Talk:Zeliak Defense Force

From The Urban Dead Wiki
Jump to navigationJump to search

Current Events and Mission Planning

May 12, 2008

How is everyone doing? Any idea when Kevan will transfer us back to Malton or allow necro tech in Monroeville?:--Pvt_Roads 12:52, 12 May 2008 (BST)

I am still here. 

Tom --J. inman 01:01, 29 May 2008 (BST)

April 23, 2008

MonroeJimhoff is no more. It was fun running around the station with you guys and it was fun being a zombie for a bit, but my only hope now is if my body gets shipped to Malton. Is anyone else still around? Jimhoff 01:03, 24 April 2008 (BST)

Me and roads are still hanging around, Skull sticking with us for now.--J. inman 04:58, 24 April 2008 (BST)
We seem to have lost some people en route to Urban General, Oak Hill...namely Skull. He said he didn't know the way. Guess they didn't use the map link.....

If any of you guys need this the map link is here: http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/User:Duke_Garland

(Maps on the right side of the web page). We'll be hunting the woods for zeds near the hospital. Let's hope the other guys get here....Pvt_Roads 13:13, 24 April 2008 (BST)

Could use a bit more info like the coordinates...--J. inman 15:51, 24 April 2008 (BST)
Bad news I got player killed by this guy in the hospital (320,30):

His name is Psycho CPA http://www.urbandead.com/profile.cgi?id=1201489

He even had the cheek to say "Ha, found you filthy player killer.."

Well, thats it I guess guys.... ....Pvt_Roads 23:33, 24 April 2008 (BST)

Oh well, I'm heading back.

--J. inman 17:02, 25 April 2008 (BST)

April 17, 2008

Well, I logged on today and it looks like I was killed by joey wilkins id=1201431. Currently in West Monroeville. I managed to save 600 exp so hopefully I'll be able to live a while as a zombie. MonroeJimhoff-Jimhoff 19:20, 17 April 2008 (BST)

Holy hell that sucks dude, well you shall be missed--J. inman 01:08, 18 April 2008 (BST)
Eh, life as a zombie isn't so bad. I found a nice little building that I can hide in during the day and at night I've gone out to bust barricades and kill other zombies.Jimhoff 17:25, 19 April 2008 (BST)

April 13, 2008

Currently in Griffith Road Police Department in Oak Town. Send a radio message on 29.00, but no reply yet. Scouted around and saw few zombies in this section of Oak Town. Three other people in the PD with me. How is Zeliak handling? I'm thinking of headed back that way after bit more time out west. So far I've only seen one zombie, in the middle of a field, that I was able to bring to 5 hps before I had to retreat or risk being stranded outside. I hope someone finishes him off. I spent some time the past two days looking in the buildings around where Jmboo died. No sign of Ill shoot u. Hopefully he is a zombie by now. Over and out. Jimhoff 03:25, 13 April 2008 (BST)

Hey, Things at Zeliak are real peachy to be honest, no one speaks and people just go along in there business. Its kinda odd to be honest. And I just though everyone had left honestly, just searched and found two other members.--J. inman 17:31, 13 April 2008 (BST)

April 10, 2008

Well, I'm dead. Some asswipe PKer named ill shoot u (id=1203776) killed me in the Shirley Alley Fire Station right on the Oak Hill / West Monroeville border. If any of you guys see him, please put a bullet in his head for me. Thanks!--Jmboo 04:51, 11 April 2008 (BST)

