Suggestion talk:20080526 Fighting Drag
0 AP failure
I noticed you made this cost 0 AP for a failed attack. What determines if the attack fails? In other words, is it automatic unless somebody heals them or they move first, or is there some kind of a percentage chance that they will fail? I'm assuming that how ever this works, it's with the same mechanics as feeding drag? --Uncle Bill 01:15, 26 May 2008 (BST)
- Correct, I just wanted to be sure the same mechanics that apply to failed Feeding Drag attempts (or any attack on an invalid target; Feeding Drag is actually an attack) would apply here. So yeah, if they are healed above 25 HP, move away, are dragged away by somebody else, or die, the Fighting Drag would fail (no valid target). Its worth noting that (as written) if they get attacked and reduced to less than 12 HP (but still live), the Fighting Drag does NOT fail (still a valid target) and the cost would still be 10 AP, even though a feeding drag could ideally have done the same thing for 1 AP. Kevan could MAYBE code around it, but it seems unlikely he would, and fairer not to.
Swiers 02:00, 26 May 2008 (BST)
- They would also fail is some one simply closes the door. Since zombies can't seem to open the door from inside.--– Nubis 04:58, 26 May 2008 (BST)
- Yep, that too. Good reason for both to cost 0 AP when failing and have a 100% chance to hit, and a possible advantage to using this one, as you can likely use it sooner, giving people less time to close the door. I'm pretty sure "zombies can open doors from inside" suggestions have been made, and I also know I wrote a suggestion that allowed zombies to drag people out through closed doors and barricades, so I'm not gonna re-cover that ground. Swiers 06:06, 26 May 2008 (BST)
- Yep, that too. Good reason for both to cost 0 AP when failing and have a 100% chance to hit, and a possible advantage to using this one, as you can likely use it sooner, giving people less time to close the door. I'm pretty sure "zombies can open doors from inside" suggestions have been made, and I also know I wrote a suggestion that allowed zombies to drag people out through closed doors and barricades, so I'm not gonna re-cover that ground.
- They would also fail is some one simply closes the door. Since zombies can't seem to open the door from inside.--– Nubis 04:58, 26 May 2008 (BST)
Original Talk:Suggestions Discussion
Fighting Drag
| Timestamp: |  Swiers 06:00, 22 May 2008 (BST)
|
| Type: | Skill |
| Scope: | Zombies |
| Description: | New Zombie Skill. Requires "Feeding Drag". "Fighting Drag" would allow "Feeding Drag" to be used on survivors who have up to 25 HP. However, if they have more than 13 HP, the cost to make the Drag would be 10 AP, instead of 1 AP, as they must struggle so much with the survivor. The main purpose of this would be to allow zombies to go into negative AP's, the same way survivors can when manufacturing syringes and reviving people. (and yes, the later in particular IS a useful ability.) I expect the major game balance impact would be to allow greater co-operation among feral zombies, by letting them "borrow" against future APs to drag a single survivor that they might otherwise not get to drag. Organized zombies (who generally breach barricades on a daily basis) would not benefit much (if at all) from this skill. If not used to go into negative AP, the skill would actually be fairly pointless, as zombies can generally take a survivor from 25 to less than 13 HP in 9 AP or less, which means they can use the same number of AP to both inflict some damage AND get the drag. |
Discussion (Fighting Drag)
I think 10 ap is a bit much. I can kill a 25hp survivor in 10 ap on a good day. The awesomeness of feeding drag is being able to take a survivor out of the equation for less ap than it would take to kill them, allowing for the building to be ruined that much faster. Feeding drag + re-entry + ruin = 8ap.--
#19 - DrPain TMG 06:52, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- Considering the zombie would be pulling a person with 25HP (like someone freshly revived) out of the safety of a building into the waiting maw newbie zombies outside, 10 AP is not 'a bit much'. And DrPain is showing he doesn't know a whole lot about the reason for Feeding Drag. It's not to benefit the dragger zombie, it's to benefit the zombies still trapped outside wanting to get in, sending fresh meat outside. Sadly, I actually think this is a good idea despite being really bad news for survivors because it encourages teamwork among zombies, and helps lower level zombies get to the 'weaker' survivors. Groups like Feral Undead would probably get a lot of use out of this, since the higher level zombies try to help feed their newer, lower member brethren this way. I'm a bit nervous about it severely frustrating survivors who just get revived and into a safehouse only to be dragged outside again before soemone can heal them back up. Maybe it could be 20HP/24HP or less to prevent that. --Tselita 07:27, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- Way to demonstrate your own misunderstanding of drag. If zombies are trapped outside (barricade) then one cannot use drag. I've never dragged someone to feed them to someone else, I've only used it to save myself AP.--
#19 - DrPain TMG 07:30, 22 May 2008 (BST) - Dr Pain is right. You can't drag someone out if the doors are closed or higher. The main reason zombies drag people outside is so they can ruin the building faster. If older zombies can get in and attack survivors then the younger zombies can, too.
