Talk:Caiger Mall

Ruins of Caiger Mall Section

A lot of the more recent ruins/repairs of caiger should probably be removed since it happens relatively frequently for some time now in either direction and the count is grossly inaccurate. --Papa Johnny 15:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'd leave them. The Mall does change hands very frequently, but most of the ruins/sieges here indicate singular events that aren't typical of the day-to-day activity you and I are talking about. I was there for the "fifth ruin," and it was being held continually for several months, then went through about a few weeks or a month of decent (by today's standards) siege before falling. Sure, it wasn't as glorious as the earlier sieges and ruins, but it was definitely an event that was built up to and had a climax that impacted the nearby suburbs for the better part of a month or two. And it wasn't typical of the the regular mall activity either, which makes it worthy of note, in my opinion.

Plus, I've already seen various pages around the wiki linking directly to some of those sections. If we removed them now, it'd be awkward to still have references to the "fifth" ruin if there are only three listed, for instance. —Aichon— 08:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Old news

The August 2006 siege was not 'recently', it was forever ago in Urban Dead terms, and Caiger has changed hands I don't know how many times since then. I don't know when it was written that 'survivors have recently taken Caiger back from the unorganized ferals', but it's been there for awhile. It's accurate now (except for the 'unorganized ferals' part, probably) but it looked a little dumb when it was ransacked just a few weeks ago. I'm going to clean up the first paragraph, but I also would propose not putting news at the top, that's what the 'recent news' section is for. Karaburma 21:41, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Possible Alliance?

I am a member of the Medics of Malton. We woul like to have an alliance with the Citizens of Caier Mall, and the surrounding areas. We are a nomadic healing group, and would like to be on par with all of the Major groups. Send us a message if you accept. doc crook 13:39, 26 September 2007 (BST)

Tidy Up

So, since the page has been pretty much untouched since the mall fell again in February I've gave both the main page and this page a clean. Pillsy ^FT 09:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyone intersested in talking the mall back get to Latrobe to the right of the mall and help barricade and dump bodies in the mall. We have a contingent there already.

I agree with the recent take back of Ciager by human hands this needs some major updating. Barricading policy, revive points, and pro-survivor flavor text. I rather have someone like CMS or a local group do it since I am just a transient helping retake the mall from the zeds. --Kinnison 16:13, 5 May 2007 (BST)

Moved someone's entry on the timeline So, is Red Rum a Death Cultist group, now? I need to know for my friendly contacts list. -- Mordac the Refuser 22:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC) to Red Rum's page to keep things 'on topic'. --^RRAshley Valentine 22:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Corrected the 'Second Ruin of Caiger Mall'.

On November 30/December 1-3 2007, several zombie groups, as wells as a couple of Pker groups devastated all four corners of Caiger Mall (which are now in ruin!) as well as most of Chudleyton and Darvall Heights. We were there.--Death Valley Driver 23:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Officially, the Eastonwood Ferals were the only zombie group there, and 'the couple of PKer groups' were the infamous Red Rum and Pathetic Bill. --^RRAshley Valentine 17:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible for someone to link the Second Ruin of caiger mall to the following page:

Main article: Red_Rum/Siege_of_Jerusalem

, remember to remove the Red_Rum from the beginning. I'd do it myself, but I dont know how to remove red rum >.< --^RRAshley Valentine 01:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

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On the subject of LUE

Chill out. Seriously. Extinction and the CRF are right around the corner, Red Rum massacred 40 people in a night, and apparently all you can do is keep track of LUE, although often not even that. LUE may very well attack Caiger at some point, but if the survivors in Caiger keep looking out for them at the expense of everyone else, there may not be a mall left for LUE to sack.--Insomniac By Choice 21:11, 8 August 2007 (BST)

Seriously, come on. LUE is heading West apparently, but they haven't even crossed the boundry into West Malton, there are something like 4 malls between you, at least two of them directly between LUE and Caiger. Be paranoid when they are a suburb away, not 5, try to keep the news about what is happening at Caiger and the discussion about LUE to the talk page.--Karek^maps?! 22:24, 8 August 2007 (BST)

Concerning LUE...

It's scary...but LUE isn't just "heading west" anymore.

It's heartening to see Caiger Mall once again joining under one banner. This brings back memories of the good ol' days, guys. Don't stop. Especially now...you can't afford any more internal bickering. Rumors have been flying about LUE, which could either be a quick splash or potentially the largest threat to Caiger Mall since Shacknews, and possibly even greater. Now LUE might not be close, but ever since Santlerville they've been carving a path directly east. This leads them straight to Caiger. They're on a warpath, burning a straight path towards Caiger, stopping only to eat and sleep. At this rate you have a couple weeks at most.

I'm calling out to you brave souls in Caiger Mall. You stand as a beacon of hope for survivors across Malton. Abandon your grudges and get yourself into order. Because gentlemen, either we'll go down in history as the survivors of the greatest siege yet -- or the victims of the most disappointing anticlimax in the history of Malton. It's our own choice to make. --MSTK 02:47, 9 August 2007 (BST)

	Pointing you in the right direction
	Because navigation is easier when you know which way is north.

