Talk:Anti-Zerg Measure

What I/We know

1. That IF you have an Alt while using a proxy, the anti-zerg system doesn't work if you use a different IP for each character.
   
2. That even if you don't use a proxy, as long as the alts don't share the same resting space at a system check point (usually at reset) the alts won't be locked out.
   
3. That the using Alts to heal other characters lockout doesn't stop you as long as you don't have an alt (with the same IP) in the same room OR haven't tried to heal the same character with another using the same IP.
   
4. That none of the lockouts that affect hit percentages affect Zombie-Zergs after a small interval between attacks.
   

Suggestions

Uh...it might not be a great idea to publicise detailed information about zerg countermeasures; the measures are perhaps more effective if the details of how they work is not known to the zergers. Knowledge is power and all that. --Toejam 01:04, 2 September 2008 (BST)

Those who are intent on cheating will find a way to do it with this information public or not... Its time we bloody did something about it. Conndraka^{mod TAZM CFT} 02:41, 2 September 2008 (BST)

Well, here's how it's done in Nexus War - each person has an account, and that account has tied to it, several characters (3 by default, though you can purchase more through donation up to an unlimited amount). This, combined with EXTENSIVE scripting to detect multi-abuse, means it's nigh on impossible for you to use those characters to zerg. There are limitations of course - if you attack a person with one character it starts a timer which means any further interactions (attacking, healing etc) results in an automatic failure before the end of that timer. The scripts to detect this stuff are really tight, almost infallible, and they extend beyond just attacking and healing. There is no way to stop someone using one character to scout a target and another to then attack them, but that's pretty much unavoidable.

Using two accounts from the same computer results in you getting banned from both accounts and the game in its entirety. Jorm also *personally* investigates such matters occasionally I believe, to track suspicious activities across multiple accounts. There is still however, unfortunately no way to deal with the use of 3rd party proxy servers... I think. That being said, I bet there's some way to detect the use of these things, and completely block them from access to the UD server. Maybe? Anyone? I'm by no means an expert. Ezekiel UK 09:37, 2 September 2008 (BST)

It's very easy to find out how to cheat, or least work around, UD's algorithms... With or without proxies. Also, there are lists of proxies -- but they might cost $$$ to buy and to keep updated. Somewhere on the Beeehah.com forums there is actually a discussion about getting people together to do something about this, and to approach Kevan with solutions as opposed to just identifying the problem. I believe Murray J spearheaded it. With the idea of how to make it as easy as possible for Kevan to do... But, once Finis disappeared, interest in some quarters sagged. However, there are still people who want to address this. Obviously. --WanYao 09:49, 2 September 2008 (BST)

It's sad that the absence of Finis sees a lapse in will to do something about this in some quarters. Whatever you need, just let me know and I will do what I can. I'll admit that at present I have no ideas beyond petitioning Kevan though. --Papa Moloch 19:14, 2 September 2008 (BST)

So what you are saying is if we can draft some codemonkey to come up with something that Kevan could implement easy...hmmmm I don't know anything about Code (obviously) but I wonder if somebody started with some kind of pluggin/app that could then be incorporated onto the server as a stand alone program that ran in the background as opposed to something that was integrally connected with UD? Is that possible? Conndraka mod TAZM CFT 03:09, 3 September 2008 (BST)

In theory the best anti-zerg measures are like, scripts run across the server to detect suspicious activity. Thing is the worst cheaters are the ones using proxies to bypass the IP limit. I think this is one of the roots of the problem - in Nexus War, you can log in as much as you want, but because you're limited to a specific number of characters on your account there is no need for a 160 hit IP limit. Then it's just a case of ensuring someone isn't using more than one account. The IP limit encourages people to play the game on a proxy, which in turn enables them to use as many characters as they want, which in turn gives them the idea of mass zerging. My only fear is that stronger built in anti zerg measures (the ol 0% to hit lark, or 'you attempt to heal xyz but fail') might not be possible without a rewrite of the core foundation of the game, plus I'm guessing that Kevan has moved onto other things and is only really interested in the odd adjustment to make sure people don't quit the game. Ezekiel UK 13:02, 4 September 2008 (BST)

If you look at my Talk page, you'll see selections from a thread created on beerhah.com to address the zerging issue, specifically the use of open proxies. The solution is very simply to ban them. And there are lists. I even think a proxy list has been compiled by the wiki's sysops to ban sockpuppets: that would be a start...

