View source for Suggestion:20080526 Fighting Drag

<noinclude>
{{removed|for revision to reflect the May 28th update and voter opinions below}}
{{Suggestion Navigation}}
{{TOCright}}
</noinclude>
===20080526 Fighting Drag===

{{User:Swiers/Sig}} 01:07, 26 May 2008 (BST)

'''Suggestion type'''<br />
Skill

'''Suggestion scope'''<br />
Zombies

'''Suggestion description'''<br />
:'''mechanics'''
:*100 XP, zombie skill.  Requires the skill "Feeding Drag" to purchase.  
:*Provides zombies with a new drop menu (called "Fighting Drag") filled with the the normal array of targets.  Using "Fighting Drag" has the same mechanics and effects as using "Feeding Drag" but costs 10 AP (if successful ; 0 if failed) and works on survivors with 25 or fewer HPs.  ''This is separate from the attack menu to avoid accidental usage due to slipped fingers, and to make the 10 AP cost clearly different from all the 1 AP attacks.  The "0 AP if failed" clause avoids people wasting AP people using "fighting drag" on survivors who have been healed since the page they are viewing was created or any of several other cases where feeding drag normally fails (at 0 AP cost) for want of a valid target.  Note that the 10 AP cost DOES allow you to go into negative APs; that is largely the purpose.''

:'''analysis'''
:*Using "Fighting Drag" on a 25 HP survivor and then killing them takes a LOT more AP than simply killing them, or doing enough damage that you could then use "Feeding Drag."  However, it would allow zombies to try some new tactics.  One would be making very fast (in terms of real time combat) execution of drags (to take advantage of brief cade breaches), especially on recently revived survivors who have not been healed.  Another would be doing a "Fighting Drag" while at 9 or less AP, allowing the zombie to have a potentially powerful "closing move" that takes them to negative APs.  It basically requires one zombie to spend a fair number of AP to try and "recruit" the help of another who maybe did not make it through the barricades or whatever.  

====Voting Section====
{{SugVoteBox}}


'''Keep Votes'''
#'''Keep'''- Why not. Zombies need another update. [[User:Ioncannon11|Ioncannon11]] 01:09, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - But see my question on the discussion page. --[[User:Uncle Bill|Uncle Bill]] 01:13, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#: Author's vote {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 02:02, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Keep''' --[[User:BoboTalkClown|BoboTalkClown]] 03:34, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - But I'd rather see a skill which enables zombies to open doors from the inside when dragging for a couple of extra AP so that the Feeding Drag skill isn't entirely raped by a single AP action which requires no skills to perform. --[[User:The Hierophant|The Hierophant]] 03:47, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Could be useful. --{{User:Midianian/Sig}} 10:01, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - A zombie idea that is not overpowered, I say keep. --[[User:Pvt human|Pvt human]] 12:17, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - It sounds like an update to an already existing skill that, so far as I am concerned, is quite usable. [[User:John Ibans|John Ibans]] 16:13, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - Useful --[[User:Heretic144|Heretic144]] 21:37, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Strong Keep''' -hell yes. --[[User:Karloth_vois|K]][http://sites.gizoogle.com/index2.php?url=http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/User_talk:Karloth_vois arloth Vois TALK] <sup>[http://sites.gizoogle.com/index2.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.urbandead.com%2Findex.php%2FRed_Rum RR]</sup> 13:20, 27 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Keep''' - For people who said no because of 10AP meaning it will never be used, I can see how this would be very useful for clearing out a building, even at 10AP. Plus it's less button-mashing than attacking multiple times (you might miss, remember) then using feeding drag.  Though I would like if it was a little less than 20 or 24HP since newly revived survivors start at 25HP. --[[User:Tselita|Tselita]] 17:09, 27 May 2008 (BST)
#:<s>You also see usefulness in nailguns.  Need I say more?--{{User:DrPain/sig}} 18:24, 27 May 2008 (BST)</s><sub>Non Author RE by [[User:DrPain|DrPain]]</sub>
#::[[User:DrPain|DrPain]], this isn't your suggestion or vote; you don't get to <s>troll</s> comment here in response to other people's votes.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 19:41, 27 May 2008 (BST) 



