Suggestion talk:20120722 Beckon

Beckon Zero Damage "Attack"

Timestamp: A Big F'ing Dog 00:18, 18 July 2012 (BST)

Type: Skill upgrade

Scope: Zombies

Description: What if zombies could use scent trail to track allied zombies who want to be followed? I suggest upgrading Flailing Gesture to also gives zombies a Beckon attack. This attack would cost 1 AP, deal 0 damage, and have an 100% chance of success, acting like the zombie version of a newspaper attack. It would look like this to the target: A zombie slowly gestured for you to follow it. Survivors and zombies targeted by the Beckon would receive a link to the "attacking" zombie's profile, and recognize them if already in their contacts. If a zombie has Scent Trail then they would be able to follow the zombie that beckoned at them. This would make Beckon a pretty handy way for allied zombies to stick together without talking to each other. You could beckon at each one of your contacts in a room so they know where to meet you.

Discussion (Beckon Zero Damage "Attack")

At least to me, it feels a bit out of place. Plus, if you're in a group with someone and they groan, it already says, "you hear a familiar groan", so you can coordinate with your friends that way to find the food. Other than that, just get your allies' attention by saying something in-game, then point in the correct direction. Not only does it accomplish the same thing, but it also lets you do it once for an entire room, rather than having to do it once per ally. —Aichon— 00:33, 18 July 2012 (BST)

But if you're a zombie then you're speaking through the filter of death rattle. And feeding groans are great for calling zombies to converge on an ongoing attack, not so good for moving around together regardless of where survivors are. What if you want to lead your band of say 5 allied zombies across 4 suburbs to attack a specific distant location? You could use Beckon to guide them there with stops along the way. Feeding Groan is much more random and uncontrollable, and not really useful for planned travel. --A Big F'ing Dog 00:38, 18 July 2012 (BST)

Why not let one attack signal all the zombies in the same block? -- _{Org XIII} ^Alts 00:44, 18 July 2012 (BST)

To protect zombie anonymity. You might not want every zombie present, many of them strangers perhaps, to know your position and be able to follow you around. Also, since Scent Trail requires an attack it makes sense to treat Beckon as an attack rather than a form of speech. --A Big F'ing Dog 00:47, 18 July 2012 (BST)

As it currently stands, you need the zombies profiles to make this work. If you have the profiles, odds are good that you have another means of communication. I'd rather my zombie be identifiable to random zombies but be able to tell a large group, hey let's all hit the cades at x. I could see a few cases of players specifically not wanting to meta-game finding this useful, but in general it would be more useful to signal everyone at once. As for making sense, once survivors can't jump between buildings carrying generators I'll worry about that. -- _{Org XIII} ^Alts 01:33, 18 July 2012 (BST)

^^^^^^ This. -MHSstaff 01:39, 18 July 2012 (BST)

I realized I completely missed the Scent Trail part of this suggestion before. Honestly, I'm just not getting it. For one, the flavor is all off. Zombies don't coordinate or communicate intentionally in lore. They communicate incidentally, which is why things like Groan and Bellow make sense. Nor are they telepathic (note to self: come up with something involving telepathic zombies) or show any awareness for one another in lore, so it makes no sense that they'd know where the others are if they're not in the immediate vicinity.

I do agree that the game could use a better means for in-game organization among zombies since it is a real problem, but I feel like the mechanic proposed here is actually too much of a hassle, too expensive, and just something that better belongs in the meta-game than in-game. I don't know what a good mechanic that solves the problem would look like, unfortunately, but I just feel like this isn't it. Sorry I can't offer something more constructive, but I'm not sure what would feel right to me. :( —Aichon— 03:58, 18 July 2012 (BST)

The rules of zombies changes from fictional universe to universe, and in Urban Dead's world the undead are clearly sentient and malevolent. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to say "Barhah harman! Hahaha!" and groups like the RRF wouldn't make any sense. Plus there are plenty of fictional stories where zombies aren't entirely mindless. And even Romero's films, as classic as you can get, addressed the intelligence of zombies. Day of the Dead had Bub the zombie, who retained parts of his humanity and grew fond of a living human. And Romero's Land of the Dead featured "Big Daddy" as a main character, an unusually intelligent zombie who was able to lead a zombie horde against a fortified human city.

