UDWiki:Administration/Arbitration/Grim s VS Zombie Squad

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Grim s VS Zombie Squad

The conflict has been going for a while, but recently it has come down to a relatively minor issue:

Zombie Squad was caught zerging (And two people even made confessions to it eventually, which i have screenshots of, pretty much making any complaints about its placement there as unverifiable null and void). Basically it has gotten to the point where my addition to the NPOV section (Refined by Spiro) is being juggled around the page, with Skeletor, and more recently Nick shaw moving it to a "Drama" section at the bottom which basically contained a lot of attacks on me, then the NPOV edit moved to the bottom of the page under that. I contend that the text belongs in the NPOV section,l while they contend that it belongs at the bottom of the page, outside the NPOV section after a whole pile of abuse directed towards me with nothing substantial.

My reasoning is thus: The edit is an NPOV edit made by me in good faith to improve the accuracy of the wiki, and as such it belongs in the NPOV section, where such information should normally reside, where it can be absorbed as the neutral information it is, as opposed to down the bottom, where anything read is read after a significant amount of character assassination (And despite the fact the information contained in there is slanderous, i dont much mind it remaining, even correcting some of the grammar).

As a request to the Arbitrators of this case: I request that The General be the arbitrator for this case, as he is one person who has not been a part of the "Zerg wars" on the wiki, and i can trust him to be impartial in this matter. --Grim s 16:13, 28 March 2006 (BST)

Hug:Looking at the page, moving the information to the bottom of the page completely devaluates the information and is as good as deleting it. I think it should go at the NPOV section at the top but I will wait for a statement from Zombie Squad, as per wiki rules, before making the final desicion. You may continue to move it to the top of the page until they make a statement.--The General 16:41, 28 March 2006 (BST)

So let me gets this straight. Grim S first personally attacks me and my fiance when this orgianlly all started back in November/ Decebmer of 2005. Calls all of Zombie Squad Zeging Cunts in addition bashes the real life Zombie Squad which is a non -profit organization to help people with natural diasters slandering their name as we'll as the team in the Game of Urban Dead. Vanadlizes our wiki page repeatadly by adding old information that a couple of team memebers post that they where talking with their characters since during the holidays the Game was dead so they deciced to entertain people. So he labels the entire team as Zergers or even previous Zergers for the sake to get his way. Then sends this to Arbitration where HE picks the judge. Hmmmmmm. So the team that is ours has no say as to what is on their own teams wiki site and people like Grim S are allowed to succeed in their own personal internet vendetas. The NPOV has holes in it and Grim S is doing his best to crawl through them for what reason none of us will ever figure out.

I hereby request that the the statements involving members of ZS zerging be stricken from our Wiki entry and the user known as Grim S. be asked to no longer edit our entry. We in turn will remove all comments regarding Grim S. The members who were accused of Zerging have long since stopped such practices and there is no need to continue harping on events that involved 2 members several months ago. --Skeletor 00:57, 29 March 2006 (BST)

In theory, all you'd have to do is disagree with Grim's choice of arbitrator, and in effect -- no one can decide this case. Since he's dimissed all others, and you can dismiss his choice. Hmm. Methinkst this may be a loophole that needs closing. Not that Skeletor would do it, I'm just pointing out the fact that it needs to be fixed. -- Amazing 02:50, 29 March 2006 (BST)

I removed the Drama section and what Grim S added to our wiki.i hope that will end this dumb editing war Yours truly Nick shaw

As a member of ZS's Team Winchester and an activer member of ZS for the past year or so I would too like to request the removal of Grim's "contribution" to our wiki. The subject matter that he continual edits into our page is controversial at best since the screenshots in which he claims to have captured zerging is merely two characters of the same person standing in the same building with no evidence of them being used for a collective purpose. In addition to this, the two members in which the zerging conversation took place are either no longer a member of ZS or has been inactive for months. As for Grim's counterclaim which he has backed by a quote by Skeletor, I believe Skeletor was speaking hypothetically and have never seen him use his characters in the described manner.

However, rather than debate the validity of Grim's claim against ZS, there are numerous other reasons as to why Grim's edits should be removed. First and foremost is the fact that ZS has since disallowed any forms of zerging as defined by the accusations against us. Furthermore it is my understanding that Kevan has now included a hit percentage penalty when characters of the same IP are in close vacinity to each other. Since Grim's accusations against ZS can now be viewed more as "historic," it would be an overstatement to say that ZS "tolerates if not support" zerging. With this being said, if ZS were to be required to keep Grim's edits on our wiki page it would be saying that information on a UD group's past beliefs and actions must be a mandatory addition to their wiki page. If this arbitration were to be ruled in Grim's favor, I would personally like to see every UD group maintain information about all of their members' past beliefs and past events, no matter how insignificant or irrelevant they may be. Such an example might be having the New CoL outline and include all information pretaining to the former CoL in their wiki as part of their current organization.