No one cares about Caiger but the people already there, disappointment is expected because the mall has always been disappointing. Also stop assuming LUE is coming to Caiger, they dance to their own tune and it isn't the one that has a warpath straight towards Caiger.--Karek^maps?! 21:18, 9 August 2007 (BST)

Sorry to say this, but Caiger isn't the center of the survivor universe. Caiger got ownt in the 3rd seige, effectively ending the whole "bastion of humanity" idea. Find a new place to sheep it out at.-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 21:30, 9 August 2007 (BST)

Mark my words -- LUE is coming to Caiger. There isn't much doubt, look at the signs...ever since Santlerville they've been heading straight East. I'm willing to put money on it. It's just foolish to deny. And, at this rate, it seems, it will be an anticlimax. --MSTK 21:54, 9 August 2007 (BST)

You see the image above, click it. It's been a day, one single day since LUE left Santlerville, in that one day they moved straight to Stickling. That is not heading straight East, it's heading to the mall with all the survivors that happens to be close enough to reach in a day, which, by the way, is west of where they were. Caiger is further to the west. Last time LUE were "on the warpath to Caiger" they made it as far as no where close and instead took the SSZ for a second time. Stickling is as close to Caiger as Nichols mall, which is to say probably more than a day away. You'll know when LUE are coming to Caiger, they will let you know.--Karek^maps?! 22:55, 9 August 2007 (BST)

Well I feel pretty stupid now for messing up my directions. (east should be west in my pervious posts >_> )In any case, all LUE is doing now is island hopping from survivor gathering to survivor gathering. But at this rate, once they abandon Stickling (in a couple of days, I'd give it), they'll likely be heading in the same direction...straight west. I'll back off for now, but if LUE heads into the Brooke Hills area next, then you'll know what's coming. --MSTK 23:25, 9 August 2007 (BST)

Funny thing is, he claimed to be a LUEser when he first made his user page. What happened there?-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 23:21, 9 August 2007 (BST)

That is a good question SA, let's sweep it under the rug and ignore it. Actually MSTK, heading directly west would take them to Bale, and then Calvert is closer than Caiger. Odds are they will probably hit both of those before Caiger, which is vaugely in south west of where LUE is. Probably be good if they went straight west and ran into the wall.--Karek^maps?! 02:07, 10 August 2007 (BST)

Of course, they're going to stop on the way for fuel. They only pause at suburbs to restock and magically pump up their average levels up a notch or two. That's just...moving, for them. I've seen it before. They move from major target to major target...and ransack places along the way just for brainz, as a pit stop of sorts. These "stops" are hardly destinations, but resting spots. I guess the real trick is to figure out where LUE is island hopping towards. Just don't let a temporary resting point fool you into thinking that that was their ultimate destination. --MSTK 02:16, 10 August 2007 (BST)

From what I've read, LUE is in Wykewood. Bale is firmly in their hands. Now what stands between them and us now? I don't mean to be fear-mongering here. But every passing day seems to bring them closer to Caiger. --MSTK 09:05, 15 August 2007 (BST)

Fear monger all you want on the talk pages, it's just not really news worthy until they are in the suburb. If you really are worried try going to groups you have relations with and talking with them. Don't, however, do what someone else did and spam the same message on 20+ groups talk pages as that is considered vandalism.--Karek^maps?! 09:14, 15 August 2007 (BST)

Aaaaaand now it's time to fear monger.--Insomniac By Choice 03:09, 16 August 2007 (BST)

Don't say I didn't tell you so. It was just too obvious to deny. They headed straight here after Santlerville. --MSTK 09:05, 16 August 2007 (BST)

No, they headed straight to Stickling after Santlerville.--Karek^maps?! 11:11, 16 August 2007 (BST)

They stayed in Stickling for two days at most. It was only a rest stop to gain a couple of levels. They left it behind quickly. But like Typhlosion says...there's not much use arguing now. --MSTK 18:38, 16 August 2007 (BST)

We're here now, no use arguing about it. TyphlosionIsMe 12:41, 16 August 2007 (BST)
HAI GUISE, did somebody order some fear-mongering?

Seriously, though ... what is with the volume of whiny, crying, bitching, moaning, wailing, teeth-gnashing blubbering sand-packed vaginas you guys have residing in Caiger? I've been called an asshole, a dick, a retard, and a half-dozen other unsavory things in the past couple hours. I wanted to come to Caiger because I wanted to see a great, epic battle that everybody could enjoy and ruminate on. You know, something everyone could be proud of.

Now, I'm not going to comment on the quality of the defense - I think the facts speak volumes by themselves - but Caiger wails like a bunch of 14-year-old Thai hookers being broken in for the first time. Jesus H. Christ, what is *wrong* with Caiger Mall?

