Suggestion talk:20090909 Ripoff of Boxing Gloves, stolen from Dr Frank
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Discussion (Ripoff of Boxing Gloves, stolen from Dr Frank)
Should have more Encumbrance, I think; of course, that's based purely on feel... Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 04:30, 6 September 2009 (BST)
- Wait, I misread this; I thought it said you lost a point every hour. As it is it makes a little practice enough to trump the Fire Axe for best melee weapon. I liked it back when I misread it though; you had to seriously practice to make any long term headway... Perhaps you lose a point every hour or 90 minutes? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 04:41, 6 September 2009 (BST)
- Keep in mind, you only gain a point with every successful attack. The most damage you can do is 3, which is equal to fire axe, and as far as the hit %, I haven't compared but I assume that with hand to hand and axe handling fire axe is still better... plus, you can't use FAKs or other items with gloves on, you'd have to spend the AP to take them off and put them back on again, I figured 1 point every 12 hours would be an okay rate of point loss, but I could see increasing the rate... I don't think every hour or 90 minutes would be best though... the item is already fairly inconvenient and you only get the full damage benefits when you're at 90 skill points or more, and the full accuracy benefits at 100%. To make this item work at peak efficiency, you really have to commit to it, which means you may not have the time to do other things in-game.--Necrofeelinya 05:41, 6 September 2009 (BST)
- Good point; I forgot about healing and failed to notice it was only for successful hits. How about barricading though, can survivors still do that with gloves on? Also, should taking the gloves off effect your points in any way? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 05:52, 6 September 2009 (BST)
- I think that any action besides attacking that the player attempts while wearing gloves should bring up a message that says "You're unable to perform that action while wearing boxing gloves. Perhaps you should take them off?" That particularly applies to 'cading and searching. I'll probably amend the suggestion to say that later, but it's late tonight and I think I'll catch some rest.--Necrofeelinya 06:15, 6 September 2009 (BST)
- Oh, and as for taking the gloves off... it doesn't affect the points, they continue to diminish at the regular rate. You just can't accumulate any more without them on. Now I'm gonna go pass out. Or something.--Necrofeelinya 06:44, 6 September 2009 (BST)
- I think that any action besides attacking that the player attempts while wearing gloves should bring up a message that says "You're unable to perform that action while wearing boxing gloves. Perhaps you should take them off?" That particularly applies to 'cading and searching. I'll probably amend the suggestion to say that later, but it's late tonight and I think I'll catch some rest.--Necrofeelinya 06:15, 6 September 2009 (BST)
- Good point; I forgot about healing and failed to notice it was only for successful hits. How about barricading though, can survivors still do that with gloves on? Also, should taking the gloves off effect your points in any way? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 05:52, 6 September 2009 (BST)
- Keep in mind, you only gain a point with every successful attack. The most damage you can do is 3, which is equal to fire axe, and as far as the hit %, I haven't compared but I assume that with hand to hand and axe handling fire axe is still better... plus, you can't use FAKs or other items with gloves on, you'd have to spend the AP to take them off and put them back on again, I figured 1 point every 12 hours would be an okay rate of point loss, but I could see increasing the rate... I don't think every hour or 90 minutes would be best though... the item is already fairly inconvenient and you only get the full damage benefits when you're at 90 skill points or more, and the full accuracy benefits at 100%. To make this item work at peak efficiency, you really have to commit to it, which means you may not have the time to do other things in-game.--Necrofeelinya 05:41, 6 September 2009 (BST)
Why would this "skill" be different from the way normal skills work? Isn't it possible your setting a "bad precedent" with a skill like that?--Pesatyel 06:38, 8 September 2009 (BST)
- He's got a point; why not make a "boxing" skill? Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 18:59, 8 September 2009 (BST)
- You mean a boxing skill without gloves? Well, there would be some issues with that. First, you wouldn't have the AP penalty for equipping or unequipping the gloves. That brings punching closer to being equivalent to Fire Axe. Second, there would be no reason for players to not be able to use items while equipped for boxing. Again, closer to Fire Axe. Third, if all players can box, and boxing is that good of a weapon, they don't need any of the other weapons, because they can all start boxing. Better than Fire Axe. The beauty of this item is that it does have a different mechanic than other weapons. It's not based upon a stagnant % to hit determined by leveling. Skill with it rises and falls depending upon use. Other players can't predict with certainty how dangerous a player using this item is. It adds a sense of mystery and competition to the game, but also has drawbacks to limit its power. And as far as it being a potentially "bad precedent", if it underperforms, people won't use it... problem solved. If it becomes too popular, then being an item it can be made extremely rare by just tweaking the search rates. Hardly seems a big risk to take to me.--Necrofeelinya 00:53, 9 September 2009 (BST)