As for the cost, I think the 1 AP per zombie is an important balancing factor. Being able to lead specific allies around is a useful ability and it shouldn't be a free upgrade. It's a useful tool, so it should have an AP cost above that of normal groaning. Also, I think the AP cost is more of a boon to zombies than a penalty. If zombies could beckon to everyone for 1AP, then people would do it all the time and it would be ignored as spam. Your history would just be a list of dozens of zombies beckoning for no reason. Imposing a per zombie AP cost forces it to be targeted, and more likely to be important. It's the difference between "That zombie wants ME to follow him" and "That zombie just blared out a message for everyone to follow him, and so did twenty other zombies." --A Big F'ing Dog 05:02, 18 July 2012 (BST)

To chime in about flavour, it's a pretty established mytheme that when one zombie in a group sees something, you get all of them chasing it. Cinematic zombies horde together, they don't split up needlessly. And while unfortunately we'll never empower zombies in this game to be as intelligent and memorable as Blue Heart the DJ (Zombi 3, you fucking heathens); there are still pertinent examples of this happening between "baser" zombies in fiction—Savini's Night of the Living Dead remake has a community gradually turn inwards as individual zombies catch the attention of others until they surround one building; Bub of course displays not only the prescience to chat his little heart out but to pull a pretty similar trick, leading Rhodes to a horde rather than the horde to Rhodes; the zombies of Quarantine, Flight of the Living Dead and Automaton Transfusion all display a one-runs-then-the-others-join-in mentality (the latter film even features a pretty solid interpretation of a zombie RTS); while Colin features the individual's take on this, as the lone zombie protagonist joins in an attack after seeing movement and flailing from other zombies. I think the basic idea of this skill is sound, and easily justified within the genre, but perhaps re-tooling it as a child skill of Flailing Gesture, with the functionality then passed on to any zombies you individually gesture towards rather than adding a new attack. The idea then would be that you've seen another zombie shuffling off towards food and you're going to follow; the execution still retains the privacy and anonymity of the original suggestion but keeps things that little bit simpler. 03:43, 20 July 2012 (BST)

Rather than quibble about the flavor stuff (which I disagree with you about), I'd like to focus on the mechanic some more (we can invent flavor to fit it afterwards). I've thought about the mechanic, and I realized why it sits wrong with me: it's inelegant. It's rather kludgy that you need to attack each zombie individually, that the responsibility falls on one zombie to coordinate everyone else, and that, since it works with Scent Trail, it will need to be redone at every single stop your group might make. I do understand why you have it that way, and I agree with why you chose to do it that way instead of being done en masse, but if I did something like that at work, my boss would tell me I was treating a symptom rather than fixing the cause of the problem. Perhaps looking at the big picture and reassessing our base assumptions might help?

What about if you flipped the responsibility so that it was the followers who had to do the work? Make it a skill under Scent Trail called "Aftertaste" that could be used, say, to track the last character that you bit until one of you dies. Even if we decide that that's OP and that it should only work against zombies, it still gives the skill much broader applicability, since almost everyone could use it, rather than only a small handful being able to use it. And with it wearing off after death, it keeps it from being easily abused by griefers. On the other hand, it would be easy for group members to use, since they're likely to die near each other anyway, and rather than having to redo it at every stop along the way, they'd only need to do it after a stop where someone died. And it even has auto-balancing built in, since biting someone brings them closer to death and closer to you losing their trail, meaning that it can't be used en masse very easily. The idea still has problems, but I see flipping it around as a way of addressing the cause of the problems, rather than the symptoms. —Aichon— 07:04, 18 July 2012 (BST)

It's possible to make a similar skill require work on the part of the follower instead of the leader. But it should be entirely optional on the leader's part. I don't think zombies should be able to track another zombie who doesn't want them to. And it shouldn't involve bite, since being injured or even killed by allies trying to follow you would get very annoying. --A Big F'ing Dog 19:10, 19 July 2012 (BST)