What's wrong with Caiger Mall? It's filled with survivors who so desperately want to relive the glory of the first siege that they care for nothing else and haven't realized that the mall has long since lost its' symbolic status. --User:Adrian Steiner 10:23, 16 August 2007

Disappointing. So very disappointing. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be down on you guys, but damn, if Caiger could fight half as well as it could talk shit, we'd all be back outside by now. --Vito Mortis 04:14, 17 August 2007

Your all a bunch of schizos, thats whats wrong. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 04:49, 17 August 2007 (BST)

This is no longer Caiger Mall it's now Barhah Bazaar. --SomaJaust 05:15, 17 August 2007 (BST)

The way I see it, the mall had been calling for help. This whole mess could have been averted if people had come to its aid back when the Latrobe Building had been under attack. The mall lost its symbolic status because we allowed it to. If we could put up a well-done defense there instead of insulting them, then we could have our glorious symbol back and go back to being able to say that we can in fact win. --dualshock71 04:31, 17 August 2007 (EST)

Hindsight is always 20/20. --SomaJaust 10:29, 17 August 2007 (BST)

It lost it's symbolism back when it came under control of a bunch of sheepy fools that like to run around with katanas. Not because we allowed it, no, it was taken by the very same people that defend it today. You want people to come and help more often? Show it. Drop the Uzis, the MP5s, the black leather coats, forget them. They're not needed now, and they'll never be needed.

Don't harp about LUE coming a month in advance. I stopped there with an alt back around July 17th, and in the 5 hours I was there, I heard 7 times "LUE is coming, we need reinforcements!". Not to mention how many times I heard it during the thrashing of all the other malls. After hearing that for a month, you really think anyone is going to care when they do show up?

And in my opinion, who cares if it falls? There is 19 more of them. The only reason it is special is because it lasted two siege. Both times Survivors out numbered zombies. Not only that, but the first siege zombies had to deal with a 70:30 split in population, upped needle rates, and the first version of headshot. In the second, the survivors out numbered the sieging zombies by over a thousand. It's pretty hard to win against a force that has a large advantage in the ap:damage ratio, that also happens to outnumber you 3:1. At least things have evened out a little bit for both sides since those times.

In short, forget it. Caiger is nothing but a failing, decrepit legend. Hopefully this sacking is going to teach you guys something.-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 10:30, 17 August 2007 (BST)

In response to the unsigned thing above SAs addition. There are no malls that are(strategically and statistically) easier to defend than Caiger, the failure is completely on the players, not the location.--Karek^maps?! 12:40, 17 August 2007 (BST)

Actually, that entire block of text is mine. And I forgot to remove that part. :D. I wrote it as soon as I woke up, so I was a bit groggy. I'm changing it now. Sorry for the confusion.-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 12:54, 17 August 2007 (BST)

My view. Caiger was doomed from the start. I went up from Ackland several WEEKS ago and surveyed the defenses, then projected on the AMS forums that Caiger would collapse within hours of the beginning of the attack. I had seen the work of LUE at Ackland and again at Hildebrand. Caiger had fallen far from the glory days when a thousand survivors stood ready behind the barricades to defend...what remained were several hundred people who did not appear to understand the sheer horror of what was descending on them. I went up with the Ackland Strike Team nevertheless, even though I knew in my heart that defeat was a certainty. If you want my opinion, I think the game is broken. Survivors are now essentially defenseless against the horde. With the combat-revive nerfed by the AP10 cost, the large building rules change, the ransack and the ruin, Kevan has fundamentally altered the dynamics of this game. The horde can attack whenever and wherever it pleases, and there is no way to survive it or repel it...the only hope is in anticipating where the horde will strike next and fleeing before it arrives. Even this is not necessarily successful...I know for a fact that LUE caught several malls completely off-guard, so swift was their advance. I think either new tools have to be devised or old rules revisited...but survivors need to have some type of fighting chance to survive or repel an attack. I do not know what that is, yet. But right now, zombies rule Malton regardless of the 55-45 divide. --==Commander Tarumigan Gistarai==

Tarumigan "The Pain Train" Gistarai

I rose to prominence in the Second Age of Burgundy (a far longer epoch than the better-known Third Age, known also as the Reckoning of Mantooth). My career can be summed up thusly:

1. I worked for Darnell Heights Police and found plenty of zombies to battle, but no beer.
2. I worked for Club Kick as a bouncer and found plenty of beer, but no zombies to battle.
3. I broke into Ackland Mall Security's office and stole their beer and battled their zombies.
4. On my way out of the Mall, celestial trumpets sounded, and an angelic host descended from the heavens bearing lances of flame to purge the zombie threat and to gift me with the very hammer of Thor Himself.
5. Unfortunately, the Hammer of Thor was stolen by fel minions of the wretched Mantooth...I had imbibed too much beer at the time.

On that day, I established the Creed, the law by which any upstanding citizen of Malton should live and die. Thus speaks Tarumigan:

1. Mantooth has defiled the Hammer of Thor. For this arrogance he shall be delivered unto the mercy of the Gods and endure an age of torment at the hands of Xyxzyix, the Insane Haunter of the Forbidden Word with A Thousand Thousand Spawn and Infinite Hands. I have spoken.
2. The Hammer shall be purified in the blood of the zombie, wretched spawn of Mantooth, and then shall be returned to its' rightful place on the Holy Tool Rack of Ackland Mall. I have spoken.
3. The beer shall flow. I have spoken.
4. There is no such thing as too much beer. I have spoken.
5. Suffer not the zombie. I have spoken.
6. The zombie must never, ever be suffered. There are no exceptions. I have spoken.
7. If the zombie is amusing, then it may be suffered. I have spoken.
8. Those who would aid in the return of the Hammer of Thor shall find absolution in Glorious Combat. I have spoken.
9. The path to enlightenment is paved with Ever-Greater Feats of Combat.
10. Conversely, those who would serve Mantooth shall share his torment at the hands of Xyxzyix, the Insane Haunter of the Forbidden yadda yadda yadda...

