UDWiki talk:Administration/Policy Discussion/Civil Conduct Policy

Retroactivity

The first thing I want to say is that this isn't an attempt to get Iscariot banned for his previous actions, even though he is the reason I brought this up. I don't think this should be retroactive. --_Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 01:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Do we really need this? UDbullies aren't so bad. And not only that, but this case you referred to looks like it's going to get Vandalism anyway. See, the system is gold. D^ANCED^ANCER^EVOLUTION (TALK | CONTRIBS) 04:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The reason I brought this up is the fact that the TOS isn't exactly clear on what's "offensive", and as of right now, there's no easy way to deal with people who exist on this wiki simply to harass people. Unless they're going about it in a way that does constitute vandalism, they're not going to go through A/VB, and the fact that there are so many Not Vandalism votes in the Iscariot case makes me wonder if lesser cases would even be punished by A/VB at all. Which is why we need something like this in place to cover these types of cases tht aren't clear-cut. --_Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 04:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

There's also no easy way to deal with people who exist in this world simply to harass other people. Consider the wiki a training ground. When you get a job and have to deal with douchebags for 8+ hours a day for the rest of your life there won't be an option to institute a civility policy. Who would decide what's civil and what's not, anyway? Why not just eliminate the stupid fucking suggestions page? You should be able to use crucifixes as weapons? Really? You know what else would be sweet? Sniper rifles! Let me get a couple of those over here. How about a skateboard? Or an X-wing fighter? Nunchuks? --Paddy Dignam 04:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The suggestions page is not the only reason we need something like this. We've had potentially offensive content flame wars break out all over the place in the past.--SirArgo ^Talk 19:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

You'd probably be fired. Unless you mean customers, in which case: 'tuff. :)--  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 19:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Then what needs to be done, Blue Command Vic, is to define what is considered so offensive as to violate the TOS. As much as I feel for you and want people to be civil, I cannot support creating such a policy. As Paddy Dignam says above, there is no such policy in real life. You need to learn how to deal with it or ignore it. --Maverick ^{Talk - OBR 404} 18:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I think, as in REAL life, that tons of cursing and other applicable things should be frowned upon...

And no, I don't feel like signing.

INVISIBLE TEXT. HELLO FELLOW INVISIBLE TALKERS. WE SHOULD HAVE AN ENTIRELY

SEPARATE DISCUSSION IN INVISIBLE TEXT!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The shoemaker (talk • contribs) at an unknown time.

I would be very, very cautious about "hard and fast rules" for civility, because then you will have people doing specific actions that are hostile and offensive but not against the rules as written. In fact, many conduct cases against people like this end with them saying "you cannot point to the rule I broke, so this is baseless," while at the exact same time they will patiently look for any infraction of the written rules (even mistakes made in good faith) to bring cases against others. So be careful with rules, because the people you want to punish will just find the loopholes, then use the rules to force the admins to punish others. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 06:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Be careful about this

While I do believe that we should have something like this for many reasons, one being I know of a few people who have actually been driven away from the wiki due to the amount of offensive stuff on here, I don't know how exactly to define it. Some, and I am definitely not one of them, people may be offended by the amount of swearing that occurs here but I know no one would be happy if that got taken away. I think if this is to be wrote it should just cover basic things such as severe and blatant racism or sexism and other personal prejudices. I also think that we would need some different type of escalation for this thing to work out right, as someone who is about to be escalated from a week ban to a month ban may not necessarily deserve that from a breach of this policy.--SirArgo ^Talk 07:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

We need a harassment policy, not a civility policy. Harassment would include attack images, attack pages, and petty A/VB cases. --– Nubis ^NWO 15:18, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Read below. This is exactly what a civility policy is. Civility is a desired user conduct, Participate in a respectful and considerate way that if turns into harassment, may result in blocking. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 19:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

No

A civility policy would simply create armies of rules lawyers, getting people VB-ed for small things - such as saying something that might be uncivil. Likewise, since breaches of this policy would be open to interpretation, the bias of the sysops would come into account (creating heaps of drama, if recent events are to go by,) and their personal opinions (I, personally, didn't find Iscariot's comments offensive at all - but my lack of religious views could come into account.) Finally, it's hard to get other groups to "respect" each other - especially if they are at war in game - look at all the snide comments against the Mall Tour now, and the Umbies thing last month.

If we have to pass this, I would much rather Argo's one above - leave it to blatantly offensive comments (although I wouldn't really like that too,) and not overly open to interpretation. The thing here is that it limit's people's views - I, personally think that one should be civil while expressing them, but I'm not going to force that view on others (except in extreme cases.) Likewise, in a computer game with three well-defined sides', many (read:trenchies) won't respect their enemies. This would just lead to useless drama. Linkthewindow  Talk  08:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

My little peice

Maybe just a big NO to the racism thing, but then again how could you tell? Good point to bring it up thou. Vandalism will happen, I've done it and probably a lot of users have at some point, good disscusion aswell.--Athur birling 11:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

No

Because if I want to call Darkmagik a cock-mongler every time I associate with the prick then I want to be able to.--Suicidal Angel, Help needed? 01:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes

Wikipedia:Civility. Many wikis have civility policies and they seem to work well. Why not here? I think this is something good to point out in Wikipedia's policy:

A pattern of incivility is disruptive and unacceptable, and may result in blocks if it rises to the level of harassment or egregious personal attacks. A single act of incivility can also cross the line if it is severe enough: for instance, extreme verbal abuse or profanity directed at another contributor, or a threat against another person can all result in blocks without consideration of a pattern.

