Suggestion talk:20071215 Knockout
Discussion Moved From Talk:Suggestions
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Knockout
| Timestamp: | Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 20:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC) |
| Type: | Skill |
| Scope: | Survivors |
| Description: | New military skill under Hand to Hand Combat which allows you to knock out a survivor. Based on ShadowScope's earlier suggestion.
This would allow you to knock out a survivor by dealing the final blow (when they're at 1HP) with your fist. The target then becomes a corpse that can be dumped same as every corpse. It smells strange, same as a revivifying one. The target would rise as a survivor at the cost of 15AP (without Ankle Grab) or 6AP (with Ankle Grab) with 13HP remaining. KO doesn't work on zombies and zombies can't KO anyone. Needless to say, you can't knock yourself out. Knocking someone out wouldn't give you any XP because 1) you didn't kill them, and 2) you don't get XP from using the fist on a fellow survivor anyway.
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Discussion (Knockout)
For Gameplay reason, you might want to bump that from 1 HP to some higher target. That is because it will take a lot of creative use of ammo to get someone down to 1 HP, and THEN you have to punch them. You could say that if you punch someone, and the punch would have killed them, then instead, it would just KO them.
But I think people don't vote on the mechanics, they vote on the actual idea itself. People just don't like KOing in general, so I doubt this could fly. Death Culting, Human Ninjas, Flavor, etc. Best you can do is try to aim for Peer Undecided.--ShadowScope 21:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- It didn't stop you from trying ;). I've got it pretty well covered. This wouldn't be used for griefing because just plain killing them is
- easier
- takes less time
- does more harm to the target.
- And this wouldn't be used for creating ninjas for several reasons:
- Getting a survivor to 1HP and then taking them out with a fist takes almost as much AP as killing and reviving them
- They can be dumped outside by anyone
- Killing and reviving them would be more efficent:
- They would have more HP when they stand up
- They would take less time to stand up
- The efficency of the preparation stage isn't as important as the efficency of the actual ninja-stage. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 09:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the pied piper issue is the biggest. - Pardus 03:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- This is as pied piper as body dumping. BoboTalkClown 03:07, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
1. If I didn't have any weapons, I'd still like it to be possible to kill another player. KO would have to be an option, instead of automatic. 2. Let's say a zed knocks someone down to 1HP. You don't have a FAK, so to keep them from getting killed you punch their lights out, and when they stand up they come back with 12HP *more* than if you left them alone. It seems rather odd that punching someone would help them. --Ms.Panes 12:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- Once you've got your weapons, it's not like you magically lose them. If you're low-level enough to not have weapons, you're not likely to have this skill either.
- That's 12HP for 6 or 15 AP and that's just the "victim's" AP, the knocker has to spend 4 AP on average before they land a punch on them. That's 2 or 0,8 HP per AP. You could always say that they get some rest and heal a bit during they time they're out. Besides, zombies drop and stand up with 50 or 60 HP all the time, possibly with only 1 AP used in the process. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 14:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- 1. I'd still want to be able to kill someone with my fists. 2. I don't care what your AP/etc. justifications are, punching someone should not help them- this isn't Urban Slapstick.
- Hmm... I think, if done right, knocking someone out *could* be cool, the problem is that if someone really is treated like a dead body it would just serve to allow survivors to hide each other from zombies. Maybe what you could do is, when someone is knocked out it only takes 1 AP to stand up, but they're still vulnerable to attack while on the ground. So, you knock someone out, then drag them outside to let the zombies "do the dirty work." And people should be able to drag the person inside, too, to balance the possibility of zombie spies dragging folks outside. Maybe a "knockout punch" option becomes available when survivors are at or below 10(?) HP, with a 25% chance to hit or something. Doesn't do any damage, but does knock them down. Hmm... I like the "hurt someone without killing them" idea, but... I'm not sure if knockout quite fits. --Ms.Panes 00:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- 1. OK, a separate knockout attack is probably best, but it still would work only at 1HP and with the fist's percentages. Main reason for the 1HP requirement is that it effectively prevents you from "saving" someone by knocking them out before they die.
- 2. What if they stood up with exactly 1HP?
- I don't think being vulnerable to attack while on the ground is a good idea. Either the body would have to be somehow separate from regular bodies, or you should be able to attack/drag any body. Option 1 would effectively be a death sentence, which would defeat the purpose of "hurt survivors without killing them" and option 2 just seems silly.
- And no, this doesn't allow survivors to hide from zombies. You can't do this to yourself and doing this to others costs a whole lot of AP. The cheapest (best equipment + all skills, target with no BB or flak) way would be to shoot four times with a shotgun, once with a pistol, knife them twice and then punch them out. On average that would take ~16AP. A plain revive costs 10AP. Let's not forget that individual shells and clips are as hard to find as syringes. Very, very few people would be ready to sacrifice that much AP and ammunition to help others avoid zombification, especially as it's easier and cheaper to just revive them afterwards. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 11:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm saying the zombie or PKer or whatever knocks someone down to one health, and you find them at (NOT shoot them down to) 1HP, then you knock their lights out. You've effectively prevented someone else from doing the finishing blow. Yes, it would be pointless to spend a bajillion AP to get them to 1HP, but if they were already there... that's where I'm seeing the problem with this. --Ms.Panes 22:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
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Discussion on Voting
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Re Spam
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Spam - No Ninja skills, dieing doesn't need a nerf.--Karekmaps?! 17:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
- Re: Ninjas with 1HP and at least 5 AP less than if done by killing them and reviving. Whoop-de-doo. With ninjas, the end-result is more important than the amount of preparatory work. --Midianian|T|T:S|C:RCS| 18:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
- Re: Ninjas who now don't have to get a revive, can make their first action 4 heals, and save survivors a large number of net AP because they don't have to get a revive. Not to mention that it keeps them from going zombie, and considering most of the zombies in the game are made from killed survivors post suburb/mall siege this has a real effect on the game. You would/could essentially stop zombies from getting kill bonus Xp(which means even harder leveling) and kill Feeding Drag as a skill completely. It's overpowered and nothing you say or do will change that.--Karekmaps?! 11:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