	Malton Marshals
	Tarumigan Gistarai is a member of the MM.

	Friend of the Octopope
	We stand by the Octopope. May his dark and holy ink blind our foes.

You shall venerate the warriors of the Octopope, for his ink shall blind your enemies and his hat is cool. So too shall you honor the Channel 4 News Team, your brothers in battle who are filled with Odin's love, mead, and hatred for zombie-kind.

Tarumigan Gistarai
Starting Occupation: Scourge of Mantooth Group Membership: Malton Marshals Goals: Prepare a new Cunning Plan to retake Malton from the unliving Username: Tarumigan More details: Urban Dead profile

Current Status

LOCATION UNKNOWN 5/18/2011- Right now, Tarumigan is doing his best to avoid being wrecked as The Dead rampage all around the city. Ever-Greater Feats of Combat need to take a backseat to actual survival, for once.

History

Player's Opinions

Taru's an awesome guy, it's a shame about the whole AMS issues. --Dr Stiles 19:00, 12 September 2007 (BST)

agreed. miss you Taru. You taught me well. le bourreau 13:15, 23 February 2008

Taru's a former member of AMS, and worth rival to LUE

Come back, the reign of Neuro is over, but it has left the group scarred and broken. doc crook 00:49, 27 September 2007 (BST)

You and me are like Brothers in arms.--Doctor Oberman 22:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

For he's a jolly good fellow. --Zambargh the Ravener 13:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Ptarmigan is a medium sized ground-nesting bird generally found in arctic or subarctic climates. --Riseabove 20:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

TARU GOOD HARMAN, GOT BIG MANBAGZ--Vrag Naroda 14:49, 8 June 2008 (BST) 12:54, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Response to My view. You say UD is broken, well I for me it depends on whether you look at it from an in-game or meta-game perspective. In-game, survivors rule and always have. Life for a non meta-gaming zombie is a very isolated almost non-interactive experience. No social network apart from garbled non-speech, even VS cades are a problem cos they waste 50AP just breaking in. What drives the UD zombie game is the NECESSITY of meta-gaming coordination to get any enjoyment from UD at all. And what's happened at Caiger Mall is not just an assault by the coordinated strike horde LUE, but LUE as the spearhead along with RRF and Extinction and Eastonwood Ferals and CRF and Minions and whoever else is around, all working together (where's Feral Undead?). The zombie meta-game has continued to evolve and gone up another level to meta-group coordination while the survivors at Caiger were still stuck with their in-game Mall chat rooms and seemingly little knowledge of or motivation for serious meta-game coordination. It's a systemic player culture problem and survivors are now so far behind in developing the meta-gaming skills needed to combat the zombie menace that in a meta-game sense I perhaps would agree that yes, the game is breaking unless they lift their meta-game like they did at Santlerville against the RRF. Maybe once LUE retires and the zombie meta-group coordination breaks down we'll return to UD business as usual ... otherwise Malton's living may very well be facing a Zombie Apocalypse. --Zeug 10:10, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Response to the Response to My view It's true that zombies are leading in the metagame. I tend to agree with Vito Mortis...zombies have developed a superior metagame because they HAD to. They've never had the type of communications systems that the survivors have had. Communication or no, however, this game is geared in such a way as to favor attackers. The attacker chooses when and where to bring the horde online...survivors can't anticipate which of the 24 hours in every day the zombies will choose to strike on, and we can't stick around constantly waiting for the attack. If a force like LUE, Extinction, or RRF comes knocking on the door, they can and will overwhelm any defenses in the safehouse...when LUE kicked in the door at Caiger, they slaughtered everyone in the NW Quadrant in a matter of minutes, then began to fan out to the others. In a few minutes, Caiger lost approximately 25% (or more) of its' entire population and suffered the fatal ransack. Many of the fatalities were first-responders who were trying to re-establish the barricades. I myself was almost killed by LUE zombies as I attempted to rebuild those barricades. Once the barricades come down, zombie faces survivor in a direct matchup...and despite the survivor's access to firearms, the zombie easily wins the AP battle. It's best to think of Malton as two worlds...the Outer World, out on the streets. The zombies have always ruled out here, since day one. Then there's the Inner World, the interiors of buildings and the networks of free-running lanes...survivors have dominated here traditionally. The barricade was the one thing dividing the two. Without an effective barricade, the Inner World becomes the Outer World. The abilities that Kevan has gifted to the zombies combined with their increasingly effective metagaming have nullified the barricade. When fifty or a hundred zombies all pound on the barricade all at once, it fails immediately, and after that the survivors get to spend a day or so looking for a revive. I bet you a lot of the Caiger defenders are STILL looking for revives because in addition to purging Caiger Mall, the horde also took out every nearby Necrotech facility during the course of 24-48 hours, also without difficulty. As a dedicated survivor, I'd like some way to fortify -myself- inside of buildings. I'd like to be able to scrounge for materials or be forced to use some skill-related ability that makes me harder to dig out of a building. I just don't know what that is yet. --==Commander Tarumigan Gistarai==