Sorry to hear that! I hope you enjoy your life as a zombie. I'm still headed to Oak Hill, I'm on the border hiding out in a mall. I might try to search for this Ill shoot guy. Where were you shot? I've got a good amount of ammo, i'll go looking.Jimhoff 06:47, 11 April 2008 (BST)
Shirley Alley Fire Station [339,25] on the Oak Hill map. It's on block inside Oak Hill from West M'ville. I was just saving a few AP there so I could cross the woods to get to the Griffith PD. So much for that idea. Totally kill this douche if you can. With a name like "ill shoot you" it seems pretty obvious this guy is nothing but a PKer. I was going after him myself, but to add insult to injury, I just got headshot too. Well, I guess PKing is the wave of the future for Monroeville. Last thing I can offer is some info about the Monroeville Mall. I checked it out, but it is sealed up tight, no entry points. So don't get caught outside there if you go for a visit. Good luck.--Jmboo 16:57, 11 April 2008 (BST)
As more and more of this group dies, should we try to have something banged together in Malton? Jimhoff 18:11, 11 April 2008 (BST)
Wow we are getting pwned it seems, it seems you and I are the only ZDF left Jim, figures the first two people, creator and first member, are the last ones left alive huh?--J. inman 01:35, 13 April 2008 (BST)
Bummer. There were 12 guys who ad the ZDF tag at one point. What happened to all the others at Zeliak? PK'ed? Anyway, my Malton character is called jmbo id=1055515 and I'm holed up in Vinetown right now in and around Mitchum Mall. I think Monroeville would have been better if you didnt die permanently, but lost all skills instead. Cause getting PK'ed in your sleep sux. Over and out.--Jmboo 16:47, 13 April 2008 (BST)

April 9, 2008

Headed to Oak Hill. Statying at Parke Cresent PD for the night, seems safe. Plus its near Drummond Mall if you need supplies. West Monroeville is quiet.--Jmboo 20:55, 9 April 2008 (BST)

I'll be the last to leave Zeliak Way, call it sentimental reasons, I spawned right outside of the PD the first day, and stuck there. Report when all members have left, and I will follow the last out.--J. inman 21:47, 9 April 2008 (BST)

Looked at the Oak Hill wikipage. Looks like radios are hard to come by in that area. Might want to bring one to set up. I'll try to look for one.Jimhoff 02:26, 10 April 2008 (BST)
I'll look for one at our local fire departments--J. inman 02:55, 10 April 2008 (BST)

April 8, 2008

I haven't seen John Hyder, Romanymagic, or Sgt. Strangelove lately. Anyone know if they are OK?--Jmboo 01:19, 9 April 2008 (BST)

The mall isn't worth it. I bought a generator and a spray can. I'm seeing if they have any more here, as it's the best place to find them. I'm thinking Oak Hill is the best place.Jimhoff 04:32, 9 April 2008 (BST)
I haven't seen them either, oh and for other member's sake, please post in the main group page that you have officially join ZDF, just so we know who's who. And I have some misgivings about sleeping in a mall, just don't sit right to me, so we are gonna need a nondescript building to call our base. Well hell, simo-post, Jim if yah can grab a empty building and claim squatter's rights to it, so we have a definite place to travel to.--J. inman 04:36, 9 April 2008 (BST)
I have another char and scouted oak hill. A few zombies in the forest (i didn't go very deep in there) and a few in the fields in the north and central west part. There's plenty of ruined buildings on the borders of the field/forest. Looks like plenty of zombies are hiding far in there, far enough that it takes some AP to get to them. I suggest we find a building over in Oakhill (say Griffith Road Police Dept as seen [here http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Oak_Hill/Map]). GRPD is close to another station and two hospitals and close to the central forests+fields. The buildings around it are barricaded, a few EHB and powered.Jimhoff 04:44, 9 April 2008 (BST)
Griffth looks good on the map to me. If you say it's good I believe since you have boots on the ground. You're lucky MJ, my alt got killed early. I hope the other members will check in too. I've been directing folks to check for updates periodically. I hope everyone who wants to go to Oak Hill gets all the relocation details so we can get a good group for the trip.--Jmboo 06:39, 9 April 2008 (BST)

April 7, 2008

Well it seems without Zombies to kill people are beginning to lose it, as of now I am ordering those without a flak jacket to go to their profile, make sure you can find one, and get one. Keep a close watch people and report your actions, earlier today I searched around for any wandering zombies with no luck.

I now propose to migrate to areas with a higher zombie count, so we dont all lose our minds. Or maybe I am losing mine, hmmm someone tell me their thoughts.--J. inman 02:10, 8 April 2008 (BST)