If not too for the sake of ZS's image, I would also like this matter absolved seeing that edit wars have broken out on the ZS wiki for several months. Whether or not Grim claims that ZS is attempting to slander his name is merely irrelevant as there has been a thread on the official UD forums where personal attacks have been made against Skeletor and his fiance including photo editing of pictures obtained off the internet. According to Grim's reasoning, should the arbitration rule in Grim's favor, phrases like "Grim S is an internet asshat" should also be allowed in the ZS wiki as it is both an accurate summation of ZS beliefs and historically accurate in regards to the opinions of the majority of ZS.

For the sake of civility, I simply ask that Grim part ways with the ZS wiki and that ZS be allowed to present an image of itself that isn't defined by a past event as dictated from the viewpoint of Grim S. --ZekeThePlumber 03:17, 29 March 2006 (BST)


You are absolutly right I am going to disagree with Grim's choice of arbitrator--Skeletor 03:28, 29 March 2006 (BST)

Are you sure? I was about to see whether Grim would agree to the compromise.--The General 07:55, 29 March 2006 (BST)
I cant see any reason why he would reject you other than the fact i chose you. In any case, unlike Amazing said, i did not dismiss all the others, i just asked for The General to arbitrate. I am also willing to accept Zaruthustra, despite the fact i had a bit of a shouting match with him immediately pior to the formation of the WCDZ. --Grim s 10:31, 29 March 2006 (BST)
Apologies. "as he is one person who has not been a part of the "Zerg wars" on the wiki, and i can trust him to be impartial in this matter." sounded like dismissing the other Mods as Zerg warriors who could not be trusted to be impartial. I can see how you might not've meant that. (Seriously.) -- Amazing 07:57, 31 March 2006 (BST)

First of all: No, i already stated that i dont much care what you are saying about me on your page (I even corrected the grammar, if you check the history). You may continue to call me names, attack my lineage, disparage my penis size, claim i have manboobs, whatever you like, as in my opinion it merely demonstrates your childish attitude to the whole thing. The Edit is not intended to be an attack on your group, it is meant to be a statement of historical fact. Your group did do it, you got caught, you changed your ways. In that manner one could even argue that your groups character is better than the average group groups whos stance is unknown, because while you DID cheat, when it was called out you changed your ways instead of obstinately sticking to your guns about the matter, as many far less intelligent and more arrogant and belligerent people tend to do.

Is there any reason to dislike the choice of arbitrator? I chose someone i can trust to be impartial (As in, wont favour me over others or the other way around) and who has not been involved in the wiki zerg wars, and as such is far less likely to dismiss the case entirely and at least consider it. Have you any complaints other than the fact that i asked for him?

As for Zeketheplumber:

Kevan in the FAQ: 

Am I allowed to play multiple characters?
You are, provided that they lead completely separate existences within the game - your characters should not collaborate, 
nor share the same building. Multiple characters found to be working together in a suspicious fashion will be automatically 
flagged, penalised or even banned by the system. If you're running a few characters, it's best to make sure that they stay 
in separate suburbs.
(If you're sharing a computer or workplace with other players, it's recommended that you don't work together too 
closely, as this may be wrongly interpreted as a single player using several accounts.)

These are screenshots of CONFESSIONS, there is absolutely no doubt that they did it, so it is historically accurate. All i ask is that the history of the group be accurately represented in the NPOV section. However, should Zombie Squad request, i shall stop doing any editing to their page and simply set up a section on the Anti Cheater Alliance Page (A Group i am a founding member of, devoted to outing cheaters past and present) where i shall be far less flattering, and point out the fact that there are no fewer then five current Zombie Squad members on the Zerg Liste on the desensitised forums, all of which came from AFTER they officially changed their policy regarding zerging. This is something i have refrained from adding to their NPOV section as a good faith gesture, but when operating on my own turf i have no need to be so kind. --Grim s 08:20, 29 March 2006 (BST)

I have absolutely on interest in whether Zombie Squad was zerging or not I just want this edit war resolved, Grim is adding NPOV information to the NPOV section (and doing it quite reservedly as well) if you have any reasons, which have not yet been mentioned, for not wanting it on the page then please post them. I will make the desicion as soon as Zombie Squad have posted any further reasons they have for not wanting it on the page.--The General 10:07, 29 March 2006 (BST)

General, I find the fact that you are uninterested in the debate whether or not ZS has zerged is clearly biased towards Grim in the resolution of this matter. Beings that you have already stated that Grim will be adding an NPOV section to the ZS wiki, as opposed to debating the validity of Grim's NPOV, leads me to believe that you are putting myself and the rest of ZS in a defenseless position to make an argument. Should a NPOV be allowed on the ZS wiki the presense of NEUTRAL subject matter should be the basis for this descision. Rather than waste my time making a counter argument against Grim's accusations, I request a change of arbitrator. --ZekeThePlumber 18:22, 29 March 2006 (BST)