Tarumigan "The Pain Train" Gistarai

I rose to prominence in the Second Age of Burgundy (a far longer epoch than the better-known Third Age, known also as the Reckoning of Mantooth). My career can be summed up thusly:

1. I worked for Darnell Heights Police and found plenty of zombies to battle, but no beer.
2. I worked for Club Kick as a bouncer and found plenty of beer, but no zombies to battle.
3. I broke into Ackland Mall Security's office and stole their beer and battled their zombies.
4. On my way out of the Mall, celestial trumpets sounded, and an angelic host descended from the heavens bearing lances of flame to purge the zombie threat and to gift me with the very hammer of Thor Himself.
5. Unfortunately, the Hammer of Thor was stolen by fel minions of the wretched Mantooth...I had imbibed too much beer at the time.

On that day, I established the Creed, the law by which any upstanding citizen of Malton should live and die. Thus speaks Tarumigan:

1. Mantooth has defiled the Hammer of Thor. For this arrogance he shall be delivered unto the mercy of the Gods and endure an age of torment at the hands of Xyxzyix, the Insane Haunter of the Forbidden Word with A Thousand Thousand Spawn and Infinite Hands. I have spoken.
2. The Hammer shall be purified in the blood of the zombie, wretched spawn of Mantooth, and then shall be returned to its' rightful place on the Holy Tool Rack of Ackland Mall. I have spoken.
3. The beer shall flow. I have spoken.
4. There is no such thing as too much beer. I have spoken.
5. Suffer not the zombie. I have spoken.
6. The zombie must never, ever be suffered. There are no exceptions. I have spoken.
7. If the zombie is amusing, then it may be suffered. I have spoken.
8. Those who would aid in the return of the Hammer of Thor shall find absolution in Glorious Combat. I have spoken.
9. The path to enlightenment is paved with Ever-Greater Feats of Combat.
10. Conversely, those who would serve Mantooth shall share his torment at the hands of Xyxzyix, the Insane Haunter of the Forbidden yadda yadda yadda...

	Malton Marshals
	Tarumigan Gistarai is a member of the MM.

	Friend of the Octopope
	We stand by the Octopope. May his dark and holy ink blind our foes.

You shall venerate the warriors of the Octopope, for his ink shall blind your enemies and his hat is cool. So too shall you honor the Channel 4 News Team, your brothers in battle who are filled with Odin's love, mead, and hatred for zombie-kind.

Tarumigan Gistarai
Starting Occupation: Scourge of Mantooth Group Membership: Malton Marshals Goals: Prepare a new Cunning Plan to retake Malton from the unliving Username: Tarumigan More details: Urban Dead profile

Current Status

LOCATION UNKNOWN 5/18/2011- Right now, Tarumigan is doing his best to avoid being wrecked as The Dead rampage all around the city. Ever-Greater Feats of Combat need to take a backseat to actual survival, for once.

History

Player's Opinions

Taru's an awesome guy, it's a shame about the whole AMS issues. --Dr Stiles 19:00, 12 September 2007 (BST)

agreed. miss you Taru. You taught me well. le bourreau 13:15, 23 February 2008

Taru's a former member of AMS, and worth rival to LUE

Come back, the reign of Neuro is over, but it has left the group scarred and broken. doc crook 00:49, 27 September 2007 (BST)

You and me are like Brothers in arms.--Doctor Oberman 22:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

For he's a jolly good fellow. --Zambargh the Ravener 13:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Ptarmigan is a medium sized ground-nesting bird generally found in arctic or subarctic climates. --Riseabove 20:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

TARU GOOD HARMAN, GOT BIG MANBAGZ--Vrag Naroda 14:49, 8 June 2008 (BST) 12:54, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Another Thought It seems to me that there is another issue that separates the survivors from the zombies - griefers. In a sense the fall of Ciager owes as much to 'survivors' acting on behalf of the zombies as it does to the actions of the zombies themselves. As it stands there are multiple ways to grief defenders and no credible way of doing so to zombie hordes. I would suggest that one way to address the balance of the game would be to make griefing zombies an easier thing to do. For example, remove the restriction on groaning such that you can do it at any time. This would allow higher level zombies (at least those who aren't happy about the current situation) the ability to issue 'decoy' groans that would siphon of a few zombie APs at a time as nearby zeds wander over to empty areas.

Consider also that there are many 'survivors' who fight for zombie-dom more than their fellow survivors and it seems that UD shouldn't treat the zombie/survivor divide as an absolute any more. Perhaps its time to lift the anonymity that zombies hold? This would make it as easy to engage in inter-zombie warfare in the future as inter-survivor warfare is today. That alone would go far in limiting the overwhelming superiority that zombies currently hold. JonMonster 08:38, 19 August 2007 (BST)

A Prediction In two months, LUE will get tired of playing zombies, and the horde will switch to playing humans, probably with new characters. With the amount of coordination they have, they'll easily clear out Ridleybank, and keep clearing it out twice a week until they get tired of it or the zombies get tired of trying to hold it. If they have any trouble at all doing this, then I'll concede the game is unbalanced. (Note I said 'keep clearing it out', not 'keep it clear'. I agree defense is impossible in UD.) Smiley 10:09, 19 August 2007 (BST)

real quick

can anyone change the "safe" status to "under attack"?