MonroeJimhoff, MarcoPolo and I have all recently ventured across the border into Central Monroeville to patrol. I can't speak for the others, but over the last 2-3 days I have patrolled around a 20x20 block area and have only come across 2 zombies, killing one. I am beginning to agree that if we are going to hunt zombies, we will have to travel someplace else to do it. The radio chatter indicates that zombies have been seen aound Spaulding Mall, some fire stations near that mall, Monroeville Mall, and Oak Hill. One report said many zeds are hiding in the forest in Oak Hill which makes a certain amount of sense. I figured we would have to leave eventually, though I thought it would be because we would swarmed at somepoint. But the zeds have gotten very shy since headshot became permanent. So I'm up for moving, even though it means abandoning the very safe Zeliak PD as long as no one who wants to come gets left behind. Maybe we can rally everyone there in the next day or so and pick a place to go to. I'll be back to Zeliak PD tonight. --Jmboo 03:06, 8 April 2008 (BST)
I say we head to Spalding Mall, it's at 357, 68, so that means it's 18 west and 14 down from us right now. I'm not sure the best route, but i was recently looking for zombies as far west as the Stieler Lane PD, and it looked pretty safe and well barricaded. Plus there's tons of PDs in the area. From there, we could go southwest to Offutt Crescent PD and from there Porter Place PD. Porter Place PD is right next to the mall and according to the Wikipage there's 83 survivors in there now. The migration would take four days if we play it safe, more if we gun it. What do ya'll think? Jimhoff 06:56, 8 April 2008 (BST)
Spaulding Mall works for me. We can always head north to Oak Hill from there if there's no action at the mall. We can get to Spaulding in 19 moves free running, it's not that far -- less than half a day's AP. We just need to get the word out that's where the ZDF will be. By my count we have 11 active members -- not bad -- so we should make sure everyone knows about any move and to check the wiki news.--Jmboo 19:05, 8 April 2008 (BST)
For some reason I forgot we could move on the diagonal. I'm over at the mall now and just bought bargain, having great time filling up on ammo. There's very few zombies around here. I walked on the street the entire way here and saw nothing. Most buildings are lit. Strong survivor presence. Jimhoff 21:22, 8 April 2008 (BST)
Wow, 11 people, thats more that I expected when I started this up. My one worry about migrating is the PKers, as people are being more driven to murder. Also I am not pleased that nobody told me or posted here that y'all were out scouting, I was wanting to go as well :P.
But seriously, I want people to keep an eye out on the frequency of PKs now. Mainly because its our biggest threat now, due to the zombies becoming cowards. Yah hear that rotters, get mad and start attacking again so we can kill you!--J. inman 00:18, 9 April 2008 (BST)
Well, I did post about the excursion to Central Monroeville before we left. Marcopolo1234 is still up there as far as I know, I hope he checks in soon. Based on MJ's scouting report on Spaulding Mall and its lack of of zeds I'm wondering if we should head there to stay or head straight to Oak Hill -- everyone on the radio says that's where the zeds are. I'm not too worried about PKing yet, most survivors are abandoned characters, they're never coming back back. See my post below on PKing below. I'll start to worry when I hear about PKers going after upper level players.--Jmboo 01:14, 9 April 2008 (BST)

April 6, 2008

While in Gastineau Boulevard PD I witnessed a murder. Name of X1984, ID is 1149916Jimhoff 15:36, 6 April 2008 (BST)

Yeah I saw it too. Definitlely someone to watch out for. PKing is a double edged threat because not only do PKer's kill survivors, the zombies they create are also more likley to embrace being zombies and kill survivors as well since there's no coming back once you're a zombie. Don't know if I will be sticking around Gastineau PD too long under these conditions.--Jmboo 18:22, 6 April 2008 (BST)


April 5, 2008

While on patrol I confrimed Derris' body is at the Worsham PD. It's a little strange since there really hasn't been any zombie activity to the south lately according to reports, but I have seen quite a few zombies there in the past. It looks liekly that Derris was killed in the PD by either a zombie or a PKer then dumped outside. It seems less likely that Derris just lost a fight or got attacked right outside a well barricaded PD and died there. You have to wonder whether Worsham PD has a PKer problem. Whether a zombie or Pker got Derris though, I would think twice about sleeping at Worsham PD.--Jmboo 06:11, 5 April 2008 (BST)

I've crossed into Central Monroeville. Found a zombie in a ruined building. Not sure how many zombies are up this way, but I did see two ruined buildings. Most of the buildings are EHBJimhoff 23:10, 5 April 2008 (BST)

