View source for Suggestion:20070819 Door Modification - no more "open" vs "closed"

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===20070819 Door Modification - no more "open" vs "closed"===

{{User:Swiers/Sig}} 07:09, 19 August 2007 (BST)

'''Suggestion type'''<br />
game update

'''Suggestion scope'''<br />
doors, memories of life

'''Suggestion description'''<br />
''background'' - Urban Dead buildings originally had no doors and no barricades.  Doors were introduced first, then barricades.  Doors are a bit redundant now.  This suggestion would change how they work so that they aren't 100% effective against low level zombies, which is newbie friendly and also just makes sense.  Conversely, its silly that one zombie can open a door and it stays open forever if not closed; most modern doors have some sort of mechanical closing device.

''effect'' - Most buildings have doors.  Churches and Junkyards do not (or at least have doors which any zombie can open) and Ruined buildings also effectively have no doors (the doors are either jammed open or off the hinges).  If a building has a door, that door is always a potential impedimant to a zombie; it can't be "left open" indefinitely, nor can it (or need it) be "secured", except by barricading.<br>Buildings with doors are difficult for zombies to enter even when not barricaded; zombies tend to "fumble around" a bit before they get in.  When attempting to enter a building that has a door, a zombie has a 75% chance of failing to enter, with a message saying something along the lines of "You fumble with the door, but are having trouble- you'll need to try again."  [[Memories of Life]] eliminates this fumbling, and lets a zombie enter any building that is not barricaded for just 1 AP (as they do now).

''analysis'' - while a first glance this seems to weaken doors, it actually makes them a BETTER defense over all.  Currently it takes 1 AP for a zombie with MOL to enter a building, leaving the door open for unskilled zombies to come in for a cost of 1 AP.  Under this suggestion, EVERY unskilled zombies would pay an average of 4 AP to enter any building that has a door, which means a larger expenditure of AP in total.  This strongly encourages zombies who lack MOL to look for and eat people in the streets, even if they DO know where an open building is, just to save the 4 AP it would cost to enter said building.  On the other hand, its also better for newbie zombies who really do want to enter a building- after tearing down barricades, why should a door stop them cold?

''credits'' - it should be noted that this suggestion is an outgrowth of the "developing suggestion" discussion at [[Talk:Suggestions#Rough_Barricades]].  

====Voting Section====
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'''Keep Votes'''
#'''Keep''' - Yes.--{{User:Suicidalangel/Sig}} 07:16, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - I like the sound of this one. --{{User:Dux Ducis/sig}} 07:24, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Author's vote.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 07:26, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#Sure.--[[User:ShadowScope|ShadowScope]] 07:26, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Sounds nice. Even if I didn't understood it, it sounds nice--{{User:Savant 231 A/sig}} 09:32, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' makes a kind of sense.--{{User:Blood Panther/Sig}} 08:47, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' Yup. (oh, I moved your vote to the right area, BP, Is that ok to do?)--[[User:Seventythree|Seventythree]] 10:18, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Makes sense. --[[User:Midianian|Midianian]] 10:26, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Evrything makes perfect sense --[[User:Duke Garland|<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>]]<sub>[[User talk:Duke Garland|T]]</sub><sup>[[LCD|']][[Signature Race|']][[SSZ|']]</sup> 11:14, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - This would help lone zombies level up. -- [[User:Pavluk|Pavluk]] 12:36, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' <s>'''Maybe'''</s> - How would this work with feeding drag which currently requires doors to be opened ?--[[User:Pestilent Nomad|Pestilent Nomad]] 14:05, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#:Since doors can't be opened or closed, Feeding Drag would instead work whenever there is no barricade.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 14:19, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#::Re: If zombies don't loose feeding drag I think it could work.  Would actually make feeding drag more useful.--[[User:Pestilent Nomad|Pestilent Nomad]] 14:59, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Brilliant''' - It's a great idea, the logic is sound, and it helps newb zombies, as well as survivors! [[User:BoboTalkClown|BoboTalkClown]] 15:40, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - It's just plain logic :) [[User:Sockem|Sockem]] 18:17, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' This assumes the doors stay "left wide open" after a newbie opens them. --[[User:Secruss|Secruss]] 18:33, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#:Not quite.  It just assumes that simply closing a door won;t stop a zombie cold, although it might slow them down a bit.  To actually "secure" a door, you'd need to lock it from the inside (which takes keys in most commercial buildings), block the handles (the new pipe upgrade) or put something in the way to stop it opening (aka "barricade").  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 13:47, 26 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - YES! --[[User:Saromu|Sonny Corleone]] <sup>[[ The Ridleybank Resistance Front|RRF]] [[Council of Leaders|CoL]] [[DORIS]] [[Caiger Resistance Front|CRF]] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91a8pHj7V9k pr0n]</sup> 23:28, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - I'm for it.--[[User:Jiangyingzi|Jiangyingzi]] 00:17, 20 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Hummm, this sounds good to me. -- [[User:BigJD|JD]] 05:20, 20 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' – I like it. {{User:Revenant/Sig}} 10:53, 21 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Even though I disagree with your analysis, this is still an improvement for newbie zombies. --&nbsp;[[User:Toejam|<small><span style="border:solid #000000 1px; background-color: #FFFFFF; color: black">&nbsp;T&nbsp;</span></small>]]&nbsp; 11:10, 21 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' – I like it. --[[User:Nikitis|Nikitis]] 17:48, 22 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Why not? -- {{User:JohnRubin/sig}} 17:24, 23 August 2007 (BST)
# Keep. [[User:Grant|Grant]] 04:57, 24 August 2007 (BST)\
#'''Keep''' - Cause I've yet to read anything convincing for why this isn't a good idea. Barricades or doors, you don't need both.--{{User:Karek/sig}} 23:45, 24 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Keep''' nice, but it should be more then 4. Some low levelers would still go in for that price.--[[User:Kaynex|Kaynex]] 00:16, 29 August 2007 (BST)
#:'''Keep''' "after tearing down barricades, why should a door stop them cold?" This says EVERYTHING. {{User:Monstah/Sig}} 01:59, 3 September 2007 (BST)
#::2 weeks of voting were up <small>The preceding signed comment was added by [[User:Boxy|boxy]] ([[User talk:Boxy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Boxy|contribs]]) at 09:54 5 September 2007 (BST)</small>
#:'''Keep''' Yes. There is finally a use for doors. I like it. -[[User:Jordan Salafack|Jordan Salafack]] 5:04 PM, 4 September 2007 (MT)
#::2 weeks of voting were up <small>The preceding signed comment was added by [[User:Boxy|boxy]] ([[User talk:Boxy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Boxy|contribs]]) at 09:54 5 September 2007 (BST)</small>
 