'''Kill Votes'''
#'''Kill'''Only because it doesn't do any damage. If I am going to spend 10 AP on an action I want it to have an inherent value. (Combat)reviving and making syringes have a pay off right there. This would rely on others. But I do like how you said it was its' own menu. --&ndash; [[User:Nubis|Nubis]] 02:25, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#:It can't do damage for two reasons.  First, if it did damage, it would either need to have a % chance to fail, or it would be an auto-hit attack.  Second, if the damage was enough to be worth considering, it would likely be nearly ass efficient as several attacks plus a drag, making this a shortcut action / speed attack, which are almost unanimously opposed as to powerful due to live combat benefits.  In liue of either of those, it does "rely on others", effcectively creating a variable chance of failure; that's largely the point, and what makes it not overwhelmingly powerful.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 02:49, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#::Not all actions  that do damage have a % to fail. Syringes never have a % to fail and are an auto-hit. And why not give a zombie an attack that balances out with the damage done by a shotgun? Max damage on a zombie attack is 4. A survivor can do 10. Talk about unbalanced.--&ndash; [[User:Nubis|Nubis]] 04:55, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill'''- Two major problems here, the first one, as Nubis points out, is the AP cost, 10 AP means that it will rarely see use, and rightly so, 10 AP to move a character outside without doing any damage, groaning, etc is quite simply horrible. The second problem is that it's a skill, not just that but that it's a ''drag'' skill, Feeding Drag is enough, it's a horrible skill that's only good in a few situations and making a second version of it that will waste more XP and AP helps no one, it would simply serve as a newbie trap because they'll make the false assumption that it's a one shot kill. If the goal is to buff zombies think about reworking groan mechanics to be more horde friendly, think of ways to encourage sleeping indoors or making it easier to coordinate against barricades. All this does is screw people that don't know the game well enough to know it's crap.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 02:34, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#:Yes, its a very niche action, with a high cost that only pays off in limited cases.  I think players are smart enough to figure out those cases and use it beneficially.  Few newbie zombies players buy feeding drag, so why do you figure they would feel compelled to spend XP and AP on this?<br>I'm also interested on you thoughts about feeding groan- how is it not horde friendly?  As that's outside the scope here, maybe you could use my talk page.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 18:02, 27 May 2008 (BST)
#::Feeding groan ''is'' horde friendly but it can be made moreso through any numerous but slight alterations, ways to make it easier to find your fellow horde members, one addition that would be great would simply to make it so that you can hear ''Familiar'' groans through buildings<sub>kinda like how groan worked when it was first added but only for familiar ones</sub>. And swiers, that's just it, I don't think they will be and if you're including a new zombie skill that doesn't give a strong reason to purchase it there's no reason to make that skill at all, there's a reason you don't pay XP for flavor.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 20:18, 27 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - What's the point? You're better off attacking the person and whittling them down from 25 to Feeding Drag them out rather than burning 10 AP to <i>maybe</i> drag them outside. --[[User:Shigogouhou|Shigogouhou]] 07:20, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#:Please re-read the suggestion; you don't burn 10 AP to "<i>maybe</i> drag them outside".  Its clearly stated in the suggestion that failed drags cost 0 AP, and that failure occurs in the same (and only) cases where if does with Feeding Drag.  And yes, "whittling them down from 25 to Feeding Drag them out" would be the better option WHEN POSSIBLE, but say you only have 2 AP left, or you know the barricades are about to bounce back up, or you've decided that ransacking the building FAST before re-enforcements arrive is more important than killing survivors efficiently?  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 07:33, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill'''- Soooo... What is the point of the possibility of the skill failing if there is no penalty for failure? --[[User:BoboKilledMe|<span style="color: DarkGray">BKM</span>]] 08:37, 26 May 2008 (BST) 
#'''No free lunch'''There are, unless I misread, NO AP using abilities/skills that do not spend AP when used, even if they fail.  Should you get your AP back on a failed search?  Your AP is STILL SPENT if you attempted to DNA extract a zombie and they are either already scanned or have moved.  Basically, if you activate a skill/ability that costs AP, the AP is still used regardless of the outcome of the action.  And [[User:Funt Solo|Funt Solo]], I think you missed a point he was trying to make that survivors a way to go into negative AP (syringe manufacture) which effectively gives a survivor character ''19 extra AP'' per day.  Zombies don't have that ability, unless you count the cost of standing, but only Mrh?-Cows would even DO that, so it's moot.--[[User:Pesatyel|Pesatyel]] 10:29, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#:You misread.  "Feeding Drag" currently works EXACTLY in the manner I propose this skill would, as do ALL attacks when directed against a target that is no longer valid (hving moved / died).  DNA scans (and revives) are actually unusual in that regard, and its [[Suggestion:20080515 Scan and Revive tweak- 0 AP for invalid targets|something most people would rather have "fixed".]]  There's also the situation where you try to use an ability that you no longer have access to (because you were killed, for example); that also does not cost any AP.  That is all I'm talking about here; people are blowing that one detail WAY out of scale.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 18:36, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Would be used too rarely to be worthwhile.  --[[User:Explodey|Explodey]] 11:32, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Sounds like an extra unessary complication [[User:Zig13|<span style="color:DodgerBlue">Zig13 - 26/05/2008 at 12:02(BST) </span>]]
#'''Kill''' - As Karek.  I'd be all about some new zombie content, but this ain't it.--[[User:Jiangyingzi|Jiangyingzi]] 15:36, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''kill''' - I do not feel that feeding drag will benefit from this adjustment. [[User:The Mad Axeman|The Mad Axeman]] 15:40, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Feeding Drag allows you clear a building just a little bit faster -- and to attract the attention of ferals to the action, which also helps clear the building faster. Feeding Drag possesses these small but important benefits... it saves a little AP... it helps newbies and ferals level up.. This suggestion has no such merits, you might as well just go for the kill or the normal drag using rather than using this. --[[User:WanYao|WanYao]] 15:46, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - I like this idea very much, but I do think it should either do some damage to the survivor with the current AP cost, or reduce the skill to 5 or 6 AP, but still do no damage.  --{{User:Zombie slay3r/Signature}} 17:41, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Uh, I'm actually just killing this because 10 AP is a ridiculous shit cost to pay for some dumb move. It's too high to be useful. It's like making goddamn syringes. --[[User:Vandurn|Vandurn]] 02:17, 27 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - As Karek. -- {{User:BlackReaper/sig}} 03:09, 27 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Feeding drag is only useful as an ap efficient way to clear a building.  This proposal is not ap efficient in the slightest.--{{User:DrPain/sig}} 05:31, 27 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill'''As anyone above me .. maybe .. karek?  He's usually good at explaining things.--[[Image:Globetrotters_Icon.png|15px|The Malton Globetrotters]] '''[[User:DCC|#99]]'''  <sup>DCC <sup><i>SNACK STRONG</i></sup></sup> 07:01, 27 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Not a bad suggestion, get the AP usage down then maybe we'll talk, although I do believe it should be at least 5 AP.  {{User:BillyClubThorton/signature}} 01:35, 29 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Kill''' - Zombies need new stuff that's good. This isn't very good. - [[User:Grant|Grant]] ([[User talk:Grant|talk]]) 07:44, 29 May 2008 (BST)