April 4, 2008

The Zelaik area is secure. Members are patrolling and calling for headshots if needed. Soon we should all have headshot. Membership by my count is at least around a dozen survivors. I'm sad to report, however, I found Derris K R's body outside one of the PD's to the south. I propose that all members increase recuiting efforts. I would also like to float the idea of a field trip to the Monroeville Mall or even Oak Hill as it sounds like there are more zeds there than the survivors can handle. Comments, suggestions, volunteers?--Jmboo 17:08, 4 April 2008 (BST)

I've been ten blocks south or so for the past few days. Killed a few zombies and barricaded a few open buildings. I just heard on the news that there are 15 or so zombies north of the Zeliak PD. I'll be headed back that way soon, hopefully tomorrow.Jimhoff 21:22, 4 April 2008 (BST)
Sounds like a plan. I'll head north tommorrow too. Gastineau PD seems like a good rally point. If that PD is safe I may spend the night there and maybe we can coordinate further if there's enough zeds to demand concerted action.--Jmboo 03:18, 5 April 2008 (BST)

General Group Discussion

Group Organization and Policies

Monroe Jimhoff here with a few ideas about defending our section of Monroeville.

The police department, three hospitals, and fire station are the most important buildings in the area. I suggest that for now we keep all the buildings at very strongly barricaded to insure that people can come in and out. The Cuthbert General Hospital should be kept at Extremely barricaded to insure an ultra secure place to rest. As there will be two other hospitals that non-freerunners can get into this shouldn't pose much of a problem.

Also, I think we need to establish a radio frequency for our area/group. The 28.01 is fine, but it can get rather spammy; it seems like its the one that everyone is using. With out own frequency we can keep in touch with people around us.

Once I get diagnosis (40 exp away) I'm planning to grab some spray cans and tag the place with this information. Any comments? Jimhoff 18:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This is Jenkins here, I am currently building our cade level to EHB, the Dutchers Building will serve as a unbarricaded entry point to the area incase the hospitals are over caded.

Derris K R here, the whole idea buddies is maybe not to be part of the same group unless u really wana be, but stick together til the end. My Character is named Derris K R and in the original UD I'm Andrew P R, my characters have a backgroudn story together andm y group tag is jsut osmething I made up to go along with it and anybody curious as to itsm eaning. BUT anyways thats not important, whats important is we start creating jobs for those willing to scout, guard barricades, and heal, I have two levels ofh ealing now and almost all the combats so I can be anything but i'd like to be a strategist. We stay in Zeliak for now, we barricade all hopsitals, and oen of which extremely, plus the fire dep for melee combat housing. IF it ever coems down to it that zombies over take us we run to a new set of coordinates that we should all know of, that means posting a list of coordinates on here and makign sure they are kept up with repairs. If you are all clear on what I mean, if you wish we can find a more suitable chatting area if not our own Group site. I'm in no meansn ecessarily able to set oen up for us though but I do plan on making a difference, thanks for those of you who lsitened and didn't ignore me on UD itself. :) We'll be just like in the movies... OVerwhelmed by the udnead but ever vigilant. We will continue to move on and on and on and you know what we have advantages here... Zombiesm ight go out in hunting parties but we can hide in the bush too they'd never suspect us. :) I'm gonna go back on UD now and add you's all as contacts, all of whom are interested. Get back to me soon.

Derris again - I'm gonna put my tag as EverLife Survival Group, feel free to stay as Zeliak Defense Force, or change to mine I dont really care, I wasnt part of Zeliak D F to begin with I actually came from Jessup Boulevard PD making me Jessup D F :P, I'm simpyl a survivor who wants to band together with you's as you've all grown past and into a safety level. You've al shown ability to survive and stay safe. Like I said, if someone wishes to scout and find fall back points and lsit htem here WHILE perhaps making sure they are kept safe, that'd be highly appreciated, while others remain at Zeliak and surrounding areas to protect it. Zeliak can outlast most other areas due to its 3 hopsitals and high levelled players, among havign two weapon producing buildings, plus norht of us is another extremely heavily barricaded PD.

So again we should establish: List of fall back points Scouting teams ( at least 2 variable teams of preferably of 4 or 5 members, of which will find and fix our fall back points) Atleast 20 members in each hospital and Zeliak itself being the main sleep bunker. ( discluding our mobile scouting teams unless they are home) Among members within the named areas and members of our group ( we are ceasing control of the area), healers, fighters, barricaders. 