- Ummm.... No. I mean a skill that lets you box with the gloves on (and earn points). Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 00:57, 9 September 2009 (BST)
- You mean a skill they purchase like any other, but which only applies to boxing gloves? I think adding a new skill for this would be excessive... after all, it only applies to one item and would basically be skill tree clutter. I think actual skills should have more of an effect than this.--Necrofeelinya 03:37, 9 September 2009 (BST)
- You mean like
Open DoorsMemories of Life, Knife Combat and Axe Proficiency? WHY would this have a different mechanic? Couldn't the same mechanic apply to ALL the weapons? That is what I meant about it being a bad precedent, that it unecessarily complicates things. As for your attempt at "fixing" the problem, you DO know that rare =/= balanced, especially when your talking about a nonconsumable, right? Also, "equipping" items has been suggested before. You might want to take a look at those suggestions.--Pesatyel 04:44, 9 September 2009 (BST)- Why should it have to have the same mechanic? This is an opportunity to test a different mechanic in a controlled fashion. Yes, the same mechanic could apply to all weapons... but it doesn't have to. And who says I'm fixing a problem? I never claimed that. As for Memories of Life, it's a fundamental game skill, not an optional accessory. Hand to Hand Combat is a basic that applies to all combat, and Axe Proficiency is mirrored by its alternative, Firearms skills, which basically helps a character decide whether to be a gun-toting or axe-wielding character. Rather than the item, it's your criticism that's unbalanced. And if that's all you've got, and Lelouch just had a couple of modest questions, and nobody else has commented after a couple of days on DevSug, this puppy may as well go to a vote.--Necrofeelinya 06:23, 9 September 2009 (BST)
- You mean like
- You mean a skill they purchase like any other, but which only applies to boxing gloves? I think adding a new skill for this would be excessive... after all, it only applies to one item and would basically be skill tree clutter. I think actual skills should have more of an effect than this.--Necrofeelinya 03:37, 9 September 2009 (BST)
- Ummm.... No. I mean a skill that lets you box with the gloves on (and earn points). Lelouch vi Britannia is helping make Ridleybank green_ and gives Achievements 00:57, 9 September 2009 (BST)
- You mean a boxing skill without gloves? Well, there would be some issues with that. First, you wouldn't have the AP penalty for equipping or unequipping the gloves. That brings punching closer to being equivalent to Fire Axe. Second, there would be no reason for players to not be able to use items while equipped for boxing. Again, closer to Fire Axe. Third, if all players can box, and boxing is that good of a weapon, they don't need any of the other weapons, because they can all start boxing. Better than Fire Axe. The beauty of this item is that it does have a different mechanic than other weapons. It's not based upon a stagnant % to hit determined by leveling. Skill with it rises and falls depending upon use. Other players can't predict with certainty how dangerous a player using this item is. It adds a sense of mystery and competition to the game, but also has drawbacks to limit its power. And as far as it being a potentially "bad precedent", if it underperforms, people won't use it... problem solved. If it becomes too popular, then being an item it can be made extremely rare by just tweaking the search rates. Hardly seems a big risk to take to me.--Necrofeelinya 00:53, 9 September 2009 (BST)
Response to Dr Frank's vote:
I did give you credit. That's why your name is in the suggestion. And (a) I don't understand how it's more appropriate for a gatling gun... that makes no sense at all, especially considering that there's no gatling gun in the game, and thus no example of how such an item would work. Further, the implication of such a statement is that this item allows rapid-fire, extremely powerful attacks, which is plainly not true. (b) If we're to judge from the average person's ability to punch, then no, people can't learn to punch without gloves on. But seriously, it's a way to restrict the mechanic to one item so it doesn't have an overwhelming effect on the game, as a test for a specific game mechanic in a controlled fashion. And (c) people don't get this skill increase from firearms because they haven't been implemented that way. If the mechanic works well, maybe Kevan would want to consider it for other items, but for now it's just not how things are done. And nobody can use a shotgun like a sniper rifle... the real-life mechanics of the item don't allow it, silly.
- I don't mind the credit, it was a joke and I'm rather pleased to see my name up there. Well, by the gatling gun bit what I meant was that like in certain popular games it rotates slowly and fires and fires and keeps on firing and gradually attains a extremely fast rate of fire, was somewhat similar to your skill where the punch gets better with each successful hit and finally becomes quite powerful. I know that doing that will be quite difficult but you know, COSTLY/UNDERPOWERED not equal BALANCED. I've no argument against (b). Which means I agree with it. And (c), hmm... I was talking from role-play point of view, not the mechanics. It simply doesn't make sense to implement this mechanic for fists if it doesn't work with firearms. And finally, the sniper bit, was intended as an over-exaggerated way to show the veterans' experience. Which it was. Even if it opposes real-life mechanics. I hope that the point's taken, that after all these years shotgunning they'd be very good at it. Very good....
- Hope that helps. --~Dr Frank (t) (DF) [P] (Sb) 14:15, 11 September 2009 (BST)