The August 2007 attack on Caiger

Just glancing at the entry for Aug 16 it's easy to see this is going to get messy and quick. Any guidelines for removing spam updates, and what's the kosher way to reformat/edit someone else's comments to be grammatically proper?--Insomniac By Choice 22:57, 16 August 2007 (BST)

In situations like this, I'd suggest "Just the facts, ma'am" be the guide.--Jorm 23:01, 16 August 2007 (BST)

Having read this, I'm unsure where to even begin cleaning up this crap.--Jorm 23:20, 16 August 2007 (BST)

Neutrality

I've removed the section titled "The First Ruin of Caiger". It's called neutrality, people.--EvilCartman 05:25, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Neutrality on Caiger? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! --Sonny Corleone ^{RRF CoL DORIS CRF pr0n} 05:28, 18 August 2007 (BST)

...but what about the Sieges of Caiger? Those are allowed, but because we're LUE we're not recognized? --TheNeoianOne 05:47, 18 August 2007 (BST)

I think a certain mall is pissed because it was taken down within a day... :P.-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 05:51, 18 August 2007 (BST)

There's nothing biased about calling it "The First Ruin of Caiger." It is, in fact, the first ruining of Caiger. You, cartman, are the one guilty of not being neutral - and while I do not intend to get into some editing pissing contest, I am going to make an issue of this. --McTrout 05:55, 18 August 2007 (BST)

I agree with McTrout....the neutrality police have repeatedly gone too far. While I do not mean to suggest that impartiality is unimportant, I feel that we need to bear in mind what this wiki is for and who reads it. --Tarumigan 12:55, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Ya, that isn't right. There was really nothing bias about that part of the article. It literally was the first ruin (since it was just added to game) of the Caiger Mall. Seriously sounds like after all the smack you talked, and the quick ownage, you just don't want to admit it. --Nickofearth 06:06, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Fixed everything. --Sonny Corleone ^{RRF CoL DORIS CRF pr0n} 06:11, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Thanks Sonny. And before you get any ideas, EvilCartman, I've asked Hagnat to give us a ruling. There is going to be a mention of the first ruining of Caiger Mall by LUE on the wiki. You'd better get used to the idea.--McTrout 06:20, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Woot! Go Sonny! Doing what everyone else is too lazy to! :).-- dǝǝɥs oʇ ɯɐds: sʎɐʍ1ɐ! 06:24, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Actually, I do find myself agreeing with Cartman. Not his reasoning, but the deletion of the article. Was this really an event? The zombies showed up and the mall fell, same thing that's happened what, two dozen other times this summer? Unless something changes over the next few days, what was significant about this other than the fact that it happened to a once great mall and involved a lot of inter-group cooperation? That's a bigger story to me than what happened to Caiger.--Insomniac By Choice 07:13, 18 August 2007 (BST)

I consider the term "The Fourth Siege of Caiger" will be more appropiate. The new "ruin" action did not bring any significant changes to this battle when compared with the previous ones. --MP7 08:48, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Uh huh, but a "siege" suggests something lasting longer than a day. Which this didn't. "The Caiger Mauling" might be more appropriate. But like I said, this wasn't significant or special except that literally, Caiger was ruined for the first time. It was firmly in survivor hands and "folded like a wet newspaper". What is there to write about beyond that (and zombies working together)? Really, there's not enough for an article. There's enough for a stub, but not enough for an article.--Insomniac By Choice 08:54, 18 August 2007 (BST)

I completely get your point, Insomniac, but if there is a "First Ruin of Caiger", people will then probably come up with names like "fall", "assault", "attack", and whatever new names, which are also appropiate at some point. LUE and other zombie groups probably planned to lay a relatively long attack (siege) on the mall but the mall just fell so easily. I think there should be an article recording the attack and the defense (close to none) of the mall and the word "ruin" will only attract attention to the fall of the mall without expressing significant meaning. --MP7 18:51, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Your keyword being 'probably'. However, the facts would tell you that this "siege" barely lasted over twelve hours -- other than the caders, the zeds didn't meet any significant resistance from the mall dwellers. When LUE started its frontal assault to the NW corner and felled it in 40 minutes, there was no longer effort made to take back the ground lost, or even do evacuation plans (only AMS did, and they barely escaped with their lives).

And should we remind you that history is often molded from the point of view of the victors? Face it: you lost, and your dream of it becoming anything near to what you can reasonably call a "siege" didn't come to fruition. --Aeon17x 20:51, 18 August 2007 (BST)

First of all, the title is right, and an entry in the caigar mall main page should be kept. It was the first time caigar was ruined, but only the future will tell if it will ever be ruined again. Perhaps harmans will once again organize themselves to defend their bastion of humanity, or whatever they used to kill it in the good ole days. Second, the article about this fact is really pooor. It has a single image filling the entire page, and a few notes on who did what and when. Or that article is expanded (neutrally expanded) and put in higher standards of quality, or i'll be the one asking for it to be deleted, leaving only a few notes in the Caiger Mall page.. Third, behave civily and respect your enemies. This is a game, and game should be fun and create friendships, not the opposite. --People's Commissar Hagnat ^{[cloned] [mod]} 21:49, 18 August 2007 (BST)