   - Healers may defend themselves but will hold more FAKS then ammo, they should focus on melee weapons rather then guns.
   - Barricaders once levelled to the max may defend also but shouldn't let their AP detract from being able to log on and quickly rebuild.
   - Fighters preferably high damage gunners may scan the surroundign area kill ( head shot) anything and in time repeatedly KOing zombies.
   - Fighters preferably those with melee weapons like fencing foils, knives and or axes may protect within the buildings unless udner siege outside.
   - PKers will be killed and dumped, I have no problem with them in normal UD but here they are a nuisance.
   - Those wishing to get Fuel may be anything they wish OR their own mobile group like the scouts.
   - If you see cades are low, I dont' care who you are or what your use is, don't wait for others, YOU cade godamnit! Even if itso nly with 5 AP, CADE!

Anyone feel free to add to this or question the idea. I jsut want osemthign efficient. Tom you think we can set this up with your Zeliak Defense Force? Like I said, we'll need scouters, in small groups that can effectively defend fall back points and repair them and perhaps continuously create free running paths to them or part way for safety reasons. These will be people who aren't afraid to always be on the run or move or enjoy travelling the area. We'll need a radio channel for us only and each of our fall back points along with the scoutsm otives they will need to set things to the same frequencies. And I think itsb est that we all stay together andn ot all live seperately in the fall back points, we want the zombies to chase us and waste AP while we get time to set up, we don't want them barking up ALL of our trees and makign work for us. Let me know if I'm brilliant or over doing it. I just like things ot be set up, HENCE the need for our own site perhaps. Let me know if you like my strategy. But seriously we'ren umbering 60 now? Let'sm ake sure EVERYONEE of those people are aware of the plan and perhaps willing to spread out and take jobs. Derris out, sorry for the large messagesb ut it should itnerest you - OVER

Derris - Realize, Monroeville is a large map, so we can continue on & on again to run and defend and eventually perhaps win, I'm not sure what perma deadm eans in regards to Head shots. Anyone wanna put me in the clear? But yeh, I'm willing to be a Tactician for Zeliak D F, I remain tagged the way I am, but I'm with you's and anyone wishing to follow me closely as a friend and survival partner can do so too, Skullcracker, if you see this, thats in regards to you if you wish to group urself with me you can, I'd love to, but we're all working together. but I'll take pertnership on here and seriously too. I wanna see if we can survive this thing and see the easy days of havign to travel entire areas to find one damn zombie again :P. That and we can set ourselves apart from other survivors. Make osemthing of ourselves. Zeliak is our main base but we will have ot fall back we will slowly begin to have to worry about zombies, large hordes spreading out. And you know what our fallback list once created can be a cycle list too eventually we can coem back aroudn to Zeliak and take it back over and do it all over again ti lthe zombies die off. Derris OVER & OUT.

Long term plans?

John Hyder here. What with the new ability to permanently kill zombies via a headshot, I'm pretty confident we can win this thing. As far as perma-kill goes, its basically just the way it sounds: if you kill it, it stays dead. As long as we all get Headshot I'm about 250 xp short, at the moment), we can kill any zombie in a five block radius while staying safely inside the barricades. It'll be rather hard for the zombies to form large hordes, as they'll be getting picked off at an alarming rate. Given the right surveillance, I think we can keep any large horde away, or at least have enough warning to move, if it comes to that. The main thing, as you've said, is to stick together and stay on our toes. Hyder out. Polecat1 17:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Headshot

MonroeJimhoff here,

I say we stay at Zeliak for as long as possible, but set up Smoot Boulevard Police Dept and maybe Titus General Hospital as secure points to retreat to. Both are five free walks away, so it will be easy to keep an eye on both places and easy to run to. It might seem a bit close, but i doubt a large horde will form around here, and if one does we'll have to scout somewhere else.