I believe you are mistaken, I don't think I did state that Grim will be adding an NPOV section to the ZS wiki I said that it looks like NPOV information and should therefore go in the NPOV section and I also said that Grim could keep adding the information until you made a statement, as you have now made a statement then I believe that all editing regarding the information should be suspended until this is resolved. The reason I am not interested in debating whether ZS has zerged or not is that it is impossible to prove either way and isn't going to resolve anything. I think that the fact that you are not prepared to make a counter argument against Grim's accusations, but would rather have a different arbitrator, says a lot about the validity of his claims.--The General 19:14, 29 March 2006 (BST)
You didn't respond to Zeke's earlier comments about the accusation being "historical" (that it was a brief and minor episode, happened months ago, and group policy hasn't allowed it since) - do you see them as being relevant to this, or would you rather that it was raised in a separate Arbitration? Have been vaguely following this one, and it seemed Grim was quick to raise it specifically for the "relatively minor issue" of NPOV-positioning to get a judgment in his favour, avoiding the issue of whether it should even be in the NPOV section at all. --Spiro 19:32, 29 March 2006 (BST)
General, you've clearly been contridicting yourself for quite some time. If, and I quote, "The reasong I [General] am not interested in debating whether ZS has zerged or not is that it is impossible to prove either way and isn't going to resolve anything." If this cannot be proven, why should debatable information be included in our wiki? The fact that I haven't made another argument against Grim's accusations is that you've pretty much established yourself as a biased third party, even moreso backed by your previous statement saying "the fact that you are not prepared to make a counter argument against Grim's accusations, but would rather have a different arbitrator, says a lot about the validity of his claims." Should I know that my comments are actually going to recognized, I could easily pump out another three to four paragraph rebuttal against Grim. Rather than take an analytical and logical approach to this, you claim that you're uninterested in every argument I've presented and just make another statement saying that if ZS would like to include any other reasons that ZS believes Grim's edits should not be allowed in the wiki to do so. As stated by Spiro, you haven't even addressed any of my previous comments. --ZekeThePlumber 20:19, 29 March 2006 (BST)
You have a point, and I apologise for overlooking that. I would like to resolve where it should be on the page first, and then either debate whether it belongs on the page at all, after the desicion, and then change the desicion accordingly, or make a seperate abitration and deal with it there.--The General 20:05, 29 March 2006 (BST)
May I suggest that we debate whether it should be on the page first before we determine where it should be if it is. It would seem like a more logical course of action to me. --ZekeThePlumber 20:22, 29 March 2006 (BST)
Actually, you're right, that does make more sense.--The General 20:29, 29 March 2006 (BST)

I would like to point out that this "evidence" that Grim so holds dear and repeatly post is first off 1.)Skeletor666 and Beastman where in the same building in Dulston during the Holidays when the game Urban Dead was slow becuase players where busy with the holidays. Do you know what they where doing?? They where singing CKY's skeletor homoerrotic song and singing Christams carols to people in the game purly for entertainment purposes. This does not constitute lableing the entire team as Zerging. 2.) the other evidence is a unreadble thread post where I was stating that my characters lead different lives which according to Kevans rules clear states is ok. Even then you notice that the majority of the characters roles are not even contributing to the game for example pie throwing or reciting poetry. This once again does not fall under Zerging. and the 3rd.) piece of eviedence is from a former ZS memeber which was banned months ago and he was more so doing it much like when someone tells a kid not to do something so they do it to be defiant. So how is it that the team does or did tolerate Zerging?? If you want to be 100% accurate and abide by the oh so holy NPOV we can add to our teams wiki that we like to sing Christmas Carols durring the holidays.

Which brings me to the purpose of our wiki in the first place. To provide general information to players intersted in partcipating in Role playing missions within the Zombie infested city of Malton and link them to our Team boards. All of our teams info is located there historial and current. We don't want a detailed historical archive all every little thing we do on the wiki. If we did the thing would be cluttered beyond any usfulness like some other teams or causes. Placing inaccurate and not so favorable terms on our teams wiki such as Zerging turns away potientail new memebers. I firmly bieleve that this entire ordeal is purly because Grim S is so pro Zombie he will stop at nothing in or outside the game to do what it takes to minimize the ranks of survivors even if it requires him to spending extra time disputing small issues like this. Read his profile he will even maintain your teams wiki for you!! I commend his persistance, a trait the undead are best known for along with their continious moaning --Skeletor 22:35, 29 March 2006 (BST)