- 10 AP is a bit much especially if you come to this figure by comparing it to manufacturing syringes/using syringes. Syringes never fail. Feeding drag isn't a kill. It actually does no damage whatsoever. If you drag a survivor that is online all you do is waste your AP as he simply pops back in unharmed even if they have rebarricaded a bit while he was outside.
- While it would be nice to be able to remove survivors with more health 10 AP isn't worth the 12 more HP. Unless it can do damage while you drag - maybe 5 HP or so. Maybe if they have 18 HP you can drag them for 2 AP and do 5 HP damage. Even that sucks but it's an idea to build on.
- It would be nice to have a "1 time" attack that does more damage. --– Nubis 09:02, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- I'll elaborate on what I was saying. Using feeding drag helps zombies trapped outside who were not online when the doors were open before the survivors shut them or rebarracade, thus missing their window of opportunity to get inside to eat. It gives those zombies outside (usually newbies who don't have MoL) a chance to eat some survivors. --Tselita 11:30, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- If your zombie horde has the "strategy" where the young zombies stay outside and the older zombies go in and drag food out to them, then I can see why hordes weren't scary until The Dead. If you can drag a survivor OUT then a zombie can get IN. You can't drag a survivor out if the door is closed. --– Nubis 21:53, 24 May 2008 (BST)
- Not every horde has a flood of members that ensures 30+ can show up for a strike. Dragging survivors allows you to, in effect, allows people who don;t show up while the cades are open to spend AP attacking survivors. If consistently used on survivors when they are at 10+ HP, its a good stratedgy, whether the purpose is to feed younger members of the horde (who obviously DO enter if able to) or just recruit feral help. A bunch of wounded survivors on the sidewalk is a GREAT way to draw a crowd of zombies. Swiers 07:08, 25 May 2008 (BST)
- Not every horde has a flood of members that ensures 30+ can show up for a strike. Dragging survivors allows you to, in effect, allows people who don;t show up while the cades are open to spend AP attacking survivors. If consistently used on survivors when they are at 10+ HP, its a good stratedgy, whether the purpose is to feed younger members of the horde (who obviously DO enter if able to) or just recruit feral help. A bunch of wounded survivors on the sidewalk is a GREAT way to draw a crowd of zombies.
- If your zombie horde has the "strategy" where the young zombies stay outside and the older zombies go in and drag food out to them, then I can see why hordes weren't scary until The Dead. If you can drag a survivor OUT then a zombie can get IN. You can't drag a survivor out if the door is closed. --– Nubis 21:53, 24 May 2008 (BST)
- I'll elaborate on what I was saying. Using feeding drag helps zombies trapped outside who were not online when the doors were open before the survivors shut them or rebarracade, thus missing their window of opportunity to get inside to eat. It gives those zombies outside (usually newbies who don't have MoL) a chance to eat some survivors. --Tselita 11:30, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- Way to demonstrate your own misunderstanding of drag. If zombies are trapped outside (barricade) then one cannot use drag. I've never dragged someone to feed them to someone else, I've only used it to save myself AP.--
Feeding drag can be used in the way DrPain describes, but it is also good for getting a "kill by paroxy". A survivor who is off line cannot deffend themselves, of course, but if someone else rebarricades to keep out other zombies and you don't have enough to finnish the job, then they are safe for the mean time. But if you drag them outside, into the hands of the waiting zombies, that humans chances of surviving plumet. Unless they log on again before any of the n zombies waiting outside, they are dead, and you've scored a kill by paroxy.