'''Kill Votes'''
#'''Kill''' - I think something should be done about doors, but this isn't it. --[[User:Insomniac By Choice|Insomniac By Choice]] 07:33, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' Newbie zombies should concentrate on junkyards or churches if they don't have a higher level team-mate to open the doors (well actually I had little trouble getting into places just by following groans to sieges, but regardless...). Churches and junkyards seem to be just as likely to be inhabited as any other ordinary building, but don't have doors <small>The preceding signed comment was added by [[User:Boxy|boxy]] ([[User talk:Boxy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Boxy|contribs]]) at 13:00 19 August 2007 (BST)</small> [edit] Oh, and it nerfs any method that newbie survivors have of preventing/slowing down feeding drag by removing doors from the equation and making it so that only those with construction (barricaders) can have any affect on it <small>The preceding signed comment was added by [[User:Boxy|boxy]] ([[User talk:Boxy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Boxy|contribs]]) at 15:31 19 August 2007 (BST)</small>
#'''Kill''' I don't want low level zombies coming in to kill me...one reason low level zombies shouldn't be allowed in is because it keeps them from unknowingly spending the night inside a safehouse, which is about as bad as a survivor sleeping in the streets. I feel doors keep low level zombies safer, but that's just my humble opinion.{{User:Lemonhead7t7/Sig}} 13:53, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#:"Unknowingly spending the night in a safehouse?"  What "safehouse" only has the protection of a door?  Not a very safe one... {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 14:27, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#:Yeah, If anyones looking for a safe house, They woulden't waste there time with, a zombie, or even enter the building when its doors are left open. Thinking of the noobs, this is really a plus, not a minus. --[[User:Kaynex|Kaynex]] 00:22, 29 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill/Change''' - I almost like it enough to vote keep, but I think there's one problem. If there is a very large number of zombies attacking and entering a building, every single one that doesn't have MoL would have to get past the door individually. This isn't realistic OR fun for those who will waste all their AP just trying to get through the door. With a big mass of zombies trying to get through, the door would tend to stay open, once it is first opened, even if it had a mechanical means of shutting itself. If you changed this so that the door remains open, as long as there is at least 1 zombie inside and 1 zombie outside the building, I would vote keep. --[[User:Steakfish|Steakfish]] 22:30, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#:One thing to remember is that timing in Urban Dead is a slippery concept at best.  Just because 40 zombie players all log in and enter a building in the same 5 minute period, doesn't really mean that 5 minute period would be the only time during the day which they were actively trying to get in.  And hell, I've seen crowds of real HUMANS have some amusing problems with doors...  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 22:38, 19 August 2007 (BST)
#::Point taken. You countered the realism part of my argument, but it still wouldn't be fun to help a horde of fellow zombies beat down the barricades, then watch all the ones with MoL and a few of the ones without it walk in effortlessly, while you and a few of the other unlucky newbies remain foiled by the door, spending all your AP but getting nowhere. --[[User:Steakfish|Steakfish]] 23:12, 19 August 2007 (BST)
# I like the idea.  I just have two problems with it (which kind of relates to [[User:Boxy|boxy]]'s kill argument.  First I don't think Boxy read the suggestion clearly enough.  As *I* read it, the doors are ALWAYS closed.  If a zombie goes through, the door closes behind them.  If that's the case it nerfs ZOMBIES using Feeding Drag, not newbie survivors trying to defend against it. And barricades/barricaders are irrelevant under the cirucmstances.  Secondly, I never liked the idea that a survivor could enter a building without first having to open the doors.  A zombie rips the barricade down, then opens then door then enters.  Survivors don't have to do that.  They can just bypass the barricades AND the doors.  I suppose that doesn't matter since, in that instance, the "door" is part of the barricade.--[[User:Pesatyel|Pesatyel]] 04:10, 20 August 2007 (BST)
#:Doors would simply be irrelevant in regards to feeding drag.  The whole point of the suggestion is that doors are no longer "open" or "closed".  They are just there or not there, and if there its harder for zombies to get in if they lack MOL.  For other purposes, doors would simply not be a factor.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 04:36, 20 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Roughly half of the doors I know of in real life automatically close, and it would be easy to accidentally jam them open if I were moving like a zombie (or otherwise wanted to) - I don't think this suggestion is very realistic. It might be interesting to allow door damage and require repair skills to replace them, but that's not this. --[[User:Pgunn|Pgunn]] 05:25, 20 August 2007 (BST) 
#'''Kill''' - I actually like the current system better, sorry. Seems like following a recent groan or attacking doorless buildings would be far better than wasting AP in a door like extra barricades, IMHO. --{{User:Matthewfarenheit/Signature}} 07:34, 23 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - I also think something should be done with doors, just not this. The gap between being low level and high doesn't really need to be narrowed in this way. --[[User:Sara M|Sara M]] 09:59, 23 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - I like everything except for the fact that it seems that EVERY zombie entering a building will have to open the door. Every door I've seen that automatically closes (without the need of power) is just a push/pull door anyway so by that argument a zombie just walking into it(from the right side, in everyplace I've been doors of this type open outwards for panic/safety laws) would open it and they don't close so fast that someone else can't walk in behind them before it shuts. Doors that do open inwards usually don't latch on their own when they close either. Basically what I'm saying is there is a LOT of variants of doors, not all of them close at all much less all the way and they don't close quick enough to prevent a group of zombies all from walking in one behind each other. Maybe keep it so that doors are open/closed but without MOL it takes what you said above (maybe more difficult) to get inside? --[[User:Dipcup|Dipcup]] 16:59, 24 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Why? We just don't need this... Besides, it's now obsolete given the lead pipe heart attack machine change. --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 01:36, 25 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." --[[User:Macampos|Private Mark]] 04:18, 26 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - I agree with your sentiments however i don't agree with "Conversely, its silly that one zombie can open a door and it stays open forever if not closed; most modern doors have some sort of mechanical closing device.". If we're going to get picky about mechanical closing devices then Malls shouldn't have doors as they have mechanical openning devices. Overall i prefer [[Suggestion:20070822_Tear_Down_Doors|this suggestion]] as a solution to the same issue with a better feel for it. Personally i think the game needs less "i have a 40% chance of doing absolutely bupkiss today" mechanics not more. --[[User:Bahhab|Bahhab]] 11:39, 26 August 2007 (BST)
#:Hmm, that link seems bad right now.  This may not be an ideal solution for all conceivable door types, but the random behavior is meant to balance that over all.  I'll look for that other link later; I hope this suggestion got people thinking about how "obsolete" the current door mechanic is.  It seems Kevan likes to mix elements of multiple suggestions into a single update anyhow.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 13:55, 26 August 2007 (BST)
#::'''RP''': Link works for me. If it doesn't for you look for "Tear Down Doors" on Current Suggestions. --[[User:Bahhab|Bahhab]] 13:57, 29 August 2007 (BST)
#'''Kill''' It seems good, but all zeds would rather spend 4AP to find a Survivor when unskilled. 4AP unskilled gets you-what? 2 Blocks? Waaaaaay overpowered...--[[User:Driaquer|Driaquer]] 07:28, 1 September 2007 (BST)