Agreed on the article - it needs work. I'll see about IBC, myself, and the original author getting together and making something that is both more informative and agreeable to all parties.--McTrout 04:29, 19 August 2007 (BST)

Yes, this article definitely needs some serious work and I am willing to contribute (I have some data). Also, I would like to emphasize that I try my best to be neutral and do not write in this wiki in the favour of victors/losers/humans/zombies. It is not my "dream" of making this as a "siege". Please show respect to other people. --MP7 07:12, 19 August 2007 (BST)

If you call it "the fourth siege" you run into the problem that the mall has already changed hands several times since the third siege. Zombies held it after Shacknews for two months, then the survivors took it back and held it until February and zombies had it again, then survivors have held it for the past three and a half months until a couple days ago. I think the last time zombies sacked Caiger, it took three days to completely ransack it. Like I've said elsewhere, the "first ruin" is a literal description of what sets this apart from previous ones, other than the speed. Bale Mall was the first mall in the game ruined, and this is the first time Caiger was ruined. We're stretching to find something worth talking about here. The hardest fighting I personally experienced was against AMS guys who defended against an OEM? break-in in the afternoon and actively barricaded against LUE assault at night. Everything else was just overwhelmed. Caiger was just another mall and it lost. There's nothing to analyze or signify beyond that except that the myth of invincibility or specialness should have been put to rest at last.--Insomniac By Choice 07:51, 19 August 2007 (BST)

Smack? I haven't said one single word about the zombies beating us. I haven't even been around that mall. It is almost embarassing to be a Caiger Mall Survivor, because everyone just jumps on the bandwagon when we win, and everyone just runs away when we lose, screaming "Caiger sucks, yay Mall Tour!" or whatever other Zombie group is attacking the mall. I like the mall, just not some the people within it. As for it being taken down in a day? I'm sad that you zombies will be in it, as it's a great mall, but at the same time I'm glad, hoping that the true Caigerites will return, the ones that have worn "Caiger Mall Survivors" as their group since it was founded, the ones that were there for the original sieges, with the RRF, and Mall Tour '06. --EvilCartman 03:32, 21 August 2007 (BST)

August 24th

Why is Caiger so important anyyway? I mean, stratigiecly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BoboTalkClown (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.

It's the main supply base for NW Malton, all the suburbs around it have supply lines through to the mall. So when Caiger becomes Barhah Mall all the lights across NW Malton go out. For Extinction it's the key to holding our top NW Extinction Zone through to Calvert Mall as well as the entire DMZ. And now the entire NW Quadrant of Malton is red and a natural breeding ground for feral zombies every zed group in the region benefits. --Zeug 11:55, 27 August 2007 (BST)

The only reason why Caiger is important is the buildings around it, specifically the mass of NTs.--Karek^maps?! 11:59, 28 August 2007 (BST)

Related Articles

There are several articles related to Caiger mall. Some such articles are:

• The Survivors are Retaking Caiger Mall
• Why Caiger Fell
• What We Can Do About It!
• Ross Report

--Yonnua Koponen ^{Talk ! Contribs} 19:42, 8 October 2009 (BST)

Recent News

The most recent update perhaps less so, but what's POV about Dragon's first post? The Globetrotters rebuilt and are currently taking the lead on defending the Mall, and the area to the South and West is largely dangerous. Just facts.

Considering the page has been updated less than a half dozen times in the past 7 years before the most recent updates, taking an overly zealous approach on the matter seems unnecessary. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 13:41, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I really don't appreciate having my very neutral reporting of the facts removed, stelar. Nothing I said is inaccurate or non-neutral - the mall is currently safe, it does border the DMZ (which is a dangerous area) and it is being upkept by members of the Malton Globetrotters. --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 14:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

... Areas further west and/or south remain unsafe for travel, habitation, or viewing by survivors. basically sounds like you are a zombie wanting to have the area for yourself. The rest is completely objective though. -- ∀UDIO∀TTACK (talk) 22:45, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I discussed whether it was NPOV or not with Bob, and he agreed neither were really from an NPOV, thus the removal. stelar ^{Talk|MCM|EBD|Scourge} 22:54, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Where was this secret discussion that gives you such exalted status? Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 23:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, because the Danger Map being marked dangerous or worse in the suburbs immediately south and west of Caiger is *so* biased. --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I too would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind why the initial news entries were POV. I don't think anything they said is what I would typically define as POV, provided the statements can be proved. A ZOMBIE ANT 09:15, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@DDR — The second message (from Sniper) was incredibly POV — saying ENVY are PKers, referring to a group as the "Mall Managers" (if you want that title, change the group's name), and providing an explicit "warning" to Survivors regarding strategy, rather than actually talking about the status of the mall. On fourth (or fifth, or whatever this is) look, the first message (from Dragonshardz) seems ok, just contradictory to the under attack/under siege DangerReport. Note: Edited to fix NPOV, see below Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 12:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

@Sniper — Stelar and I discussed on Discord, which several sysops (and many, many other users) use as a quicker way to reach one another than wiki edits. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 12:33, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

So you're saying they are spreading false information, right. I'm still behind on which groups are claiming to do differently to what they do in-game. Ok.