As to how it should be used, well thats up to the individual zombie to decide upon which tactics they like best.
For myself, I don't think Feeding drag needs a buff. In a large seige, it effectively reduces the AP required to kill the deffenders simply by moving them into a position where death is near certain regardless of survivor actions. Increasing the threshold at which zombies can use feeding drag would give to large an advantage to the zombies in seiges. The Mad Axeman 11:24, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- it effectively reduces the AP required to kill the deffenders simply by moving them into a position where death is near certain regardless of survivor actions. -- No, it doesn't. If they are dragged outside it doesn't magically make zombie attacks do 2X damage or some nonsense. Reading what you guys think zombie "sieges" should be like seriously makes me think that some of the zombie groups don't know what they are doing. --– Nubis 21:53, 24 May 2008 (BST)
- I ment from the point of view of the zombie doing the dragging, because it means that they don't have to rip away those last few hps. Actually, even from the other zombies stand point it has the potential to reduce the ap required to kill, because it means there is no possibility of having to tear through barricades to finish the job at a later date unless that survivor has the extreme good fortune to log on before any of the zombies. The Mad Axeman 11:29, 25 May 2008 (BST)
Where the balance? Can we kick Zs that are half health out of a building for 10 ap? gabdewulf 12:58, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- Sure can. Garum 13:13, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- Gabdewulf kicking Z's that are half out of health, or even in full health for 10 AP... yeah... it's called a combat revive. --Tselita 19:43, 23 May 2008 (BST)
No, combat revives only introduce pkers. This is overpowered.gabdewulf 16:31, 25 May 2008 (BST)
Feeding Drag is great for both purposes, just depends on the circumstances! As for this suggestion 25HP is just too much. Maybe if there was a chance to fight back, something like a free attack by the survivor with a 2% chance per remaining HP to cause 3damage and break free? Setting the max HP to 20 instead of 25 would give a survivor a max of 40% to escape thus giving some sort of balance... Who knows, maybe a survivor skill "desperate struggle" could allow a chance to escape normal drag too. Not perfect but at least brings some risk and balance.--Honestmistake 14:00, 22 May 2008 (BST)
Dr Pain- you are right, normally feeding drag is (among other things) an AP efficient way to clear a building. However, this gives it a NEW use, that of being an rather AP costly way to clear a building, but that AP cost can be used to "go negative", effectively boosting the AP you can spend in one day, at the expense of how many you can spend the next day. If you are a member of the Dead or some other major horde, this (as the suggestion text states) probably doesn't benefit you any, but it WOULD benefit feral zombies, or zombies who work with groups that do not co-ordinate their strikes beyonddeclaring a target zone / using feeding groan.
Honestmistake- for 10 AP, a zombie could make 9 attacks (doing ~15.3 expected damage with maxed claws), allowing it do spend the last AP to drag that 25 HP (now a 10 HP) survivor outside. Granted, as I point out above this DOES have a use that goes beyond efficiency, but that benefit comes at the cost of the survivor NOT being reduced to 10 HP, and instead having 25HP, which greatly increases thier chance of surviving the unwilling trip outside.
Gabdewulf|- Can we kick Zs that are half health out of a building for 10 ap? Um, yeah, pretty easily. It's not that hard to do 30 damage in 9 AP, and then dump the body. However, the true parity comes not in combat, but in survivor DEFENSE and RECOVERY. Survivors have (by far) the AP edge when it comes to defending themselves and recovering from the damage zombies do (reviving a survivor costs much less AP than killing one); zombies counter that with a strong offense which, IMO, should be a bit stronger, or at least (as this would allow) a bit more flexible.