I think that everyone without headshot shouldn't kill zombies. Just get them down to 10-5 hps and then report here letting us headshotters know where to shot. This might not work as well as we have no way of gaining their profile link so it will be hard to target specific zombies and it will slow down those who don't have headshot yet from gaining headshot. But what I'm picture is that people with headshot log on and take out six or seven zombies who are nearly dead. I guess this would only work if there were several zombies spread across several neighborhoods, as you always attack the first on the stack. It just seems like wasting AP to kill a zombie if you don't have headshot yet. What do you guys think? Jimhoff 00:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Headshot changes everything. Now that zombies can be permanently killed, I don't see any reason to leave Zeliak PD. It's a great defensive position. Strategically it's a fantastic position with all reasources readily available except for fuel. Even fuel is only about a 10 AP trip to get. It's almost as good as a mall. Speaking of which, Spaulding Mall is a place we ought to consider as future base if this general area needs to be abandoned. I think it's the best close resource point that offers the same benefits as Zeliak PD, more if you have consumer skills. Newton and Oaktown also have some great places that would be good as "final" fallback points. Oaktown must have almost a dozen PD's in one 10x10 square. That's very long term view. For now though, I second Smoot PD as a retreat point. Smoot's been pretty secure so far and has been maned by many other survivors. Worsham PD just a little further south not so much, the zombies seem to like attacking there I have noticed so that's a place I would be wary about. I also agree that players that haven't leveled up to headshot should try to avoid killing zombies. At least if you are close to getting headhsot, within one level or so, the next time you go hunting, load up on ammo and AP and try not kill any zombies until have enough XP to buy the headshot skill. As soon as you have the enough XP, buy headshot, then return to the game and deliver some devastaing headshots to the zombies whose butt you were kicking. One question though -- is this really a probleme for our group? How many members lack headshot?--Jmboo 20:45, 30 March 2008 (BST)
Please sign your edits on the wiki. You can do this by pressing the Sign.png button in the editing toolbar. Signing your edits in the standard format makes it much easier to identify when and who has made changes, and creates less work for other wiki users--Airborne88Zzz1.JPGT|Z.Quiz|PSS 09:40, 30 March 2008 (BST)
Check.--Jmboo 20:45, 30 March 2008 (BST)

Group Page

I clean up and organized the discussion page. Current news and events are always at the top now for convenience. I hope everyone finds the changes make the page clearer and more convenient to read. I also added a members list to the main page. PLease feel free to add yourself, I hope this will make it easier to determine who all our members are and to communicate with each other. Lastly I put up an Honored Dead section on the main page since our group has suffered it first casualty.--Jmboo 18:27, 5 April 2008 (BST)

Radio Frequency

I'd like to propose 29.00 (or 28.02 either is fine) as the official dedicated radio frequency for the ZDF. I believe 29.00 is the current transmitter setting at the Zeliak PD. Can we all agree on this frequency and carry a radio tuned to the same frequency? I'm up north at Gastineau PD right now and having a way to contact other members from here would be very helpful, for example being able to call for help, make zombie activity reports, etc. A dedicated frequency would allow us to relay information back to base and to other members about what's happening in Monroeville beyond just the immediate Zeliak PD area and greatly epand our reach. Comments suggestions?--Jmboo 21:33, 5 April 2008 (BST)

28.02 is getting chattery too. I have two radios right now tuned to 28.01 and 28.02. I suggest everyone keep a radio tuned to 28.01 as that seems the one most people use. Sure it's going to be spammy, but sometimes useful info gets broadcast. I'm going to switch my 28.02 radio over to 29.00.Jimhoff 02:53, 9 April 2008 (BST)

PKing

I've sen some PKing starting to happen and I'm not sure what to do about it. There is a huge number of survivors who joined the game a over a month ago who are still at level one. I dont think these survivors are ever coming back. They make a great meat shield though, so I don't think they should be killed. I'm not sure if any survivor should be KOS though for killing one of these coma-survivors either though. Something to think about if you see a PKer kill someone.--Jmboo 16:41, 8 April 2008 (BST)

Make sure when you see a pker to add them to your contacts. I'm adding them as red, also anyone I hear on the radio who is a pker. I'm not one to kill on sight a pker, esp. if they are just killing level 1 people for exp. But I'll be weary of sleeping in a building if there's a pker there.Jimhoff 02:49, 9 April 2008 (BST)

Mourning

Our fellow survivor, Derris has been found, dead, outside of a nearby PD. We will miss our once fellow survivor, as he joins the ranks of the undead.--J. inman 21:26, 4 April 2008 (BST)

Retrieved from "http://wiki.urbandead.com//index.php?title=Talk:Zeliak_Defense_Force&oldid=1165448"