'''Spam/Dupe Votes'''
#'''Spam''' - Please don't try to pass off a zombie buff as something that is helpful for survivors. The damage 3 AP can do is 9-12, which is enough to be dragged into the street if not killed.--[[User:Labine50|Labine50]] <sup>[[Malton Hospitals Group|MHG]]|[[Malton Emergency Medical Service|MEMS]]</sup> 05:40, 20 August 2007 (BST)
#:I'm missing your point entirely then.  You seem to be (correctly) pointing out that newbie zombies spend 3 more AP on average entering an open building (but can always enter) - so yep, as you say, that's a street dragging or killing that might not happen.  Who DOES that help, if not survivors?  Yes, it also helps the newbie zombies, by making so they are not forced to walk around looking for open doors.  So it potentially helps BOTH sides- that's generally called "balanced", isn't it?  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 14:01, 26 August 2007 (BST)
#:{{s|1=Yeah, Noobs without MOL can do 9-12 damage without any skill? OK... And noobs don't have The ability to drag people, do they? This is also a Kill, Not a spam. --[[User:Kaynex|Kaynex]] 00:28, 29 August 2007 (BST)}} Non author re <small>The preceding signed comment was added by [[User:Boxy|boxy]] ([[User talk:Boxy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Boxy|contribs]]) at 09:54 5 September 2007 (BST)</small>