Skeletor:
1: I suggest you reread the FAQ. He specifically states you are not supposed to have multiple characters of yours share the same building. You are one of the groups leaders, and like it or not you set an example for others in the group to follow. If the leader condones it, then the group condones it, as the leaders word is law.
2: The post is far from unreadable, and you just declared it was genuine.
3: I am pro-game continuation and Pro-truth, I want the game to be balanced and i want people to play it fairly, and as a result i go after people like you who cheat.
4: All you need to do is say the word and i will not bother your page again. I will, however, nail you to the wall on a page where i can do so freely, and unlike on your page, i will include a vastly detailed summary of your events, even the part where you accused all the people who called you on your zerging "Humourless Nazi's" and refused to stop until other members of your group shouted you down. You dont want that, do you? I lose this, and thats the first thing i do, and there is not a thing you can do to stop me. Yes, this is a very evil thing of me to do, but nowhere have i ever claimed to not be a bastard (In fact, i cheerfully confirm this to all who ask me or accuse me of it). You have your backs to the wall, you get a choice of two evils, the lesser evil of two-three lines of text on your group pages NPOV section, or the greater one with a massive in depth description of your antics which will surely turn people off towards your group.
5: My wiki entry says i am willing to stealth post and maintain a wiki entry for any group that wishes to remain anonymous and outside the reach of petty threats of other individuals. One such organisation that has taken advantage of this is FOBU, whom the CDF and several other groups are determined to greif if they are found, and i would not put email harrassment past them. --Grim s 07:59, 30 March 2006 (BST)

If ZS doesn't want it on their page then it should be removed from their page, unless Grim has any more proof of zerging. I am not going to stop Grim from posting the information on another page but you may, if you wish, take out a separate arbitration case to resolve that.--The General 08:48, 30 March 2006 (BST)

If the confessions of the accused are not enough to prove it, then nothing can ever be. --Grim s 11:35, 30 March 2006 (BST)
How about if the entry was changed to say that a member was caught zerging and has been expelled from the group?--The General 11:46, 30 March 2006 (BST)
It would be blatantly false, and thus unacceptable by both sides, as Skeletor (A Leader of the organisation) was one of the Zergers. He is Skeletor666 (Which i PKed shortly after that screenie was taken) and ZS Beastman from the first screenie in my set of three under my quote from the FAQ. Also, no evidence has emerged to suggest that Lukehes has been ejected from the group. --Grim s 12:55, 30 March 2006 (BST)
It was just that his counter arguament admits that one member was zerging but that he was expelled from the group, so I was assuming that that would be pretty safe ground.--The General 15:19, 30 March 2006 (BST)

Grim i hate to break it to you but Lukehes is gone i haven't seen him in months Nick shaw

Thank you for that information. There was no way for me to obtain it myself however, as Skeletor, way back during the incident in question, decided to make it impossible to look at the forum as a guest. There is still the case of Skeletor having two of his alts in the same building, which is against the rules stated in the FAQ (And thus Zerging). --Grim s 17:41, 30 March 2006 (BST)
You have a point, and even though I don't think having two alts singing christmas charols is cheating, it is still defined as zerging.--The General 17:51, 30 March 2006 (BST)

Grim once again your persistance is amazing and you can't seem to get it through your thick skull that this is a game and no one is hurting you or your prceious Zombies cause I had characters screwing around in a GAME!!!! In fact no one seems to care but you. The incident does not varify that we as a team do or did tolerate Zerging. Where ever you put your accusations you should include what the characters where doing in the buidling and mention that is was only MY two characters not the TEAM of ZS. And since you are so concerned about accuracy you should be required to include the lyrics of CKY's Skeletor and Beastman Homoerrotic love song and the lyrics of jingle bells to explain to who ever reads your junk that they where entertaining others who didn't want to go out in the snow durring the holidays. I think you need serious help and this causes for an intervention much like someone who has an alchool problem. Might I suggest you spend some time on a web sites like this http://www.healthyplace.com/ instead of trying to play god on a wiki that surrounds and online TEXT based zombie roleplaying game. I don't give a crap about what you post about me but leave the ZS logo and the Zombie Squad name out of it and leave anything to do with Zombie Squad alone. Zombie Squad in the game of Urban Dead and the real life organization has done more for people then your self proclaimed evil bastard mind can ever imagine. --Skeletor 19:01, 30 March 2006 (BST)

Let's just quit all the "it's a game" rubbish, that could so easily be turned around against you.--The General 19:38, 30 March 2006 (BST)
Skeletor. Kevan has far more important things to do that examine every single case of cheating in the game. As a result people in the game need to do a bit of the policing themselves. This results in people such as myself tracking down these offenders, digging up incriminating evidence, and posting it where others can see to completely destroy the reputation of cheaters and ensure thier swift execution at the hands of like minded players. Of course, using "its just a game" as though it excuses your actions is completely childish, as have been your outbursts thus far in this discussion. --Grim s 07:44, 31 March 2006 (BST)