Well, I don't think this idea works if it's the leader that has to do everything, and I've balanced out the flip side as best as I can do in a few minutes of thought so that people can't be followed easily against their will while avoiding loads of buttons popping up asking if you want to be followed or whatnot. And Bite being the attack that's used is optional to me. I thought it made for a more interesting dynamic that was more inline with what we expect of zombies in lore, but I'm open to an alternative attack that acts more like a slap. If you come up with something better that addresses the issues you saw in what I said, let us know. —Aichon— 20:08, 19 July 2012 (BST)

I do agree with you. It is worth brainstorming alternatives since those are valid points you raise. I just don't think bite is the answer. I think Beckon would work as is, but I'll try to think of other options also.--A Big F'ing Dog 01:51, 20 July 2012 (BST)

I like where this is going. A big part of playing as a zombie is getting ferals or zombies of another group to convene. We have other mechanics with this goal in mind (groan, bellow, flailing gesture) but they fall short in places. As dog pointed out, groaning works only once cades are breached and there are sufficient survivors present. Gesture has limited uses and death rattle is cumbersome. Something to this vein would be very helpful.

I don't see too many issues with the current suggestion at all actually. Its balanced because it requires both zombies to have a skill set. The only minor issue I find is flavor. Its kind of an unintentional use of the Scent Trail skill, which is used to hunt down survivors which have had interaction with you. I'm sure this can be worked around or explained though. ~ _{01:26, 18 July 2012 (UTC)}

Would you have to Beckon each ally in a square or would one Beckon work for all known allies in the square? Maybe you could choose? -MHSstaff 01:34, 18 July 2012 (BST)

You'd have to beckon at each individual ally you want to have follow you, costing 1 AP per person. As an attack, only the person targeted would see the message. I think that's important for balance, since limiting zombie speech is a core part of making gameplay fair. Letting someone spend a couple AP each day to lead a small handful of allies around is one thing. Letting a horde leader spend 1AP to lead 50 zombies could have much more significant consequences. Of course, Beckon and Feeding Groan could be used together to lead around larger hordes. For example, a zombie leader of a 200 person horde might beckon at his 3 lieutenants to have them follow him. That small strike force should be large enough to break into a building and issue a feeding groan. The other 196 zombies will hear the familiar feeding groan and join up with the leaders. There are other advantages to making it 1AP per person too. It allows zombies to stealthily alert other zombies to their presence, without giving away their profile to everyone present. It should also cut back on spam, forcing people to only beckon if they really want someone specific to follow them.--A Big F'ing Dog 03:03, 18 July 2012 (BST)

Did you really say this: "since limiting zombie speech is a core part of making gameplay fair" without a lulz at the end? No, limiting zombie speech is the reason zombies stay outnumbered 2:1. -- _{Org XIII} ^Alts 13:06, 18 July 2012 (BST)

Not being able to coordinate is pretty much the main zombie weakness, the same way mortality is the main survivor weakness. If zombies could communicate just as well as survivors, then it would be easy to plan attacks and smash through safehouses, rather than the current system of hordes slowly forming over time until they overwhelm defenses. But I agree that zombies need more ways of communicating (which is why I'm suggesting Beckon). Zombies can never communicate as well as survivors, because that would throw the game way out of balance. But I agree with you. Not being able to communicate with friends and stick together with allies makes the zombie experience lonely, even when you're surrounded by a giant horde, and discourages people from playing the zombie side. That's my reasoning behind this suggestion. This ability gives zombies the power to stick together with small groups of allies. It basically lets them say "Hey, meet me here", which should make the game less lonely. And it'll allow small zombie strike teams to form and continue their existence, rather than dispersing after a while. However, anything that improves zombie communication that significantly should probably have an added cost. It's striking down part of THE major zombie weakness, and I prefer adding it as a tool that costs AP to use rather than just a free upgrade. --A Big F'ing Dog 18:56, 19 July 2012 (BST)