This policy is not a weapon to use against other contributors. To insist that an editor be sanctioned for an isolated, minor offense, or to treat constructive criticism as an attack, is itself disruptive, and may result in warnings or even blocks if repeated.

You can't really wikilawyer if it requires evidence and patterns of abuse (talking links here). And frankly, wikilawyering to get someone banned could result in earning one yourself. Anyways, what I'm trying to say here is that we should use Wikipedia's Civility policy adjusted to our specific needs like so many other wikis do. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 19:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. This is kinda what I was getting at with my post above. Most wikis do have a policy like this that works quite well for them all, but I don't know why we never created one.--SirArgo ^Talk 19:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Can we still call each other fucktards and douchebags if a civility policy is implemented? If not, it's going to get real boring around here... Seriously, though, I don't see a problem with this: A pattern of incivility is disruptive and unacceptable, and may result in blocks if it rises to the level of harassment or egregious personal attacks. Threatening another person can result in blocks without consideration of a pattern. --Paddy Dignam 19:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Just as long as it isn't offensively directed at someone, ex "fuck I screwed up" or "you're a poop head". --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 19:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

If we actually move forward with this, we must be on guard that we do not confuse good grammar and spelling for civility. Just because they start a comment by saying "With all due respect" or something doesn't mean they are being civil. ~ extropymine ^{Talk | NW | 4Corners} 21:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I like this idea, and Paddy has a point, too. I'm not above calling a fucktard a fucktard, as long as he actually is a fucktard. Or if it's jokingly said, of course. Borrowing Wikipedia's policy and adapting it for our use is a great idea. _Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 20:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

First, IMO, you should be able to curse in general. Cursing is fun and the wiki doesn't need to be Brainstock. "I'm so fucking tired today" and "my computer is so fucking slow" should be allowable, always. Second, "Paddy, you're a fucktard and a douchebag" should be allowable as long as it doesn't demonstrate "a pattern of incivility". So if you routinely call me (or others) a fucktard, etc., then that's a pattern. If you say it once or twice in the heat of battle and over the course of a few months, whatever. "I'm going to kill you, motherfucker" and "maybe I'll come over there and fuck you up" should never be allowed, and it's got nothing to do with the curses. Vic, I think it's kind of funny that you're pushing a civility policy with an "Iscariot should just shut the fuck up" template on your user page. --Paddy Dignam 22:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I just don't like the fucker. I think he's here solely to cause drama and stir shit up, and it's a policy like this that would aim to curb his tendencies. Again, I like where your head is at on this. Swearing is fine, I've got no problem with it either, but when it becomes harassment, and a pattern of general asshole behavior, then something needs to be done. _Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 22:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, as I have said before swearing should be allowed! I even think things like "You stupid fuckhead" "hey you dick-cock-fuck-shit" or any other combination of swear words used to insult someone should be allowed, as long as it's not occurring in a clear pattern against someone or is used in a threatening manner.--SirArgo ^Talk 22:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Pretty much already implied in our A/VB guidelines, see assume good faith. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 22:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The problem with the A/VB guidelines is there aren't any provisions for patterns of harassment and overall douchebaggery. If they're not actively vandalizing the wiki, there's nothing A/VB can really do. And that's the problem. Vandal Banning doesn't cover people that make good edits, but act like assholes everywhere else. _Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 22:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I mean AGF in terms of the usage of usage of swears, or mess ups "everyone makes mistakes, both behavioral (like personal attacks)..." So you're not going to get banned for a single outburst. So if someone was consistently using personal attacks or harassment, then they could be warned/blocked regardless of their contributions. As long as it's bad faith, which harassment and personal attacks certainly are. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 22:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Either way, whether it's a seperate policy or an addition to A/VB, it needs to be spelled out. _Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 22:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 23:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

This looks pretty good, especially designating incivility as extremely harsh statements and/or multiple instances of harassment, personal attacks, etc. --ZsL 01:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

This is really fucking daft

. --Cyberbob 02:01, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

If you have problems with people herting ur fellings then the system you should be looking to reform is Arbitration. Everyone's been moaning about it for ages but nobody's actually gone and done anything about it; you'd all be much happier if you simply perverted A/VB instead. I guess it's easier. --Cyberbob 02:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Easier, yes, but still incorrect. And this will probably end up passing by a bunch of people who really should just go back to Neopets.--Suicidal Angel, Help needed? 14:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how you can pass judgement on a policy that isn't even written yet. You don't seem to understand that the policy is only supposed to put stop (through warnings, bans) in severe cases. We're are a gaming wiki after all, so it can more loose than Wikipedia. The policy won't bar you from swearing ever, or the odd attack (labeled out in Wikipedia's policy, which I hope will be integrated). You could call Darkmagik "a cock-mongler" just don't make a habit of it. The policy should be designed to stop the petty harassment (which won't be solved via arbitration, you should know Bob) and incessant personal attacks, not turning the wiki into Hello Kitty online. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 17:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