Sigh... Well if this hasn't already gotten out of hand... Okay, so there are a few things that I would still like to point out regarding this debate. According to the wiki "to zerg is to create multiple characters (also known as Alts ) and coordinate them as if they were a single one. Zerging is a way of creating de facto super-characters. This behavior is considered cheating in Urban Dead. Anti-zerging countermeasures have been taken; zerg characters can be automatically penalised or deleted. Zerging technically refers to the use of multiple new throw-away characters. The zerg characters receive little or no maintenance and are often discarded after one use. Another form of cheating, more correctly called multi abuse, occurs when one player uses two of their own characters in tandem or to assist each other, rather than having the characters lead completely separate lives." The wiki then continues to list uses of zerg characters as combat mobs and sentinals. I personally fail to see how Skeletor falls under this description. For the sake of clarity in the allegations made against Skeletor, for your convenience General, I'd like to give you an idea of what brought Skeletor's alts to come to occupy the same building. One of ZS's Team Winchester's role playing missions was titled "Race for the Cure" in which our members of our team would race across Malton to specific checkpoints and eventually to the finish in Dulston. Skeletor set up one of his alts at each checkpoint to ensure that the racers were making it to each checkpoint and then finally to the finish in Dulston. Skelly also had one of his own characters in the race to use as a "pace car" so to speak. It was Skeletor's character in the race and the one at the finish that led them to eventually occupy the same building. After the race, we decided to stay in Dulston for the time being as the holidays were approaching and we wouldn't be able to carry out another mission until their passing. It was then that Skeletor fiendishly committed the henious crime of singing Christmas carols with his alts while we waited out the holidays in our temporary safehouse of Much Arms in Dulston. I would hardly consider this an offense worth the brash remarks made by Grim towards ZS.

Granted Kevan did state that alts should not occupy the same building. However, rather than just consider this an ultimate rule, I would rather look at this analytically. Kevan of course would not make such a statement without reason, this reason would be non other than to protect players from people who use their alts collectively to gain an unfair advantage. With said, I'd also like to make a note that Kevan initiated means to penalize players who do such things. I'm refering to the hit penalty, of course. I'd also like to state that its Kevan's job to punish those who break the rules, not Grim. According to the wiki, zerging is the use of multiple characters for one purpose. For Skeletor, there was no one purpose. You could try to make the argument that that purpose was to make silly in-game antics, but I'm sure Kevan would even find this laughable and dismiss this as completely harmless.

As far as lukehughes is concerned, he is officially no longer a member of ZS. The team forum passwords have been changed and he has not been told them. Personally, I was glad to see him leave as he didn't do much other than give ZS a bad PR. I would then ask of you General to disregard any information about him in your descision.

Also, Grimmy dearest, you are hardly in a position to offer an ultimadum. Recreating a page to denounce Skeletor would be nothing other than recreating the forum thread in which all of this took place. I however find that if you were to do so, it would be motivated by a personal vendetta against Skeletor as seen from said thread in which a photo of Skeletor's and his fiance were photoshopped to swap their heads and other juvenielle attacks were made. I forsee any attempt to create another page would result in nothing more than more editing wars and further arbitration. --ZekeThePlumber 20:33, 30 March 2006 (BST)

First of all, Zergings definition with regard to Urban Dead has stretched to cover all multi account abuse.
Secondly: Rules are rules. If you ignore them because you think they dont apply to your instance, they lose all meaning whatsoever, and are not worth the time they took to type. There is also the fact that Skeletor had a third account performing revives in an NT building 5 blocks away.
Thirdly: I am glad to hear LukeHughes has been expelled from the group. I would advise you to visit the Zerg Liste thread on the desensitised forum to clear up the matter of teh five ZS people being on the list, either confirming or clearing the peoples involvement in that activity. I much prefer to work with solid facts.
Finally: Zeke, the page in question is the Anti Cheater Alliance Page where the accusations and proof are laid out in a clear and concise manner against a group or individual (Except in the case of the zerg list, as this would make the page far too large. Instead, in those cases, the proof is provided as requested, usually taking the form of screenshots of peoples alts together, but occasionally forum posts where they admit such behaviour), and any challenges against the information set forth are done on the talk page, where the matter is discussed in a sensible manner by myself and the complainant. FYI, i did not approve of all the image manipulation there, and such behaviour only comes from the inhabitants of that section of the forum where the thread resided, and they are not in charge of it. Any actions of the sort will be deleted by myself in any case, and if it is done to the article page, it will be vandalism of the page and reported as such.
Oh, and it is nice to finally meet a person in your group who can write in a controlled manner. --Grim s 07:44, 31 March 2006 (BST)

Grim, can you provide all evidence that you have and then let them make counter arguaments against the evidence. I will then make the desicion.--The General 12:50, 31 March 2006 (BST)

Part of this is copied from earlier, with extra screenies added from the depths of my photobucket account. FYI: "Santa Claus" appears in a few screenies. One of the admins used a word filter on the site for a couple of days turning Zombies into Santa Claus.

Kevan in the FAQ: 

Am I allowed to play multiple characters?
You are, provided that they lead completely separate existences within the game - your characters should not collaborate, 
nor share the same building. Multiple characters found to be working together in a suspicious fashion will be automatically 
flagged, penalised or even banned by the system. If you're running a few characters, it's best to make sure that they stay 
in separate suburbs.
(If you're sharing a computer or workplace with other players, it's recommended that you don't work together too 
closely, as this may be wrongly interpreted as a single player using several accounts.)