I know some people are going to whine about not being able to play from work, or school, or whatever. Well... Tough... You shouldn'r be logging on from work, if the site is banned, anyhoo, sillies! :P The relatively small number of people this will affect, versus the negative effect zerging has on the game is IMNSHO worth it. --WanYao 15:03, 5 September 2008 (BST)

While I agree that the zerging issue is a thorny one, I would like to ask for at least some small consideration for people who enjoy playing together and live in the same house? Some of us are careful to keep from tripping the existing flags and not do anything that would violate the consensual rules, but do wind up in the same building because we like interacting with each other. Under some of the more draconian things proposed above, given that "account" seems to equal ISP, that would kill parts of the game for people like us. --Queen Mum 20:57, 5 September 2008 (BST)

Thats part of the issue Queen Mum... At one point a Very large part of the Group I was a part of all played off of the University server. Our beloved little school of 5800 students shared a single IP addy. So needless to say to do anything at all we had to pay for accounts and then we learned the hard way the issues of working together. So yea... Buggers 23:14, 5 September 2008 (BST)

People playing out of the same home or off a university server would have to donate to deal with the IP hit issue. Unfortunately. And, while it's sad that you can't interact with each other if you're playing off the same computer or school proxy server (which is not an open proxy, such as a web-proxy, as far am i am aware), I'm not sure what could be done about that. I'm really not... The thing is, you might consider these measures "draconian", but zerging is a very serious problem in UD. So you're left with a choice: a) allow zerging and cheating to go on unabated, and effectively say "screw you" to everyone who plays honestly; or b) ban open proxies and get rid of the overwhelming majority of the zerging problem in one fell swoop, even if it hurts a (minority) segment of the player base... Call me a "tyrant" if you will, but I personally opt for the latter. Unless someone can come up with another way, which is actually going to be easy to implement and make work, I don't what other choices there are. --WanYao 14:07, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Actually, my housemate and I have donated well above and beyond the required because we enjoy the game. Seems to have worked thus far. Believe me, I have no love of zergers, having been specifically targeted for a month by a set of them. I'm not unaware of the Finis problem, the history with the Stallonebots, etctera. I've been at this a while.

I would just prefer that any of the sweeping measures target these proxy services, rather than just penalizing for having the same ISP any more than is already in place. If donation would nullify "Using two accounts from the same computer results in you getting banned from both accounts and the game in its entirety" I'm set. I suppose it's too late to restructure so that an activation code would be sent to a valid email address and must be used? --Queen Mum 21:54, 6 September 2008 (BST)

Any measures need to talk into account that people that live together do like to play together. My wife and I both play Urban Dead. Many housemates do to. As whether my wife and I use the same computer, pay for our IP hits, or use different computers, we are still using the same router, and therefore IP address, that means that even tho' two different players are using different characters, we are still hit by the current anti-zerg rules. We deal with that with care, and limit the amount of in-game interaction (talking) we have. Now, is zerging really such a big issue that we need more measures? Given the vocal minority of players that meta game, opposed to the vast majority of registered players who never belong to a forum or the Wiki, is this just being blown out of proportion? Honest question. --Turner Calton 01:36, 8 September 2008 (BST)

The answer is a resounding yes. There have been a number of Players and in some cases even a number of groups (Both Zed and Survivor) who have run up a RIDICULOUS number of Alts. Acounting for not nearly a majority, these Zergers do routinely affect game play, balance, and activities for the vast majority of players who don't. And even within the meta-game community there is a significant amount of time and effort put into taking out these folks. Conndraka^{mod TAZM CFT} 04:59, 8 September 2008 (BST)

As an addendum to Conndraka's answer- I would point out that various groups with waning activity have been said to ask for the inactive player log-in information so they can call upon these inactive characters at any point to swing something their way. If you think about it, a group only housing 20 actual actives can accomplish the sacking of a mall if they have a stable of 30+ inactive profiles they can use with the help of proxies to avoid IP limits.

That coupled with obvious shortcomings in the area of hit penalties for zombies makes it very attractive for a zombie group to just create or use a bunch of different profiles per active player to spam into barricades.

One last issue i would like to bring up along the lines of zerging... Has anybody ever experienced a break-in in which the cades fell, then each person in the safehouse was killed by a different zombie, and when all was said and done, no zombies remained? I've experienced it twice. Whether it's coding or just dedicated zerging, it has to stop. I've let my revivifying body lay on the pavement for extended periods of time twice because i've been fed up with the obvious cheating and nothing done or implemented to stop it. This has to stop.--Bulldog C6 08:26, 8 September 2008 (BST)

I have only a couple mins to respond, so apologies for terseness. Yes, zerging is bad. No, this doesn't impact people who play together any more than current system -- unless you're using proxies to play. And, the example given by bulldog could very well be zerging -- but it could also have been a highly coordinated strike team, MOB for instance. Don't jump the gun in zerg allegations... That being said, yeah, there are groups who activate idled accounts and play them apparently with proxies in the event of a threat to their "territory". It sucks ass, I'm dealing with one such group right now... Ah well... TTYL, keep on playing fair! --WanYao 22:12, 10 September 2008 (BST)

Deletion???

Umm Why does this have the template yet is not on the deletions page? Conndraka^{mod TAZM CFT} 03:32, 5 August 2009 (BST)

Because I don't have magical bloody powers. Gimme a few minutes. --  RoosterDragon  03:41, 5 August 2009 (BST)

Removed, bloomin' redirect slipped past me. --  RoosterDragon  03:54, 5 August 2009 (BST)