User talk:Grim s/Discussions

Discussion betweeen Seventythree and The Grimch

• keep - Its funny and really not worth all this fuss. It certainly doesn't merit some of the offensive and provocative responses above tho. However 1) creationism is taught in schools, its under religious education because science deals in evidence not belief. 2) The bible does attack womens rights, i can get references if you want but frankly i would be suprised if you were not already aware of them! --Honestmistake 17:20, 29 August 2007 (BST)

• Of corse I am, but bear in mind that my comments where not realy aimed at the bible, or christians as such, merely the people who use their so called "faith" to impose their hatred on others. THe ones who twist religion to suit their own desires. And they do attack women's rights. And the rights of everyone to actually think for themselves. I think this is where mine and Naikill's little dispute has started. A simple case of misunderstanding, which, I am pleased to say we are both working on a solution to.--Seventythree 21:02, 29 August 2007 (BST)

• I have seen bits (most) of your discourse and frankly if it wasn't for the fact that he seems a reasonable person my response would be far more offensive! I whole heartedly support Naikill's right to believe whatever the hell he wants and his right to proslytise, however I also defend everyones right to question his beliefs and poke fun at them! Frankly if the truth of those beliefs are so easily discredited it is a service to those believers to make them give carefull consideration to them! Creationism is frankly nonsense as it cannot explain solid evidence away.... that however is not to say that ID may not have some merit! This however is a game forum and religious arguements cannot but turn to rancor so are probably best left alone. --Honestmistake 23:35, 29 August 2007 (BST)

• Of course Nalikill is still mostly wrong (as dinosaurs prove) but as a supporter of evolution i must point out that (as far as survival of the species is concerned he has a point about gays :D) Kiss, Kiss, Hug, Hug ;)--Honestmistake 23:40, 29 August 2007 (BST)

• Well, that might have had an implication on the survival of the species when there where, like 4000 humans around, or on a tribe that lives on the edge of catastrophe that needs every member it can get, but nowadays? Nah. I gotta disagree with anyone who says that being gay isn't ok.--Seventythree 23:49, 29 August 2007 (BST)

• ID is just Creationism wrapped up in a brand new wrapper. It throws people for a minute, then they see how fucking stupid it is. If we were intelligently designed, why do so many peoples eyes suck? Chronic masturbation? How intelligent was it to have the nerve web that picks up signals from our retina on the inside surface of the retina? (Basically, the light has to pass through it to get to the light sensitive cells. This is also what leads to our blind spot. Another creature, the octopus, has an eye that has evolved almost exactly the same, but with the nerves on the more intelligent side). How about ectopic pregnancy? Lots and lots and lots of terrible engineering in our bodies. ID sucks and is wrong from the get go. Fucking edit conflicts. --The Grimch Sysop-U! 23:52, 29 August 2007 (BST)

• What I don't get is why some christain groups are so againgst evolution. Surely if God is all powerfull then She/He/It has just been using evolution as a tool to create people and the world? that makes far more sense to me.--Seventythree 23:56, 29 August 2007 (BST)

• Doesnt work like that. Look up just how many serious design flaws we have in us. They are stupid designs. We have too many teeth, for example. Our pelvis is still set in the shape needed to be a knuckle dragger, and our upright posture is the result of a bend in our spine. The Testes develop inside the body, and then migrate outwards, leaving at least two weak points. Congenital defects. Geeze, i would be ashamed to call myself any kind of designer if i had done the human race. I certainly wouldnt admit i had done it. --The Grimch Sysop-U! 00:02, 30 August 2007 (BST)

• Maybe we're not perfect, there's genetic defects, sure, and eventualy your own body will probably turn on in itself, and the human psyche is deeply flawed, we get angry too quickly, are all too eager to follow the herd ect. But maybe that's the point? A bit of a challenge, you know? Like, if a divine being can create humans, flawed as they are and gently guide them to being better than they are designed to be then that's the whole point.--Seventythree 00:12, 30 August 2007 (BST)