As you may have noticed i used a bit of free time researching this. --Grim s 14:21, 31 March 2006 (BST)

I will give him a chance to respond before making the desicion, but I think that that is pretty damming evidence, really.--The General 15:12, 31 March 2006 (BST)

If it wasnt this strong i would not be arguing this forcefully to get it on thier page. --Grim s 15:42, 31 March 2006 (BST)
I will make a comment sometime tonight on behalf of ZS, I just need to wait till I have some free time. --ZekeThePlumber 20:25, 31 March 2006 (BST)
Ok, if I don't make a judgement immediately it's because i'm going to Wales and won't be back until Sunday evening.--The General 20:36, 31 March 2006 (BST)

Okay, I apologize for the tardiness but I do infact have a life outside of Urbandead, unlike some people ::cough grim cough::. But alas, I figure the easiest way to go about defending ZS would be to address each piece of Grim's pieces of said evidence.

  • Screenshot of two of skeletors characters in the same building. As I have already stated in one of my previous posts, Skeletor was using these two characters as NPCs in the Race for the Cure mission. Granted two of his characters were in the same building, he did not in anyway affect the game for other players. Labling this as Zerging is completely nonsensical.
  • Screenshot of Skeletor's post on the ZS forum which confirms the validity of my screenshot. First of all, this doesn't "confirm" the fact that Skelly had 3 alts in the same burb at the same time. He states "I think I have 3 characters in Dulston each doing something different." I'd imagine that if I were actively running 7 characters I'd lose track of their positions as well. However, Kevan says that its "best" if your alts occupy separate suburbs as long as they leave separate lives, not "mandatory" as Grim is making it out to be. Either way, you know two of them were simply goofing off for kicks thus not disturbing the game for other players. As far as the Ackland Mall incident is concerned, this was an event that happened far earlier in Urbandead's history before anti-zerging measures such as random spawning locations were instituted and zerging among zombies was a far greater problem. Skelly was simply trying to level the playing field against an overwhelming threat. If Skeletor were to be singled out for that, it would be incredibly unfair especially given the situation.
  • BB's Statement I'd like to make it a point that bigguyinblack is not a member of Team Winchester but a member of a different team in ZS. Therefore BB was not in Dulston at the time and his statement should have more accurately read IF you have multiple alts in Dulston. This statement simply comes out of despairity due to Grim and the other forum attacks sullying ZS's image over the allegations made against Skeletor. While I can vouch for other members of ZS, the only former member of ZS who used his alts together was Lukehughes, and that problem is long gone. Also, during non-mission periods unless ZS has a cause or another group/area requests help, their members will pretty much act independently of each other whether it be leveling up on their own or seeking others in need of help. As for this situation, Skeletor had told us that in the next mission we will need revive syrings, but left out the details of the mission as he often does for his own twisted fun. Stockpiling syringes was our general purpose for the duration of the holidays so if there were alts in Dulston at the same time, we can be confident that they were leading separate lives. I would still like to reiterate that Kevan has never said it was mandatory for alts to reside in separate suburbs.
  • The killing mentioned in the previous screenshot. All I have to say about this is: WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? Congratulations Grim, you've PKed Skeletor and you're trying to rule Urbandead with an iron fist only to beget further PKing and bad blood among groups. Why was this even put under evidence?
  • Screenshot of LukeHughs confessing to zerging. A couple things you should probably know about this thread picture before you make judgement here. Melanie has been a member of ZS Team Winchester for a couple months BUT she has been inactive longer than Lukehughes has been booted. Back when she was active she would only be active for a few days at a time and then disappear for multiple weeks. Even so, she has only been in two missions that I can recall from memory, one of which was one of the earlier missions and the second was the Race for the Cure. With this being said, I'd like to make it a point that her spectrum of view as to what ZS does and doesn't do is very limited. As far as I know, the only reason for her to make such a statement would be her exposure to Lukehughes actions and Skelly's use of NPCs in Winchester missions.
  • Enlightening comments by Skeletor about Zombie Squad I can't help but find this comment as misleading. Since it has been taken out of context, its hard to tell exactly what "it" is and whether "they" refers to Skeletor's teammates or "alts." However, I find it that Skelly is speaking hypothetically and doesn't actually confess to having done so. Besides, trying to spin this as a reflection on ZS still doesn't do your accusation any justice.
  • FWAPPing "A clear indication of collaboration with alts, even if not in the traditional sense," eh? This goes to tell you the complete harmlessness of what Skeletor has been doing. He was making jokes, big deal.