Overall, it looks like some people say its overpowered, and others say its to weak to be worth the effort. I think that shows its balanced, but also unlikely to get accepted. :P Swiers 21:15, 22 May 2008 (BST)
- The only problem I see with this one is the fact that it could be used (a little too easily) on freshly revived survivors. Then again, if you lower the HP too much it takes away the advantage of using this skill instead of the other one. Then again, who's to say a freshly respawned survivor couldn't just avoid this problem alltogether by just slapping themselves with a FAK as soon as they get revived? Tactics, like all things, must change and adapt. I'm rambling on now, but I think I'd probably vote for this. --Uncle Bill 18:47, 23 May 2008 (BST)
I would vote keep. Your reasons are valid, and it is weak enough to be fair, but strong enough to be worthwhile. --BoboTalkClown 03:08, 24 May 2008 (BST)
Against a non-damaging Fighting Drag
Here's why Feeding Drag and by extension Fighting Drag are bad: What happens if a zombie drags someone out at 10 AP, the survivors inside recade (as simple as closing the door), and the human they dragged out uses 1 AP to get back inside? Now the zombie is down 10 AP, didn't do any additional damage, AND STILL has to go through the barricades again. If the zombie stays inside it has a slight chance of stopping the recading chances. Once it leaves the only failures to cade are the normal ones.
So unless a zombie is with a horde trying to clear a building to ruin there is no reason to drag a survivor out.
If there was a chance to do a considerable amount of damage during the action then it might be worth the AP usage. For instance, dragging out an infected survivor might almost be worth it. If you do damage to them. It will remove them from the room stopping them from recading, it will remove them from the other survivors that could heal them. If you could get a kill (not saying it should do 25 or 13 HP of course,) with that action it would be worth the AP and loss of interference. --– Nubis 05:24, 26 May 2008 (BST)
Yes, there are (many) times using this (or the normal feeding drag) is not a the best choice. Its intentionally a niche action. There's a few times I think it WOULD be handy: - As you say, when the priority is clearing buildings. Potentially very useful for mall seiges; ransacking one corner often causes the mall to fall.
- For a lone zombie who breaks into a building with little or no support and finds many survivors inside; there is little purpose (aside from bullet sponging) to stay inside that building.
- For a zombie who manages to kill one survivor and knock another down to just under 25 HP, then runs to low on AP to get them under 12 and do a drag.
- For dragging recently revived survivors (or wounded ones) while facing active survivor resistance; they often heal people just as they get under 25 HP, costing zombies MUCH more than 10 AP worth of work.
- Swiers 00:14, 27 May 2008 (BST)
- *For a lone zombie who breaks into a building with little or no support and finds many survivors inside; there is little purpose (aside from bullet sponging) to stay inside that building. Actually, if a zombie breaks into a building he has many reasons to stay in that building. He stays because of the % to block rebarricading. If he moans while inside the building approaching zombies will be more likely to come over rather than if they see him and one seriously wounded survivor (the thinking is more targets - more chances for their own kills). Some survivors aren't always paying attention and might not notice the zombie right away when they log in. If he is killed and clicks stand up before they dump him they have to waste AP and kill him again. If he leaves he has to waste AP and hit the cades again.
- Your last scenario is the best reason NOT to drag them out. If the survivor is active when you leave they lose the blocking you cause by being inside. You drag someone out. They recade. The survivor free runs back in. Now you are completely screwed. If you stay in there and infect them they have to waste FAKS and APs healing rather than cading.
- If your zombie is afraid to die you are playing it wrong. --– Nubis 02:36, 27 May 2008 (BST
I'd vote kill as is, as it manages to be useless while still serving as fodder for survivor fans to 1. bitch and moan about zombie buffs or 2. point smugly to the zombie buffs as a legitimate reason to propose retarded survivor ideas. Let's see some legitimate improvements. --Eizenfaust 19:44, 30 May 2008 (BST)