Well, that certainly rules out omnibenevolence... not taht the problem of evil hadnt already. --The Grimch Sysop-U! 00:27, 30 August 2007 (BST)

• good and evil can only ever exist in people, because we have the potenetial for both. Basic argumet, I know, but true. Also can be seen to explain the necessity for a devil figure. God and the devil are representaitons of good and evil, but as god (apparently) cannot commit evil, and the devil cannot commit good neither are actualy good or evil.--Seventythree 00:33, 30 August 2007 (BST)

• I find people who believe they can make anything true by defining it so it is true to be silly, and weak on the subject of actual debate skills. Saying good cannot exist without evil is silly, as there is no way to quantify either, and it is quite easy to visualise a world where people are physically incapable of considering evil, though it would require some changes from what we have now. I find that the very fact i can imagine a world where the "good cant exist without evil" rule is false, i undermine the entire attempt to define it in such a way. People also try to define free will as the ability to choose between good and evil, but thats also stupid, as all free will implies is the ability to make a choice, the outcome of which is unknown by any entity until after the choice, and regardless of those choices arbitrary moral status. No, the whole devil thing is merely a scapegoat created by religious leaders to blame the less likable aspects of the world, and human nature on, rather than accept that their gods are fallable. You will notice that in polytheistic religions, there was no real concept of a devil. There were individual monsters, spawned by one god or another in a game between them, but there was no evil maniac living underground. Have a look at Hades for an example. --The Grimch Sysop-U! 04:21, 30 August 2007 (BST)

• I was under the impression that we where discussing western abrahamic religions, but yes you are right, panthaeic gods are a lot more interesting! The greek gods for example don't seem to exist by any moral code, and routinely commit acts of terrible revenge and great kindness almost simaltaniously! You could consider the development of the evil in monotheistic religions as the creation of another god, in a way. After all, most monotheistic gods seem to represent good, almost wholy, and people do require an explaination for evil, and whoops! only one god! So they create another (less powerfull) divine being to represent that. Another interesting point to note is the creation (or rather adaptation) of the old pantheonic gods into new rules. This is uslualy done by the creation of divine beings more powerfull than humans, less powerfull than god. The jews and christains have angels, the Muslims had the Djinn (and also angels I beleive). The new angels take on the roles of the old gods, For example the angel Michael takes on the aspects of Hermes, god of medicine and travelers. Anyway, much as I am enjoying this conversation, It is getting rather long! Maybe we should transferr it to one of our talkpages?--Seventythree 18:50, 31 August 2007 (BST)

• my thinking is simple. acording to hardcore christains, god knows everything right? so god must know the future. if he knows the future he knows what someone is going to do. which means the future must already be set. so everyones actions are already made. so how can god judge someone over something we have no control over?--'BPTmz 19:19, 31 August 2007 (BST)

You've just put your finger on the entire free will vs determinism debate, there. --Seventythree 22:48, 31 August 2007 (BST) Actually, the concept of Djinni were around in the area pre-islam, and were picked up and absorbed as the Islamic people moved into the area. It is part of how religious develop. They steal good ideas from other traditional beliefs, or other compatable religions for theor own. It also helps with the conversions of others to your beliefs (You can see a similiar change with Christianity moving into europe, and running over the Greco-roman belief system. Read Dante's Divine comedy for an example, hell, you dont even need to, just look up some excerpts and you will see how much of an influence those religious had at the time, though now those influences have somewhat died away). In any case, my divergence onto the case of Polytheism was to show that the concept of evil as having a force behind it has not always existed, and that it is relatively new on the scene. As for the argument Blood Panther povided, that is indeed the case, though a great many people argue that the illusion of choice from the perspective of the person making the choice is enough. I find this to be utterly preposterous myself. It is an illusion, not an actual choice. Anyway, Omnipotence and Omniscience are mutually exclusive. How? Can an Omniscient god, in his omnipotence, find the power to change his future mind? --The Grimch Sysop-U! 23:37, 31 August 2007 (BST)