In either case, I think you and Stelar have been misusing the term NPOV (from time to time) in this discussion. What you describe from Sniper's post was POV- Point Of View, meaning it was not NPOV- Neutral Point of View, which is what we actually enforce on the wiki. At least, I hope that's what it is, because the different uses has been confusing me in the last two days. A ZOMBIE ANT 21:56, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Whoops, you're right. I tend to make these replies early in the morning before work, so I apologize for my lack-of-awakeness! Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 12:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Shockingly, the edits of one person summing up the situation as of July 3 might differ from reports made a whopping 14 days later. --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 00:07, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm not particularly anal about NPOV, as long as there isn't too much mudslinging between groups or things become not factual. I think only this edit is questionable, from what I've seen. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 23:01, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Bob can you tell me why I shouldn't be calling the group that spent much of the last three weeks killing players in Caiger player killers? There's NPOV and there's sticking your head in the ground. I didn't realize Stelar was a sysop at the time I made that original post, if that clarifirs that particular point. Otherwise yes, obviously a post from 7/3 is not going to jive with events post-zerg/rrf invasion. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 00:12, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Literally nobody (Globetrotters, ENVY, casual observers, anybody else) has demonstrated with a shred of evidence that this is anything other than a war between two survivor groups. Such wars have happened in the past, but it's a he-said she-said about who "started it" and therefore who qualifies as PKers/counter-PKers/Bounty Hunters/just trying to annoy the greater Caiger region residents (and Recent Changes watchers lol). Thus any stuff in Danger Reports referring to either group as PKers is POV in my book.

Here's my recommendation — if you want to talk about it, say "there are also PKers active in the area". No statement on who, no accusations or propaganda flying around. And technically it's true without even paying attention to either MG or ENVY — the RRF are at Caiger now and they've been PKing! (Maybe EBD should become a PKer group too, seems all the cool kids are doing it these days :P ) Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 12:52, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

This edit war isn't as fun as that one with Lord and Bendaldo a few days ago. -- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 23:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

It's gay as fuck though so I'm all for it. --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23:56, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

1) It's annoying, not "gay", and 2) the page is now protected since edit wars aren't constructive. Y'all can discuss the edits in question here or go to A/A. Bob Moncrief ^EBD•W! 02:32, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

1) Something Awful memes are valid memes, please don't memeshame.

2) This isn't NPOV: The Ridleybank Resistance Front, spearheaded by the Gore Corps, have commenced an assault on the previously safely held mall, as a part of their Project Intervention anti-drugs offensive. With local zombies also joining in the attack, casualties on the first day have been severe, with more anticipated in the coming days. --LordMoloch (talk) 21:48, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

It editorializes the facts (the RRF has attacked, the mall has fallen, etc.) and publicizes an internal operation of the RRF. It also purports that the RRF is responsible in the main for the mall falling into ruin, when the count of zombies in the area was in excess of the group's numbers and appears to have consisted in the main of zombies following a sequential naming scheme, AKA the hallmarks of a (likely unaffiliated) zerg. --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 04:03, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Agreed - if NPOV is to be scrupulously adhered to, this does not seem to fit the bill. Sniper4625 #4625 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 04:13, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

When pages are protected to stop an edit war, they're usually temporarily protected as they are, both for better and worse. Edit wars rarely result in anyone getting what they want.

I agree that the statement isn't NPOV as it's currently written, but resolving the issue is mostly up to the involved parties. Barring that, others (e.g. the peanut gallery here, including me) may eventually just push for it to be rolled back to its pre-contested state while being kept protected, that way the edit warring doesn't resume and the NPOV content is gone, at which point none of the people who wanted their content on the page will get what they want. —Aichon— 16:38, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

It seems like there's a lot going on, a lot of groups involved and a lot of content incoming. Would your groups consider sharing an actual event page where you can editorialise your own content, POV or otherwise, and merely link Caiger Mall onwards to it, with a neutral descriptor? THE CENTRAL SCRUTINIZER 06:59, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

No, thank you. --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I'll be (uncharacteristically) brief. My interest in suburbs (and their wiki pages) typically lasts until the Front are about a suburb or two away, so there's usually little reason for me to bother about what remains on a page and what doesn't. So, had it vanished in a few days I probably would not have noticed. My position is this: I'm happy for the reference to Project Intervention to come out. It's the part that I was least convinced about and the one that I would have offered to edit out, had the post been moved to the Talk Page, as opposed to being summarily wiped. The rest is exactly along the lines of stuff that I have posted countless times without problem. --LordMoloch (talk) 19:15, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I haven't spoken with my underlings, but I believe that this is more to do with someone else being able to remove recent "POV" news without any discussion. Also, not actually a boss, so I have no underlings.-- LABIA on the INTERNET ^{Dunell Hills Corpseman} #24 - |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ^TMG 20:37, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm under you now, though, so go you! --【ⅎooɹd ǝʌɐɥ ᴉ sʇɐoƃ sʍoʅʚ ⅎǝᴉɹɔuoɯ uǝɹɐʞ】 ☉ ☉ |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 23:22, 20 July 2018 (UTC)