Well, thats done with. My head hurts and I'm exhausted so depending on what the General warrents I may or may not make a closing arguement. This will suffice for now. --ZekeThePlumber 06:27, 3 April 2006 (BST)


Regarding the first. Kevan explicitely states you should not have two of your characters in the same building. Skeletor did that. Even without acting in an attacking manner, such a presence would provide a meatsheild effect for other humans in the building, a meatshield that would absorb 40ap from a zombie with Rend Flesh and Deathy grip (Tangling grasp was not implimented at that time), 50ap from a zombie with only neck Lurch (A popular choice for lower level zombies), and 75ap from a newbie zombie with VM. None of these amounts are trivial to a zombie. I also sincerely doubt he wouldnt have barricaded were there a breach.
Regarding the second: His third account was ZS Communications located in the NT Building north of the Mall. I located that one, but wasd unable to terminate it due to the fact i lacked the ammunition. Also, I was aware of no Ackland mall incident. Did your group zerg there too?
As for the third. A whole lot of nothing, and again the claim that it isnt mandatory that they be in other suburbs. However, that is not the case. What we are talking about is thier presence in the same building, and that IS plainly written in the FAQ.
Fourth, i was just confirming the killing mentioned in the previous as a way of further reinforcing the validity of the third screenshot. If you dont like people backing up evidence, perhaps you should leave.
Fifth: Firstly: I wasnt the one who renamed the thread. Twas Petrosjko who did it. Secondly: He cheated, so we dogpiled him. Thirdly: It goes to indicate his attitude towards those who called him on his cheating and how he refused to consider two characters in the same building to be cgheating, despite it being spelled out quite clearly in the FAQ.
Sixth, Please re-read the first paragraph of it. Try it. Thats collaboration between alts, and Zerging.
Seventh: He clearly said he was doing it to piss people off. He was using multiple accounts together in the same building to do it. I dont see how that cant be collaboration. --Grim s 09:56, 3 April 2006 (BST)

Argh... I was under the impression that General would make a ruling after we both presented our case as dictated in the RULES OF ARBITRATION but since Grim would like to make a rebuttal to everything I have to say, I too would like one last comment. I figured this would have happened as Grim has sent me a message saying "I don't mean to rush you but..." Either way I would like to make a closing argument to point out the sheer absurdity of Grim's comment but will only be able to do so in about four hours as I have work in a few minutes. Until then. --ZekeThePlumber 16:16, 3 April 2006 (BST)

Ok, the desicion will be made after you have posted your final comment, all comments after that will not be considered.--The General 19:20, 3 April 2006 (BST)

Alright, once again I apologize for the delay but I would like to thank the General for being patient with me. Now, I'd like to start off by addressing Grim's fondness of using Kevan's FAQ as a means to prosecute Skeletor. While Grim has continually used the FAQ as a reference for his argument, I too will use it for a similiar purpose. As Grim has constantly reminded us about the use of alts: "You are, provided that they lead completely separate existences within the game - your characters should not collaborate, nor share the same building. Multiple characters found to be working together in a suspicious fashion will be automatically flagged, penalised or even banned by the system." You may ask what my purpose is in bringing this up in argument but what I would like you to focus your attention on is the statement that "Multiple characters found to be working together in a suspicious fashion will be automatically flagged, penalised or even banned by the system." Since Grim has based his argument around this FAQ and considers this an iron clad rule, this statement is ultimately infallable. However Grim, has made continual claims that Skeletor's characters have been working together BUT if that is true then why has Skeletor's characters not been flagged, penalised, or banned as the FAQ states. This leaves several possiblities: 1) Skeletor's characters were never working together even though they were found in the same building, 2) Skelly's characters were never found to be working in a suspicious fashion, or 3) Kevan's FAQ is infact fallable and should not be interpreted literally. Personally I would prefer a type of laissez-faire interpretation of the FAQ, so to speak. Rather than interpret the rules as panultimate, I'd like to look at what Kevan is trying to protect by initiating such rules. Obviously Kevan intended to protect players from people who abuse the freedom which Kevan grants them in this game to gain an unfair advantage over the another group, whether it be humans or zombies. Objectively, Skeletor has not gone against the intention of Kevan in creating these rules.

Grim's argument that the presense of an alt in a building provides as a meatshield for other characters I find to be rather weak. In addition to having been a member of ZS, I also have raised a zombie to level 36 independent of ZS. Infact, they don't even know of the character's existence but would probably recognize it as one of mine for obvious naming trends among my characters. And quite frankly, when I break into a building and start attacking survivors I could care less who I attack when attacking either ZS Beastman or Skeletor666 will still bear the same amount of XP. Infact, when I break into a building I'd be more than honored to have numerous "meatshields" in the same building; Hell, the more the merrier. May I add that meatshields tend to not be very effective when you can choose your target when you attack. Regarding your assumption that Skeletor would barricade if it was breached is completely irrelevent to your argument as 1)Dulston was a human controlled suburb with a human controlled mall to further quell the zombie threat, 2) Much Arms was a low profile building not warrented to have organized attacks on it by zombies, and finally 3) Much Arms was considered a ZS safehouse by the fact that our members contribute to ensuring its safety by keeping the barricade as high as possible. Skelly's characters probably didn't even need to barricade with all the other ZS members there.

