" didn't come to fruition. --[[User:Aeon17x|Aeon17x]] 20:51, 18 August 2007 (BST)
First of all, the title is right, and an entry in the caigar mall main page should be kept. It was the first time caigar was ruined, but only the future will tell if it will ever be ruined again. Perhaps harmans will once again organize themselves to defend their ''bastion of humanity'', or whatever they used to kill it in the good ole days. Second, the [[The First Ruin of Caiger|article]] about this fact is really pooor. It has a single image filling the entire page, and a few notes on who did what and when. Or that article is expanded (neutrally expanded) and put in higher standards of quality, or i'll be the one asking for it to be deleted, leaving only a few notes in the [[Caiger Mall]] page.. Third, behave civily and respect your enemies. This is a game, and game should be fun and create friendships, not the opposite. --{{User:Hagnat/sig}} 21:49, 18 August 2007 (BST)
:Agreed on the article - it needs work.  I'll see about IBC, myself, and the original author getting together and making something that is both more informative and agreeable to all parties.--[[User:McTrout|McTrout]] 04:29, 19 August 2007 (BST)
: Yes, this article definitely needs some serious work and I am willing to contribute (I have some data). Also, I would like to emphasize that I try my best to be neutral and do not write in this wiki in the favour of victors/losers/humans/zombies. It is not my "dream" of making this as a "siege". Please show respect to other people. --[[User:MP7|MP7]] 07:12, 19 August 2007 (BST)
::If you call it "the fourth siege" you run into the problem that the mall has already changed hands several times since the third siege. Zombies held it after Shacknews for two months, then the survivors took it back and held it until February and zombies had it again, then survivors have held it for the past three and a half months until a couple days ago. I think the last time zombies sacked Caiger, it took three days to completely ransack it. Like I've said elsewhere, the "first ruin" is a literal description of what sets this apart from previous ones, other than the speed. [[Bale Mall]] was the first mall in the game ruined, and this is the first time Caiger was ruined. We're stretching to find something worth talking about here. The hardest fighting I personally experienced was against [[AMS]] guys who defended against an OEM? break-in in the afternoon and actively barricaded against LUE assault at night. Everything else was just overwhelmed. Caiger was just another mall and it lost. There's nothing to analyze or signify beyond that except that the myth of invincibility or specialness should have been put to rest at last.--[[User:Insomniac By Choice|Insomniac By Choice]] 07:51, 19 August 2007 (BST)
:Smack? I haven't said one single word about the zombies beating us. I haven't even been around that mall. It is almost embarassing to be a Caiger Mall Survivor, because everyone just jumps on the bandwagon when we win, and everyone just runs away when we lose, screaming "Caiger sucks, yay Mall Tour!" or whatever other Zombie group is attacking the mall. I like the mall, just not some the people within it. As for it being taken down in a day? I'm sad that you zombies will be in it, as it's a great mall, but at the same time I'm glad, hoping that the true Caigerites will return, the ones that have worn "Caiger Mall Survivors" as their group since it was founded, the ones that were there for the original sieges, with the RRF, and Mall Tour '06. --[[User:EvilCartman|EvilCartman]] 03:32, 21 August 2007 (BST)

===August 24th===
Why is Caiger so important anyyway? I mean, stratigiecly. <small>—The preceding [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:BoboTalkClown|BoboTalkClown]] ([[User talk:BoboTalkClown|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/BoboTalkClown|contribs]]) at an <span class="stealthexternallink">[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=history}} unknown time]</span>.</small>

It's the main supply base for NW Malton, all the suburbs around it have supply lines through to the mall. So when Caiger becomes Barhah Mall all the lights across NW Malton go out. For [[Extinction]] it's the key to holding our top NW Extinction Zone through to [[Calvert Mall]] as well as the entire DMZ. And now the entire NW Quadrant of Malton is red and a natural breeding ground for feral zombies every zed group in the region benefits. --[[User:Zeug|Zeug]] 11:55, 27 August 2007 (BST)

The only reason why Caiger is important is the buildings around it, specifically the mass of NTs.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 11:59, 28 August 2007 (BST)

== Related Articles ==

There are several articles related to Caiger mall. Some such articles are:
* [[The Survivors are Retaking Caiger Mall]]
* [[Why Caiger Fell]]
* [[What We Can Do About It!]]
* [[Ross Report]]

--{{User:Yonnua Koponen/signature‎}} 19:42, 8 October 2009 (BST)

== Recent News ==

The most recent update perhaps less so, but what's POV about Dragon's first post? The Globetrotters rebuilt and are currently taking the lead on defending the Mall, and the area to the South and West is largely dangerous. Straightfoward