I don't disagree that zombies need some weakness. However, logic would dictate people don't play MMOs to be alone. So, when the zombie weakness basically ruins the MMO aspect of the game something is wrong. The population ratio would also suggest that the balance of lack of communication v. revives favors survivors. The biggest difference is that zombies have to communicate, meta-game or just get lucky. A lone survivor can shoot zombies everyday, reclaim buildings assuming only a couple of zombies guarding it, revive 5 other survivors in a single AP cycle, and they never have to say a word. A lone zombie can spend a day looking at barricade levels drop and get to see them back at EHB the next time they log in, find a random throw-away level 1 on the street, or hit a VSB building and get to groan and maybe 20 HP of damage. Given that your idea does help the problem, I'd vote for it; but I still think we are trying to stop a tank by throwing rocks at it. -- _{Org XIII} ^Alts 23:02, 18 July 2012 (BST)

Yes, the gameplay experience for a non-meta gaming zombie can be pretty boring. It can involve a lot of time by yourself, trying to find something productive to do, not even sure if the building you're attacking has someone inside. Beckon would make that non-metagaming zombie experience a little less lonely, by letting you make friends and travel around with small groups of undead allies. It wouldn't radically change the game, but in a game that depends heavily on maintaining balance you don't want to introduce any one skill powerful enough that it can completely change everything all by itself. --A Big F'ing Dog 21:51, 19 July 2012 (BST)

Hmm. Technically already available for free. Gesture in a direction, providing your profile link, in your profile write, "Lets attack blackmore, 2 squares north". However, the current zombie human dynamic is partially due to these limitations. To coordinate zombies need to meta, leading to a few, large zombie groups. Survivors on the other hand can squark into radios, fire off flares, talk to each other and even slap themselves. This leads to scores of small, less organised survivor groups, who don't rely on good organisation, and are, as a rule of thumb, terrible. Give me 100 404'ers and I could reclaim this city. This reminds me of Scent horde, which i think I prefer. Anyone got that link?--Ross^WHO????ness 15:05, 18 July 2012 (BST)

I kind of view Zombie/Survivor interaction as a game of whack-a-mole. The organized zombie groups are like giant hammers that can smash down pretty much anything, but can only be in a few places at once. And when one survivor defense is smashed, another defense pops up somewhere else. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Those big zombie hammers make for epic sieges and battles. Beckon however is meant to allow smaller zombie groups to be viable without metagaming, so two or three complete strangers playing zombies that meet in game can stick together and travel around for a bit, even if they don't want to bother communicating out of the game. Basically, Beckon is aimed at allowing the casual zombie gamer to be more effective and have a more social experience. It's not going to be a useful skill for the big organized zombie groups that have forums, or small groups of friends that chat on AIM. It's for helping small groups of strangers playing zombies stick together for a bit. Not everyone who plays Urban Dead is an invested in it as we are. A lot of players just want to spend their 50AP and log off, without checking out the wiki or the forums. The zombie side is not very fun for casual gamers though, which is one of the reasons for the population imbalance. --A Big F'ing Dog 19:22, 19 July 2012 (BST)

So I've done a bit of thinking on this. I still think it's better if each beckon "attack" is only visible to one person at a time, costing 1AP per person. The main reasons are these:

1) Communication security - It allows you to only target your allies and nobody else. Nobody else can see it. Something that selects all contacts or group members might leak your location to spies or enemies, since those aren't always necessarily your allies. Even zombie speech isn't this covert since everyone in the room can hear it.

2) Spam Prevention - If it was possible to beckon at large groups of people for just 1AP, I think some players would abuse it. You'd just see beckons from dozens of zombies all day, and I think beckons would end up getting ignored. Better to impose a small cost and keep the skill useful and spam free.

That said, I think there might be room for a different skill that allows easier zombie communication to groups. But I think a zombie version of a 0 damage newspaper attack is worth adding, even if there's another new zombie mass-communication skill too. The goal of Beckon is really to covert communication to individual zombies, but I think we should continue to discuss options for mass communication.

I'd like to talk about flavor also. Perhaps there's a better way of phrasing the descriptive sentence for Beckon so it feels more zombie-like. --A Big F'ing Dog 05:12, 21 July 2012 (BST)