'''Spam/Dupe Votes'''
#'''Spam''' - 50AP per day. --<span style="font-size:90%">[[User:Funt Solo|Funt Solo]]</span> <sup style="font-size:70%">[[Mod_Conspiracy|QT]]</sup> [[Image:Scotland flag.JPG|18px]] 09:34, 26 May 2008 (BST) "which effectively gives a survivor character 19 extra AP per day"  Right, first of all: no it doesn't.  (Unless you're suggesting that survivors have an average of 69AP per day, which they don't.)  Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right. If someone suggested that syringe manufacture wasn't allowed to take you into negative AP, then I'd vote Keep on it.  --<span style="font-size:90%">[[User:Funt Solo|Funt Solo]]</span> <sup style="font-size:70%">[[Mod_Conspiracy|QT]]</sup> [[Image:Scotland flag.JPG|18px]] 14:11, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#:I think you'd have to expand that vote to cover performing revives (10 AP cost can take you negative, see [[Suicide-Revive]] and [[DIRT:NAP]] for use) and standing up (up to 16 AP cost, can take you negative, used either as ?rise, or to get a revive or just bullet sponge / allow longer AP recovery).  I use those quite often to go negative, both as a zombie and as part of [[dirtnap]] tactics.  You'd also have to (further) limit basic starting zombie movement, which costs 2 AP, and so can (and often does) take you to -1.<br>Negative AP's aren't a "wrong" that I'm trying to make two of, or even a new thing introduced with (or even primarily used on) syringe manufacture; they have been in the game since day one, and work as one of its basic mechanics.  The do NOT give you any extra AP, but they DO allow you to "borrow" against the next day's worth of AP recovery, which (if used properly) can be an interesting tactical option.  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 18:22, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#::Sideshow tactics of a faulty game engine, in my opinion. It should be 50AP per day, for all players, regardless of known exploits. --<span style="font-size:90%">[[User:Funt Solo|Funt Solo]]</span> <sup style="font-size:70%">[[Mod_Conspiracy|QT]]</sup> [[Image:Scotland flag.JPG|18px]] 19:29, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#Funt nailed it. --{{User:Axe Hack/Sig}} 18:14, 26 May 2008 (BST)
#'''Spam''' - Useless.  Adn why not just rape the survivor and save a few AP and get them closer to death, using normal feeding drag in the end?--[[User:Kolechovski|Kolechovski]] 20:19, 29 May 2008 (BST)
#:Why not use that elegantly phr4ased tactic rather than this proposed ability?  Because, as explained in the suggestion, that may not be possible, but this new option might be.  If you have only a few AP, you can't do enough damage to get a normal drag, but you COULD use this ability.  Or, if there are many active defenders healing your target, you could drag them outside to get a kill.  Whether that's useful or not is arguable (democratic concesus seems no) but that is the intended effect.<br>'''I should point out that the new dark building effects arguably would make this a VERY useful ability, as it may take MORE than 9 AP for a zombie to do 13 points of damage in the dark.  Spending 10 AP to drag a 25 HP survivor out into the light to kill them may actually save AP in that case.  In fact, given these new circumstances, I think I'll re-submit this for voting, perhaps with a slightly lower AP cost.  '''  {{User:Swiers/Sig}} 20:41, 29 May 2008 (BST)
#::I assume this is a general comment so I'll reply in kind. In that case remove it and resubmit it later when people know how drags work with darkness better, leaving it up for voting post update serves no purpose.--<small>[[User:Karek#K|Karek]]<sup><font face="Monotype Corsiva">[[User:Karek/ProjDev/OmegaMap|maps?!]]</font></sup></small> 00:18, 31 May 2008 (BST)