"just don't make a habit out of it"

That right there is why I would be against this. Darkmagic is someone who has harassed and annoyed an entire forum worth of people and was subsequently banned from the place, especially after he threatened it's users multiple times. He caused a lot of people grief and I still am upset with him. If I want to make fun of people that deserve it on a constant basis, then I will. This policy is a bad idea no matter what form it's in, because of the chaos it will end up causing in the end.--Suicidal Angel, Help needed? 18:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Alright, if you want to be selfish, then so be it. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 18:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Darkmagic is a fucktard, no doubt about it. But if a policy along these lines--A pattern of incivility is disruptive and unacceptable, and may result in blocks if it rises to the level of harassment or egregious personal attacks. Threatening another person can result in blocks or bans without consideration of a pattern--had been implemented in the first place, then wouldn't said fucktard would have been booted immediately for little gems like this: "Innsulting me is a reason People DIE"? Is there anything in current wiki policy to the effect of: A pattern of incompetence and/or deliberate spamming is disruptive and unacceptable, and may result in blocks or bans if it is considered egregious by the wiki community? --Paddy Dignam 19:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

People have gotten banned for spamming users here. This would just be another example of disallowed harassment really, you can still insult people but troll voting and the like may lead to bans in the futures, which is all this really does.--Karek^maps?! 22:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

It may also encourage a behaviour change, knowing a civility policy exists now. --  AHLGTG THE END IS NIGH! 23:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't see anything on the Vandalism page regarding "willful incompetence and/or deliberate spamming". Maybe adding that bit would cut down on Darkmagics?? --Paddy Dignam 23:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Spamming was ruled vandalism last month. Linkthewindow  Talk  03:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

No

Some rules need to remain unwritten because a whole lot of BS comes out when they are mad official rules --Imthatguy 02:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Second drafts

Since it looks like the discussion is going well, here's an idea I had. If you'd like to write your ideas for this down into a draft, put it in a third-level heading under this heading. Under that, a fourth-level heading for discussion on your draft. Put them under the examples, I'll just delete those later.

Draft by Paddy Dignam

I basically ripped this from Wikipedia and tried to make it less sensitive and precious:

The civility policy is a code of conduct stating that users on the Urban Dead wiki should always treat each other with consideration and respect, and, even during heated debates, they should behave reasonably and courteously in order to keep the focus on improving the wiki and maintaining a fun work environment. This policy applies to all editing on the wiki, including user pages, talk pages, edit summaries, and any other discussion with or about fellow users.

Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness, and aggressive behaviors that disrupt the wiki and lead to unproductive stress and conflict. Differences of opinion are inevitable in a collaborative project, however, and personal definitions of incivility differ from user to user; therefore isolated incidents, including incidents involving the use of profanity, are not in themselves a concern, nor are they punishable. A demonstrated pattern of incivility, however, is disruptive and unacceptable, and may result in blocks if it rises to the level of harassment or egregious personal attacks. Threatening a user on this wiki will not be tolerated and may result in blocks without consideration of a pattern.

This policy is not to be used as a weapon against other contributors. To insist that a user be sanctioned for a perceived slight or an isolated offense, or to treat constructive criticism as an attack, is itself disruptive, and may result in warnings or even blocks if repeated. --Paddy Dignam 23:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

On second thoughts, this isn't so bad, as long as we limit it to extreme cases of personal attacks (ie: extremely racist, sexist, or homophobic,) and not just someone saying "You are an idiot" a few times during a heated debate.

That said, I'm still afraid that an "extreme personal attack" may become defined as less and less extreme over time (ie: the "slippery slope.") One thing to remember is that Wikipedia isn't really the best comparison - our community is a lot smaller (all the regular contributors know each other,) and it's a wiki for a game with three sides - there's always going to be a small amount of hostility between the sides. Linkthewindow  Talk  00:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I've got no problem with using a toned-down (read: less strict) version of Wikipedia's policy, as long as we can somehow maintain that same level of strictness, and make sure that we're able to distinguish between "severe" and "everyday" hostilities. you're always going to have some level of incivility in a game, like you said, but we need to set an upper threshold, even if it is racism, threats, etc. _Vic D'Amato__Dead vs Blue_ 02:35, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

The trouble is that defining an "extreme" personal attack can depend on the subjectivity of the sysops. For example, Iscariot's comment (which started this,) wasn't too offensive to me, but I'm an atheist myself. Likewise, although some threats are obvious (such as "OMG IMA GONNA FUCKING KILL YOU!!!!,") what about "I wish your mother aborted you"?

I'm starting to think that we may need a very conservative "civility" policy - only banning attacks based on discrimination (racism, sexism, etc,) and threats. However, this will be based on the subjective interpretation of someone (be it the sysops, the "public" or a new class of people,) and their views can come into account of what's "offensive." Linkthewindow  Talk  03:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Example 2

etc etc etc

Discussion of example 2

blah blah blah