• You certainly can see the absorbsion of pagan faiths into the christan faith, such examples being the winter solstace festivals being repalced with christmas, lughlanassad being replaced with whichever saint'sday it is in august (I forget which) and Sahmain (pronounced souween, apparently) replaced with all hallow's eve. Personaly I don't realy beleive that people back in the dark ages where any more or less supersitious or religious. BAck then the church was jsut another landlord who you had to pay fealty to once a week. Some of the groups in the christian and abrahamic faiths have maintained that god is omnipotent only with relevance to human understanding. Others maintain that there is some masterplan that god has laid out, that only (s)he knows. And as for your comment on the illusion of choice, that illusion is very real indeed. If you think that you made the right choice, or the wrong choice, regardless of whether you did, or not you still made that choice. A hypotheical situation: You are told that you have an incurable deziese. (this is hypothetical). You have been kidnapped by some wacko doctor, who offers you the cure (and your life) in exchange for you presing a button which will kill someone. The button, of course does not kill anyone, you are merely shown faked images of someone dying. In a very real way, alt least to you you have commited murder, even if it was just in your head. You had no way of knowing ot was a setup, does it make it any less of a crime jsur because there was no real victim? The intent was there, after all. Look up the work of a man called Stanley Milgrim (a psychologist) who experimented with just how far the average person will go just becasue someone in an authorative position told them to. --Seventythree 17:30, 1 September 2007 (BST)

• Um, Omnipotent according to human understanding is powerful enough to do anything, regardless. Thats kind of a strange way to say exactly the same thing in an attempt to weasel out of something. And omniscience pertains to knowing absolutely everything about everything, including your thoughts, feelings and opinions way in advance of even your birth. You run down the direct line of history, and while you may perceive choices down the line, because your future is pre-ordained, you have absolutely no choice in how you think, or feel, or act. You are a mindless automaton marching to a tune set eons before your birth. This has absolutely nothing to do with your analogy, as, unfortunately for you, there is an actual choice present in your example, rather than there being no choice at all, and just a perception of a choice. Remember, how you feel about it is also pre-ordained by the omniscient being. How you think has also be done, Thats what it means. All knowing. If there is an omniscient being, humanity is utterly blameless for all its sins. --The Grimch U! 00:07, 2 September 2007 (BST)

Hm. Well, there are some who argue that your psyche, soal, personality, whatever the hell you want to call it, that little peice of you that is you is formed mostly from your memories, all of which are formed from your choices, and the choices of others. If they are controlled by one being, then sure, It is all the fault of one god. This is essentialy my problem with a lot of christian thought. Not most, but some have this idea that somehow everything can be blamed on god or the devil, and god will sort it all out in the end. Imagine if you are some (let us say for sake of argument) semi-omnipotent being (one that does not know all that will happen ever, let's rule out determinism here, for now). YOu've just created these little buggers, called humans and set up an elaborate little trap to get them to accept free will ( a five-year-old could see the apple tree thing coming) and then all they do when they're turned out into the big wide world to grow and change as people and then a whole bunch of them start turning round going "God! God! Make it better!" "please god, you're so wonderfull, can you sort this all out for us please!" Anyway, my main beleif is that whatever you personaly choose to beleive in, bhuddism, christianity, socialism, neopaganism, wiccan, islam, judaism, taoism, humanism whatever the real point of it all is to come out of it all a better person than you came in. I like it when peoples beleifs help people to do it, and I hate it when people use their beleifs as a crutch to advoid developing any real conscience of their own. THe entire point of all those commandments and everything is to provide a starting place for people to develop their own morals and ethics, apply them and live by them. The most sensible commandment of any religion I have ever seen, is bizzarely enougth the wiccan and pagan commandment. They've only got one, and that's just "do what you want, just don't hurt anyone" --Seventythree 01:58, 2 September 2007 (BST)