As far as the Ackland Mall incident is concerned, if you were to look at Skeletor666's profile URL you would notice that the number at the end of the URL is roughly 6000. In case you were unaware, this number represents the numerical order in which the character was created. Given the fact that originally players were allowed to create 5 characters a day with an IP limit of 500, it would be safe to assume that Skeletor was one of the first few hundred people to start playing the game upon its release. During the begining of UD problems of zerging among zombies was a huge problem as people could chose their starting suburbs and it wasn't uncommon for zombies to overrun subburbs at a time. Skeletor was merely fighting back against a force with what he could when there was little to do against overwhelming odds, before ZS even had an organized Urban Dead group. I firmly believe this event was far in the past and UD has evolved far beyond this as a game, thus having no bearing on the case at hand.

Lastly, Skeletor's use of the anacronym FWAPPing is merely an attempt to represent words for the 2 letter p's as a way to lighten the atmosphere of the accusations made against him. Skelly's choice of "piss people off" is used under the sense that he would be offending people by making homoerotic displays in public places such as malls. This by no means should be interpreted as pissing people off by messing with or abusing the mechanics of the game. You should be aware of the jovial nature of Skeletor when he tries to amuse his teammates ingame.

In hindsight, I find that the nature of this arbitration has changed from its orginal purpose and has seemed to turn into Skeletor vs Grim S rather than Grim S vs Zombie Squad. However clearing Skeletor's name is just as relevant in this matter but I would still like to point out that the entirety of this matter was that if Grim's comments about ZS were justified despite the fact that ZS and Skeletor are not the same entities. Either way, I await your descision General. --ZekeThePlumber 01:58, 4 April 2006 (BST)

It will take me a minute to re-read all the evidence but I would just like to point out that Skeletor's characters were probably penalised, but as he was not searching or attacking he probably would not have noticed.--The General 08:13, 4 April 2006 (BST)
Could you please leave a message on my talk page when you make your decision? --Grim s 06:00, 7 April 2006 (BST)
Ok.--The General 10:14, 7 April 2006 (BST)

I would like to ask zombie squad why they are so opposed to having this on their page, and I would also like to ask Grim why he is so insistant that it should go on their page. I find it an incredibly minor point that shouldn't really matter to either side.--The General 10:14, 7 April 2006 (BST)

Personally, i want it there because people cheat so often and get away with it that if for once people who got caught were blatantly exposed and branded with it for life, it may serve as a deterrant to others considering the same actions. --Grim s 15:52, 7 April 2006 (BST)

Right, I have made a temporary desicion. Grim may add the allegations to the Zombie Squad page but they must be strictly NPOV and say that certain members of the group were caught zerging and that Zombie Squad no longer supports zerging, it must not be a personal attack on Skeletor. I will be checking up on it to make sure that it is not made into a personal attack. As I said this is a temporary desicion and is subject to change pending answer to my question.--The General 21:16, 9 April 2006 (BST)

General to answer your question as to why I personally don't want Grims additions has been stated previously. 1.) Placing inaccurate and unfavorable vocabulary on our teams wiki such as Zerging turns away potential new members. 2.) What I was “caught�? doing wasn’t cheating nor does it effect the overall game of urban dead 3.) It was only me that had 2 characters singing to each other and if Grim wants to brand the entire team of Zombie Squad “for life�? as a cheater because my sole actions makes no logical sense. 4.) We as a team do not wish to have historical information on our wiki to clutter it and merely want to use it as a gateway to interested parties to find out general information about our organization, the real life Zombie Squad organization, and the team within the game of Urban Dead. Grim even states he is trying to "make an example" of me but the only example he is making to other players is to not role play and not have fun.--Skeletor 05:42, 11 April 2006 (BST)

I don't think Skeletors characters being in the same place warrants a label of "zerging". I was more thinking of the group member who was caught zerging and was expelled from the group. Out of interest, is there a place on the page where you wouldn't mind the information going?--The General 19:29, 12 April 2006 (BST)

I once again direct you to the in game FAQ on the subject. --Grim s 09:38, 13 April 2006 (BST)
Yes but I don't think that warrents labeling an entire group as zerging.--The General 19:42, 13 April 2006 (BST)
That was never my point. My point is that they condoned such behaviour by tolerating it. Skeletor is a Leader, if not the leader of the group, and his actions reflect on the group. If a leader commits an action, the group (Since he makes the rule) officially condones it, even if each individual player does not. --Grim s 06:54, 14 April 2006 (BST)

Looking at it all, the desicion is that text is to be added to the page saying that a member of the group was caught zerging and was expelled from the group. I do not consider Skeletors characters being in the same place a warrant for labeling him or the entire group "zergers". Zombie Squad may make one comment to suggest a different solution, if they wish.--The General W! Mod 13:50, 17 April 2006 (BST)

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